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Squats are one of the most quintessentially oldhammer armies. Probably because they were legendarily, Squatted. As nobody but one guy really cared about them and then they left the company and really their niche was found and replaced with Tau in 3rd.
and I mean the niche they found doing well in with the bikers was covered better with battlesuits, the guardsmen but better because they're dwarfs thing never really gelled that well. Ethereals replaced living ancestors.

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In Oldhammer stuff they really found their working character in Epic more than anything, where they got to play with more interesting toys.
This was apparently a big surprise to Jervis and Andy developing Epic when 3rd edition came along and they were dropped there, as Squats were an afterthought up at the studio. Woops. They got a Citadel Journal army list fairly promptly. And remained covered into Epic: Armageddon in an extended way though out of production.

But the way Epic worked just gave the Squats space to actually have some character of their own. No titans, not tank swarms like the Imperial guard, but rock solid infantry backed up by a variety of interesting giant war machines and fast moving formations, and different forms of artillery support meant they played quite differently.

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Problem was those weird egg armour biker lancer guys just don't really seem that cool in 28mm.
But would have been hell trying to make/sell an army of mech suits back in the late '80s with softer lead-pewter minis so not like they could have gone the tau battlesuit route for them even if they wanted. Something only as bulky as Terminator armour was enough of a problem for them it took a bunch of designs to make something workable.

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On a Squat related point, they really did get their Dwarf aesthetic down early and of all the model ranges, Dwarfs are generally the most consistently good looking of even their oldest miniatures.

Elves it took them a while to get consistently good, humans were often wonky armoured or otherwise chaos or not. Space Marines had problems and took a couple of years to get consistent. Orcs and other monster-y types could be a bit iffy but well Kev Adams basically nailed it into place, but multiple sculptors all worked on the Dwarf ranges and turned out consistently good miniatures.

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>>97451700 is still up but whatever, hello

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>>97628674
u sure about that?

>>97628626
>On a Squat related point, they really did get their Dwarf aesthetic down early and of all the model ranges
A shame it was all sacrificed on the altar of modernity

>>97628425
To be fair iirc they were also slow as shit making buying their version of the rhino a must but they were still good at melee unlike tau. They could coesist like they do in epic armageddon.

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On an unrelated note, it will be 40 years of 40k next year. Are any of you planning anything for that? Since projects tend to take their sweet fucking time to get ready and get going, it's often a good idea to think ahead.

>>97628882
At least Squats are still squats in Necromunda.
I don't touch modern Necromunda because just WTF is going on with that mess, but I appreciate someone over there gives a fuck about whatever hot shit it is they're up to. And kept them as Squats there specifically distinct from the leagues of whatever.

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>>97628410
Hey, /GROG/. I know it's an off-topic post, but there's no better place to ask. Oldhammer forums do not have a place for such a question, and I'd be damned befor I'll go into Facebook.
Thing is, everyone and everything around me recommend me that new Owlcat's Rogue Trader game. Well, the question is: how is it from the Oldhammer's fan perspective? Someone here must have played it.
I have huge doubts about it, both because I just do not have much faith in modern videogames in general, and because I profoundly despise everything that happened with WH40K during the last 26 years. And especially in the last 15 years. Fucking primaris, Great Rift, Cadia getting destroyed, fucking primaris, et cetera...
So, yeah... in a nutshell, how bearable that new Rogue Trader is through the Oldhammer lens? Should I try it, or forget all about it and just get to Rites Of War instead?

>>97631014
The videa is based on the fantasy flight ttrpg rendition rather than the original GW wargame with rpg elements. Its pretty different.

Anons, how does one build a list in Rogue Trader? I want to play the game but the rulebook is quite dense and I'm struggling.

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>>97635620
What army? There are various army specific lists released in white dwarf & the Realm of Chaos books, etc. Perhaps I can direct you towards the one you need.

>>97636131
Just space marines vs chaos marines (if possible) for the sake of playing the game. Could maybe finagle some Orks or Chaos Daemons.

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>>97635620
Take this with a grain of salt as I've never played RT (started 40k about 8 months after 2nd came out) but have owned all the books for decades. There are four types of entities in the game;
>personalities
A single hero that acts on there own.
>unit
A group of 5-10 models that act as one group together and must be in cohesion.
>unit with personality
Like a unit but contains a personality that acts with the unit and must stay in cohesion with the unit.
>other
Vehicles, dreadnoughts, and robots act as a singular character.

>Pure RT with GM
BRB only, GM creates a scenario and eyeballs two balanced forces and sets victory conditions known only to that involved player. GM builds the list. Unit composition examples are in the background section starting around page 137. GM has the option to random roll equipment.
>Pure RT NO GM
BRB only, Players agree on a scenario and victory conditions. To try to balance the game the players agree on a point value and build /their dudes/ using the point values on page 58. Unit composition examples are in the background section starting around page 137. Player can agree to use the option to random roll equipment.
>RT with DLC, RT 1.5 edition
Collect the supplement books. They have pre-made units and personalitys with set point values. Some orginization lists. Also a number of changes and erratas to the main rules.

Hope this is somewhat useful I went flipping through my books to remind myself. Hopefully if I'm wrong on something another anon will correct it. Pic of my 1st edition set, but like a dumb ass I forgot to add the seige book.

>>97636413
Okay then, looks as though there's a bit more work required than just building a regular 40K list, but that's not a bad thing. Thank you for the page references, I'll look into them and see what I can come up with.
Thanks a ton anon. Nice collection you've got there by the way.

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>>97636439
BRB is a mess, as for the books;
>Chapter approved
Pre-made scenarios with force list. Army list for Maines, Guard, Squats, Rogue Trader, Pirates (Imperium), Mercenaries, Orks, Eldar Raiders, Imperial Agents.
>Compilation
Army list for Grey Knights, Terminators, Traitor Terminators, Commissar training squads, Eldar Army list, Genestealer Cult Army list. Space Marine lore, Eldar Lore, Genestealer Cult Lore.
>Compendium
Marine lore, Imperial Guard Lore. Revised Dreadnought rules. Eldar war walker, spirt warriors and ghost warriors rules. Revised vehicle rules. Imperial vehicle profile rules. Revised shooting deviation rules. Crater rules. Revised robot rules. More Marine Army list. More Imperial Guard Army list. More Squat Army list. Harlequin Troup list.
>'Ere we go
Proper Ork Army list book.
>Freebooters
Ork Army list book for specialist and not so proper Orks.
>Waaargh Orks
Lore book about Orks, no rules or unit. Can be skipped if you don't care about Ork Kulture.
>Battle Manual
Revised weapon stats. Revised shooting rules, Revised hand to hand rules. Weapon effect templates.
>Realm of Chaos Slaves to Darkness
BRB for Khorne and Slaanesh for use with Fantasy, 40k, and WHFRP.
>Realm of Chaos Lost and the Damned
BRB for Nurgle and Tzeentch for use with Fantasy, 40k, and WHFRP.
>Vehicle Manual
Revised vehicle damage and movement rules
>Seige
Fantasy and 40k book about fortification rules and seige campaign play.

In short RT BRB only plays like a historical game. The other books make it more like what a modern player would think. I will claim that it can be said there is a 1.5 edition just due to ALL the changes during its life cycle.

>>97636715
Awesome, thanks for the run down on the books. I have scans of about half of that stuff, I don't suppose you know of an archive where I could grab the rest?

Also, if you happen to have an opinion on the topic, is it worth playing Rogue Trader over modern-esque RT clones like Renegade Scout etc?

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>>97636727
Not that anon but it can definitely be worth a go, just for the experience.
RT is a clunky fucker and well, really not that great in design because it was being shoved together at great haste and some chunks of it are complete crap; but it is absolutely playable, and its clunk is importantly on the side of comprehensible as it's trying to model things in a way that represents them directly. I genuinely would argue that this makes it perversely easier to learn than modern 40k which is abstracted to all fuck in its concepts and rules interactions.
RT might have charts and charts and charts, but don't let that scare you as the charts are all trying for that same goal of conveying things in the setting acting how they're supposed to, rather than for some idea of meta-gameplay effects and interactions. You're not gonna need to know everything about the game before you play in order to play.

Though as a noob trap to avoid: battle at the farm is a seriously unbalanced scenario so yanno maybe avoid that or if you do play it, beef up the Ork side considerably with like a dreadnought or a couple of buggies. And a little bit more terrain. And also don't worry about sticking too close to the published army lists, shit like the Guard one has a mandated 1100ish points of basic boring ass infantry to try and deal with if you go down that route which leaves you fucked if you want to try doing anything interesting in a reasonable sized game. Same goes for all the randomisation rolls. Build your armies with your opponent present, going for a particular scenario. You're always going to have to put in some work. And don't forget to name those characters that are about to get turned into paste by a random heavy bolter round.
And if nothing else it'll make you appreciate the streamlining in RS and give you a better understanding of how to convert over material for it if you get that far.

>>97637044
Thank you for the information anon, especially that bit about Battle at the Farm as I was going to use it as a first time players encounter.

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>>97636241
Realm of Chaos : Slaves to Darkness, is the book you need. It's also my personal favorite. It has rules for chaos marines & grey knights, which would be an adequate substitute/promotion for space marines if you plan to involve daemons in the game as they have the necessary weapons to combat them.

If you want the army list for just regular space marines it can be found in the 1989 40k Compendium, or in WD issue #105.

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Spegs and Sperglings, which version of old Epic is the best? I know most people play the new fanmade version of Epic or LI these days, but me and my mates want to go back and play one of the old ones to experience it and get a taste of a game we never got to play.
I think this is the one we should try? Epic from 1997. Beyond a few Firepower Magazines everything seems to be contained to the Army Book so it seems like a "one and done" sorta game which is nice.
We would probably want to do Guard or Marines vs Chaos.
Is Epic 1997 the best choice for an OG Epic experience, or should we go with Epic Armageddon from 2003, Space Marine from 1989 etc.
TIA for any help :)

>>97636727
>don't suppose you know of an archive where I could grab the rest?
Sorry no.
>modern-esque RT clones
Sorry I never looked into them.

RT got messy as hell. 2nd was a true 2nd edition (a let's clean all this shit up rather than a straight up money grab). Not to say anything to discourage you to give it a go. Also pay attention to the book release dates as it gives you what revision in the rules were in effect and reflected from that point on.

Like I said 2nd just came out when I started so nobody wanted to play the old edition with me. Though other than the chaos books I grabbed the rest from the discount/clearance/dead stock shelf at the stores. Heard plenty of fun stories from the time.
>guy brings a Space Marine force
>opponent brings his 60 goblin fantasy bowmen
>lol what
>you may have power armor but saving rolls can be failed, and your going to be making a lot of them
>gobbos win

>>97637325
Never played Armageddon, I own and played 89, and played some 97. My opinion I liked and enjoyed 89. When my local group tried 97 we proclaimed it as shit since they streamlined the units. Things like in 89 you had three different tank variants with different rules. Then in 97 the three different tank variants all had the same copy/paste rules. Wish I had a copy of 97 to give you good examples. If you get PDFs of the 89 and 97 rules look and compare Guard tanks and your'll see what I mean. The local group also got pissed they changed the base shape. Can't comment on Armageddon since I never played or seen it played.

>>97635620
Just vibe that shit brethren.

In all seriousness, the core book as a few examples of force organization. Imperial Army, Space Marines, Orks, and Eldar IIRC. These should give you a basic guideline on things. There are point values provided for every weapon covered in the book as well as for various stat levels.

Once you get the hang of navigating the book it's fairly easy to gin up whatever you want. There are dedicated army lists in the supplement books but honestly, I don't recommend them as anything other than guides.

>>97631014
By which >>97632124 means, it's completely different from RT. It's completely congruent with 2nd-through-5th_before_it_went_full_retard.

So I guess if what you're looking for is the Flanderizing themepark that some Oldhammer fans have built on the carcass of a version of 40K that only existed for a handful of years, you'll hate it. If you like what 40K actually was prior to the Gathering Storm/Primarchshit/Primarislop era, it's breddy great. It *technically* takes place in said slop era, but the place it's set is a backwater on the arse end of nowhere and it features none of the actual detail of the era - the warpstorm that is cutting you off from the rest of the galaxy is supposed to be "the Great Rift" but in practical terms it's just a warpstorm and it has no bearing beyond justifying your isolation and why you have to re-explore the region from scratch. It's basically a bubble of circa-4th Edition 40K fluff.

>>97637325
You can get a decent idea of whether you'll enjoy the original Space Marine/Titanicus system by watching people play the modern Legions Imperialis system and then thinking "would I like this if it was ~18% jankier and more annoying to play?".

'97 is hyper-streamlined, basically the complete opposite experience. I think it has its place if you want to play genuinely retardedly large battles, since the streamlining is actually a positive in that situation. Otherwise avoid.

Armageddon is basically the bowl of porridge that's Just Right. More granular than '97, but less frustrating to play than the OG system. It does a better job of realising the battles described in the 40K fluff than 40K does. Every faction is viable and well-defined, with thematic rules that make them feel different to play and give them unique tactics to employ, largely also without boxing you in and making you feel like you're just executing the same gimmick over and over again.

In short; OG is for people who want lots of detail and don't mind the jank it brings with it, '97 is useful for really big games but otherwise eh, and Armageddon is the "best" game in the sense of actually doing what it sets out to do and representing what it intends to represent in its mechanics.

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>>97638446
What >>97632124 said is pretty much obvious. I mean, if that game was based on the original Rogue Trader, I guess we'd all be upon it even if everybody else said it is the worst game in the universe. I know, I would have had to try the game based on the 80's fluff.
Though, I guess, in the Age Of Retards it is rather reasonable to state obvious things anyway, just to make it clear...

Now, what you say sounds pretty great. I do not hope for the Oldhammer game, flanderized or not, but I do hope for the game without Gathering Storm. I started with Dawn Of War, and the newest game I played was Space Marine - and I think those are awesome, especially if you use your fantasy and some mods. So... thank you for the answer, because a game set in the 4th edition sounds rather enjoyable.

>>97638479
Oh, ok. Thanks anon, I'll give Epic Armageddon a look. It shouldn't be too hard to find the rules.

>>97639082
The one mark against it is it does, unfortunately, feature some stuff based on the post-retardation 5th-through-7th period, so for example when you run into Necrons they will be Nucrons, and DEldar use the modern aesthetic rather than the 3rd Edition Bondage Elves look. Otherwise as someone who also despises modern Warhammer it's as good as it's going to get I think.

>>97638296
>Just vibe that shit brethren.
Shall do homie.

>>97636413
I would add that depending on what your goal is balance really doesn't matter. Scenarios and story as the driving force for having a game don't require it. If you want it to be competitive within that then you'd run the Scenario again but swap who controls which army.

>>97639082
>>97639114
It does help that it is a really good game. Actually one of the 40k games ever made I'd say. Partly because it uses its focus on being a Rogue Trader to explore vast chunks of the setting that have never really been touched outside of novels I guess. And general lack of Space Marines.
It's also manages that rare thing where it is genuinely, appropriately funny. The inherent silliness of the setting is there and manages to be maintained alongside the grim stuff very well. And manages to be interesting in exploration, gives a little bit of the wonder of exploring a chunk of the galaxy and finding cool and weird shit.
Does help to follow a character building guide though as that RPG system is a fucking nightmare for a learning curve, especially when you've got to do it for multiple characters. I appreciate what they were going for in the whole designing a system where teamwork is supposed to matter more than individual gear so you get really ludicrously strong by combo-ing all sorts of buffs and such to give people extra actions and more powerful actions, it's an interesting approach compared to the usual RPG design.

>>97639082
Remember the advertising for Boltgun had a 90s bedroom and a bunch of 90s warhammer stuff because it was a Doom style "retro" shooter.
And then all of the in game sprites were 2020s era miniature direct scans because you are allowed to have nostalgia for old shooters but not old warhammer.

>>97640434
Didn't bother playing Boltgun because there were so many good boomershooters around I just couldn't give a fuck about being nostalgia baited by a mediocre one.

>>97640434
>because you are allowed to have nostalgia for old shooters but not old warhammer.
what part of THOU SHALT NOT MENTION MINIATURES UNLESS THEY'RE CURRENTLY SOLD BY YOUR LORD AND MASTER did you not understand?

>>97628626
>On a Squat related point, they really did get their Dwarf aesthetic down early and of all the model ranges, Dwarfs are generally the most consistently good looking of even their oldest miniatures.
I agree with you about this, there's something fundamentally caricatural about the GW dwarf design that just clicks, and their chunky shapes are very compatible with metal casting.

>>97640380
It's a rare game in that it pretty much flawlessly executed the concept. The way it actually allows you to strut about like a Big Fucking Deal and there's no snarky eyerolling from NPCs about it(beyond that one guy in the prologue and the Inquisitor), even stuff as simple as implementing the idea from the tabletop RPG of not having a traditional currency system because you're far too important to dirty your hands with mere coinage you just have a generally known level of insane uberwealth and people fall over themselves to give you commensurate gifts to curry favour with you. And there's only one character build for me: maximising Momentum and any extra turn/action abilities and enjoying the show while Argenta righteously cackles her way through the whole opposing force singlehandedly :)

>>97639114
>so for example when you run into Necrons they will be Nucrons
Eh, I'm still not sure just how painful Nucrons are. Safe to say, I liked silent terminators multitudes more than whatever has been done with them.

>>97640380
>its focus on being a Rogue Trader to explore vast chunks of the setting that have never really been touched
Does it do that though? That was my main gripe against the game being named Rogue darn Trader, but on the surface it looks like the most mundane stuff imaginable.
I always thought Rogue Trader is someone who goes beyond, who meets aliens that were never even discovered before and whose retinue might as well be right away unimaginable heresy.
And on the cover, we have a space elf and a space wolf. Come on! Could they at least use someone other than a fucking space wolf?
If you ask me, Mentors were made for this role. It would be prime time to resurrect Mentors.
Anyway, yeah, on the surface this Rogue Trader vidya looks like the most bland stuff possible that can be made with the game named Rogue Trader, but that's why I'm here asking for an opinion. Which, I gotta say, is surprisingly positive, so I guess there's no way but to accept th inevitable and try the darn game.

>>97640434
That was definitely a low blow. That was the reason I still haven't tried Boltgun.

All in all, thanks to everyone who participated in this little discussion so far. It's been really interesting to hear /GROG/ thoughts about this one.

>>97628425
Only guilders used bikes. Everyone always gets this wrong. Squats were divided into Brotherhoods and the Engineers Guild, the latter of which used bikes and trikes. Brotherhoods were just dwarf warriors but with lasguns instead of axes and shields.

>>97637325
Epic Armageddon (4e) hands down (or actually, NetEpic Armageddon, the fan maintained living ruleset).
It strikes the right balance between smooth to play and crunchy enough to represent with enough detail the setting; morale, fitting the scale, is impactful, but easy to manage. Listbuilding is fun, varied and community balanced over the years (not perfectly, though).
Also very easy to try on Tabletop Sim or Vassal, and if you get physical models, translate to Epic 40k (the third edition, somewhat lacking in detail, but easy to resolve and good for *huge* battles).

And these two are the only worhwile ones IMHO. 2e is fun to read but it's just small-scale 40k, the rules are absolutely not a good fit for the scale, LImp is a bloated copy of 2e, and 1e is just a less refined 2e.

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>>97653247
It os funny how the special and heavy weapons looked cartoony over the top.

Playing some more retro40k later this month, will be playing a 1200 point game of 3rd edition with my blood angels and I'm feeling pretty excited about that, need to get some more work on them done before the day but that shouldn't be too much trouble, all the glaze work on the armour is done for them, we're now just down to detail work and building my dreadnought.

My list is as follows, it's just my initial 1500 point list cut down to fit. My opponent is bringing death guard(IA or 3.5, dunno), so it'll be interesting to see how this will go. Hopefully will have a nice battle report to share later.

HQ:
Commander Barachiel;
Artificer Armour, Iron Halo, Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Terminator Honours, frag grenades.
123

Elites:
Squad Auriel; Terminator Squad.
2 terminators with storm bolters and powerfists.
2 terminators with heavy flamers and powerfists.
Terminator sergeant Auriel with power sword and storm bolter.
230

Troops:
Squad Symeon; Tactical Squad.
7 marines with bolters, frag and krak grenades.
1 marine with plasma gun, frag and krak grenades.
1 marine with heavy bolter, frag and krak grenades.
Veteran sergeant Symeon with storm bolter, chainsword, frag and krak grenades.
211

Squad Peliel; Tactical Squad.
7 marines with bolters, frag and krak grenades.
1 marine with melta gun, frag and krak grenades.
1 marine with heavy bolter, frag and krak grenades.
Veteran sergeant Peliel with storm bolter, chainsword, frag and krak grenades.
215

Squad Palemon; Blood Angels Scout Squad.
4 scouts with bolt pistols and CCW, frag and krak grenades.
Veteran sergeant Palemon with bolt pistol, CCW, frag and krak grenades, teleport homer.
103

Fast Attack:
Squad Adeon; Assault Squad.
4 marines with bolt pistols, CCW, frag and krak grenades.
1 marine with plasma pistol, CCW, frag and krak grenades.
Veteran sergeant Adeon with bolt pistol, CCW, frag and krak grenades.
182

Heavy Support:
Ancient Barthilas; Dreadnought.
Twin Linked Lascannon, Extra Armour, Smoke Launchers.
135

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Any of you guys tried Rogue Hammer or Squad Hammer?

>>97663617
Wasn't really a fan of the squad hammer system. Wasn't what I was looking for.

>>97669370
Yeah I've kinda found that for myself. Ah well.

3rd ed Dark Eldar are kino kingshit but by fuck these metal Hellions will break me...

>>97671296
Godspeed anon, my brother gave up on his metal Hellions as a lost venture.

>>97671646
I can't fucking blame him.

>>97677854
Sweet looking table, a game of yours or something found in the wild?

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>>97679101
Found photography

Why doesn't GW just re-release all the old minis in resin?

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>>97683051
Nothing. They simply choose to only ever re-release them on a FOMO basis at exorbitant prices

>>97683236
You can find all of these made of actual metal on ebay loose for less
Holy shit

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>>97683051
Scanners are doing it for them

>>97691036
Alberthobbying, paints some lively stuff

>>97691036
>nightmare googles on
>everything is exactly the same

>>97684841
Yeah if you can deal with all the Super Sekrit Klubhouse bullshit these arsewipes subject you to.

>>97635620
Two very experienced anons already answered you but I will chime in having played the first 3 editions extensively. Just skip straight to 2nd edition. It is much easier to find resources for 2e online and the rules are a mile better. Rogue Trader is a great read and has amazing ideas that you can use even in other games, but as a raw, rules as written wargame. Frankly its a fucking trainwreck by modern standards. It was amazing at the time but it was clearly a beta. 2e is much more cleaned up and you will get the same Rogue Trader "feel" without the slog of hunting down statlines crammed into blocks of lore, and the general lack of playtesting gone. The part of 2e that doesnt work as well however is relying on very specific materials like psychic power cards that arent super easy to get a hold of, while Rogue Trader is designed to be played with absolutely nothing more than dice, tape measure, the core book, and whatever shit you can cobble together. Overall, dont let the complexity intimidate you, even just sit down and walk through a combat of two squads shooting at each other and just attack it phase by phase, and scale things up as you get comfortable. Homebrew up a fun story and enjoy.
I really wish GW would keep Rogue Trader in print. Im aware they do but you need to be physically present at their headquarters to buy it and second hand copies go for big money, and none of the expansions sans Realms of Chaos were printed.

>>97640434
>you are allowed to have nostalgia for old shooters but not old warhammer.
Boltgun doesn't play like old shooters either, it's full of 2016 Doom slop.

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>start playing some 2nd edition with a friend
>kind of suck with chaos marines (make poor choices)
>ask internet for ideas
>>put terminator armour and the mark of khorne on your chaos lord for a sweet 2+ save with 2D6
>>give a champion terminator armour and a blastmaster
>>your heroes are all pretty slow, but the solution is how crazy what kind of broken wargear combos you could get in 2nd edition, just put jump packs on them!
>>buy 3 veterans for <100pts so your opponent doesn't get VPs for killing some of them!
... I don't think anyone read their Chaos Codex back in the day, maybe that's why everyone thought Khorne was broken in this edition
I also originally saw the VP/pts table and thought the same for making fleabitten squads but then realised it meant a strong 200pt squad defeated is worth as much as 2 100pt squads who have no fun toys to play with, and I don't care about score anyway, for some reason unlike modern Games Workshop I'm just happy to be here because how a battle unfolds is too much fun

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>>97631014
>Well, the question is: how is it from the Oldhammer's fan perspective?
Middle-to-latehammer Dungeons & Dragons, made by Slavs, for a middle class American market that only cares about playersexual romances
It avoids some modern /v/ideogame issues that even Darktide didn't, by not making absolutely everyone ugly, ethnic and flat chested, instead meeting halfway, which is called conservative in this day and age

It was a walking advert for more modern models such as Arbites, Navis Breachers and Navigators but not excruciatingly so
Heavy handed laterhammer grimderp, firmly on the side of "Every evil is justified to preserve humanity", which isn't a question oldhammer asks

>Rites of War
No clue
Have fun
Caveat emptor

>>97683051
Because they haven't been updated for the Modern Audience™

>>97692474
>how crazy what kind of broken wargear combos you could get in 2nd edition
In my area if you saw a apothecary you killed that fucker as soon as you could. Characters could get wargear and apothecarys were the cheapest characters, so apothecary+jump pack+vortex grenade = allah akbar.

>>97694044
Lying fake grog. An apothecary could only take 1 wargear card. In your case that could be the vortex grenade OR the jump pack, but not both.

>>97694929
I guess an Apothecary on a bike with a vortex nade would still be annoying but not as flexible.
The cheaper 33pt Techmarine can have 3 wargear cards though.

>>97694929
>>97695403
Given how everyone broke the rules, and still do, I can't see why suicide apothecaries would be unheard of, I think even the orks had throwaway characters too
>on a bike
Getting expensive now

Someone started making a Battlescribe/NewRecruit data module for 40k 4th edition

https://github.com/Kothra/Warhammer-40-000-4th-Edition-for-NewRecruit

Please encourage him

>>97628425
nice models

Does anyone here have the original 1st founding legion/chapter numbers from rogue trader? I remember seeing a table a while ago from before the first founding chapters all had their current numbers and it had a few differences but I can't find a table like it anywhere. I remember for certain though that the Night Lords weren't the VIII Legion but had a different number.

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>>97708674
It's missing a few legions, like the Emperor's Children and Word Bearers. The Iron Hands were completely absent though.

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>>97697958
A Jump Pack is 10pts while the Bike is 20pts.

>>97708674
Not totally sure but I believe the back of the Space Marine game box was the first time Chapters were given numerals, see pic.

Ultramarines and Emperors Children later had their numbers swapped, as did Salamanders and Night Lords.

I've never actually looked to see if the other Chapters, later Legions, were numbered or if those were only added when second edition hit and the full 20 Legion list was created.
Wouldn't be surprised if they changed it because this early numbering creates a situation where early chapters stayed loyal while later chapters joined Horus rather than it being more mixed.

>>97692169
genuinely how do you get into this? I've been looking for scans of old fire dragons and similar from 2000 and people only ever have new ones or rogue trader ones. idk who or what to look for

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Hey anons, can one of you please explain to me the Points Value Modifiers explained here?
Sorry, I'm not super bright and I'm struggling to understand.

>>97709770
Thank you

>>97713479
If the total point value of the mode, before weapons, gear, etc. is greater than 10, multiply it by the value in the
>multiply by
column that lines up with the point value range in the
>Score as formula
There are specific additional modifiers for flying/burrowing creatures, which adds 5/10% whichever is higher, to the base value before multiplying.
Armour saves via inherent armour are worth 0.5 of a point per 1 on a D6 it is a save of. ie %+ armour save costs 1 point.
Horses cost 5 minimum.

>>97636131

> Daemon Weapon 900pts

>>97716121
A daemon weapon has a bound daemon in it, which is very likely to be a a greater daemon or daemon prince. They have a giant pile of special rules, and also just insta-kill pretty much anything, and confers a bunch of the daemon's abilities on the wielder. And if desperate, they can pop the daemon out of the blade for a bit, with uncertain results after a turn. But hey, dumping a greater daemon level threat on the table for a turn, might not the worst of ideas even if it backfires after that. Chaos for Chaos's sake.

Still at least in RT you've got at half a chance of dumping a multimelta in the guy carrying it's face before they get somewhere with it. Or vortex grenade them. Or stasis grenade them. And so on.

I assume that Rogue Trader is a bit wonky due to being a product of it's time.
Is there a fan balance edition of it to have a better experience with it?
I fear that waacfaggery from modern Warhammer has poisoned even casual games.

>>97722583
RT is completely impossible to balance through mechanics alone by its very nature and concept so if someone wants to WAAC with it, the best option is to just not play them.
It needs player cooperation and potentially third party moderation (a GM) working towards the goal.

>>97722583
>>97723810
>the best option is to just not play them
Sincerely, this. I actively don't play with WAACfags and my gaming experience has been sterling for well over a decade. Simply cut them out of your options and leave them on their own. They'll either learn to not be a WAACfag because nobody will play with them or they'll die alone, either way your gaming improves for its lack of them.

>>97726112
This.
Balance is but a dampener, the true issue is the WAAC, competitive minded players that simply cannot fathom the idea of playing a scenario for its own enjoyment.
Once you begin actively segregating WAACfags away from your games, you'll find the lack of perceived balance and open ended nature of 3e fantasy/RT inconsequential, and your gaming time will become quite lovely.

>>97714641
Thank you anon, one more question if you please. Does this greater than 10 rule apply to things like minor heroes and champions, or just "creatures"??

How does Chaos Cult in 2nd edition summon Daemons if none of their models can bear Marks of Chaos? Taking chaos space marines as an ally?

>>97730458
Everything with a profile is a "creature" for that purpose.
------
I ran a human minor hero through it just to make sure I wasn't wrong so might as well copy that into here.

p60 Human Minor Hero - 36 points.

p138 Human Minor Hero profile - 4 5 5 4 4 2 5 2 8 8 8 8

5 + 0 + 1 + 0.5 + 1 + 1 + 4 + 0.5 + 4 + 0.25 + 0.25 + 0.25 + 0.25 = 18

multiply by 2 for being over 10 between 16 - 20 = 36pts

>>97733282
Taking a Cult Icon Bearer with the Warp Banner from the Chaos Icons on page 70 is the only way without taking Chaos Space Marine allies.

I don't have WD204 on hand to check this but I found a collection of Q&A stuff noting that WD issue with this question and the answer was the Icon, Allies and just have fun and make a scenario with custom rules for why the daemons spawn for some reason.

>>97733412
Thank you for your help anon, you've been super helpful.

>>97733528
Oh wow, I didn't realize that the warp banner works as all marks of chaos, thank you very much!

>>97742843
KINOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>97742843
Good stuff

>>97736690
What's the tall wight/lich model from? Looks really neat.

>>97743381
ZN games netherworld liche

>>97742843
Any protips how to make those ork huts?

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I came across a very interesting website today that hosted a bunch of pictures of the Armorcast models that were released between 1995 and 1998. I had no idea these existed and some of them are really cool!
For your viewing pleasure:
https://web.archive.org/web/20030220044740fw_/http://www.armorcast.com/warhammer40k/

>>97745142
This archive link appears to have stopped working the second I posted about it. So, uh... here's a link to the citadel miniature collecting wiki's page about these models: http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Resin_Vehicles_%26_Titans#Armorcast

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>>97744636

>>97744636
https://youtu.be/jQgIfbsEr7A?si=lrswhrp80qko1kKC
https://youtu.be/_83o02_bBzE?si=OpMzyL4sydIx23Xv
Here's some good videos about it too
Highly recommend

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>>97628410
What's a good program for writing custom Codices?

>>97750547
I've been using a cracked version of word for my homebrews.

>>97744474
Nice thanks anon.

>>97750839
>searches company
>dude's been dead for 2+ decades
bummer

>>97750547
LaTeX is the ultimate tool if you're into turbo nerdism/autism. They also have templates to make it easier. For instance, there are templates for having the same retro-layout in D&D. Some turbo nerd should do something similar for 40k as well. It's free (as in freedom and as in free beer)

I use Word (and to some extent Powerpoint) to layout my stuff, it works fine. But that type of (codex type) layout is usually done in a special software such as MS Publisher or Affinity Publisher.

LaTeX is the most powerful option, Affinity Publisher is quite popular. PowerPoint is the easiest.

For reference, here's my retro 40k-inspired thing I made using just MS Word:
https://hexhunt.itch.io/psychonics

>>97750666
>>97750547
And if you want to use word but dont want to pay, just get LibreOffice. It's "libre".

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And I'll just leave this here.

>>97754147
And?
it's a bunch of empty folders, upload the material first you nigger

>>97754147
Why would it include 2nd ed 40k but not 4th ed fantasy

Retarded

>>97755226
There's been a concerted effort recently by an extremely sad wee poofter to push a hyper-purist interpretation of what the thread is about. Look at the title which has been tweaked from "GW Retro and Oldhammer General" to "GW Retro/Oldhammer General", an attempt to imply the two terms are just different ways of expressing the same narrow thing rather than a deliberate distinction between Oldhammer and the more expansive Retro Warhammer.

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I often see 4e Rulebook+3e Codexes being recommended over playing "pure" 3e or 4e. What is the benefit of doing so? Were 4e rules a clear upgrade to 3e? Were 4e codexes THIS shit for real?

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>>97755896
>Look at the title which has been tweaked from "GW Retro and Oldhammer General" to "GW Retro/Oldhammer General",

What? I've always titled it "GW Retro/Oldhammer General".

>>97756875
The only real thing is that some of the later 4e codexes were bad (in particular CSM). I was the one who made the image crossing out everything after and including Eldar just based on how the codexes are designed on a general level, but the only significant changes from 3rd in the case of Eldar are the addition of the Autarch and that Warlocks can't take runes (and the removal of some named characters that never had models).

I quite like 4th edition 40k. Dark Eldar and Tau were rather fun then :)

>>97758523
I've always wanted to play against Tau, they look like an interesting conundrum to be solved as an opponent.

>>97758542
The sheer amount of options the Tau have in 4th is honestly amazing and makes them super fun to play with, I just hope they're also fun to fight lol my mate has never complained so that's something.

>>97758675
Yeah that's why I think they look fun to go up against, I like to fight games that are uphill struggles and seeing all the toys that the Tau have at their disposal makes them look challenging.

Anyone happen to have Fabelzel chaos dwarf/hobgoblin STL files?
I'd only need the hobgoblin archers, but anything's fine.
All I'm finding is a bunch of reworks and that the drive was taken down.

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Planned Flesh Tearers captain. I am thinking the meltagun torso is best.

>>97759823
You can strip the metal parts easy by just dropping them into acetone and letting them sit for like an hour

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Anyone fancy dropping a few thousands on this?

>>97759911
Or even better, in nitro solvent for a minute.

>>97692474
Around here it was the goddamned maxed out Sorcerer of Tzeentch on a disk with inferno bolts and maybe a power field. A 2++ save cannot be adequately balanced by a melee nerf when mobility options are available and charges are relatively difficult to pull off, and attacks that bypass armor and invulns (even at S4) that instakill can only be balanced by pricing it to the point that it can never make back its points...which it actually kind of was without the disk, or if your dice rolling was shit. It just never seemed to go that way when I was on the receiving end.

>>97722583
It's not a bit wonky, it's very wonky. It doesn't work without cooperative players and/or a very firm GM that's willing to put in the hours rebalancing points costs. It can be done (I've seen it) and had you asked me 34 years ago I would have had our GM's handout to show you how he did it, but that's long lost to the sands of time.
>yes, that glorious motherfucker went through every single unit and piece of wargear in the game and recalculated the points cost for most of them, and then he printed out copies for everyone during the dot matrix printer era
>everyone was convinced that they'd gotten fucked, but everyone continued to play
>which meant that he probably got it just about right

>>97756875
4th Edition's core rules are basically 3rd Edition - 2nd Edition. They tidy up, consolidate, clarify, and just generally moderately improve upon 3rd, and work pretty much seamlessly with 3rd codexes. The reason people don't advocate using straight-up 4th is that the *codex* design philosophy in that period doesn't neatly align with the editions - you have a period starting in mid-3rd and ending in mid-4th that contains all the best-regarded codexes of the period like CSM and Guard 3.5, the Inquisition books, 4th SM, 4th BT etc which all have that similar vibe in their design: separate armoury to choose equipment from, lots of detailed rules for subfactions in some cases, in others whole systems for creating custom subfactions, etc etc. Then in the middle of 4th post-Tau the design philosophy changes again; no more armouries everything is consolidated into the units(with a lot of "pointless" flavour options culled), no more subfaction stuff, everything blandified.

It's a sweet spot.

>>97759043
I think I do, but I'm away from the computer at the moment. I'll try to remember to get them to you.

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>>97759043
Sadly not anymore, I regret deleting files after I got mine done since they were removed from drive shortly after. Such a nice sculpts, they were pleasure to paint.

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>>97754147
>Oldhammer Fantasy
>1st to 3rd Editions
>Fiction
>Gotrek & Felix
Nigga, those were Black Library titles. Trollslayer was published a few months before 6E launched, they really aren't representative of Warhammer 1-3E fluff or style
You could've at least picked the Boxtree novels or something, which includes the anthology that Gotrek & Felix first appeared in

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>>97770224
>>97771102
for some reason no one has them or are not willing to share because hurr the creator removed them
well, thanks for checking anyway, nice gob lads

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BOYL news.

Might have already had the last BOYL at Stoke Hall :(

Think the very first BOYL was when Foundry was still in a normal building, been out at East Stoke ever since, wonder what the future holds.

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>>97776898
Hey, sorry I forgot to reply. I definitely have those files on my computer, at least a few of them including the archers. I'll upload them somewhere when I get home from work.

>>97782503
I thought you are the anon posting the gobs above lol
Cool, I'd be grateful

>>97782503
Heh, I see you painted yours orange too, looks nice. Do you play TOW with them or something else?

>>97786225
Nah I use them for AD&D. I just love the sculpts. Hobgoblins in the classic D&D sources are described as orange to red in color.

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>>97776898
>>97759043
https://litter.catbox.moe/jzoouqv9w2nm5qlw.zip
https://litter.catbox.moe/dw4l2murkyha18lx.zip
https://litter.catbox.moe/a6puaihxhlh7gc85.7z
https://litter.catbox.moe/q7ikg6et0phf5bvt.7z

Here's everything I have except for wolf riders. For whatever reason litterbox didn't like that file.

Thanks for being patient.

>>97790379
NTA, but I'd appreciate the wolf riders if you manage to upload them.

>>97790449
I'll see what I can do,.

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Does having two pistols do anything in 2nd ed except give 1 more attack? Can you shoot both of them at the same time?

>>97790537
Good sites to try for temporary file sharing are pixeldrain and dropmefiles.

>>97790569
You cannot fire both at the same time but it does give you extra attack in melee. Only Cypher can fire both his pistols at the same time AFAIK.

>>97790379
Thanks! I hope these are not full of dolphins...

>>97771652
>Boxtree novels
Do you have a link for them? I'd appreciate this.

Was there an adeptus mechanicus army colour scheme depicted with green eyes?

Has it ever been leaked what the 3rd/4th edition Codex: Alienhunters was going to look like? Or any info regarding it at all?

>>97806819
Sadly not, the only mention of it was at the end of the development notes article in white dwarf for the witch hunters release. If there was any development then it was most likely discarded after seeing the sales metrics for daemon and witch hunters. A goddamn shame, really.

>>97628626
I believe the jester is a pre-slotta base mini, named "Corbitt Shortstuff". Sometimes I've heard it described as a goblin serving as the jester at a dwarf king's court. Also, possibly treacherous.

>>97806819
>>97806903
I thought it got folded into the Deathwatch Chapter Approved? If the various DW releases over the years have been anything to go on, there wasn't as much variety compared to GK or SoB, more small skirmish units for kill team sized games. Once a xenos problem is large enough for mass battle the inquisition is just requisitioning whoever's around in their existing formations.

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>>97801125
Its 2004ish HH CCG art so not sure if /grog/ but I remember it being so at least this far back before there were 'official' models.
A bunch of the RT-3rd ed admech art is black & white or just blanche doing the red and 50 shades of beige.

>>97754147
>Trollcow is attempting to exclude 4th & 5th edition fantasy like he excluded 2e from /osrg/
Holy shit does it ever end?

>>97807557
>trollcow
Fuck off fishfag.

>>97792217
>Only Cypher can fire both his pistols at the same time AFAIK.
And Seraphim

>>97808456
Oh yeah thats right! I got bunch of old metal sisters for a decent price and I'm building a sizeable force of them for 2nd edition. I decided to use Imperial Agents as an ally and get squad of five 5 Electro Priests and use Arco Flagellants as a models for them. Then I'll add a single repentia model as Confessor to the squad and use It as a Sister Oblatia. Whole squad will be frenzied and never breaks, fits into a Immolator or a Repressor and complements otherwise shooting heavy sisters army nicely.

>>97628626
does someone producing imperial dwarfs like wargames atlantic landsknect ogres?

>>97809416
Wargames foundry under warmonger miniatures as their range of dwarves are largely in that style. also https://www.oldschoolminiatures.co.uk/dwarfs

There's a few more out there in the more late medieval/landsknect style than early medieval style somewhere for sure, especially in 3d prints land.

>>97807557
DUDE FUCK THE FUCK OFF FISHFAG HOLY SHIT

>>97808827
Only five models fit in an Immolator.

>>97811413
Oh dang that's right, I need to rethink how to deploy them then.

>>97807557
brOSR is expanding, DEAL WITH IT BITCH

>>97757588
I don't think I'll ever forget the incredible disappointment our whole group experienced when the 4th edition Chaos codex came out. Even the non-Chaos players felt sorry for its owners. What a comedown from that 3.5 peak.

I don't mean to perhaps retread familiar ground on this topic, I can see it has been discussed, but what exactly is the deal with the old codexs and rule sets being used seemingly interchangeably in grog spaces.

>>97818470
What do you mean interchangeably?

>>97818470
Yeah, I don't follow here.

>>97818470
3rd edition Codexes are basically compatible with 4th edition rules.
4th edition rules are generally seen as an improvement over 3rd, or at least cleaned up and clarified.
mid-to-late 4th editon codexes have less options and customization so many prefer the 3rd ed ones and its not a big deal.
Not sure what other cases there would be.

>>97820675
Ah, if we're talking about that then there's a couple other examples:
>3rd ed fantasy is mostly compatible with Rogue Trader, particularly via the Realm of Chaos and Siege books.
>4th ed fantasy is compatible with 5th ed, though it might be necessary to convert some magic and wargear, particularly if backporting (Cards from both editions are also compatible with Warhammer Renaissance, for the three people that play it)
>6th ed fantasy army books are mostly compatible with 7th edition, again, with some minor jank
Generally speaking, most editions are somewhat compatible with army books from the previous edition, often needing some sort of errata, as this allowed you to play you army while waiting for the new codex to drop.
Of course, 3rd edition and prior don't really have this feature as individual army books weren't a thing back then.

Ps. God, this new captcha is utter shit, I've guessed correctly a bunch and somehow haven't been able to pass it.

>>97628636
That middle one kicks ASS

>>97818470
Most of us are playing with friends who we've played with for decades, you take the best bits of various rulesets and codexes to suit your army and your opponents and then play for fun, instead of being bound by deliberately constricting rules made to force you to buy the latest Jew-Dubya product.

>>97821131
>ARMY BOOKS AREN'T CODEXES ARGGHDKDJGFDGJ
Hadn't dipped into fantasy armies, makes sense there would be cross over there too.

>>97628410
I want to make heroic scale STLs.
Not really proxies for 40k but that is a big maybe.
How does one do heroic scale right when digitally sculpting minis?
And how does one capture the oldhammer look of minis when digitally sculpting?
I plan on using Blender.

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>>97834408
Use Zbrush, blender is not "THE BEST" for sculpting per say
and you capture the look just by following your given references as closely as possible, you're not making them look bad on purpose or anything but shoot for chunky imperfection

>>97834408
I think a good way to go about it at first would be to attempt to copy a sculpt you like at least somewhat closely. That should let you get a feel for design quirks.

>>97837892
I'm too scared of infecting my PC so I stick with Blender.
And I also decided to use Linux instead of W11 so it was a liberation and handicap at the same time so there are compatibility problems I have to work around that just sucks.
>and you capture the look just by following your given references as closely as possible
>'re not making them look bad on purpose or anything but shoot for chunky imperfection
>shoot for chunky imperfection
I think this is what I needed.
I might ask for more advice in a later thread. I don't want to keep spamming these questions in hopes a different anon comes in and posts more advice.

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>>97838553
Yea you just have to like get them to that "slightly moist gym sock" level of stank, it's much harder than that to actually describe but you get what I mean

>>97628410
>>97628410
Wassup GROG, recently got into oldhammer after finding a youtube channel of a guy that does exclusively 2nd edition 40k stuff, and I just had a few questions

(Sorry if this is controversial btw) what is the generally accepted time period editions wise of oldhammer stuff? I was looking a lot into 3rd edition, because im a steel legion player, and 3rd is when they released ASL

Secondly, what are the drawbacks and benefits of the different editions? Ive only ever played 10th edition, so im pretty clueless when it comes to the older stuff

Thanks in advance!

>>97841743
Ah, classic way to keep the thread afloat. I'm a steel legion player too and play exclusively 2nd edition, the best edition. You might like 3rd, 3.5, or 4th better if you enjoy simple and straight forward games instead of large pile of different templates, cards and random tables. 2nd isn't as wild as RT but more compressed and familiar with codexes. 2nd is also lot smaller in scale than what ever came after it. It will thought require a quite a bit of work to get started since you'd need a lot of different cards and templates but everything can be found online.

FFR this is oldhammer and retro thread, so it's alright to talk about 3rd for example. Welcome aboard.

>>97841891
Sorry if I came across as a bumpfag lol, just genuinely curious. Thanks for the info!

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Lead & Steel Oldhammer event was on in Sheffield UK this weekend.

It was brilliant. Maybe better than BOYL.

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So I fell down a bit of a bit of an internet rabbit hole regarding Warhammer Fantasy 3rd Edition after picking up the Realm of Chaos books while visiting Warhammer World. Then I got drunk one night and ordered (thankfully pretty decent condition copies) of the core rulebook and army book on ebay. Now, this game came out 5 years before I was even born. I own zero period correct miniatures. Nevertheless, I want to give the game a decent crack, so wondering what you guys would recommend for actually giving it a go on the tabletop, or how you do it yourselves. Should I maek an effort to track down some original minis, are there any companies that make similar/aesthetically suitable proxies, should I just use TOW minis, should I use whatever the fuck I can find that vaguely resembles the unit profiles?

>>97849143
Use whatever works best for you, that's the spirit of the game. Back in the day, you'd see models from other companies in official battle reports and the like. Similarly, many Oldhammer bloggers use both old and current models for kitbashing and building their armies. Creativity is more important than historical accuracy here.
As for the game itself, make sure you've got a player acting as referee and that you've come up with an interesting scenario. The rules shine at their best when you do something more than a mere pitched battle. Likewise, balance is not exactly something achievable or important, so follow your heart.

>>97849143
>Should I maek an effort to track down some original minis, are there any companies that make similar/aesthetically suitable proxies, should I just use TOW minis, should I use whatever the fuck I can find that vaguely resembles the unit profiles?
Yes.
That is, make a mix of whatever fits your chosen aesthetic, as long as the units look like what they should be mechanic-wise (melee is melee, ranged is ranged, heavy armor is heavy armor, etc.) few people should mind.
A heaping helping of bonus points for greenstuffing/converting the outliers to fit the army.

>>97849143
>>97850047
Which faction, BTW?

>>97849143
I'd say use what you have to try it out, then if you find it something you want to stick with you can start putting together a "proper" force.

>>97849143
>OG minis
it can be surprisingly cheap.
middhammer tends to command a higher price actually it's weird.
Mind you i've been hunting RT orks and got like 24 of them for like a fraction of what people try to sell the plastic goffs for.
Check out a couple UK sellers.

>>97850116
>a fraction of what people try to sell the plastic goffs for.
As in the shitty 2ed ones everyone was trying to offload to no avail back then?

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2e
>more or fire (if your table says turning is movement for heavies then this is important)
>declare range and target, then calculate
>artillery die, misfires are duds however no limit to scatter
>2" blast, template rules; coinflip hit for anyone not wholly under
>Strength 4, -1 to Saves (Flak armour is still 6+)
>can penetrate up to a motorcycle if you roll a 6, in case the marine riding it didn't die you are legally allowed to try for worse odds at continuing to fail to kill him
So basically anti-turtle X-Ray slightly stronger grenade hitting on 6s.
Am I wrong in thinking these are overcosted when heavy bolters and autocannons are cheaper?
Same with the griffon mortar.

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Hi /grog/. Just printed out a copy of this to play. Anyone have a good source for epic scale Fighta Bommerz and Thunderbolts? I could use chits but planes would be cool.

>>97851065
Turning is NOT a movement for heavy weapons, but it is for support weapons. If you roll a HIT then it won't scatter, there are two HITs on scatter die. Take a slick crew upgrade for a whole squad of mortars for potential second shot. Griffon synergizes perfectly with the mortars, being able to dent bigger targets like tanks and light vehicles more easily. Sure they are little expensive, but when used properly they are quite a powerful asset. They can soften the target if you are going forward or staying back.

Heavy weapons squad 60
-Mortar 20 x 2
-Heavy Bolter 10
-Slick Crew 20

Total 130 points

I got two of these with the Griffon and used them to great extend to support my Armoured Fist squads. Thuddgun also works with them but to a lesser extend since its indirect firing capability is worse.

>>97852276
>there are two HITs on scatter die.
Oh, for some reason I thought only one side was a hit.
>slick crew
I wish dead eye let you reroll one dice in the squad if it's a blast template, just getting bad luck.

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>>97846973
Sick, I saw some photos on the FB group

>>97846854
I really love the industrial design that Chaos had in the late 2nd edition and early 3rd edition. Cables and rivets everywhere, with that Dreadnought being a great example. With Helbrutes they went back to Rogue Trader era curved surfaces with fleshy bits.

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>looking back at Oldhammer blog posts from like 2010-2015 when the scene started becoming a community
>dead URLs, broken image links to Photobucket and Imgur, comments from people who have since died

Man. Especially with BOYL looking like it's no longer at Stoke Hall, it does feel a bit like the Elves have started sailing west.

All we can do is kindle the flame in our own ways.

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A nice haul of some fun stuff for 25€. Can anyone tell what the long, thin weapon just above the ork is?

>>97854608
Looks like a lasgun to me.

>>97854644
Thanks, you're right anon. I ended up taking a better pic and google lensing it. Seems to be a RT era lasgun.

>>97855208
RT imperial guard lasgun, came with the plastic guardsmen kit and along with the plastic arms for the metal minis as a spare

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>>97853105
I'd honestly suggest archiving the fuck out of as much material as possible.

I've been saving images for many, many years but really shittily for the sake of just posting rather than archival purposes. Not grabbing whole blogs that can and have disappeared. Though still got a shitload bookmarked.
Might even be worth seeing if internet archive has grabbed versions of pages that still have the pics on and taking copies from there.

>>97850168
>As in the shitty 2ed ones everyone was trying to offload to no avail back then?
Yeah but RTB13 as well to be fair.
might be that i've gotten lucky but the RT leads have been more reasonable.
even if the average RT ork is like 7 USD the average plastic is like 4 which is too damn high for that.

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Hi Grog, I got a friend into 4th and he really likes AdMech, but as you know they had no codex till 7th. There was a list on New Recruit, but it just boils down to a very lazy reskin of early 3rd IG.
I remember a few months ago someone talked about another homebrew AdMech codex, but I can't find it.
Could anyone help me with this?

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Is it haram to use 30k-specific plastic models if I want to make a small army for an earlier edition? While they might be a bit anachronistic in a real world kinda way if it comes to playing say, 4th Edition, I was thinking that the current range of vehicles like the Deimos Predator naturally still lend well to Red Scorpions, seeing their aesthetics rely on some former Forge World designs, and the MkIV set available currently also hasn't been updated to monopose yet - still having a lot of tactical marine options too.

Otherwise I would probably try Daemonhunters or some shit and get GK models, though the army list looks kinda spartan.

>>97863099
Ah yeah, you're thinking of the Tim Hucklebery trial list, a good run at a 3rd/4th edition idea of them as an army, a pity it didn't go further than it did, still, at least the list is complete. Can't attach PDFs anymore, but here's a link to it for you. Scrambled in the usual way.

aHR0cHM6Ly9tZWdhLm56L2ZpbGUvVmVKaUhaakIjVHNCcC1CdkNpZlJzMXZvVUJITkhISFRzeHpfbXk5bU5WSTA1elRKQUQ1aw==

>>97864103
Nah, you'd be fine, it's a bout the vibe, the attitude, and the game. Love the plastic Mk.IV marines, I use the kit throughout both my Iron Snakes and Blood Angels and I use those armies exclusively for retro40k editions.

>>97864209
Thanks, anon!

>>97628447
>Epic
Is Epic covered under /Grog/ or /Awgg/? I've been picking up some net epic games, and I am impressed at how solid it is as a game. Not sure if the thread has any extra Epic resources.

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>>97865141
/awg/ gets far more attraction on it, though there has occasionally even been flare ups of some kind of other small scale/epic threads outside of there, largely because of Epic being an actively played system (with Legions Imperialis being a kind of weakass successor game that has really fell off). Classic Epic is still technically under the retro banner and you'll see it on a lot of the youtube channels and blogs that cover old 40k and such like crown of command or bring and battle.

It's genuinely a way more actively loved and played (regular tournaments as well as just club/at home games) system still I think than anything oldhammer, in either 2nd edition/titan legions (basically 2nd+patching), NetEpic (that+1 edition) or especially NetEpic Armageddon (4th revised and continuing edition). Hell, people even still play 3rd. Or a revised 3rd. It's genuinely been GW's best overall system barring a really weird and clunky 1st edition where they didn't understand how to do big scale, and in Epic Armageddon their best game system even beyond being good for a GW game.

>>97865141
>Is Epic covered under /Grog/ or /Awgg/?
You want /gwsg/.

>>97865857
do they even give a fuck about anything that isn't LImp?

>>97865874
>LImp
That's /HHG/

>>97865874
Nobody gives a fuck about LIgma, people play Epic Armageddon, NetEpic, or whatever the version those two morphed into was.

>>97744474
Thanks dude

>>97865573
Appreciated.

>>97860459

I think the Oldhammer movement is basically dead outside of a spots like this. It needed to have people get working clones of the various Oldhammer rule sets out fairly quickly, and the trickier part, it needed people to get reasonably priced models in production that fit the aesthetic.

>>97868473
I think the model part is mostly a non-issue nowadays, there's lot of Oldhammer style sculptors, such as Knightmare and Satyr, other companies that sell models from the era like Foundry and then a blooming 3d scanning scene with a growing collection of 80s and 90s models to print on the cheap.
Rules on the other hand seem to me one of the most difficult parts of keeping Oldhammer alive. For one, they're increasingly unavailable and falling apart. Then, the rules themselves aren't exactly the most streamlined or easy to understand. Whilst players nowadays look for 1-2 hour games without a ton of rules, sometimes even with the ability to play solo, Oldhammer tends to be more of a 5+ hour affair with lots of book flipping and ideally a GM to run the scenario.
There are also no real retro clones or mainstream games that capture the spirit of the era. Closest I can think of would be Warhammer Renaissance, which is a really nice retool of 4-6th (so not very Oldhammer).
The blokes from Ramshackle games are sort of trying to get a simplified version of 3rd edition fantasy to try and get a Realms of Chaos community going, maybe something good could come from that.

>>97684841
wait i thought the old metal cadians were never scanned

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>>97868473
?????????????????
?????????????????????????????
?????????

I don't think you really understand what Oldhammer is. This isn't some OPR type situation where we need a daddy figure to tell us what to buy and what to use.

>>97868996
They are, and I'm kicking myself for not grabbing them before that big telegram purge 2ish years ago now. Now if you want them you're either searching high and low or you're trying to get into the good boy club on telegram to have the privilege of paying for them.

>>97868946
>There are also no real retro clones
Renegade Scout has 2 editions.
Planet 28 is specially RT themed.

>>97873454
True, I was thinking more about Fantasy, not much of a 40k player nowadays.

>>97868473
You say that as if it's a bad thing.

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>>97873454
Planet 28 has a reasonably priced "final edition" Kickstarter at the moment. Just after I bought one of the final copies of the 2nd edition lel

>>97875790
>>97873454
do you guys suggest those over say playing older editions of 40k or something?
what's the selling point?
i have a lot of guys in my local scene that are down for weird games, novelties and the like but i can't sell older warhammer to.

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hey fellas,
i have some old lead minis and i want to strip them without having any adverse effects on these guys.
is LA's totally awesome fine or should i look for something else, what's the best and safest in your opinions?

>>97876107
acetone also works fine for lead minis
Dip it in and just scrub with an old brush and most of the paint besides the super stuck in corners should be stripped off

>>97876107
>best
nitro solvent
>safest
not nitro solvent

>>97876061
Planet 28 didn't do it for me, more granular and gribbly than I tend to like. Same for Renegade Scout, but they're both attempts at making something like RT but easier to use, so if you want that it might work. I think they miss in a way, retroclones work for osr because the setting isn't nearly as cohesive or integral as with warhammer stuff.

>>97873756
I think you're right for fantasy, that small but not quite skirmish engagement range with half a dozen blocks of smaller size doesn't seem as popular outside of Dragon Rampant, which is fun but pretty generic rather than warhammer related.

>>97869402
I never implied that anyone needed to tell us what to do. I was just saying that it would have helped had there been more options for easily available clones and mini's that fit the vibe.

>>97873454
The 1st edition of Renegade Scout certainly counts, particularly with it's appendix for converting oldhammer 40k stats to the game. However IIRC the 2nd edition dropped that and moved away from the whole bit. Fantasy has no solid clone I'm aware of.

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I've ventured the idea in the thread before but I think that WHFB doesn't get so much attention in retroclones (though there is now Warhammer Renaissance for 4th-5th) because, well, basically there's no point.
If you want 1st-3rd, you can just play them. 3rd is a mess but it's only what, 2 books, 5 at most if you want to add realms of chaos and siege? And that mess is pretty much its entire flavour. And because of how fantasy's development worked over the years, sliding from edition to edition with mostly iterative improvements (not always improvements mind you, but the game saw far fewer overhauls and major changes between editions than 40k) rather than radical changes after 4th being made, there's just clustering around chunks of the game as it stands with players just playing 3rd, or 4th-5th, or 6th, or 8th+.

And beyond that, if you look at the rank&file wargame arena these days there's just not much appetite for an '80s style one with so much focus on individuals. That stuff is left for big skirmish stuff/blob games with like half or less the miniature count, where block shaped unit games followed the design trends that WHFB steadfastly ignored but rather that Warmaster was dipping into, the ones set by DBA and the like of more fast play, abstract detail, and more abstract scale units that are less intent on modelling moving in weirdly fine detail.

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>2nd ed chaos
>check rules
>(terminator) combi-weapons
>shoot either gun, not both
>we don't use storm bolters here, we have a unique twin bolter and here's how it works (roll dice to hit once, roll to wound twice)
>rapid fire as per usual

>check battle bible
>shoot both guns at all times and without penalty
>remember twin bolters, not storm bolters, but don't ask what twin or twin-linked means, we don't tell you in this pdf (and I really can't find it in any of the rulebooks either, I might just be thick)
Anyone know why it has this discrepancy?

>>97885034
Please report back if you find out, I'm interested at this too now.

>>97880652
The idea behind a retroclone would be to have a rules analogue that either recreates the original system faithfully or modernises it in some way. In order for retroclones to exist, there needs to be a real demand, and that the thing that's missing, of you ask me. D&D retroclones originally appeared because a lot of people wanted to maintain an old school vibe alive and original rulebooks were also becoming more scarce and expensive.

With Warhammer, there really isn't as much of a desire to revive the old school ethos, even if the rules didn't change that drastically, the spirit of the game did. Players don't really seek complex narrative scenarios and rules for every specific situation, instead, the "oldhammer" vibes seem more about the modeling aspect of the hobby, with saturated colour schemes, metal models and goblin green bases being good enough to please the brain. Rules are an afterthought.

And speaking of rules, the osr had a clearer transition from very faithful retroclones to heavily house-ruled systems to the current osr scene, full of artsy indie games. With GW stuff, this evolution started with Necromunda/Mordheim/Inquisitor and the Inq28 community, so the closest thing to a retroclone we have is for that style of gameplay, quickly evolving into its own indie scene.

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>>97885034
Take a read of the first couple of pages of the battle bible.

"It attempts to simplify things as much as possible, so you can focus on the aspects of the hobby that were meant to be the challenging aspects — painting, strategy, and scraping together enough cash for that new Dreadnought.
The text in this document is not a straight copying of that of the original — indeed, very little of the rules‘ original
wording has survived. This is an intentional decision and was made chiefly because of copyright infringement laws and secondly because the grammar of the original books is sometimes vague and in error. Where deemed necessary, clarifications have been made, and all attempts have been made to make sure that any additional rules or assumptions are valid and coincide with the intent of the original rules."

Under this mentality it's no surprise he decided it was "better" to just have one set of combi-weapon rules.

The funniest part of the Battle Bible is the bit that appears from 1.6 onwards stating how happy he was to see that version 1.5.1 had been spreading around but that "Up until now, any version number higher than that has been fanwank created by dodgy characters of questionable moral rectitude," when the entire thing is his own fanwank interpretation of rules and decision of what rules are and are not worth replacing.

That aside if you are wanting to go with the battle bible, the Twin Bolters are explained in the middle of the Chaos combi-weapon rules "Additionally, the twin-bolters option functions as two separate Boltguns, not as a single StormBolter."

>>97889168
>he decided it was "better" to just have one set of combi-weapon rules.
>when the entire thing is his own fanwank
>the Twin Bolters are explained in
I know it's fanwank, I just play with someone who I think thinks it's an original author who worked at GW due to it being called a bible, or is a compilation of white dwarf revisions, or is at least the deciding document in order of precedence (Bible->Codex->Dark Millennium->Core Rules) and some of its homebrews like turning during overwatch seem like okay ideas

He's still written two separate combi weapon rules, it's just that he's upgraded Chaos to not only being allowed to fire both barrels but at no cost
He hasn't removed or modified the Chaos close combat rule, he hasn't given them Storm Bolters, he's just decided "They shoot lots lmao"

Does anyone have the 1988 Adeptus Titanicus rulebook scanned?

>>97893545
Nvm I found it

Just seen that Lead & Steel had a £1 per miniature sale of a load of 80s stuff. Wew.

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>>97890234
To make it even sillier page 37, at least on the copy of 1.8.3 I'm looking at, has the bottom half of the page free after explaining other special shooting rules where there could easily be a nice neat "Twin/Twin-Linked/Linked" section added.
Or perhaps a glossary of terms could have been added to the end instead of the 5 pages of nonsense that makes up the "Battle Bible FAQ" section.

Wasn't twin-linked in 2nd already
>same gun but reroll misses
?

>>97894577
Nope.

>>97894577
That was 3rd ed. 40ks rules for them.

>>97893800
The latest version is 1.8.4, and that version corrects the twin-link rules.

The author posts on facebook, and has said he wants to keep everything canon, but as he's taken over an old project from the 90s, it's a constant effort to cull homebrew stuff from it that's crept in, and that can only be done if that stuff is pointed out.

- 1.8.4 Update: Added missing twin-linked base rules (and links/references throughout the Bible to this new subsection), added note on hiding and communicators, corrected Chaos combiweapons, corrected Space Marine dreadnought auto-launchers, added Space Wolves Iron Priest Support option info, corrected Space Wolves dreadnought weapon options, added generic Battle Standard wargear. — 2025/07/27

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>>97894577
I found the page

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>>97894577
>>97896966
>>97898028
Cheers and sorry, it seems reading the old Bible melted my brain.

Cool that someone is trying to dig through it and make an all official rules version, though I'd perhaps go for new numbering if I was taking on that challenge.

Does anyone here have a scan of the rulebook for the Doom of the Eldar boardgame? I swear this is my white whale.

>>97899417
I can upload it later today

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Is there a lore reason why old techmarines had those weird hand instead of pauldron?

>>97899702
So I've not been able to find a deeper fluff reason yet but it was their equivalent of the Chaplain and Apothecary's pauldron symbols.

WD 105 - Index Astartes p38
"[P]ersonality models will often have shoulder plates, helmets or breastplates of distinctive design to distinguish their specialist role.
For example, Chaplain's favour skull-shaped shoulder plates and breastplates, Officers have skull and eagle motifs, Medics are distinguished by the snake emblem, and Techmarines with the claw emblem."

The unit stat entries in the same article had common shoulder pad iconograph beside them that matched what that says along with examples for the Librarian, Tactical, Assault and Devastator squads.

In Codex Ultramarines a veteran sergeant always has power armor, even scout veteran sergeants, which is how scout veteran sergeants were in Rogue Trader too, but in Codex Angels of Death veteran sergeants have the same armor as the squad, meaning scout veteran sergeants have scout armor, but in Dark Vengeance Naaman has power armor.

>>97902412
Huh, never noticed that. I always just played them with Angels of Death codex with scout armors