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stop kissing paintings

>>533325426
Fuck off Jew worshipper

>>533325426
It solves a lot of issues. Roman Catholicism is a cultural thing and if that is your culture please stick to it. For others who are drawn to Christ the Orthodox Church is usually the better place to look.

>>533325426
>Exchanges pope for patriarch
Solves what again? Your glownigger church was taken over by KGB before you were born.

>>533325426
>couldn't prevent prison rape pandemic
(((((((((

>>533325478
Rare funny Protestant post.

Your stupid patriarch is a turk puppet.

>>533325426
-is what something a historically illiterate retard would say. They have schisms every twenty years or so because of retarded politics and power tripping patriarchs

>>533325534
Can't tell if retarded or just lying.

>>533325478
you can't make me

>>533325604
You may want to look into what your beloved patriarch was doing in Switzerland during the cold war, nigger.

>>533325478
Stop worshipping jews.

>>533325724
I am familiar with those various discussions. The point is that it doesn't matter and the Patriarch of Moscow or whatever is not an equivalent to the Pope. This is basic level shit and you don't even know that, making the rest of your opinions worthless.

>>533325834
I only worship Janez Jansa, thank you sir

All the Eastern Orthodox I've interacted with online are hateful losers. And they gatekeep the JQ. They are not really into debating unless it's against low hanging fruit. I embarrassed several of them. Oriental Orthodox are much kinder. But Protestantism is the way.

>>533325426
>by becoming state propaganda
awesome!

>>533326142
>I talked to some retarded tr00ns on discord, therefore Orthodoxy is fake and gay

I'd tell you to leave your house but on deeper reflection you shouldn't, actually.

>>533325426
>keeps all the heresies

>>533325498
based

>>533326237
this

>>533326237
How do you feel about Jay Dyer? Are him and his friends "retarded tr00ns"? If so, then your point stands. But I doubt that's what you meant.

>>533325957
>Patriarch of Moscow or whatever is not an equivalent to the Pope
For Russian orthodox people (and other nations under his jurisdiction, which is most of the western world) he kinda is though. Effectively there is no difference

>>533325998
Jewša

>>533325998
He actually worships America, so protestantism
And he hates Orthodoxy

>>533325426
The

D O U B L E

C
O
S
S

>>533326313
>Jay Dyer
Never heard of him. Online Orthodoxy is dubious and the church and supported books explain things much better

>>533326464
Like it or not, Jay Dyer and his discord army are the ones representing Eastern Orthodoxy in America. They are the fruit and there is some rot somewhere.

>>533325478
No Divinity. False prophet.

>>533326555
There's some rot in everything but that doesn't mean everything should be discarded outright. My clergy warns of too much online Orthodoxy but also sees it as a good thing to get Americans into church and learn properly

>>533326386
>>533326374
Are Ljubljana hoi polloi still getting fucked to death by their dogs? It's been a few years since I was in the area.

>>533326313
>>533326555
I don't care if Jay Dyer is theologically correct on all points (he probably isn't), I don't trust anyone who is taken as some kind of expert or authority with disciples (discord army) of his own, and neither should you.

>>533326743
>>533326767
Salvation is by Faith Alone though.

Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for He hath said,
"I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."
Hebrews 13:5 KJV

>>533325426
that cross even has a headrest for rabi yeshu

>>533325478
funny enough he wrote to the patriarchs of orthodox churches just to be told to fuck off with his heresy

>>533326990
Quoting the Bible like that doesn't really work towards people who don't believe in sola scriputra. Church tradition say sola fide is not enough so your argument lacks common ground

>>533326743
>My clergy
I thought faggotry was wrong in kikeianity?

>>533327348
Doesn't have to do with Sola Scriptura. Simply explain why a Christian who ends up in hell is not "forsaken" as St. Paul reminds us God explicitly said He would not do.

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>>533325478
>kiss jews instead

>>533325478
We kiss the icons, and their recipients know that we kiss them, and show our love and/or reverence, and there's nothing you can do about it, bot/shill/satanist

>>533327602
Because God never leaves the person, even in hell

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>>533325426
What do the 2 other lines on the cross represent here?

>>533325478
stop posting paintings of people i want to kiss.

>>533328325
That is some wild exegesis. St. Paul is comforting us with the idea that God will never forsake a Christian, and your interpretation is that when a bad Christian goes to hell (because he didn't work enough to keep his salvation), God still technically hasn't forsaken them.

>>533328411
>top
Iesus Nazarenus, Rex Iudaeorum (King of the Jews)

>bottom
footrest pointing to the thief on His right that went to heaven (angled upwards) and the thief on His left that went to hell

>>533328589
Not my interpretation
>"The sorrow of those who suffer in hell is the sorrow of being chastised by love." — St. Isaac the Syrian

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>>533328684
Ah, I wondered if the top was the INRI sign. Anyway, thanks.

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>>533328684
St. Isaac did not ever imply a Christian could be in hell, did he? That quote does not affirm that idea.

Anyway, here is Augustine the heretic admitting that Apostolic Christians taught Faith Alone.

>>533325478
>Moses kills you

>>533328942
I'll be honest that I don't have all the perfect pieces of evidence as to why faith alone is not enough. I do however have faith in my church and their reasoning as to why. If you want better answers, go to an Eastern Orthodox catechism class and ask

>>533325426
Isn’t ortho christianity closer to buddhism than to other actual christian sects though. Mainstream christians are too retarded for that, they hear the word “esoteric” and directly associate it to hollywood black magic.

Sorry, I don’t LARP

>>533329691
I don't understand how you're connecting buddhism and how others are "actual" Christians when they came after

>>533325513
>it's a cultural thing
>there's one catholic church
>there are a million eastern orthodox churches all based on nationality and cultural differences

im not even christian, but your logic is borderline schizophrenic

>>533330335
>Eastern Catholic Churches are 23 sui iuris (autonomous) churches in full communion with the Pope in Rome, combining Byzantine, Syriac, or other Eastern theological and liturgical traditions with Catholic doctrine

>>533330038
They're different metaphysical models but function very similarly. Orthodoxy has hesychasm which is pretty much buddhist praxis, not only buddhist honestly, it can be held against most eastern religions, it resembles more eastern meditation and mantra/zhenyan usage, asceticism involved too. Catholicism and protestantism are very removed from all that, they're streamlined for the west.

I see it pretty hard for a catholic or a protestant to get deep into orthodoxy and accept it when it so "eastern". And the use of "actual" was probably a poor choice there, but it was used in reference to buddhism not ortho christianity.

>>533330863
I see and yes there is similarity with the mysticism, but similarity =/= same foundation. Orthodox are definitely more comfortable with saying "we don't know" than the west

>>533330660
Yes, but that stems from ecumenical efforts. If you convert to Orthodoxy, you still have to decide if it'll be Greek, Armenian, Russian, Ukrainian, whatever... and it's all very much cultural per se

>>533331452
You choose yes, but it's the same faith (except for oriental) and for the laity it doesn't really matter despite any patriarchal bickering. Only minor traditions vary

>>533326366
>For Russian orthodox people (and other nations under his jurisdiction, which is most of the western world) he kinda is though. Effectively there is no difference

What are you talking about, you idiot? What majority of the Western world?

In Orthodoxy, the equivalent of the Pope is the Ecumenical Patriarch (Archbishop of Constantinople — New Rome) Bartholomew I. The Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church severed relations with him in October 2018. At the moment, the Russian Orthodox Church is a sect of schismatics. They can all be burned at the stake as heretics.

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>>533325478
FPBP

The second Second Council of Nicaea states that icon veneration is an "apostolic practice" but we see absolutely no signs of it either in the scriptures or the teachings of the church fathers until well after the apostolic era. We are aware of some religious art, but not icon veneration during the era, and certainly not icon veneration as the Easterners practice.

If icon veneration was not an apostolic practice, the Second Council of Nicaea is erroneous. If the Second Council of Nicaea is erroneous, than ecumenical councils can be erroneous. If ecumenical councils can be erroneous, both Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are wrong and Protestantism is correct.

>>533331699
>it doesn't really matter despite any patriarchal bickering
Until you get kicked out for heresy because you'd didn't support the patriarchs political views kek

>>533332582
Early christians used and worshiped sacred images though, also apostolic doesn't mean "explicitly written down early". I don't see the overall logic either, even if the council fucks up that doesn't prove protestantism is "right"

>>533332692
we don't have ex cathedra pilpul, the patriarch can be wrong

>>533332987
>apostolic doesn't mean "explicitly written down early".
You are correct, it means "the apostles did this." which we have absolutely no records of them doing. There are no records of any kind of icon veneration even remotely similar to what the Easterners practice until the 4th century, which is hundreds of heard after the apostolic era.
>I don't see the overall logic either, even if the council fucks up that doesn't prove protestantism is "right"
Both the Roman Catholics and Easterners claim ecumenical councils are infallible. It is a core doctrine of those traditions. Infallible of course means "incapable of making any mistake." and therefore even a single verifiable error means that councils are not infallible. Protestants of all traditions believe ecumenical councils are powerful authorities but they are not infallible if they deviate from the scriptures. Only the scriptures are truly without error. Therefore only a Protestant can look at the Second Council of Nicaea and simply refute it as wrong because the contents of its claims are not found in scripture.

>>533325426
>still a kike cult

>>533333346
>we don't have ex cathedra pilpul
>he doesn't know
Name under which patriarchs jurisdiction you are and I will show you an example

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>>533325478
As soon as you stop parading trannies and queers in your churches.

>>533333788
Yes this is actually a lodge in your own eye situation

>>533333457
It's not that there aren't records, it's just they're limited, there's barely any detailed records of early practices. But you have things like Dura Europos church or Basil the great talking about image worship. Point is this obviously didn't suddenly appear in the 4th century. And also that's not exactly what apostolic means, you're using the modern definition, if you want writen proof for everything you'd have to discard a lot more than just icons.

Just to make it clear, you're claiming that "lack of evidence" = "non existence", that "apostolic" must be explicitly recorded and that sola scriptuira is already true. If any of these claims fail, your argument fails too, and the truth is all of these claims are debatable.

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>>533332582
The first icon of Mary was painted by St. Mark, the same one who wrote the gospel, during her lifetime
>>533333457
>but they are not infallible if they deviate from the scriptures.
The New Testament was not compiled at all until the First Council, the texts existed, and so did others, only with the First Council did the fathers discern which ones should be referred to and which were dubious.
>>533333675
My local bishop literally met Putin last year and everyone in his diocese and his brother bishops shat all over him like he was Hitler himself, he refused to apologize, but no one was kicked out and no actual challenge was ever brought by other bishops. Orthodoxy has a much longer history of emperors and kings removing bishops for political reasons than vice versa.
>>533328589
If God is not present in hell, then he is not omnipresent, and therefore not God.
There is a popular opinion that hell is just what you feel when you have rejected God, it's the feeling jews get when presented with a cross

>>533334397
>There is a popular opinion that hell is just what you feel when you have rejected God,
In Orthodoxy hell is specifically a place away from God. So I guess in Orthodoxy God is not omnipresent.

>>533325426
https://youtu.be/-Fp7w3Jy3yk

>>533333675
Patriarch of Georgia, go ahead.
>>533334397
Church and state are both part of the church ideally, of course this never happens until the kingdom to come but they should balance each other out. Church is the priest, government is the Deacon.

>>533334481
Nah in orthodoxy hell isn't a place where god is absent, it's still omnipresent but you experience it as suffering.

>>533334481
Literally not true. In Orthodox Christianity there is no single concept of hell. There is what can be referred to as Hades which is a literal dimensional domain in which demons reside and they also drag souls with them there, there is also lake of fire and outer darkness which will be after second coming as the end result of separation of wheat from the chaff on the scale of the entire cosmos.
That being said none of those cause the torment, torment is caused because when you are dead your Nous is no longer clouded by material reality and you can directly witness Gods energies omnipresently filling creation. Your very being being directly opposed to Gods nature causes the suffering because he is omnipresent. It is a level of regret and gnashing of teeth and seething which transcends into a cosmological level.

>>533334150
I'm not the one making the historical claim. The Second Council of Nisaea claims that icon veneration claims that it is an apostolic practice, meaning that it was practiced by the apostles. I am asking you to prove it, but you can't prove it and have to rely on third party post-apostolic era sources to infer the practice.

However, two can play that game. You mention Dura Europos and Basil? Well Irenaeus and Hippolytus described the use of sacred images as a practice of heretics. Clement of Alexandria wrote “Works of art cannot then be sacred and divine.” The Council of Hieria, which had more bishops than Nicaea II and was earlier than Nicaea II, rejected image veneration entirely.

Again, "apostolic" simply means something the apostles did or taught. The apostles, as far as we can tell, did not venerate icons. We simply do not see the practice spring up until around the 4th century and it didn't look anything remotely like the Eastern understanding of it until the 6th century.

>>533334834
Similarly heaven isn't strictly a place. There is a literal throne of God which represents his presence in reality, it is an actual dimension and angels actually hold eternal divine liturgy there.
But the experience of heaven is due to the person being in synergy with God through faith, salvation is the transformation of human into the image of Christ as new Adam.

>>533325513
Just make sure you're going for either the Greek or Bulgarian Orthodox Churches. The Russian Orthodox Church is a scam controlled by the Kremlin.

>>533334397
>The first icon of Mary was painted by St. Mark, the same one who wrote the gospel, during her lifetime
Even if that was true, painting an icon and veneration of an icon are very different things. Most Protestants are not iconoclasts. The question isn't if icons/religious art weren't made in the early church, the question is if icon veneration was a universal apostolic practice. There is little if any evidence to suggest that is the case.

>>533334904
Sure, but you're still assuming that because there wasn't enough evidence pre-4th century, it didn't exist, Basil treats image worshiping as something that was already there. And early christians can disagree on this shit like you point out, the council of Hieria even rejected it, that means there was a dispute about it and that icon worshiping isn't something that appeared in the 4th century.

>>533334834
Something like that. But that is why Orthodoxy is less likely to be true since merely a feeling cannot be a form of eternal punishment. After all, feelings change depending on the state of mind. Unless Orthodoxy believes that you can repent inside hell and get out, I don't see how it makes sense. The judeo-protestant version with literal burning in hell makes more sense

>>533335105
We are not Donatists, do not say such things.
Your salvation is not dependant on virtue of your bishops, the purpose of Church is liturgical, therapudic and pedagogical.
If you can participate in divine life through your faith in a church that professes orthodox dogma this is good enough even if your bishop is a sinner.
The only point at which you need to change church is when your bishop goes into heresy. So for example if your Russian bishop would start preaching ethnophyletism then you would leave to another church.

>>533325426
>>533325478
Both are posers and larpers today sadly

>>533335415
this guy knows

>>533334481
Heaven and hell are both beyond the comprehension of our mortal brains and we can only speculate as to their actual nature. Orthodoxy doesn't have a universal teaching beyond heaven good hell bad. This was also the case in the west until Luther tried to scientifically define salvation. The western idea of hell is demonstrably developed from Dante's Inferno much more than theology. Purgatory originated from a need to refute Luther instead of a search for the truth.
What we know from scripture is that hell is likened to a fire that burns everything, but in the old testament and our pre-communion prayers, so is God himself. The speculation is it's the same fire and the saints are not consumed the same way the burning bush wasn't and all those other similar types.
My opinion is that the spirit realm (God) exists in all eleven dimensions postulated by string theory and we only see three of them while we live.
>>533334606
I disagree, church and state shouldn't be involved in others' daily affairs, but they should be of the same faith, and multi religious monstrosities like the United States are doomed to sectarianism.
>>533334967
>There is a literal throne of God
I dispute this on the grounds that every description we have of God is simply explaining things we cannot understand in terms of things we do understand. Does God literally have a right hand to do wonders as scripture describes? Not really, because he is pure essence

>>533325498
>memeflag jeet
many such cases

>>533335415
>ethnophyletism
Literally the point of Orthodoxy. At leastnthe true eastern kind

>>533335299
Eternal punishment doesn't make sense if we assume we're maintaining the same ego or "soul" during the process (which the narrative needs to assume), it doesn't matter if we're talking protestant or any other sect. No matter the amount of suffering you'd end up taking it to its opposite, turning pain into pleasure. And same goes for heaven and "eternal joy", it'd end up being a cyclical situation in both "places", a cycle of suffering and enjoying, pretty much what we have here.

>>533335299
You need to understand what Logoi are, in spiritual realm what you experience and what literally happens is exactly the same.
The fire you are burning in spiritually is more real than a material fire.

>>533335299
>Unless Orthodoxy believes that you can repent inside hell and get out, I don't see how it makes sense.
We have prayers for residents of hell that God will pull them out, because they can't repent no matter how much they want to, but God can always change his mind.

>>533335497
Gods throne is not a literal material throne, but there is some kind of a dimension or a a space in which seraphim, cherubim and other angels hold the eternal divine liturgy for glory of God.
Gods anthropomorphic presence is in Christ himself.

>>533335742
>but there is some kind of a dimension or a a space in which seraphim, cherubim and other angels hold the eternal divine liturgy for glory of God.
I stand by my string theory hypothesis.

>>533325478
Stop judaizing

>>533326990
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? James 2:14-26 NKJV

>>533335291
>Basil treats image worshiping as something that was already there
most converts were former pagans, so ofc pagan practices sift into the early churches.
Paul had to repeatedly correct the churches of his time of false teachings, doctrines of demons etc. it was there from the very beginning.

Jesus deals with false teachings in his churches in Revelation very early on.
> 14 But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality. 15 So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 Therefore repent.

>20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, 23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works.

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>>533325426
>>533325513
Refusing the COVID vaxx is a SIN in the Orthodox church btw.

>>533327602
>Christian who ends up in hell is not "forsaken" as St. Paul reminds us God explicitly said He would not do.
Doesn't say that in your quote.
Simply says "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."
Doesn't specify when in hell so it stands to reason that it'sbduring our lifetime. Once the Final Judgement emphasis on Final is passed, then you are severed from God if He condemns you to eternal damnation.

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>>533325534
>here's your patriarch, bro

>>533325478
stop kissing little boys lmao

>>533337111
another illiterate jamboy
That was the opinion of Met. Hilarion and it only carried any weight in his diocese
My bishop in contrast stated the kike spike was "not my problem" and people should ask their doctor instead of him

>>533334397
>If God is not present in hell, then he is not omnipresent, and therefore not God.
smug midwit take. Can God create a rock that He can not lift?
Answer : God can lift a rock without lifting it.
Same for that question.

>>533337431
is this supposed to make it better?

>>533337590
Yes, nobody is compelled to take any bishop's word as law, unlike the RCC

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>>533325567
>>533337431
Bow to muslims, chud.

>>533337441
That's not the same, God is truly omnipresent because creation subsists entirely through God.
Gods existence is primal, while the rest of existence is a result of his free will and choice, everything that exists proactively is being created through logos and upheld in the spirit.
In the most crude way possibly, created existence is separate existence that is in every moment being "simulated" through active creative process of God by his own choice, in the procession of father through son in spirit, Logoi to logos omnipresently.

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>>533325604
>>533325957
Muslim refugees are king!

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>>533326142
They are directed to by their leaders

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>>533326237
lol

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>>533325478

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>>533325478
and start worshiping kikes

>>533337874
denounce the talmud moishe

>>533325426
Which one of the two dozen different Orthodox Churches who all disagree with each other?

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>>533325426
>>533325498

>>533338013
>all protestants cream their pants over isreal
keep your local heresies to yourself, dispensationalist

>>533338085
All eastern Orthodox churches agree

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>>533338193
Wow what a revelation! I surely haven't ever studied the roots of the religion

>All this seething
OP is right actually. Orthodox Patriarchs do not have the same power and influence as Pope. Politically their authority is limited to a single country and spiritually they are no different from your local priest.

>>533338774
>Politically their authority is limited to a single country
>zigger memeflag
The Russian Orthodox Church basically acts as a wannabe imperialist power trying to open their churches even in countries that have their own Orthodox Church.

>>533339383
b-b-but its okay when patriarch bart's fart and shart does it

>>533335688
Did God ever change his mind in new testament? I heard he did in Old

>>533325426
Papal Smear.

>>533325478
rather kiss icons that 1000 babuskas kissed than migrant dick like you do when your women priests tell you to, protestard

>>533337178
Respond to this orthodorks

>>533325534
the patriarch doesn't claim he's an infallible human.

>>533340641
Maybe the painting kissing explains the high hiv rates in eastern europe

>>533340105
It literally is, according to orthocuck religion lmao
Also, his power extends to just organisational matters, not literally establishing colonies and shiet like the Russians try to do

>>533341026
lack of using condoms does, romania has a condom culture where every cornerstore and supermarket sells it and we have way lower std rates than the rest of east euro

>>533340834
Church is a spiritual hospital. You don't get rejected for being lgbtqbbq. You won't be allowed to receive the sacrament of marriage, however.

>>533325426
Did the person that made this piece of art, think that Jesus was an octopus?

>>533340641
i forgive you

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They are why we don't have a lot of Jews, maybe 5 or 6. It's funny when people say "post nose" and they don't understand history. My ancestors were from Prussia I'm super non Jew.

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>>533341026
oof

>>533341439
ok, achmed

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>>533341698
Dumb gypsy

>>533341872
>muh colors to hide his aids faggotry.
the migrant cock has given you brain prions

>>533337178
Blackpill for traditionalists, people only dislike trannies becuase they don't pass, and it is much easier to pass as FtM

>>533341958
>and it is much easier to pass as FtM
this isn't true, but being a man is so much more hellish that a woman who can stand it is pretty much honorary

>>533337933
Damn they have laptops? Looks more like a parliament than a church. Catholics don't have that, at least ours

>>533337441
If God creates a rock that he cannot lift, that means that he effectively makes himself no longer omnipotent. Can God do this? Sure, but why would he. It was not a very good argument to begin with.

>>533341872
Now remove all the countries that dont have a manned space program.

>>533342040
It is true, you just look very effeminate, but there are a lot of men who look very effeminate. Then you wear baggy clothes to conceal your body and you basically already passed. Voice can be a problem but afaik it is easier to make voice deeper than it is to make it more feminine

>>533342197
A litteraly nazi made space travel possible.
Youre a less than 50% white economic zone, so fuck off

>>533342406
Exaggeration. Nazis helped, but mainly eith equations they already did. USA could do it even with their own native cadres after they obtained the work

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>>533325426
>the way i worship a dead jewish rabbi is better than the way you worship a dead jewish rabbi
you're all dumb goyim desu

>>533342844
You are not smarter than me.

>>533325478
>>533325657
>>533326683
>>533327199
>>533327752
>>533337372
>>533340641
This post probably was a sin again so I'll apologize to my eastern orthodox friends and I will in the future try to be more careful on /pol/

>>533340890
Having to explain to the purposely ignorant what papal infallibility actually entails, time and time again is the most tiring example of how I know you’re all just defined as not being Catholic rather than trying to be a real church. You’re so steeped in your own propaganda that when it’s explained you just bring up something irrelevant like the crusades or some obscure council or something that didn’t actually establish anything relevant to the schism or just completely misconstrue the definition. Never in my life have I been so bored than I have during a conversation with an orthodox Christian. At least the Protestants are enjoyable since they get hilariously fringe in their divergences and claims. The fact that your denomination allows divorce, constantly succumbs to your own schisms, and can’t even maintain a ecumenical council to clarify murkiness in dogma is enough to know you’re nothing more than a leashed political tool. Constantly the orthodox talk about their structure and their hierarchies and respecting tradition but the minute it’s convenient it’s dropped for pseudo Protestantism where you don’t actually have to listen if you don’t want to. Absolute dogwater.

>>533343190
you are forgiven. good (You) farm desu

>>533342844
God himself would be agnostic. It's the most reasonable position.

>>533343524
good criticism but seizing power, diluting your own church with V2, and all the legalism and additions are valid reasons for people to be attracted to Orthodoxy instead of Catholicism

>>533325426
Or maybe abrahamism as a whole is bullshit?

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>>533341872
come on norway, we are both nordic, just admit when you are wrong, brother