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>>97905461

This guy is retarded

>>97905461
>this faggotry retarded shit again
Fuck off already. 5e shares no DNA with Tolkien's work.

>>97905461
swallowing a thesaurus won't make you any less of a dumbcunt

>>97905461
>His work is prolific
>All you can do is "consciously lace the boil"
What is he trying to convey here? his overly pretentious writing style is hard to parse.

>>97906549
It's just some leftist retard seething about Tolkien

>>97905461
¿Que?
LOTR is good because of the details and world building. The evolution of languages, of ethnic migrations, on the mythology.

>>97906638
You'd think they'd bring up how the red book of westmarch was transcribed by an Anglo-Saxon whom was told by the elves his people would make the greatest empire in the world. Which means the elves knew of the millions of people the brittish empire would murder for money and they were cool with it.
which is why I don't want to be an elf-friend, self-serving bastards. Few can match the piety of Thranduil indeed

>>97906677
>Which means the elves knew of the millions of people the brittish empire would murder for money
Jeet fanfiction tbqhwyfldd.

>posted it again award
Please find a bridge to jump off of

>>97905461
D&D is like 90% jack vance, tho. To the point it is much easier to run a vance novel as an adventure than basically any other author's work.

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>>97906549
>esl
Tolkien is huge in fantasy literature, and his influence is even larger.
Simply ignoring Tolkien derived fantasy does not work. It occupies a large portion of the fantasy literature space.
All you can do is consciously go against the norm.

To relate it to /tg/ terms, imagine if you enjoyed a particular genre of tabletop games. Now imagin that a dogshit system was hugely popular and dominated almost all the discussion around that kind of tabletop game. Every time you try to talk about the games you like, it is framed in terms of this one piece of shit game with dogshit rules and dogshit dumbass players. And now because that one tabletop game got popular, every single game tries to emulate it. Even games that you previously enjoyed are becoming infected.
Would it better your favorite type of tabletop games to ignore the giant piece of shit and say nothing? Or do you consciously try to fight against the bad design decisions that that game makes?

Hypothetically, of course.

>>97905461
>>97905463
>>97905486
I remember this guy.
He was one of the people spearheading the nu-fantasy/weird-fantasy movement a few years back.

This whole movement in fantasy writing seemed to be predicated on circlejerking how modern writers are better than tolkien while seething that Tolkien is to blame why they never become as popular as him.

It was like a whole subreddit dedicated to coping how replacing elves and dwarves with treehugging plantpeople and drinking mining bugpeople is the real creativity.

I bought perdido street station. What am I in for?

>>97906786
>To relate it to /tg/ terms, imagine if you enjoyed a particular genre of tabletop games. Now imagin that a dogshit system was hugely popular and dominated almost all the discussion around that kind of tabletop game. Every time you try to talk about the games you like, it is framed in terms of this one piece of shit game with dogshit rules and dogshit dumbass players. And now because that one tabletop game got popular, every single game tries to emulate it. Even games that you previously enjoyed are becoming infected.
>Would it better your favorite type of tabletop games to ignore the giant piece of shit and say nothing? Or do you consciously try to fight against the bad design decisions that that game makes?
>Hypothetically, of course.

The problem is that they never address why its bad nor do they try argue it from an objective standpoint.
With Systems you can pinpoint some flaws, like with how modern D&D removed a lot of mechanics to streamline the rules, make it seem simpler without understanding what its purpose was (Dungeon Turns for example) which is why nowadays modern D&D players seem to believe that dungeons are the most boring part of the game.

>>97905461
When people "dis" fantasy, they're actually referring to the low-tech, medieval-esque kinds of stories, not just Tolkien. But it's still misleading & unfortunate, because fantasy is the faculty or activity of imagining things, especially things that are impossible or improbable; not just swords & magic.

>cod-Wagnerian
The fuck is this, another /lit/fag buzzword like "Watsonian" or "Doylist"? If you're an English-speaking reader of English works, speak English, not gibberish.

>glorying in war
Tolkien always professed that war is Hell, that there's no glory in it.

Consolation is not mollycoddling.
For someone trying to come off as well-read, he sure doesn't know what words mean.

>fantasists (not a word) have ignored
Yes, there are creative types who do have a sense of personal agency. The people who don't aren't the responsibility or the fault of Tolkien. It would be equally retarded to say any one of the authors this faggot namedropped rotted his brain.

>fantastic aesthetic
It's disappointing that someone trying to affect great culture, importance, & knowledge believes fantasy is something so superficial, when it can go much deeper than that.
I guess he doesn't actually possess that culture, knowledge, or importance he wants people to think he has, huh?

>alienate, subvert, undermine
They are ways to go about telling stories, yes, but they are not inherently good ways. It's all about execution, otherwise you end up with shit like Looper, in which one character literally lampshades the faulty in-world mechanics by saying not to think about it too much, or like any other of Roundhead Johnson's works.

>the pleasure in fantasy is supposed to be in its limitless creativity
Yes, this is completely, and absolutely correct.
This is not, however, an excuse to denigrate any author, Tolkien or not. It also isn't proof that those lacking in agency are Tolkien's fault or responsibility.

Now how about we talk about games?

>>97906728
The Anglos washed whole continents in blood to enrich their shitty ruling class. India was but one such place.

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>>97906786
>Hypothetically, of course.
Thats a nice and good and he might have had a point in an alternative reality where breathing through your ass is the norm but whenever I see someone using the phrase "subvert and undermine expectations" unironically I know that its an honest to god midwit trying to larp as an intellectual.

>>97906846
Getting your expectations subverted.

>>97905461
Make no mistake, Tolkien clones are a cancer upon the genre, stagnating it and forcing it to be samey boring generic dogshit, but this faggot's point is even worse.

Tolkien clones aren't a cancer because of elves and dwarves on their own, it's because everyone says "if your fantasy setting doesn't meet [arbitrary set of requirements that make it a tolkien clone] then it isn't REAL fantasy" which is a retarded thing to say.

>>97906868
Agreed, it shouldn't be about subverting your expectations, it should be about keeping the genre from stagnating by providing fresh, alternative takes to the gray slop of tolkien clones that try to be the world of The Hobbit but are infinitely lesser as a result. Stop trying to copy one guy's vision of fantasy and start getting weird with it.

>>97906868
Subverting expectations is a normal thing that happens. Like in jokes where it looks like people are fucking but actually nothing dirty is happening .

>>97906851
It's bad because it causes stagnation of the genre. It prevents the potential for new ideas or mechanical niches because it's "not real fantasy" because it isn't a clone of something tolkien wrote except 1000x as shitty (such as any edition of D&D, yes this includes TSR). instead of encouraging people to make the genre their own, it's saying "You have to do X Y and Z or your system/setting isn't REAL fantasy" and a bunch of retarded faggots fall for it hook line and sinker.

People don't understand that greatness isn't something that can be achieved by copying better men, it's something that occurs when your passions align with those of others to the point you find lightning in a bottle. Anyone can shit out another humans-elves-dwarves-hobbits fantasy game with fighters and rangers and wizards or what have you, but only an individual focused on making something they enjoy and want to run and play can make something worthwhile, because rather than chasing market shares and dollar signs, they're putting their own passions first and foremost. That's what makes something interesting, not "here's another rendition of the same slop fantasy TTRPGs have been shitting out for the past 50 years".

>>97906916
Sure, someone won't make something great just by trying to lazily copy something great.
But someone also won't make something great if they're just glancing over their shoulder at the thing they're trying to avoid copying, and just doing the exact opposite.

Lazy subversion isn't any better than lazy copies.

>>97906846
Disappointment.

>>97905461
>challenge, alienate, subvert, and undermine expectations
I feel like the last 20 odd years have proven that anyone who says these things are actually insane authoritarians who, should someone seek to challenge, alienate, subvert, or undermine their own works will lash out with anger and any authority they may have in censorship and blacklisting. It's never that they want to challenge the status quo, but rather they want to implement their own status quo.

>>97906902
>it should be about keeping the genre from stagnating by providing fresh, alternative takes to the gray slop of tolkien clones that try to be the world of The Hobbit but are infinitely lesser as a result. Stop trying to copy one guy's vision of fantasy and start getting weird with it.

Trying to reinvent the wheel is just as bad denying the usefulness of the wheel.
Its like saying that Thievesworld or Fafhrd & Gray Mouser dont exist.
Saying that Tolkien is to blame that they never became as popular as Tolkien is delusional.

>>97906906
>Subverting expectations is a normal thing that happens. Like in jokes where it looks like people are fucking but actually nothing dirty is happening .

Why are you talking about something you know I didnt mean?

>>97906916
>because it's "not real fantasy
Why do you guys constantly make up shit in your heads and then get upset all on your own over it?
I have never once heard anyone say "Its not real fantasy because it doesnt have Dwarves or Elves"

>make the genre their own, it's saying "You have to do X Y and Z or your system/setting isn't REAL fantasy" and a bunch of retarded faggots fall for it hook line and sinker.
Yet here you are saying "You have to do X Y and Z or your system/setting causes stagnation of the genre"
Do you notice the issue?

I keep hearing how fantasy is "stagnating" yet if you ask for the solution you get the same stagnant answer of "be weird"

>Anyone can shit out another humans-elves-dwarves-hobbits fantasy game with fighters and rangers and wizards or what have you, but only an individual focused on making something they enjoy and want to run and play can make something worthwhile, because rather than chasing market shares and dollar signs, they're putting their own passions first and foremost.
And this on the other hand I agree on.
I just dont see why "humans-elves-dwarves-hobbits fantasy game with fighters and rangers and wizards " would preclude that.
Thats not what made Tolkien good.

>>97907014
I feel the same.
Thank you for managing to put into words what I couldn't for the longest time.
Now that ive read your post I feel like this one of the main things that was bothering me about the nu-fantasy/weird-thing all along.

"Dogma bad, so we have to replace it with my dogma"

>>97905461
I agree that Fantasy tends to suffer the just copy Tolkien, Howard, Moorcock and had many of the "basic fantasy troupes" back in the day. However what I think is killing it today isn't the troupes they whine about but it is tourists and activists trying to claim and change it into their commie queer soapbox. All while shitting on the people who built fantasy to what it is today. Plus they just using two of the fantasy troupes hoping to claim their badly made fanfic with enough changed to be it's own IP at best or these fuckers ARE writing for the IP and change everything cause they want to make the characters and setting be their mouth piece as well as add their Mary-Sue OC in that is the "bestest evar."

I mean how many classic IP pull that whole "let get rid of the white male heroes and replace them with queers, blacks, and the most forced thing ever, the ugly white girl with a lesbian or woke hair cut who may or may not be queer." As well as the classic make every region, town, etc have "diversity." So nothing looks different and every place has a gay couple, blacks and arabs but often little to no white guys unless they're queers, betas or a villain. Speaking on that, love the "we are against stereotypes and how hurtful they can be". Then tries to push the "evil white man" stereotype and deny that they're even trying to make that a thing. Or even say that it's true so it's should be allow. Yet will whine about people bring up "13/50" and call them racist.

Then when their woke commie slop trying to push the "white man's patriarchal empire losing to a white girl and a ragtag group of poc and queer pushing commie viewpoints" bombs and fails they cry it's cause of Tolkien and the white men not going to see it and fantasy needs to be more different. Then fail to talk about how many of the biggest anime fantasy has no problem getting big and making a scene with fantasy fans.

>>97906549
He means he'd like to be murdered using a surgical knife.

>>97907014
Most slaves don't want to be free of the master/slave system, they just want to be slave-masters themselves.

>>97907056
>Why are you talking about something you know I didnt mean?
Why are you? It's been a long established method of doing things way before it was interpreted as hidden code for "It's shit on purpose".

How did he think this was going to go over without making him look pretentious?

>>97907304
You can't get any more pretentious than decided that English people don't have any real mythology and trying to make one.

>>97907207
You? Really don't read much fantasy, do you?

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There's no point in arguing with Tolkiendrones because they're a bunch of ESL retards with no knowledge of literature who think a book written in the 1950s is "old literature" and think grey morality did not exist in literature before the publication of game of thrones.
Imagine telling these people that Walter Scott was writing historical adventure novels that have grey morality in them in the 1810s. Never even mind Shakespeare, or Homer, or Defoe, or any other of the great writers of the western canon.

>>97907304
He's a prog, they're convinced that sounding pretentious and contrarian makes them sound more like an intellectual.
Seriously, there is no one on 4chan that is more contrarian or prone to intellectual masturbation than your average BsC (Bronze swimming certificate) in social sciences.
They will look at the most common sense bullshit and go 'I'm too smart for that, clearly the truth must be the opposite because the plebs believe it and it's all social constructs anyway'

>>97907336
>think grey morality did not exist in literature before the publication of game of thrones.
No one said that. You're getting angry at a person you created in your head.

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>>97905486
Dude has a point.

>>97907379
The meme i posted that Tolkien fanboys love is literally an example of it.
ESL.

>>97906728
Ireland doesn't exist

this place loves arguing about the same shit daily
I didn't even read that image but the thumbnail is burnt into the my mind along with every word

>>97907399
Are you saying Walter Scott, Shakespeare, Homer, and Defoe didn't have evident virtues within their works? Their works are all a lot closer thematically to Tolkien than China M.

>>97905461
>>97905463
>a walking antifa cliche hates thing for every reason you already had on your Bingo card
Boring beyond description.

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>>97905461
>Western classic is bad, says a guy named China
Fascinating, tell me more.

>>97907333
I do, do you? Cause game recognizes game and you're looking very unfamiliar right now, did you get lost trying to go to bluesky again?

But back to what I was saying. For every good short story and novel we get. We get flood with woke slop pushed by DEI and Blackrock backed companies. Hell, have the writers admit they're just try to get anything bought by Netflix in point of leapfrogging to Hollywood and all. (That's most of the woke writers in comics and half of the people that were doing gaming sites before they burn any good will they had with their political takes when they should just be reviewing games and systems.)

Why do you think many comics are doing all those "cafe scenes where they just talk" over action scenes and stuff that came from comic writers not someone trying to sell a fucking script but failed and got a job as a DEI hire for Marvel or DC?

>>97907421
>having virtue means your works are complete black and white morally
??????
>>97907448
The Lord of the Rings is not a "western classic" you ESL.
Read some literature before pretending Lord of the Rings is up there in the western canon.

>>97906859
Wait till you find out what group controlled their ruling class (since Cromwell).

>>97907459
>Read some literature before pretending Lord of the Rings is up there in the western canon.
Of works from the last ~100 years it absolutely is. Tolkien was always a mediocre storyteller but his world building stands on its own.

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>>97907467
>Of works from the last ~100 years it absolutely is
It isn't by any means
>Tolkien was always a mediocre storyteller but his world building stands on its own.
Imagine thinking making up imaginary worlds makes something a work of literature.

>>97907459
It's a hundred years old and even your pretentious little chinese friend thinks the influence is strong enough even though he doesn't like it because it's more popular than his gay fanfiction, so yeah I'd call it a classic. Faggot.

>>97907467
To be fair I wouldn't say Tokien was a mediocre storyteller. However, his thing was all about making a world around the story then a story around the world. It's harder to do but when you pull it off. It's better than just making a story and the world make the story feel more real and gives it more weight. (Simple things matter more if you care about the people, locations, etc.)

>>97905461
Retard.

>>97907485
>It's a hundred years old
A work published in 1954 is a hundred years old? Are tolkiendrones this bad at math?
>and even your pretentious little chinese friend thinks the influence is strong enough even though he doesn't like it because it's more popular than his gay fanfiction, so yeah I'd call it a classic
I despise China Mielville. But I don't think a work published in the 1950s is a work of old literature. You absolute retard ESL

Tolkien is good
But I also hate people who think he's inherent to fantasy and it's impossible to write anything that doesn't have influence from him, a la Terry's quotes

>>97907565
He is the foundation of fantasy as a genre. It's not possible to have a serious conversation about fantasy without admitting that.

>>97907618
>He is the foundation of fantasy as a genre.
no. he's vastly influential, but not the foundation, as if there was nothing else before him.

Why would someone that is a famous author be so bitter?

>>97907632
Because he is a hack, and hacks always swing for the greats, without understanding why they were great.

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>>97905461
>>97905463
Retard.

>>97905486
Truth.

And I'm not even a fan of Tolkien, and will almost always place "weird shit" higher.

There's no value in "subversion of le expectations xD" and """creativity""" for its own sake, and anything with a "message" to prop onto the reader is almost always inherently cancerous.

If you have something to explore, explore it, and do so earnestly, both as a writer and a reader, or shut the fuck up.

>>97906859
Woah, cool it with the antisemitism.

>his oeuvre is massive
LOTR, the hobbit, silmarrilion and some children's books, lost stories/anthologies no?

>>97907399
Durr... Me some Glorious Murrican who despite having fought themselfs free from the colonizers, still only speaks their language and uses their retarded measurements.

>>97905461
No idea who that is but he's a retard

>>97907459
Well, whatever the case. He was far more successful and talented than you will ever be. Just be aware of that fact.

>>97907505
>I despise this faggot. But for some mysterious reason, I find myself compelled to keep sucking...

>>97907628
That really doesn't matter for how the genre exists today.

>>97907664
I think he misunderstands "oeuvre" as a matter of influence, not as in the body of work. He just likes to use complicated words because he thinks it makes him sound smart, when in reality it just makes him look retarded to anyone with access to an online dictionary.

Tolkien's body of published works is actually quite small, if we discount his academic writings. It's basically just the Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings trilogy, and the Silmarillion. He did some other minor stuff but no-one pays attention to those anyway.

I have at least five or six different fantasy writers within immediate reach that produced or produces more, that I can see just on my shelf. Howard, Lovecraft, Robin Hobb, Granström, Jack Vance, and Perumov. I am sure there are countless others, but this is just what I can see right in front of me at this very moment.

Dude just doesn't know what oeuvre means. Because he's a tryhard retard.

>>97907459
>The Lord of the Rings is not a "western classic"
You're either retarded or profoundly disconnected from the real world. This statement might have held some validity prior to the LotR films, but it has not been true for at least 20 years at this point. It went from genre staple to pop-culture significance, and has absolutely entered the western canon at this point.

I don't even like Tolkien, but you're being retarded if you're trying to argue otherwise. He's arguably more relevant than Shakespeare at this point, at least in recognition and relevance if not in actual fact.

>>97907482
>1667596563872013.png
Holds more genuine criticism of merit than anything spewed out by the OP or raised in the thread.

>>97907695
The genre has barely anything to do with tolkien these days. Retard.

>>97907336
Okay, China Mieville.

>>97907656
>There's no value in "subversion of le expectations xD" and """creativity""" for its own sake
yes, you can have something to be different for the sake of it
if i decide to wear a red shirt tomorrow when i had worn nothing but blue shirts previously, i do not need a reason, just changing it is just good enough a reason

>>97907762
Are you going around trying to sell yourself wearing your red shirt as ""sophisticated"" take on culture and fashion?

No?
Then maybe its false equivalency.

>>97907746
The multi-novel series was not the primary vehicle for fantasy for Tolkien.
There were no core races before Tolkien.
There was no focus on the "worldbuilding" before Tolkien.

>>97907628
The entire tradition of weird fantasy was better than Tolkien, but Tolkiendrones don't even realize that. The Broken Sword was released in the same year as Fellowship of the Ring and it's way better than LOTR.

>>97907737
That says more about you than the critiques of China Mieville against Tolkien. I think you just like things to be easily communicated in memes because it's spoonfed to you. If someone put the critiques from the OP into a meme, you'd lap it up. Simpleton.

>>97907670
Why would anglo whigs change their entire language after fighting and winning against the government? Are you retarded?

>>97907680
Not an argument.
>>97907734
>popularity means le western canon
So marvel movies are in the western canon? Are marvel comic books great works of western literature?
ESL's are delusional.
>I don't even like Tolkien, but you're being retarded if you're trying to argue otherwise. He's arguably more relevant than Shakespeare at this point, at least in recognition and relevance if not in actual fact.
Imagine thinking Tolkien is more relevant than Shakespeare, LMAO. Peak genre kiddie delusion.

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Imo the bigger issue is not the Tolkienification of DnD but the DnDification of fantasy as a whole.
Pic related, this is what sells nowadays and this is what shapes expectations at the table

>>97907880
Atleast call it ASL, American second language then. Nobody likes england, they have not been relevant for ages and by now they are ESL themselfs because of all the muslim filth they let in to their country.

>>97907916
>ESL latinx seething
LMAO

>old thing made by smart man bad
>new thing made by homosexual drug addicts good
I have never read Tolkien, nor would I say I'm a fan of the movies. But I sure as hell will give credit where credit is due, and I hate people who don't.

>>97907936
>other people told me it was good so... I'll feel viscerally upset when someone says its bad
People who don't like Tolkien have an opinion of their own. You never even tried to do that.

>>97907885
>So marvel movies are in the western canon?
In the western canon of what?
Cinematography? Yeah.
No matter how much you or me or anyone dislikes it the first Avengers movie still hold as masterclass in writing a tight script with well structured set-ups and payoffs.

>>97907900
>random screenshot of some literally who writing his isekai story
>OMG THIS IS THE DOWNFALL OF FANTASYWRITING AND D&D AND TOLKIEN IS TO BLAME

You are the same sort fartsniffing midwits the sped in OPS pic.
You are doing more damage to fantasy by simply existing and being ignorant than those people do.

>>97907961
>In the western canon of what?
>Cinematography? Yeah.
>No matter how much you or me or anyone dislikes it the first Avengers movie still hold as masterclass in writing a tight script with well structured set-ups and payoffs.
OH NO NO NO
Genre Kiddie delusion is putting marvelslop next to tarkovsky

>>97907961
ESL retard where did i say Tolkien is to blame?
I'm saying that the rise of rpgslop directly impacts the expectations at the table and thus directly affects the rpg market

See Pathfinder vs the absolute garbage fire that is 2e

>>97907951
People who like Tolkien have an opinion of their own. You never even tried to do that.

Stop trying to portray yourself as an enlightened intellectual so desperately, its off-putting and you're the only one who doesn't seem to be aware of it.
You haven't written shit, you haven't published shit, yet here you are trying to tell people what is good and bad literature.
Get a fucking grip.

>>97907979
I dub thee ESLfag

>>97907984
You? Sound incredibly insecure little bro. Start reading and forming your own opinions instead of build your entire personality around a need for external validation.

>>97905461
What a self-important fuckstick.

>>97907971
>Tarkovsky

lmaoooo you don't need to further prove to anyone here that you're a pseud and poser, I am sure I wasnt the only one who could instantly tell.
I explained to you why something is a conventionally well-made movie in a see of slop and you shat yourself and out the most basic bitch poser answer you could come up with like a redditor.
Next you will be telling us that Aguirre was secret masterpiece and that Werner Herzog is an unappreciated genius you poser cunt.

>>97907979
>calls everyone ESL
>cant read for shit
>gets mad because he cant read

Im starting to think that you were the ESL all along which is why you preemptively refer to everyone else as ESL.

>>97907996
"no u"

Thats what it always boils down to with people like you. Boring and predictable.

>>97908033
>Next you will be telling us that Aguirre was secret masterpiece and that Werner Herzog is an unappreciated genius
NTA, there's nothing wrong with this

>>97907781
No, no it's not.

The Broken Sword is a fun book, but it's not much more than a bunch of tropes tied together with a throughline of "whoa did you know you could be TOO awesome?!" and mistaking misery for depth. It's well-written, and filled with great ideas, but it's ultimately hollow.

Tolkien has a soul and truth to it.

The "soul" part is perhaps not as blatant as C.S. Lewis's "Aslan is Jesus" business, but Tolkien laid down an interweaving net of ideals and morality that manages to avoid being too preachy too often. As far as the "truth" of it, Tolkien was not a young man when he wrote LotR, and had lived a fairly eventful life. He had even fought in WW1, including participating in the Battle of Somme, where 3 million men fought and 1 in 3 were killed or wounded.

Though TBS and FotR came out in the same year, Tolkien was nearly 30 years Anderson's senior, and had not just lived as a writer. The differences in life and experience is pretty pronounced, particularly in how they ended their stories.

>>97908067
At the end of The Broken Sword and Lord of the Rings, both protagonists have suffered greatly and have been changed by war. But, Skafloc's main suffering comes from (spoilering) his (spoiler), while Frodo's comes from being tested by a corrupting force more powerful than any addiction and ultimately losing to it but being saved in the last moment by a chance wrought out of him being merciful and compassionate to another who had previously succumbed to that corrupting power.

Frodo returns to the Shire with a wisdom that elevates him above his peers, and while saving his home (and the world), he ultimately can no longer stay because he himself has changed too much.

Skafloc dies without having learned anything and having "saved" the elves who by that time had produced fairly convincing arguments that they were not only not worth saving but that they were also fairly impartial to the whole extinction thing anyway and were going to move in that direction regardless, and their king was also pretty much in the wrong the whole time and the trolls deserved to wipe them off the face of the earth.

>>97905461
his seething over Tolkien is retarded
the problem he identifies is that the majority of fantasy writers (decisively unlike Tolkien himself) are entirely influenced by other existing works of fantasy and it has consequently ended up in an incestuous ouroboros of just rehashing the same concepts over and over again, which has nothing to do with him
>>97905463
okay never mind he's just retarded

>>97905461
>the pleasure of fantasy is supposed to be in its limitless creativity
This is the only correct thing the cuck in both your screencaps said.

>>97908067
>Tolkien has a soul and truth to it.
The "Soul" of being filtered by Shakespeare's Birnam wood? Of thinking England "needed" a mythology when it is rich and culture in mythology already?
>He had even fought in WW1, including participating in the Battle of Somme, where 3 million men fought and 1 in 3 were killed or wounded.
Plenty of British people fought in the somme and went back and wrote pulpy novels, it doesn't make a novel inherently good if the person who wrote it went to war.

>>97908192
>Plenty of British people fought in the somme and went back and wrote pulpy novels, it doesn't make a novel inherently good if the person who wrote it went to war.
Point in case: CS Lewis.

>>97907951
I don't need to read Tolkien to understand the importance of his writing for fantasy culture. Spitting on this man's grave does not make you cool, anon - it makes you a homosexual vermin.

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>>97908136
Really? Because it reminds me of Pic related.
>oooOOOOOoooOOOOOoooo watch out here come the creatives!

>>97908192
what have you written tho?

>>97908241
Only the letter is correct, not the spirit.
He's still a faggot who thinks alienation and subversion are god, regardless of execution, and probably worships everything Rian Johnson makes.

>>97908192
>it doesn't make a novel inherently good if the person who wrote it went to war
That's right.
Tolkien being a good writer is what made his novels good.

>>97908245
>what have you written tho?

"My car is having trouble starting, and the exhaust is leaking black smoke."
(You): HOW MANY CARS HAVE YOU MADE THO ??

"My floor has a slight tilt to it, round objects keep rolling when I set them down."
(You): HOW MANY HOUSES HAVE YOU BUILT THO ??

"My sandwich has a literal turd in it."
(You): HOW MANY SANDWICHES HAVE YOU MADE THO ??

>>97908256
>alienation and subversion are god
this is pretty much the core of every newbie hack writer. pretty much narcissistic midwits who never grew and now think everything they produce is pure gold. and if nobody buys their dogshit stories, it's because of the media illiteracy of the plebs.
death to all of them.

>>97905461
Is he having a stroke or something?

>>97907336
There's no point trying to argue with you because if I said the sky is blue you'd turn that into a strawman as well.

this is like the genre fiction version of the warhammer table spam
no actual discussion, if I namedrop a handful of authors in a zero substance post then I can pretend to be hot shit and not some shitforbrains retard that's been laughed off of /int/
let alone the zero discussion about other RPGs which don't fit in the admittedly very large box of what a contrarian considers tolkienian

>>97906857
>fantasy fag
>doesn't know who wagner is
fucking lol
didn't read the rest

>>97908408
I'm not a /lit/fag, so no, I don't give a shit who Wagner is.
I play games, and use the board for games because I play games.

>>97905461
Most people are stupid and can only repeat what was created before them. Also in the news - water is wet.

>>97908285
thats some cool false equivalency there retard.

Anyway, how many books have you written?
How many have you published?

>>97908456
>water is wet
No, it fucking isn't.
I'm sick of explaining this to you.

>>97905461
I think it was a comment that was made on the Between Two Cairns podcast but Tolkien's influence on fantasy and its current state was surpassed by an even more hideous and unimaginative beast: Dungeons & Dragons.
D&D was a cultural zeitgeist and projects like Dragonlance and its ilk were massively popular and irreparably changed fantasy. you can't even call them a flanderization of Tolkien because it was an even more debased version of Tolkien clones like the Shannara but wrapped in a thick blanket of Mormonism and packaged as for mass consumption without the slightest airs of nuance

>>97905463
>>97905461
Is anyone else exhausted on deconstruction? That is what this Rebel without a cause is crying for, endless works that mock, deride, break down or outright villainize “traditional” fantasy. I find this exhausting.

But I find it exhausting for a completely different reason than the standard, “stop tearing down the things I like.” It’s because I guarantee he can’t take what he gives. It’s always that way with these people; I can deconstruct your narrative, but if you try and deconstruct mine you’re a Nazi/Chud/Monster. If I can’t call “urban fantasy” boorish and drab without getting yelled at then I can plainly see this isn’t an argument to “expand my horizons,” it’s an attempted conversion that saw the victim becoming aware of the programming.

Why do tradcuck conservatard tolkien fans ITT LARP as if tolkien was some kind of based english right winger when in reality he was an East Prussian philosemite catholic cuckservative, a philosemite who loved the jews, and whose great-grandson is a jew who campaigns for left wing causes in britain today?

>>97908499
Edgy.

Tolkien has truth, honor, soul and speaks directly to the hearts of White people.
That is why subhumans dislike and want to destroy it, despite all of the veneer of "nuanced criticism" or whatever pseud shit these vermins may come up with.

>>97908550
Tolkien's great grandson is literally an anti white jew

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>>97908550
>vermins

>>97908558
And your mom is a whore, does that make your sister a whore also? she is, the two for one special is quite special indeed This sins of the father reasoning makes you either the conservative you hate or a purity spiraling till the nth. generation commiebrain.

>>97908577
>tolkiendrone ESL seething incoherently

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>>97908241
There's degrees of pic related and they're heavily influenced by the motivation of the creator. In the image you posted the employee is projecting a fantastical image onto a bitchy employer but failing to project a suitable image on herself. In her vanity she considers herself special and different, demonstrative of a lack of self-awareness or two-way application of the visual allegory. She should be the blue winged monkey and certainly not smirking with a self-assured smugness at having non-verbally infantilized her boss. This is why she will never be the "creative" she thinks she is because her mental image is purely cope rather than an abstracted understanding of the situation.

>>97908475
how mentally ill are you to assume that every time you come across this common idiom it's the exact same guy?
I suppose acknowledging it's an idiom meaning "to state the obvious" would involve a tacit acknowledgement that whatever pre-existing definition isn't overrruled by whatever a bunch of nerds decided to borrow the word to mean
which then means you can't use it as an excuse to tell everyone that you're a super smart widdle engineering undergraduate
your school bully let down the team not thumping this faggotry out of you

Since we're having a big gay thread arguing about historic literature, for anyone who wants some good pre-Tolkien fantasy lit; Ballad of the White Horse is top end.

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>tolkienfagging
People just don't know what they're missing out on.

Science fiction and fantasy are both incredibly similar genres. There are some key differences in the base premise/qualifiers for each genre, but they are 95% the same.

In science fiction, you see a huge range of stories and settings in many different subgenres, and plenty that doesn't fit into any basket. Science fiction can include a Jules Verne novel, Frankenstein, Dune, Blade Runner, Star Trek, The Martian, Fallout, a Stanislaw Lem novel, etc.
There are so many different ways you can go that it's hard to even list them all.

Now look at fantasy. Fantasy is so creatively bankrupt that it's almost comical. Instead of exploring radically different premises the way sci-fi does, fantasy just iterates on aesthetics. It's Tolkien but the elves are edgy. It's Tolkien but everything sucks. It's Tolkien but magic has rules now!! It's Tolkien but the main character is "morally gray" (i.e. follows standard normie morality but edgy).

All the genuinely creative works are pushed to the side to make room for more Tolkien slop. MAYBE you get some urban fantasy slop or a Conan clone, but that's all. I guess it's what tolkientards want, but it's sad to see a genre with so much potential reduced to Brando Sando and whatever the fuck this is >>97907900

>>97908697
reply no 122 and the first sincere book suggestion ITT

>>97908730
>Fantasy is so creatively bankrupt that it's almost comical
Yes, that is why we should keep inserting black women in them, that is completely new and innovative

>>97908747
I believe in making this board a better place any time I can.
Others can wallow in the shit pit if they fancy, but I'm going to at least try and make some contributions.

>>97908751
No, but I'm all for adding woke shit for a simple reason - the faster genre dies, the faster it can reborn. Let the market crash so from the ashes a new generation of creators will rise who will care about genre, not about making a quick buck.

>Same tired old bait
>Same responses
>Same schizos
And then some animals wonder why people say 4chan is dead.

>>97908769 #
That is wishful thinking and you know it won't happen.
All you will get is your dear "weird fantasy" but with obese shaniquas, and they absolutely will have the goal of getting quick (Blackrock) bucks

>>97908751
>fantasy should be more creative
>BUT BLACK WOMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What the fuck is wrong with you? Can you have a normal conversation?

>>97908789
If you truly believe the "we need more creative fantasy!" argument is made in good faith in 2026, then I don't know what to tell you
If anything we need the exact opposite of that. We need to go back to proven, soulful formulas, double-down on it and stay there.

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>>97905481
second post, most accurate post.

>>97906549
I'm glad to see we still have brains on 4chan.