>>28963783 EFI's ability to control how much fuel (and when) it goes into each cylinder individually instead of a carburetor just continuously pissing fuel into the intake for all of them to suck in as they start their intake strokes is one of the rare things that is actually better for performance, fuel economy, and emissions all at once rather than making one or two better but hurting another.
>>28963807 >just continuously pissing fuel into the intake Nah air moves the same, when the sucking cylinder's intake valve shuts, that air bounces off and goes back to the plenum unless you've got a multi carb setup with no plenum then you get this. https://youtu.be/4zHxzHEs14k (mist of fuel in the intake)
At least for high power applications efi is just straight up better as it's a more precise control of fuel delivery. A singe or twin carb setup on a big boy vee ayte for example might see inconsistencies in fuel delivery, one cylinder might get more than another one, there may be lean spots and whatnot. Sure you can rectify this by running for example 4 twin barrel sidedrafts like weber DCO carbs, but it's starting to get more and more complicated and expensive than just sticking 8 injectors and a megasquirt system to the engine.
>>28963826 This hit so close. Got an audi 80 with the k-jetronic system and looked into getting webers but found a polish company that makes EFI kits that are so much easier.
>>28963783 Cause it's fucking awful technology that made cars unreliable as shit for decades. How often do you hear a car unable to start and someone cranking on it these days?
>>28963783 Unreliable and a pain in the ass to tune and they always go out of tune over time unlike efi where your tune is fixed and adjusted in tables by the ecu. They leak fuel if they're old and they suck at holding idle
>>28963831 Yeah EFI is just outright better all around except maybe for ease of retrofitting. That being said I ripped the efi and electronic coil on plug ignition off of my cars new engine, converting it to carb and dizzy.
>>28963894 ive daily ridden two carbed motorcycles including in the winter, both kawasakis, the latter a concours, at least for a motorcycle it's totally fine. EFI isn't the first computer I would introduce to my vehicles, personally. I'd rather ABS first, and servo actuated cruise control second, and then EFI can come third.
>>28964008 if you have an electric pump this is a non issue, and if you have the time to pop the hood and squirt gas into it it's negated that way aswell if you dont want to whirl the starter for 15 seconds.
>>28964015 Or even better, the mechanical fuel pumo has a manual primer handle on it so you can pump the bowl full by hand in like 10 seconds, crank the engine and be on your way.
>>28964014 >mistreat wut. not that anon but just parking my car then coming back to it 15-30 mins later it'll need to crank for a while to suck more fuel in. am getting aluminium heads soon though which might reduce heat soak a bit. also helped by the fact that the new heads won't have a heat riser exacerbating the issue. i wonder if any OEMs have made variable length intake manifolds work with carbs...yes dual planes exist but VLIMs are the successor to that
>>28964096 That's vapour lock and can be blamed on modern fuels not having the additives they used to. A way to rectify it is to have a fuel filter near the carb that has a return orifice for back to the tank so that the vapour doesn't obstruct fresh fuel into the bowls. Also, a phenolic spacer helps a lot with bowl evaporation.
>>28964106 even with a 1/2 inch spacer it does vapour lock, but probably not as bad as it would if it had no spacer at all. I think the heat riser is a huge contributor though. Can't wait to fuck it off.
EFI only works with the associated sensors and controls to adjust it. Problem you see with EFI small engines is that they are just mapped to something close to what it should be like and any variables can cause problems and unlike carbs you can't adjust it.
>>28964084 Uhh, all my Soviet cars have a handle on the pump to prime the carb. Soviet carbs in general, even on bikes, tended to have some sort of way to fill the floatbowl manually, the bike carbs had a "trickler" button that physically presses the float down to fill the bowl or to flood the carb if you want to for example cool down boiling carbs with fuel.
>>28964222 I've got a iron head, iron intake with heat riser and a 1 inch aluminium factory spacer w/ .25" phenolic spacer and I haven't had problems with starting or vapour lock at all. This is all in 35C/94F summer temps as well. But seriously, the filter with a vapour siphon might be your cure. Even if you have to run a return line, it's only a few hours and some NiCu line run back to the tank to not have the shitty vapour lock happen. Wix 33040 is my best example.
>>28964617 If you've never cleaned up a crusty carb bowl and you think "cranking it and pumping the throttle" solves the problem you are clearly a wrenchlet
>>28964621 Why is your carb bowl crusty in the first place? Don't let your gas get so old it crusts or put stabilizer in it if you know it's gonna sit. Fresh fuel in the bowl might evaporate after a couple weeks but again, it being fresh won't leave crusty shit.
>>28964645 Also merely having EFI won't stop fuel from aging in the tank. It will simply crust elsewhere. You will still need stabilizer for a car with fuel injection that is going to sit.
>>28964084 Flathead V8s came with them, pic rel. I prefer them to electric pumps, desu, they're very easy to rebuild, extremely cheap, and almost always very easy to access.
>>28964660 Gasoline, even modern blends, starts to varnish in 6 months or less. The method your engine delivers it to the cylinder has not changed how the fuel oxidizes over time.
>>28964666 Carb bowls need to be vented to the atmosphere buddy, a fuel rail does not, and the much larger fuel tank has an evap setup to reduce the flow of fresh air through the tank.
>>28964671 The tank is still vented to atmosphere, and while electric fuel pumps have a check valve, they do not hold pressure forever. The rail will eventually bleed back down into the tank.
>>28964703 >The tank is still vented to atmosphere Vented tanks went away in the early 70's. Any venting was only done via the Evaporative Emissions System after that.
>>28964666 >even modern blends ESPECIALLY modern blends. Ethanol is a moisture absorber. Modern E10 or E15 is good for like 90 days. Pre-ethanol fuel would still start an old carbureted vehicle even after sitting for 10 years. It would run quite badly but it *would* run
>>28964613 I had an old honda 450 that had such a crusty carburetor that both chemidip and ultrasonic didn't help. I had to get fine gauge drill bits and drill out the passageways inside
>>28964724 >What do you think the Canister Vent Valve does? Allow the charcoal canister to be vented...INTO THE ENGINE while it's running, not to atmosphere as with a vented tank. Why do you ask?
>>28964744 Incorrect. You're thinking of the purge valve. The vent valve vents to atmosphere. I'm literally an evaporative emissions diagnostics technician anon, this shit is my job.
>>28964756 >You're thinking of the purge valve Derp, you're right. Done a bit of driveability in my day but no one gave a fuck about Evap unless it directly affected engine performance. Non-emissions area of course.
After a quick brushup (it's been 35 years after all) my read on the CVV is that it allows fresh air IN to the Evap system and not to allow tank vapors to be vented outside the car as with a vented tank.
>>28964286 thanks. i think i can live with it; it's just a bit of pedal pumping or holding the pedal down slightly to get the vacuum to succ fuel in for probably 15 secs? so not too bad. >>28964218 i never said it was a pain
>>28964949 >reduce That does not mean eliminate. Not my car though, feel free to not use stabilizer out of some retarded spite when it sits and deal with your fucked up fuel system afterwards. Not my problem.
>>28964958 You're the one who's going to find out the hard way fuel still ages in modern cars. Are you so poor and handicapped you can't spend $7 on a bottle of stabilizer and pour a few ounces in your tank? I don't understand why this is such a massive problem for you.
>>28963783 EFI >"You want more horsepower? Not without a custom ecu, tune, wideband, and dyno" Carb >"Oh nice intake and exhaust thanks for the extra flow here's more gaaas haha vroooom vroom" >horsepower intensifies
>>28964985 EFI: >oh you added a turbo? Well I wasn't designed for that... but ok I guess if you keep the boost low I can figure it out... Carb: >if you try to turbocharge me I will wreck your shit
>>28964666 AAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAALOLLLLLLOLLL ranchlet ricer his 'bowl' is 'drying' and making 'crust' ahahahaahahahhhhaahahaaaahahahahahaalolololmaoooo what a fucking ricer
>>28965818 >he has to unbolt his fuel pump and run his engine till the carb is dry just to stop his shit from getting clogged if he leaves it for a few months
>>28963807 that is fucking gay. i want fuel being pissed into the engine through a giant hose. hell i want a fucking massive gas turbine on my car that spits flames out the back and eats all the fuel in 5 seconds. money is not an issue, as long my car is badass and not gay.
>>28965764 It technically is due to being mostly mechanical. It gets even more complicated if it's some gay ass vacuum or electrically operated carb like what the japs loved to stick in their shitheaps before EFI properly took off.
>>28966345 >It technically is due to being mostly mechanical I dunno, bud, this looks a tad more complicated then a carb to me. A carb can function as little more than a big hole, butterfly, and little hole, where as an ECU is... Well, it's an ECU. Microchips, motherboards, capacitors, programming, yada yada yada.
>>28966369 You're not thinking this from a normie/zoomer point of view. When the ECU fucks up, you call a tow and replace the ECU with a new one, it's disposable junk. Give a normie a carb and they're pretty much completely clueless what do do with it.
>>28963783 strict emissions limits. Its also why they added EGR valves, turbocharges/superchargers, downsized engines, cylinder deactivation, stop-start systems, expensive batteries lthium-ion(increased vehicle fire risk) batteries, DPF/GPF filters. All these shitty features that reduce car long term reliability and engine lifespan and making cars more expensive, difficult to maintain/repair. Things that should have never been created for cars.
Better solution would have been a mandatory ISG(belt driven motor-alternator)+ electric AC compressor for all pure internal combustion engine cars for better mpg, lower emissions, increased low rpm torque.
>>28966379 >You're not thinking this from a normie/zoomer point of view. If the normie point of view is where you were coming from, then fair enough, but that being the case I'd still argue that it remains somewhat of a moot point, as a "tune up" would've been part of a carbed car's regular servicing at the shop anyway. Whether it's an ECU or a carb doing the work, it's all an equal mystery to the normie, and neither or acknowledged or understood.
>>28964725 People are silly paranoids on ethanol, in reality its not that bad fuel at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3RfuSaZ-VU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZjv8IuuYrE Those who are afraid of ethanol fuel could update even old classic cars to better handle ethanol with Fluoroelastomer(aka Viton), PTFE fuel lines and seals because these materials can take gasoline, ethanol, methanol, even some oils, acids and pesticides. Fluoroelastomer is more flexible/elastic making it more easier to build fuel system than PTFE. There are E85 fuel pumps from AEM, Walbro, Holley(also builds E85 compatible carburetors).
Too understandable. Too simple and reliable. Too user-serviceable, not enough barrier to entry for maintenance and repairs. I pulled the carb out of a 50 year old bike that had been sitting undrained for 30 of those years. Took it as apart as I could, left the bits in paint thinner overnight, degunked and extracted and cleaned the valves the next day. Replaced the O-rings. Worked perfect. I don't even know anything about engines! I was just making it up as I went along!
>>28966441 You believe that a basic 90s EFI system is hard to understand? Complicated? Unreliable? Not serviceable? Has too much of a barrier to entry for maintenance and repair?
>>28966417 Not often at all, thus why an EFI system is simpler. It's all a matter of perspective in the end, for some carbs are easier than EFI with their laptop bullshit, for others plugging in a laptop to fuck around with the program is easier. Everyone agrees that jetronic and similar German mechanical fuel injection is unsalvageable.
>>28963783 Flow requirement limits the pressure differential. Injection makes smaller fuel droplets but also, you can control the droplet size on demand. It's useful when the engine might need quenching and a slower burn (temp and timing control) instead of the theoretical maximum best.
>>28966544 My entire injection and ignition system is piss easy. It's just getting into it that sucks. Automatic $150 purchase for gaskets and seals any time the manifold comes off.
>>28966975 >carb fags need to put a computer on their car to bleed air past the carb to get good fuel trims
bruh just spend that same money on a speeduino or megasquirt and then your computer can not only control the air that bleed into your motor but the fuel and timing too.
>>28966995 i was just saying it was an option. speeduino is roughly the same price but requires more to set up. the most you have to do with the cheater is crimp some wiring and drill a hole in the exhaust for the wideband. If I could get a megasquirt ready to install for 500 bucks I'd totally do it. But the cheater just werks.
>>28967007 Oxygen is a persistent little bastard and will work its way into anything given enough time, especially as the pressure in the line fades to zero. The fuel in the tank is exposed to air when the vent valve opens, and guess what will happen anyway the first time you go back to crank it? The oxidized fuel in the tank will be pumped to the injectors.
>>28966437 Lets not forget the main intention of ethanol was to reduce tail pipe emissions from internal combustion engines, while also making car owners more energy independent against oil companies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmBMx0SyaTM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HIoVVeGuhA https://www.wikihow.com/Make-Ethanol-Fuel https://www.instructables.com/How-to-Make-100-Ethanol-Anhydrousabsolute/ https://www.theautochannel.com/news/2018/10/12/632678-ethanol-papers-massive-book-provides-whole-story-ethanol-fuel-free.html If anybody remembers the oil and fuel crisis back in the 1970s. Both Gasoline,diesel was very expensive and difficult to get, which caused riots, some drivers even fighting each other for gas, also people stealing gas from others cars. Those who made their own ethanol at their homes, had cars running ethanol fuel had no issues back then to drive cars regularly. Because ethanol can be produced from everything that contains sugar or starch. Water was able to collect straight from nature instead of using cleaned water from faucets.
>>28967592 Alcohol fuels were developed long before the concerns of emissions. You could buy a Model T set up to run either gasoline or ethanol, depending on what was available (or cheaper) in your area. In the 20's it was not uncommon to have areas in the midwest and parts of the south where everything ran on ethanol, simply because there were no gasoline distributors in the area.
>>28967805 i actually meant the tbi body but whatever. yes i know you can get manifolds that have injector bosses on them. but my carb mostly works. why spend 2 grand when 500 will do well enough?
>>28967083 >a persistent little bastard and will work its way into anything given enough time It's a gas, not a person. And it's oxygen, not helium. It's not going to penetrate the steel tubing of the fuel rail. It would just rust the fuel rail instead. >but some of the fuel in the tank would oxidize because there's some empty space there Mostly gasoline fumes, the evap system only lets air in the keep the pressure at ambient. And why would I care? Oxidized fuel may not burn as well but we're arguing about gunking up the fuel rail. The walls of my fuel tank have some gunk on them oh no. The fuel rail will be fine.
>>28970030 What are we doing here buddy? What's the purpose of you linking all your retarded posts and me linking all my replies btfoing your retarded posts? They're all still there, we don't have to link them again.
>>28969853 >pump jet you mean accelerator pump? there are no filters inside of a carberator, some have a threaded inlet filter but that's mostly oldschool oem style ones. some carberators have a sortof sediment deflector in the bowl but it's not a filter.
>>28969284 Why would I care about gunk that's dissolved in my gas tank? It's dissolved, it's not going to collect in my fuel rail. If it's fuel-soluble, why would it precipitate in the first place? I think you didn't think this through.
>>28970543 I mean the pump jet you fucking nigger, the jet for sizing the accelerator pump, and obviously there's no filters inside a car it was a rhetorical question.
>>28963783 Because you can only tune them for a specific use case. If you want power it wstes fuel on low end. If you want a good daily tune, it robs you of top end. >>28963894 It's not that bad. I still have one with 4 barrel boomerbrock. It makes 180hp, the big carbonator is just for show.
>>28964756 >I'm literally an evaporative emissions diagnostics technician anon, this shit is my job. How do you feel about me removing my charcoal canister and capping the nipple for the hose by the throttle?
>>28972293 NTA but in my experience you should keep the charcoal canister because it limits the airflow through the tank and you'll get a lot more fuel evaporation on hot days without it. But yes you can just vent that puppy to atmo and there's no need to have it hooked up to the intake.
>>28972428 >I want my fuel metering system to cost 8x more for the same afr so that i can leave it sitting for a year at a time without having problems this is what pedantic efi people sound like to me.
Or you could pull some from the 9001 EFI cars which go to the scrapper every single day. Or even better again - you could search up injectors from popular tuner cars, who's owners are frequently upgrading the injectors for more boost and selling the old ones for cheap.
>>28972595 this fat stinking spic in his shitsmell civic would have us beleive that he could take every component off the top of a sbc and replace it with electronic fuel injection for less than 2k. and even if he could he'd gain fucking nothing over just opting up for a new 650, afr guage and jet/pv kit
>>28972584 >pull some from the 9001 EFI cars which go to the scrapper be grateful you live in a jurisdiction that hasn't made it prohibitively expensive to insure a self-serve scrapyard.
>>28972603 I'd be able to get a SBC running on EFI for a lot less than $2k because I'm not a wrenchlet, and what I'd gain is the ability to easily tune it for an extra atmosphere of boost. But of course I wouldn't actually bother doing any of that to a gay old pushrod dino-motor when OHC engines go to the junkyard every day with fully functioning factory EFI systems.
>>28972936 Because stupid fucking inbred nigger boomers can't comprehend a few simple lines of text on a laptop, admittedly they can't even operate said laptop without shitting their pants
>>28964379 In the 25+ years I've been driving, I've never had an ECU break. I have never known a single person who has had an ECU fail. I couldn't tell you how many hours my dad wasted on weekends fucking with the carbs on his cars, though.
>>28973786 Lol, right? When the Suzuki TL1000S came out (their first FI bike) there were complaints, among others, that the FI throttle response was too aggressive. "It's like an on/off switch". Well, that's what happens when you don't have to sit around and wait for CV's or baby a slide.
>>28973994 I had a 1995 CBR600F (carbed) and it was completely gutless below 5000 rpm. Later I bought a 2005 CBR600F (EFI) and it pulled nicely from 3000 rpm.
>>28973018 >You first, how can EFI magically make more power? by sampling the engine's sensors (O2, MAF/MAP, IAT, crankshaft RPM, etc.) and adjusting fuel delivery and timing in real time as per the mapping table. a carburetor cannot track the variables i mentioned.
>>28974086 I'm not arguing against your point but my carbureted vehicle has an oxygen sensor and a mixture control solenoid that adjusts the fueling based on the O2 sensor's reading.
>>28974264 Quite literally yes you fucking retard. What the fuck else is a FUEL MIXTURE CONTROL solenoid that moves the FUEL metering rods up and down to adjust how much FUEL is METERED into the jets going to do? https://www.hotrod.com/features/feedback-fables-march-1989-982-1424-76-1
>>28974284 i'm >>28974086. i've never bothered to learn much about electronically controlled carburetors. interesting idea, but it doesn't really fit the binary discussion of carburetor vs EFI. and if you're going to all of the trouble to implement electronic carbs, why would you not take another small leap and jump to electronically controlled injection and spark?
>>28974284 Haha what a gay and negroided system. Yeah I thought you were the carb cheater anon from earlier and you had a fundamental misunderstanding of the operation of the carb cheater.
>>28974286 The same vehicle I was referring to with the electronic carb does have computer controlled spark with another sort of in-between design. It has a distributor, but an HEI (High Energy Ignition) version with no mechanical points to wear, an internal coil, and a computer inside to control it. As for why not EFI, it simply was likely too expensive and/or not ready yet for mass production when this was launched, it did come a few years later.
>>28963783 It's hard to implement single lambda feedback control on a carburetor, let alone double lambda, and I imagine once OBDII was federally mandated (which mandated downstreams), there wasn't any cost/complexity benefit vs TBI or MFI. Which explains the last vehicle in the US with a carburetor being in the 94 model year.
>Which explains the last vehicle in the US with a carburetor being in the 94 model year.
I had one of those. The stock carb probably worked alright while new but it was a heap when i got it so i threw on a weber 32/32. Loved that little truck but i wasnt making enough money from it to maintain it so i sold it before it was unsellable.