>>25216919
People who use commie buzzwords like that are a privileged class of midwits too dumb to know they're privileged.

>>25216919
The Marxian use of the term makes less sense than the incel use of it (alienation is when you wageslave so that sexhavers can have sex on your behalf while you remain a depressed virgin)

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>>25216919
Yes. In fact you will see hardcore chuds repeat Marx almost verbatim without even realizing it.

Anyways, he more or less says a worker is alienated when he:
>does not own the product
>does not direct his own work
>has reduced capacity to perform free creative work
>is related to other people as economic rivals rather than as cooperative creators

>>25216947
Because Marx himself isn't necessarily left-wing. You can hold all his opinions and still be against feminism, multiculturalism, etc., which is what the left actually is.

>>25216954
>the left is the new left

>>25216947
>>25216954
I don't hate Marx per se, but Marxism is more or less better taken as an ethical practice rather than some kind of dogma to adhere to

>>25216919
>Was Marx right
No. /thread

>>25216964
Marx's entire philosophy is built on class-interests rather than individualism

>>25216967
yeah he was left. what a retard

>>25216947
>>does not own the product
>>does not direct his own work
>>has reduced capacity to perform free creative work
>>is related to other people as economic rivals rather than as cooperative creators
That's ironically all true about the economic systems of the so-called communist countries with the last point just replaced with "socialist emulation"

>>25216985
sounds like they weren't very communist according to Marx, then.

>>25216976
ethics isn't always individual centered though.

>>25216993
It's individually performed

>>25216994
yeah but see, there's this thing called society....
humans don't live a vacuum.

>>25216919
Alienation is the only thing Marx is universally agreed to be right about, even by anti-marxist academics

>>25217065
That would be historical materialism

I really need the septic tank digging company to be free to perform creative work. Backhoe ballet.

>>25216919

He was mostly right about alienation. Think about how you are surrounded by 100s of commodities in your own house but are completely alienated from the people whose labour made those commodities.

Concurrently you are also alienated from the people who use the commodity your labour built.

Only under capitalism is it possible for a man to live in a two room apartment. Have no social connections whatsoever, just go to work, make money, consoom and repeat.

>>25216947
Nobody gives a shit about any of that. What a stupid criticism. He ended up being wrong about literally everything.

>>25216919
He was prescient enough to understand that things like "justice" are claptraps used by the bourgeoisie to trick the masses but he still fell for Hegelian tripe such as "alienation". He dedicated a whole book making fun of other Hegelians but he never escaped the Hegelian prison.

>>25217140
>He was mostly right about alienation. Think about how you are surrounded by 100s of commodities in your own house but are completely alienated from the people whose labour made those commodities.
Who cares? Why does that matter at all? I've never thought about that once in my life and it couldn't matter less to me
>Concurrently you are also alienated from the people who use the commodity your labour built.
Again, I could not possibly care less. So what?
>Only under capitalism is it possible for a man to live in a two room apartment. Have no social connections whatsoever, just go to work, make money, consoom and repeat.
No, that's possible under any miserable system. And has nothing to do with economics. That's a social problem (not caused by economics, unless you want to argue the West pre ww2 was not capitalist.)

Alienation is probably the weakest part of Marxism, it's completely nebulous and unquantifiable
the idea that backbreaking, monotonous labour will somehow become fulfilling because you now "own your labour" is really kind of just silly

>>25217194
>I've never thought about that once in my life
I didn't either until engaging with Marxist thought pointed it out and it became obvious to me.

>Why does that matter at all?
As long as man is alienated from society he will always be subject to alien forces he himself cannot understand. Call it God, call it fate, call it free hand of the market. Alienation won't tell you why your boss laid you off, but it explains why you don't understand the forces that decide your fate.

>No, that's possible under any miserable system. And has nothing to do with economics. That's a social problem
Economics itself is social. Capitalism induces alienation by replacing actual human connection for economic activity with market exchange of commodities and money. This alienates people from each other. This is the only reason you can live the life of a social recluse and just work and consoom without forming genuine human connection. This was not possible in any other time in history or any other system.

>>25216919
He was right pointing it out, except that it's a good thing. I don't want to "identify" with the products of my labor, and I don't want economic exchanges to be bound up in the personal, like in some primitive tribes where everyone knows you, what you like, what your habits and your hang-ups are, or among peasants that would lynch you for being atypical.
"Alienation" is, contrary to Marx' armchair seething about it, a move away from the animalistic state that needs immediate relation to everything, to the properly human, as in the realization of higher reason.

>>25216919
Alienation is literally what chuds and incels bitch about all day long.

>>25217324
Liberals getting attached to their alienation is something I predicted. What I did not predict was one self aware enough to acknowledge that.

In any case, you will never not be an animal. You will never not be a social creature. Essentially you will never escape your species being.

I think it was in "The German Ideology" where Marx criticises the false constructs born from "higher reason" , like the "egoistic MAN"

>>25217286
It should be no surprise that the unfalsifiable parts of Marx's corpus are the only parts that can be salvaged and put to use elsewhere, rescued from their progenitor's invalidation

>>25216991
based manifesto reader

>>25217355
>In any case, you will never not be an animal. You will never not be a social creature. Essentially you will never escape your species being.
No, one will never escape, but distancing or, if you prefer, alienating ourselves from it is what we have been doing since the beginning of civilization and all its "unnatural" institutions, like bureaucracy, currency (an abstract medium of exchange), writing, formal schooling, formalized judicial procedure (instead of gut-instinctual mob punishment) etc etc.

There's a thing all shithole countries have in common, namely the very non-alienatory nature of their corruption: one can always come to "an understanding", one can always, in a very comfy and human way, bend the rules in exchange for money or favors.
It takes some autistic insistence on rules and formalities to build a thriving society, in other words, it takes alienation.