I know what you mean. It's pretty stark the way they deal with serious issues like miscarriage, divorce, alcoholism from that period to the immature and often embarrassing way they deal with them 2000+ and on.

>>153271304
Do you think the Comics Code Authority had to do something with it? Because before they had to be tasteful and kinda dance around the censors. Then after it was Rape 'O Clock every other issue in the 00's.

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Partly because they had civilian lives and jobs and friends and supporting casts with whom to talk about adult things. Now the dialogue, and cast, is pared down to bare bones cape speak exposition in service of furthering the plot.

>>153271071
>From the 00's onwards they act like overgrown teenagers. Has anybody else noticed this?
Either a misguided attempt to appeal to teenager or the writers are just manchildren.

>>153271401
Yeah, they came up on comics only, and like, cereal mascots, so it's a feedback loop. Whereas the best writers, shit even the jobbers, of years past at least read *some* books or watched *some* cinema etc to inspire a wider breadth of storytelling.

>>153271392
Now everything is therapy speak and food.
>>153271401
The manchildren answer sounds the most probable.

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>>153271071

>>153271445
People don't convey life experiences in fiction anymore, It's all memberberries now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg-qaeIcuyI
>Member Spider Slayers?!?
>Member The Champion of The Universe?!?
It's all self-cannibalism.

>>153271071
One of the main things I hate about 00s and on comics. Everyone talks like a redditor.

>>153271512
Writers now forget that fiction is a window not a mirror. So much rampant narcissism in our culture now.

because writers can only write the trash they know. its why so many stories in comics now have strong gay and trans angles. its why we have penis compatibility scenes in comics now as if thats comic book hero stuff. writers write what they know and so many only know this modern stuff wrote. hence why you dont see good straight stories as the taking over the industry and removeal of people who could fucked it. same in games and other things. the ones who took over cant right anything but their lifestyle and they arent more than 2% of the planet. not even insulting just explaining why things changed so hard in comics. and modern writers also werent raised to talk about things like adults just be passive aggressive and make lame quips and bad jokes to cope.

>>153271616
Everybody having the same voice/personality is a major problem these days.

>>153271401
EVERYONE are manchildren. People talk like that in real life now too. It's just a reflection of the culture.

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>>153271304
I don't think the serious issues were handled well before, I think they were just as often on the nose when it came to them. These issues were done in pretty blunt ways and people in letter pages complained about them too. I think the difference in a lot of ways is tone towards the audience. In the modern era it feels somewhat cringe in intent.
00s felt very, we are MATURE see how MATURELY we are handling this MATURE book.
In some ways this attitude felt very:
>We are performing in a reactionary way against the 90s and trying desperately to be relevant.
Whilst in the 10s it was:
>Very comedic, very tumblr inspired, very person talking to themselves heckin' yikes patronising.
Pic related is Hulk making a pretty blunt political position on Israel/Palestine. If it was done now the intent would be the same but the tone would be a lot worse.

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>The irony of them wanting comics to be more mature but ending-up more juvenile than ever.
Good ole Impact VS. Intent.

>>153271616
>Everyone talks like a redditor.
For me it is the:
>Buffy and Joss Whedon dialogue infecting every Millenial's brain when it came to writing, everyone having that ironic/post-ironic type drawl to everything they say.
In the 2010s it is:
>tumblr blog posting patter.
>YASS QUEEN SLAY Ru Paul Drag Queen type dialogue.

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>>153271690
>00s felt very, we are MATURE see how MATURELY we are handling this MATURE book.
It's like Nolan's Batman it takes it self so seriously it loops back to being hilarious.

>>153271742
Joss knew when to turn it off and be serious.
Now everything is Bathos.

>>153271815
People say that and yet, Joss eventually flanderised his own style a bit and I think Age of Ultron came across worse because of it. The serious moments fell flat in that movie. When every single character has to behave like the cast of Buffy. Even for Joss it can be hard to make things serious when your style is too over encompassing.

>>153271854
Yeah he went too far in that, The movie is exhausting to sit through even with all the action. The editing was really wonky and didn't help Black Widow's emotional scene at all.

>>153271071
I was going to say everyone noticed that, but the odd thing is the reversal of reception if anything.
When comics had stronger writing than now the public considered them for children and immature losers, when comics became childish, immature and satirical the public began to ironically embrace them, in all senses of that phrasing.

Though to be fair it's possible it's less a matter of social decline and more that said comic reading children grew up to positively influence the generational view of comics regardless of the change in writing.

>>153271717
>The irony of them wanting comics to be more mature but ending-up more juvenile than ever.
Whilst not a comic, the best example I can show for this effect is Avatar: The Last Airbender.
>ATLA is clearly a show for kids but can be enjoyed by the whole family.
>Fun world building, fun cast of characters and mostly simple morality tales/adventure type storytelling.
>And yet, the show even touched upon shit like genocide.

Then we get to The Legend of Korra:
>Purposefully built towards a more mature audience.
>And yet.. every single theme was subverted.
>How are non-benders treated? Doesn't matter, the bad guy is a secret blood bender. How do the spirits conflict with the modern world? Doesn't matter, dark avatar time. What about archaic regimes? Doesn't matter. Fascism? Fuck that, let us throw in a giant mech.
>The show filled itself with petty drama and romances.
>The showrunners talked to and reacted to people on tumblr when it came to the development of the show.
So a literal kids show could discuss genocide within its constraints and become a well loved and regarded show. But a show purposefully for older audiences had to undercut every potential theme for cheap twists and romance subplots. The conflict in the first season ended with a neoliberal status quo of, oh we just added two extra representatives for the council. How mature..

The lesson here seems to be that constraints led to people creating interesting ways to discuss heavy topics whilst the airs of "maturity" for many people involve what they see as fan service with twists and romance for a certain audience over anything of actual substance.

>>153271929
The public haven't embraced comics now. The public has: embraced the IPs when it comes to movies. And embraced other industries such as manga because they don't have the same cultural baggage as comics. Part of this is just the general infantalism in society, everyone from Simon Pegg to Alan Moore has talked about this effect. Nostalgia, consumerism and late stage capitalism. Nerd culture is consumerist central.

Leaving this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h1wnATNXJY

>>153271384
No, it really just has more to do with some people, particularly at Marvel at the time, acting like manchildren and writing what they know

Other times it's because of what >>153271742 said. People forget how much of an influence Whedon's Buffy was on a lot of the up-and-comers in the 2000s

>>153271939
It's Art vs Artifice.
One is an experimental search for truth and expression, The other is propaganda.

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2000's Marvel is the literal definition of "The inmates are running the Asylum."

>>153272101
Anon, that comic was never meant to be taken seriously as canon for how Doom or anyone else acts and it is bizarre that people post it out of context. Heck they even donated money to 9/11 funds at the time. Plenty of better examples.

>>153272138
Like what?

>>153272154
>Bendis

>>153271690
And Hulk's take on it sounds extremely retarded too, you can only assume whoever wrote it doesn't even know Israel is a western colony planted in the middle east very recently by geopolitical standards (specially assuming this comics is from around the 80's), so literally "just share with the aggressor raping you" either that or some very tame zionism

>>153271815
>>153271854

The problem is Iron Man became the most popular character of the MCU thanks to RDJ's wit and quips many of which were improvised (almost the entirety of Iron Man 1 was improved when RDJ was in a scene, with the other actors keeping up). Their solution was "make everyone quip like Iron Man" which doesn't work with every character

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>>153272169
Hey that's cheating!

>>153272077
I don't necessarily think it is all propaganda. For me a big part of it is structure in what makes something satisfying.

Romance shipping and cheap twists can surprise an audience and get you buzz online but it is not substantive. And yet, people confuse that obsessive part of the audience with something substantive. Companies make these kinds of mistakes all the time. The arcetypical is often of substance but they refuse to follow this, partly on the basis of politics but also partly on the basis of nitpickers attacking tropes. Tropes are seen as bad and not foundations for a story.

The Mandalorian Disney+ show was setting up a rather basic and trope filled plot of Mandalorian becoming a reluctant leader to his people, getting the darksaber etc. But then in season 3 they returned back to Clone Wars/Rebels plotlines and destroyed the natural arc that had been made to force back in the character of Bo Katan. Now perhaps, some of this is politically motivated, but then it is also motivated by this obsession with lore and connections that some parts of the online audience seem interested in, rather than naturally proceeding with the character and situation as presented.

In both examples the silent apathetic majority, the people who want substance, an arc, even if trope filled, to maintain their interest, are left out of proceedings whilst people obsessed with lore, connections, cheapness are instead given top billing. Rather than propaganda I somewhat feel like this attitude is driven by the online world, by instant feedback, by bubbles and how that has made anxious and neurotic people.

>>153272182
Jessica Jones pretty much only got raped because Bendis is a huge fan of Avengers Annual #10 which recontextualised Avengers #200 as rape.

>>153272180
Marvel had a fine formula of: strong characterisation (strong, not necessarily accurate) + forgettable villain (obvious exceptions) + humour + some serious moments. Iron Man in many ways was pretty much experimental and helped Marvel later got bought by Disney. Iron Man feels positively serious compared to some later entries too. There is nothing wrong with the wit and quips style but you need characters to play off against it and you need some serious moments. But they constantly forgot about the balance.

>>153272263
Play the Orson Welles homage clip!
>>153271564

>>153271071
>I've been reading old comics from the 80's mostly and my biggest takeaway is how these characters used to act like fully functioning adults.
this is something in TV, movies, and music as well. after the 90s everything got hyper aware went the other direction. very little is done in earnest. everything from affection to sentimentality is handled like "uhhh, yeah I guess. ummm.. hug?" as if adults are all awkward teens. no more adult contemporary anywhere, no dramas that dont have retarded adults in them with muh epic mental problems, no maturity in cartoon characters, and yes Im talking about marvel cartoons. overall society has been infantilized and dumbed down. it sucks and even something as silly as a chuck norris movie has tons more normalcy in terms of its characters than the modern streaming show. its like the jew writers in hollywood went full on toddler and write like morons.

>>153272321
Came here to say this. I'll add that I think the success of Buffy the Vampire Slayer is what really kicked it off. Everyone started trying to mimic Whedon writing.

Because the writers went from Boomers and Gen X who were full functioning adults, to Millennials who act like overgrown teenagers and now it's even more embarrassing that the majority of Millennials are in their 30s. Even the youngest Gen Z act older than the oldest Millennials.

Gen-X's irony poisoning has infected everything.
Plus add in a dash of troll's remorse into the mix.

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>>153271384
>Then after it was Rape 'O Clock every other issue in the 00's.
Do you want to know what happened? The 90s crash happened. I think it is hard to describe what the 90s crash was really like. 50% of more of the shops closed. American comics were no longer seen as a great American past time. It killed the culture. At the same time the best manga was being imported as well as Japanimation (anime). Video games were becoming massive. Traditional trading cards died but newer card games were becoming big. So imagine your industry dies just as all this stuff is becoming big.

The meme of the 90s is: comics are all Image shit, ultility belts and bad anatomy aka 90s eXtreme. So you look at what has been well received, even outside the comics world, namely the Watchmen, the British Invasion, the Vertigo, the stuff that is more mature and relavant. All this work needed to be built on top of. Expanded. Improved. But the industry was not in a state to do so. So the industry instead just cannibalised such work. Namely where we get grimdark and other things from. To call it realism would be an insult to realism.

So they take this life boat of relevancy post crash, that previous mentioned work, get a bunch of indie writers into the industry, market these guys as "superstar writers" in complete antithesis to the "superstar artists" aka the Image guys. If people think the 90s was all style no substance and those Image guys helped create the crash, well now we have substance. Now serious shit can happen.

I don't think there is anyone you can necessarily pin point the whole blame to because this whole situation was a desperate attempt to make comics work. And the thing is: it did work in the 00s, until the methods they used (pic related) eventually fucked things over with the backlashes in the 2010s.

>>153272381
>I'll add that I think the success of Buffy the Vampire Slayer is what really kicked it off. Everyone started trying to mimic Whedon writing.
Already been mentioned several times ITT

>>153272468
It can't be overstated. Put on an episode of Babylon 5 and an episode of Firefly back to back, and you'll never be able to unsee it.

>>153272418
>Even the youngest Gen Z act older than the oldest Millennials.

Not in my work place

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>>153272505
Hey JMS did plant the seed of proto-Reddit Peter that Slott took the ball and ran with.

>>153272321
>very little is done in earnest.
I always think about a film like Scream, the meta awareness of tropes and being in a horror movie, as a good example. You've seen it all before but if we acknowledge that we can take away that guilt of the repetition. It is that sense of ironic enjoyment. You know something you're watching is trash and a guilty pleasure but if you acknowledge it is trash you somehow take away that insult. Meta awareness has really infected a lot of fiction. To plays devils advocate: I would say that I understand why, because of the internet a lot of people now have very selective suspensions of disbelief in a way that makes things hard to do without acknowledging some absurdity in a situation.

>>153272452
> Bad word of mouth is still work of mouth. Any attention is still attention.

We really need to stomp that out because that's the major problem with both the industry and society in general. I don't know how, but it needs to stop. We need to make things and people that are publically know as total shit something people want absolutely nothing to do with where negative press can kill something flat out

>>153272522
JMS could still write characterization worth a damn. Slott is 95% bad writing with little understanding or care for anything he's doing.

>>153272569
The way I see it is if it really were true that Marvel is doing well because bad word of mouth is still good for them, they wouldn't have needed to rely on constant relaunches, incentive variant covers and dropping their guaranteed issues from 10 down to 5.

I was watching old clips of The Incredible Hulk & Spider-Man live action show with my older brother (He's 52) & he couldn't stop laughing and it got me thinking maybe Superheroes are just a different kind of Clown to certain type of person?

>>153272452
I would read Rape 'O Clock.

>>153272418
>Gen X who were full functioning adults,

If you think Gen X was only made of full functioning adults you didn't pay attention to anything

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>>153272569
That attitude of Brevoort's perfectly explains Marvel's position in the 00s. And to some extent, it did work in reversing some of the 90s fortunes. But they should have stopped after that. The problem is of course that eventually it did cause burn out in the 2010s, which Brevoort and others still didn't full acknowledge in many ways. At one point in 2017 after the disasterous Secret Empire/Hydra Cap and with multiple Marvel heroes being replaced, comic shop owners shouted at Marvel officials at a convention, David Gabriel, VP of publishing, admitted diversity didn't sell but later backtracked his comments. But the reason why they can't fully acknowledge it, is because many of these gimmicks still work. Krakoa era X-Men was a huge hit for them, for instance. Galvanising people works in the short term even though it causes longer term issues. In many ways a lot of the issues of comics goes back further. The 1980s created many mainstay gimmicks that haunt us today.

>>153272672
>Hillary lost better make Cap into a Nazi!

>>153272672
>But the reason why they can't fully acknowledge it, is because many of these gimmicks still work. Krakoa era X-Men was a huge hit for them, for instance

Krakoa was a hit at first, because Hickman has his fans and people were interested in how this new status quo was going to go. What the Krakoa fans don't acknowledge is that Krakoa was doing badly in its final year to the point that comic retailers were complaining about declining sales.

>>153272733
Worse than that, they did the reveal months before the election
They had every indication that they should've just ended it sooner but doubled down and went full speed ahead

Comic a massive medium that shouldn't be generalized in discussion shouldn't be define by their eras but as individual works.

>>153272733
Half of it was just to better push Sam Wilson as Cap even though people were rejecting that.

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>>153272781
The best selling American comics sells very little, this is not a big medium.

>>153272781
I remember way back in the day Blowshimselfupdude said it was better to follower creators than characters.

>>153272846
*To follow.

>>153272833
There's over a million comic titles that have been printed through the decades also I wasn't talking about sell, I'm not a investor I don't care how much a title sells as long as it sells enough to keep going.

>>153271717
Who’s getting the worst head?

>>153272881
Ben. How do you suck on a rock?

>>153272846
I can agree, it's better to just read what your interested in and ignore the bullshit, it's that simple.

>>153272546
It's like a teenager telling a nine year old they're more mature than them. Ultimately, both are immature in the grand scheme of things. You can say the one person is immature for participating so earnestly in fantasy and romance, but you could also say that the person who is incapable of engaging with a story with out the plausible deniability of meta fiction to preserve their own self image is equally immature in a different way. Maturity is engaging with the romantic idea fully but understanding that it is play and should be temporary break from the day to day of the real world.

>>153272833
Is that really what you thought they meant by massive

>>153272873
>>153272925
The comics medium is relatively small as compared to other mediums and the American industry can absolutely be generalised in many different ways in the trends and behaviours it operates under. Nothing you've said contradicts my position. Aside from the impact of some IPs, comics still just isn't taken as seriously as many other things and we can absolutely see trends in different eras.

>>153272546
>a lot of people now have very selective suspensions of disbelief in a way that makes things hard to do without acknowledging some absurdity in a situation.
Autists complaining really ruined a lot of fiction.

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>>153272970
>Autists complaining

>>153272970
Look it's The Escape Pod Podcast!

>>153272915
>but you could also say that the person who is incapable of engaging with a story with out the plausible deniability of meta fiction to preserve their own self image is equally immature in a different way. Maturity is engaging with the romantic idea fully but understanding that it is play and should be temporary break from the day to day of the real world.
This really is the quintessentially description of the midwit meme. Idiots and intelligent people understand things fine but we are dominated by the midwits.

>>153272970
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kV70sUKMVk

>>153273019
What?

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Punisher is the only thing that aged well during this period.

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>>153271071
I think this sort of applies to a lot of things. When I was younger, characters who were meant to be adults seemed so much different. So far removed from how kids were. Spider-man, even when he was on the ropes was focused on far more different things. 60s Pete felt like he had to grow up real fast.

>>153272620
Slott does not give a fuck about characters he uses them as vehicles for cheap ideas.

>>153273055
This was traced, wasn’t it?

>>153272672
>comic shop owners shouted at Marvel officials at a convention,
For real?

>>153273055
Unlike that waitress, who abruptly aged 50 years in the last panel.

>>153273084
>60s Pete felt like he had to grow up real fast.
Having read the Dikto era recently, this is basically how I felt regarding Peter's character. I dunnl if its me, but I felt like he was more in his element inside the Daily Bugle than in High School.

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>>153273030
That video is weird it is just generalisation vs generalisation somewhat, a miscommunication.

I think that the attitude of some fans is, I have read all this shit (or more likely wiki'ed it) and therefore I know more and I am better. I see this attitude in people who "read the book before seeing the film". That is an attitude complaint more than anything. People wanting to feel like their knowledge is the same as intelligence. But his point about being lost in translation can happen. I think people hyperfixate on some modern changes whilst glossing over some poorly thought out ideas in the past. If you read all the comics you can get "lost in translation" because things have radically changed, there isn't a fixed position aside from your favourite interpretations. You should understand that shit changes all the time and being hyperfixated on specific changes seems like a dumb position when nothing has ever fully made sense.

Continuity should not be a straitjacket preventing anthing new from being told but neither should it be so loose that the illusion of things mattering evaporates. It is always a balance. That isn't to say, you can't criticise specific changes, you absolutely can, but being obsessed with some minute detail and ignoring others has just created a type of fan that every creator hates. And the double down of modern media is often a reaction to the specific autism of modern fans. I think a lot of creators hate the fans because of specific types of fans. You'll probably misunderstand this post, but I just think that video isn't a good analysis of either position, just some other clickbait.

>>153273084
I feel like the working class vanishing from comics had a hand in this, the life experiences the writing is based on have changed

>>153273142
Yep. Some questionably sensationalized reporting but
https://bleedingcool.com/comics/heated-scenes-marvel-retailer-nycc/

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>>153273142
>>153273142
https://www.comicsbeat.com/nycc-17-retailer-outrage-at-the-marvel-retailer-panel/
>After Bigoted Santa Claus’s continued tirade about Iceman being gay and Captain America being black, Nick Lowe countered that “There are Marvel characters for every kind of fan.”
>Another retailer took up Bigoted Santa Claus’s charge and continued to loudly blast Marvel for “Black Cap,” “Female Thor” and “Homo Iceman.” Marvel promptly shut down the panel at this point.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/apr/03/marvel-executive-says-emphasis-on-diversity-may-have-alienated-readers
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/apr/04/marvel-comics-diversity-sales
https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/37152/marvels-david-gabriel-2016-market-shift

David Gabriel, who was at the time VP of Publishing and said those diversity doesn't sell comments, has recently been fired by Disney.

>>153273172
Double empathy problem?

>>153273222
Now what the fuck is that?

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>>153273222
Perhaps. I mean it is also an issue with casual vs hardcore fan (which could also be a similar issue) or anything else in fandom that people misunderstand. Fan identity has become wrapped up in modern pushes of identity politics, as well as modern consumerist pushes of fanatical consumerism.

>>153273262
Breakdown of communication between autistis/non-autists being a mutual issue, not one sided.

>>153273262
Both autistic and non-autistic people can find it difficult to empathize with each other. The fact that both people in the interaction have trouble understanding and empathizing is why the theory is called the "double empathy problem".

>>153273164
He was more proactive and driven. It felt like he was really working.
>>153273204
I don't think a lot of modern writers know what it was like to have a real job. They're all kind of spoiled it feels like. It honestly really gives the sense that they don't know how to deal with anything.

>>153272957
>as compared to other mediums
>as many other things
>trends
So you didn’t know what words mean. He’s talking about the breadth and variety of the stuff that goes inside the comics. The kind of information a comics board could stand to generalize less in discussion and get real autistically curious over the details of instead. You go in the opposite direction by trying to fix that to the idea of massive as relative to an external standard. He’s right.

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>>153273290
>Fan identity
This is another issue I think we have with modern writers. Like if you take the example of a character who was a "nerd," back then being a nerd meant your were smart and studious to the expensive of other things. But now "nerd" means you're basically a fanboy. Peter Parker wrote science reports and got good greats while Kamala Khana writes fanfics.

>>153273312
>real job
All jobs are

>>153273315
>He’s talking about the breadth and variety of the stuff that goes inside the comics.
The problem is a lot of American comics do not have the kind of breadth and variety you're talking about.
>The kind of information a comics board could stand to generalize less in discussion and get real autistically curious over the details of instead.
I absolutely believe /co/ is infested with outrage tourists who come here to complain and not read comics. But the truth is as a comics reader I have trouble even trying to get people to read things because it is hard to get people curious over the details because of the overall issues.

This is a medium absolutely defined by certain things that mean that generalisations are unfortunately apt no matter how we try and fight it. Many of the best comic works people describe are only as good as the context and the era they were created in, aka, they were good because they were everything that other comics were not, they excelled in their difference by comparison. You cannot take things out of that vacuum as much as you wish.

>>153271384
>Do you think the Comics Code Authority had to do something with it?
No, it's just the style of writing by Xers and early millennials who want to write eveything in a "relatable" way but most of them are bad to do that in a way there it comes off shit. It worked in something like Gwenpool where the whole point of the character was that being an immature self-absorbed womanchild wasn't a good thing and something she needed to grow out of. But then you have writers like Mariko Tamaki who just see writing superhero comics as some form of therapy or self-validation.

>>153273442
I've been starting to feel that the harder the writer tries to make their characters feel "relatable" they less they succeed unless you're in some hyper specific situation. Maybe older books weren't as drastically relatable but I feel like they were better at being empathetic. You didn't have to relate to Batman or Spider-man to feel for them.

>>153273487
It goes against how heroes are constructed. Ideally, relatable real world human elements are explored through the hero's cast of characters. For example, the cast or the Daily Bugle or the students at ESU for a Spider-man publication. These characters are meant to bring the common human element to the superhero's operatic life. As these characters are sidelined to give the heroes more screen time it's means that writers are putting the mundane directly into the hero. A little is fine, but too much waters the hero down. The modern method of writing heroes seem unrelatable because heroes by the very nature are more than human because we expect more of them. Essentially, modern writing of heroes doesn't feel relatable because that is not how we see ourselves when put in the position of being a hero. For example, when people think of themselves as Batman they don't think about having a good time with the Wayne family fortune; they think about being vigilant, standing on roof tops, ready to protect the city at a moments notice.

>>153273999
>Ideally, relatable real world human elements are explored through the hero's cast of characters
The cast of characters or human elements that they occasionally stuff in almost always feel forced now. Daredevil has recently been relaunched. Daredevil #1:
>Matt is now teaching law at ESU (haven't we already had characters like Peter Parker be teachers for a while?)
>He talks about banning tech in his classroom, cue debate with a student about how he is a hypocrite becase he uses assistive tech and they need tech, bit of cringy dialogue but he uses it as a teachable moment about contracts.
>The new teacher comes in the room and he gets into a weird flirting argument, they are teaching law but have tattoos and look more English lit/creative writing that law.
I already know where a lot of this will go and I don't find any of this situation or characters that interesting. Every single modern side character is entirely disposable, has nothing to say, there is nothing real or human about any of it. I feel like they lost the ability to use soap opera drama and replaced it with stuff that is just flat.

>>153271620
That is an excellent way to put it, art is falsely treated like it's not a vacuum and must always reflect the author in every way

>>153273999
You ideas are appealing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter

>>153273999
For how many is being a superhero their job with their primary social group being other superheroes?

>>153274135
True, there is a general loss in writing ability. But it's, also, worth considering that modern writers just do have any interest in putting forth the work to write a cast of characters. Just do the bare minimum with a handful of characters and cash the paycheck. You get the same page rate whether it features 1 character or five characters.
>>153274201
To be fair, what did you expect from a generation of writers who were told that Steven King makes money treating his books as his personal psychologist?

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>>153274135
>Forgot pic

>>153274481
Why would anyone put the work in to write a cast of characters only for the next writer to kill them off in a harsh way. That is more an editorial issue for me, that every knew story just wipes away everything else.

I agree and I sorta dissagree,
In the 60-70s you had good books, but also shit like daredevil or Ironman soap opera, you had Happy being a wifebeater ,some shield agents chimpout because Tony fucked Madame Masque, Foggy and Harry seething for something inocuous that Peter/Matt did.
Amd 90s has people trying to write like Alan Moore( I remember Loeb first supreme issues and were hilarious bad with the hero's voice)
But even then, I think Quesada/Millar/Bendis fucked a lot more with the "we are adult" comics

>>153273084
>>153273164
It's why I dislike Brevoort's insistence that youth is the theme of Spider-Man and not responsibility

Despite Slott's insistence that they ignored that advice, post-OMD Spider-Man feels like it takes it to heart whether unintentionally or not. It comes across more immature than prior Spider-Man comics

>>153273108
Unfortunately, outside of Parlov, that Punisher run had a bunch of tracers.

>>153273219
Based.

>>153274711
>It's why I dislike Brevoort's insistence that youth is the theme of Spider-Man and not responsibility
I've never heard that, when did Brevoort say that?

To be honest this is something that has always bothered me. Peter leaves High School in The Amazing Spider-Man #28 (1965). He graduated college in The Amazing Spider-Man #185 (1978). So for most of his existence he has been a young adult. Even in the 90s cartoon he was at ESU. In the Raimi movie he graduated part way through. But then we hit this weird barrier. In Ultimate Spider-Man comics I don't think he ever left High School. In Amazing Spider-Man films he took one film to graduate. In the MCU films he took like three films to leave High School. Many recent cartoons have him back in High School.

This perception of, Peter needs to be in High School and be super young has massively persisted. And the direct end result of this "youth is the theme" is Miles, is having a perfect replacement ready to go. But all Miles can do is copy Peter. And all people want is a Peter going through life they can relate to, he doesn't need to have everything go right for him but fuck they can't seem to think about what a normal young adult goes through so have to fuck it up.

>>153274801
>I've never heard that, when did Brevoort say that?

https://tombrevoort.com/2019/12/25/blah-blah-blog-youth/

>>153274850
I've read that twice and I still think, like sure, youth is a theme but what are you trying to do here Tom apart from defend the constant shit writers pour on the Spider-Man line to defend their poor writing.

>>153274707
To be fair, Jasper's weakness being his lack of experience with romantic relationships was established early on, and he did realize he screwed up. But Happy's being a jerk suddenly including for Pep working when he met her as a career woman already was awful. The two were pretty designed as a unit.

>>153274414
For that kind of thing you'd usually read the team book but for the main guys like Captain America or Superman their lives would be in their main title.

>>153274588
>next writer to kill them off in a harsh way.
I don't think this is SUCH the issue people think but there does need to be some better focus on long term commitment to books. We've had decent sized runs in the recent pass but a big issue that still comes up is decompression. A 50 issue run might sound impressive but when it takes you five issues to tell a story it's not the feat it sounds like. A comic from the 70s could, in one issue, have Peter Parker deal with Aunt May, JJ, the villain of the book and set seeds for the future.

>>153276146
>I don't think this is SUCH the issue people think
For me the main issue is tone, it represents a kind of spitefulness. When someone creates something and works it in but before it can be interesting or developed it is used as fodder for villain of the week or whatever. It represents a kind of cheapness.

In a way, comics stories have always been sort of cheap. But it is the illusion of things mattering that keeps people coming back for more. But nowadays the multiplication effect of bigger and bigger threats and so callously removing shit, completely shatters that feeling of anything matter.

Sure, that cast or place may not be great now, but it may represent unrealised potential or something else to be used or worked. But now it is thrown so quickly in the bin.

>>153271071
Not only that, characters were much better wordsmiths back then. I read the original Infinity arc with Thanos and people like Thanos and Mephisto and Adam Warlock are almost Shakespearean sometimes.

>>153271071
>From the 00's onwards they act like overgrown teenagers. Has anybody else noticed this?


That's just what happened to society too (bottom text.)

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>>153276576
It's funny, back when comics were more ostensibly for kids it felt like they were talking up to their audience. Later on when it felt like they were more toward adults they felt like they were talking down. There's this interview with Stan Lee, in it he talked about how comics were a great learning tool to get kids to like reading, which was certainly true in my case. Stan said that kids would either understand from context, which was good, or they'd look it up, which ain't bad either.

But honestly even beyond that there was just so much more sincerity. There was real pathos. Beyond vocabulary I think exposing kids to this kind of often tragic story telling really helped develop the mind. The ability to think and reason.

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Just extended moments of genuine humanity throughout

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Can you imagine modern X-men having this kind of conversation?

>>153276692
This brought a tear to my eye.
Thank you anon, I miss feeling things.

>>153271071
Well the writers used to be actual mature adults & not the whiney teenagers who never grew up that make up the roster of current writers

>>153276692
I don't think people can handle breath of emotion and tone anymore. I used to see serial shitposters for unrelated things on other boards complain about Mother 3 and Sonic Adventure 2 all the time. I wish I had a better example but it like people's brains cant into bright and colorful sometimes literal cartoony characters having seriousness, gravity and emotion.

>>153276872

OH and fucking Kingdom Hearts. People shit on me so much for liking Kingdom Hearts, and shit on the whole thing so much. And you probabaly will all too. But the last game made me cry because you go to purgatory and watch a bunch of people die. There was a new mother who died close to childbirth, and a kid who thought she was playing hide and seek but really was walking into the afterlife. And it was fucking beautiful. The music, the world, and the dialogue. And its fucking vaguely /co/ related because goddamn Mickey Mouse and shit.

>>153272569
>Bad word of mouth is still work of mouth. Any attention is still attention
I wonder if any of the marketing gremlins at Subway said this after the Jared story broke.

>>153276975
Kingdom Hearts is retarded for reasons unrelated to the Mickey Mouse stuff.

>>153276872
>Sonic Adventure 2
>>153276975
>Kingdom Hearts
Look it's not that I don't agree with you. I do think people have a hard time accepting moments of genuine emotional sincerity.... but really? Those are the examples you want to run with?

>>153276975
They dont shit on you for liking it, they shit on you for putting shallow emotion-bait on a pedestal. Your post is the equivalent of of calling the McDonalds dollar menu a triumph in cookery. I like the sloppiest factory paste as much as the next knuckle-dragger, but what makes you extra retarded is that you think it isn't the lowest common denominator of story telling.

>>153277077
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eli8jWVwZks

>>153277275
No see this works because ultimately it's just a father trying to reach out to his son. It's a nice moral that applies to a lot of people. It is not I'M THE ULTIMATE LIFE FORM ANGST BECAUSE A LITTLE GIRL WAS KILLED BY COMMANDOS! And whatever the gay fuck was going on in KH.

>>153274850
>>153274946
Well he also put together a manifesto that influenced OMD and BND and he still clings to it so he's too far gone. He's a tasteless faggot that just needs to go and be humiliated until he lets go.