>>737131709
Creating sentient life for your own amusement only to destroy it at a moment's notice doesn't make you "right", it makes you a genocidal maniac actually.

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>>737131709
Neigh

>>737131893
They're not real. What's wrong with killing and raping them?

>>737131893
He never created human life, that was Aline.

>>737131709
Game? Character?

>>737131709
that would be Solidus Snake

>>737131709
He could've talked to his daughter instead of traumatizing her

>>737132120
expedition 33 main antagonist

>>737132261
Too much work. Causing trauma is as easy as falling off a bike.

>>737131709
>>737132261
Maellefags are barely literate and immediately memoryholed that Renoir and Verso were on board with keeping the painting until Maelle lied to their faces that she'd leave during the last fight.

All she had to do was leave the painting, instead she hung on like a drug addict and forced its destruction.

>>737131893
>Creating sentient life for your own amusement
When did he do that?

>>737131996
>They're not real
Retard.

He was more right than the rest but he jumped in and started a war with Aline which caused all the problems. You could also argue that he was a poor father if his family broke that hard.

>>737132053
>>737133701
He's painted his own canvas worlds before

>>737133520
Only because Renoir was literally trying to destroy it the entire time and pushing her to cling on even harder to a world she now knows is in a precarious state. Very likely the same thing happened with Aline, she was barely in the painting for any significant length of time before Renoir stuck his dick in her business and started the whole fight.

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>>737132285
>Expedition 33 main antagonist
*Loud incorrect buzzer sound*

Genuine answer: the devs said there's no clear cut heroes or villains in E33. It's up to the players' interpretation, and most agree with Renoir and Verso, and Alicia's a delusional, selfish piece of shit with a god-complex.

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>>737134568
Stop shitposting and go back to playing the piano.

>>737131893
Just like real life

>>737134568
is another episode of anon thinking that antagonist means villain

>>737133947
That doesn't inherently mean he created life there, or that he destroyed it afterwards if he did. Those canvases could very well be kept in some attic and still be alive.

>>737132285
Ohh. Didn't play it yet. But I heard the OST a lot recently and was psyopped to play it by how many times the singer says "Claire Obscure". I don't think in that game the question is what's morally just to do, but how to achieve the expedition's goals.

i am really attracted to maelle

>>737133520
>All she had to do was leave the painting, instead she hung on like a drug addict and forced its destruction

This. As Lune said: "The future of Lumiere is more important than any individual life." Expeditioners join with the intention of giving their life for the sake of the world, but when the time came for Alicia to give up her painted life as Maelle, she wouldn't do it, because she prioritizes her own illusion of happiness over anything else, even at the expense of torturing the soul of her dead brother, who gave his life for hers.
Alicia's pretty irredeemably shit.

>>737134118
>she was barely in the painting for any significant length of time
She had created an entire fucking city of thousands of people and a fake family to live with. She was obviously never going to leave.
It wasn't about the length of her stay but the clear signs of addiction. If you find your wife using drugs, do you let her keep doing them and see if she stops on her own or do you intervene?

>>737131709
This but for Painted Renoir. Fighting to save the world until the end.

>>737134893
Shut up Renoir, let you wife grieve in her own way

Imagine having to larp as a maellefag (basically a redditor) just to get some yous
Sad shit

>>737134886
>Lune says the future of Lumiere is more important than any individual life
>Countless expeditioners give up their lives for the sake of Lumiere
>Maelle gives up her life in her world for the sake of Lumiere
>This makes her irredeemably shit
Versofags always with the most ass backwards, contradictory logic

>Renoir was addicted once and had to be saved by his wife
>His wife later falls into grief and addiction through a Painting
>His daughter Alicia does the same only because Clea made her live as Maelle for 16 equivalent years
>Verso was a morose sap before he died saving Alicia

The whole family is fucked up.

>>737134758
Try to avoid any spoilers, a lot of fun comes from piecing the story together.

If Aline wanted escapism why did she paint alicia with burns and destroyed vocal cords? Her journal entry says she hates looking at her because it's a grim reminder yet she still painted her

You guys know this game's plot was AI generated right? AI always does these "IN A WORLD WHERE MUSIC IS MAGIC" concepts. This is exactly the kind of thing it would come up with. That's why the events are so retarded and schizo as well.

>>737131996
I don't think jews are real either but here we are

>>737135807
Artistic integrity.

>>737135878
You guys know this post was AI generated right? AI always does these "THIS GAME LOOKS AI GENERATED" shit posts. This is exactly the kind of thing it would come up with. That's why the argument is so retarded and schizo as well.

I think it's kind of sad that 97% of all plot-related discussion for this game concerns the final choice.
I also think it's sort of telling about the game itself.

>>737136076
Just don't respond or he will make 50+ posts about how bad this game is.

>>737134568
>Alicia's a delusional, selfish piece of shit with a god-complex.
*Loud incorrect buzzer sound*

Genuine answer: the devs said there's no clear cut heroes or villains in E33

>>737135807
She uses her art to lash out her frustrations onto innocent canvas people, golden children Verso and Clea are beloved so she doesn’t do anything to them while Renoir and Alicia get punished

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Forcing his Daughter to live the life of a femcel. He's based.

So how many people did Painted Verso bury before the game started? Could have sworn its implied he had some connections to the previous expeditions.

>>737135807
I don't think it was intentional or out of malice. If she hated her that much she could simply not paint her and live in her ideal family.
Probably something more like she subconsciously couldn't ignore the fire and needed to acknowledge it. Leaving Verso dead would defeat the purpose, so she had to paint Alicia scarred.

I don't care about the family drama of some millionaire privileged family, the game went to shit when it became about that (end of act 1)

>>737136179
How is it sad when it's the culmination of every plot thread and character arc? It necessarily forces you to evaluate and reevaluate everything you've known and learned about the world and it's characters, and how that ultimately influences your perspective on the ending, cause it affects literally everything.

>>737135686
I've heard some of the soundtrack has spoilers, glad I don't understand Franch.

>>737136307
Probably everyone in the area where Gustave was buried since he knew the spot. Go count the armbands or something.

>>737131709
The devs have all the telemetry data about who sided with Verso and who with Maelle. It was a giant social experiment disguised as a video game.

>>737134568
Retard alert retard alert
Antagonist means those opposing the protagonist
Protagonist means those whose story we follow
Dumb ass redditor
Talk about the paradox of tolerance or soemthing else you misunderstand next do it do ittttt

>>737131893
He didn't create shit though, that was Aline and the others

>>737136307
Basically every expedition he came into contact with after expedition zero.

>>737136389
I'd honestly pay good money to see the stats. I really wish they release them at some point.

>>737136389
Verso gods won the polls btw. I’d be legitimately concerned if Maelle won solely due to how the game frames the choice. It’s not an invalid choice but it’s clearly framed as unhealthy

Next question: why is the curator not doing shit. I know Renoir is trapped inside the monolith so does that just mean the curator is on auto pilot 99% of the time?

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>>737131709
>No you can't enjoy what magically feels like a full life without disability in this world where you have a close group of friends who care about you because i'm a boomer and you have to pull yourself up by your bootstraps *slaps you on your heavily burnt back*

>>737136201
I'm not even whatever resident schizo you guys have. The plot is just really obviously AI generated if you ever played around with AI around the time this game came out. Sorry you can't handle that simple truth.

>>737136614
Alines better than him. He just has to wait for Clea’s nevrons to slowly chip away at the chroma so he could escape

>>737136526
everyone itt is literally being maelle everyday by shitposting here instead of improving their lives tho

>>737131709
I don't know because I can't remember a thing after the beginning of Act 1 of this game. It was weak, pretentious drivel.

>>737136310
This is my take too, she couldn't remove the fire entirely from her memory so she just acted like Alicia was the only victim.

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>>737134568
Anyone intelligent believes that ALL the Dessendres are selfish pieces of shit, bar perhaps the real Verso who we never meet. It's also not a god "complex" when you are essentially an actual god with the ability to create entire worlds and sentient life to inhabit them. They ARE gods and the fact that the game promotes their interpersonal drama as the only thing that really matters is where the story lost me. I hated all of them by the end and just wanted a happy ending for Lune, Sciel and the rest of the canvas people suffering under their tyranny.

>>737136708
Yea but I don't understand what the curator is doing in the meantime, is he semi conscious? Is renoir able to control him somewhat? You can see him get triggered at the mention of axons and then he makes the barrier breaker but if he wanted them to reach the monolith he could have helped them a lot more

>>737132261
He did. Or did you miss the points where he did. Did you also miss the points where he clearly references trying to keep Aline away from the painting multiple times and trying to work with her, but every time she goes back in until this last time where he just decided, "Fuck it, the painting has to go."?

Jesus, it's like Maellefags just conveniently forget every interaction in the game that does not conform to their, "Alicia was a good girl who dindu nuffin wrong!"

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>>737131709
ENTER

>>737136205
What they said and what they wrote are 2 different things. Alicia is the villain, and no matter how much they don't want to upset the shippers, modern audience, and feminists, that won't change.

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>>737131709
It's pic related I'm afraid.

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>>737136923
He had a lot of free time

>>737136614
>>737136923
He's probably some kind of astral projection, meaning he's fully conscious but doesn't have all his powers. The Paintress at the manor is probably similar while the one we fight at the monolith is the real deal.

>>737131709
I really liked how both him and his painted version had the opposite goal but they were both right

>>737136689
>around the time this game came out
So the entire plot was written a few months before release?

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>>737136526
They brought it on themselves by not being able to handle their trauma properly and made it an entire civilization of people's problem against their will. Sciel experienced just as much, if not more grief and trauma than the Dessandres, but she learned how to deal with her grief in a healthy and productive way. What gives the Dessandres the right to ruin the lives of everyone around them for the sake of their trauma?

>>737136884
>the game promotes their interpersonal drama as the only thing that really matters is where the story lost me.
No it doesn't. That's what Maelle's ending is for.

>>737136526
Ultimately it comes down to "would you commit omnicide to save your family". I think one option is a lot more unhealthy than the other

>>737136957
>Did you also miss the points where he clearly references trying to keep Aline away from the painting multiple times and trying to work with her, but every time she goes back in until this last time where he just decided, "Fuck it, the painting has to go."?
Yes. Care to provide evidence to support that claim?

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>>737131709

>>737137815
Not that anon but maybe you should play the game

>>737137754
They were already dead. Renoir killed them all. The only victims at that point are the gestrals

>>737137904
If the citizens of lumiere were still alive the ending choice would still be the same, Renoir wants to destroy the canvas and Maelle doesnt. Verso would still jump in after seeing Aline.

>>737137861
>No evidence
He says she'll always try to return to the painting, not that she ALREADY has tried returning. There is never any mention of Renoir trying to keep Aline away from the painting multiple times, we only know Aline jumped in the first time and never came out and Renoir immediately tried to force her out.

>>737137861
Please, post them. Renoir saying "she will always find it" isn't evidence. Dude could have locked the canvas up or whisked it away somewhere in the city or at a friends place/storage

This is the funniest part of the whole thing to me.
>Maelle hides the painting and super duper swears that Aline won't find it and begs Renoir not to obliterate the canvas.
>Since time in the real world moves a lot slower and since Aline appears the the boss fight against Renoir it must have taken her all of 12 seconds to find where Maelle hid the painting and dive right back into it.

>>737131709
Killing an entire country worth of people to make your wife less sad is at least somewhat morally gray, anon.
Especially if your wife doesn't want you to wipe out that country to begin with.

>>737138214
Clea definitely ratted them out.

>>737138507
Didn't even think of that. That's even funnier.

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>>737138507
>Aline 5 seconds after exiting the canvas

>>737138164
>Renoir saying "she will always find it" isn't evidence.
How about her finding it within minutes after Alicia hid it so well that even Clea was impressed? Is that evidence?
>Dude could have locked the canvas up or whisked it away somewhere in the city or at a friends place/storage
And she'd still find it. They have magic powers. If that was at all an option, Renoir would take it since he doesn't want to destroy it.

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>>737138667

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>>737138667
Well at least she noped out of the painting right after the kaiju fight

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>>737136884
>the game promotes their interpersonal drama as the only thing that really matters
I see it as a sort of unreliable/biased narrator thing. By the time you get to Act 3, the perspective shifts from the Expedition to Alicia and pVerso, for whom the painting doesn't really matter, they're too focused on their family drama to care about the lesser (in their view) painted beings.

>>737138760
>How about her finding it within minutes after Alicia hid it so well that even Clea was impressed? Is that evidence?
No. We're talking about Aline making multiple attempts to enter the painting BEFORE Renoir decided to just use force.

>And she'd still find it. They have magic powers.
Where is it stated that Aline has magic GPS tracking powers? Clea and Alicia thought about hiding the canvas. You act like every action Renoir took was the most optimal decision he could've made.

>>737131709
he is right but as always the methods were extreme so it makes it harder to be totally on his side. genociding the painting people was too extreme, just because they are creations of people who live in a higher realm of existence does not mean their lives are disposable. Forcing Aline out would've been easy if he waited till she was weak from over exposure to the painted world, boot her out then hide the painting away somewhere safe. Given the family's obvious status hiding it away outside of the manor should've been easy, but instead he picked a fight with his grieving wife while she was at her most powerful then had to rely on a traumatized teenager to save them both, because neither could be the adults in the room.

>>737139357
>No. We're talking about Aline making multiple attempts to enter the painting BEFORE Renoir decided to just use force.
The post I was replying to was specifically more about her ability to find it, or at least that's how I read it. I'm not who he was originally arguing with.
>Where is it stated that Aline has magic GPS tracking powers?
Explicitly? Nowhere. But something like that is a reasonable assumption based on how fast she finds it and the fact that Renoir knows she'll find it and won't even try to hide it. Again, he doesn't want to destroy it. If he belived hiding it would work, he'd do that.

>>737139449
>Forcing Aline out would've been easy if he waited till she was weak from over exposure to the painted world
She's already really sick in the real world and still had 30 years left. Waiting long enough that he could overpower her could leave her with permanent damage. And it's possible that's not even how it works. The painters might not get gradually weaker in canvas as they get sick irl, meaning he might not be able to force her out.
>then hide the painting away somewhere safe
That's not an option. She'll always find it. Renoir doesn't want to destroy the canvas. If there was another option, he wouldn't.

>>737140118
That is taking renoir on his word about things he doesn't fully know either. He promises Alicia that things will get better if she comes out of the canvas but somehow that is not the case for Aline? What makes her grief different from Alicia's?

>>737139864
>something like that is a reasonable assumption based on how fast she finds it and the fact that Renoir knows she'll find it and won't even try to hide it.
Clea and Alicia try to hide it. Are they stupid?

>>737131709
Sephiroth was also right, and so was Seymour.

I bet all you fags who sympathized with the painted people felt nothing towards the androids in Detroit Become Human. At least they existed in the real world.

>>737140118
>that's not an option
I don't see why it isn't, what would Aline do, force her way into someone else's house or a hidden vault to get to the canvas? The only places they try to hide the canvas at all is the house she lives in, of course she will find it in that case. which is why you remove it from the house for safe keeping

>>737140343
I dont play david cage garbage movie "games"

>>737140343
I feel nothing towards any of the characters in Detroit because David Cage is a hack

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>>737140343
I don't play movie games, but cl*nkers deserve no rights.

>>737131709
Dunno,
Dropped the game after the second act when the story became retarded and meaningless

>>737140217
>That is taking renoir on his word about things he doesn't fully know either
I'm going to assume that a man who has hundreds of years of painting experience knows more about how it works than some 4channers. If Renoir thinks Aline has some magic paint sense that can locate paintings, that's most likely true. Especially when Aline finds the well-hidden painting within minutes after Renoir said that would happen.
>He promises Alicia that things will get better if she comes out of the canvas but somehow that is not the case for Aline? What makes her grief different from Alicia's?
What do you mean?
>>737140276
>Clea and Alicia try to hide it. Are they stupid?
I know this is a meme post but that was probably more to buy time to destroy it before Aline can jump back in
>>737140420
>what would Aline do, force her way into someone else's house or a hidden vault to get to the canvas?
Maybe. Then she'd get put into an asylum for acting crazy. Renoir probably wants to avoid that considering what early 20th century asylums were like.

>>737140276
they hid it like a toddler hides when playing hide and seek man, of course Aline will notice the massive canvas shaped lump underneath the covers of a bed.

>>737140531
Holy based

>>737137698
Maelle treats the people of the canvas as puppets there for her own amusement. She deludes herself into thinking otherwise, but ultimately the entire point of her ending is that not only is she a prisoner of her own delusions, so is everybody else - pVerso most of all, but frankly I didn't give a shit about him or his trauma by the end anyway. Play the piano for me, bitch.

>>737140661
Alicia hid it well enough for Clea of all people to be impressed and compliment her. It wasn't just any hiding spot.

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>>737140649
>If Renoir thinks Aline has some magic paint sense that can locate paintings, that's most likely true.
Pic related Renoir is not infallible

>Maybe. Then she'd get put into an asylum for acting crazy.
She willingly leaves the canvas after the final battle, proving that you, and Renoir, are not giving her enough credit.

>>737140457
>>737140501
>>737140531
Three different answers bitching about who made the game, but not one of you faggots even cared about the actual point. Nothing in this thread was even about the lame parryslop "gameplay" of E33.

>>737140697
>Maelle treats the people of the canvas as puppets there for her own amusement.
*Loud incorrect buzzer sound*

>She deludes herself into thinking otherwise, but ultimately the entire point of her ending is that not only is she a prisoner of her own delusions, so is everybody else
*Loud incorrect buzzer sound*

>pVerso most of all
*Correct buzzer sound*

>>737140743
hid it well enough within the same house Aline was still in, sure but that doesn't make it a very good hiding spot in general, especially because she easily discovers it later. Shipping the painting off and never disclosing the location until things settle down would've solved the problem and spared that entire painted world.

>>737140960
I enjoyed E33's gameplay. It might not be top tier, I don't see anything beating Bravely Default anytime soon, but I liked it more than most JRPGs I played.

>>737140960
And the mask slips off

>>737141029
Sorry that you're a retard, anon. I hope they find a cure.

>>737140908
>She willingly leaves the canvas after the final battle, proving that you, and Renoir, are not giving her enough credit.
yeah if anything Renoir's insistence on destroying the painting only motivated her to stay to defend it, though one can make the case that she only gets perspective on the situation after getting booted out by Alicia and Painted Verso.

>>737132285
>trust fund baby experiencing any hardship or struggle so he can write a compelling character, protag or antag
LOL

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Why couldn't you just CLEAN YOUR FUCKING ROOM?

>>737140908
>Pic related Renoir is not infallible
Sure, but he still knows more than us. He has his reasons to think and do what he does. And he gets proven right in his claim that Aline will find it.
>She willingly leaves the canvas after the final battle,
True, but that's a little too late. By then Alicia is a problem too and she was helping her stay in the canvas. Maybe she just decided to take a break so she can stay in the canvas longer afterwards. If she had really learned anything, she wouldn't help Alicia make the same mistake.
>>737141097
>Shipping the painting off and never disclosing the location
That might work to keep her our but she'd likely look for it, freak out in public and then get sent to an asylum. That's not exactly any better.

>>737141656
aline getting sent to an asylum is much better than killing a shitton of people and risking your daughter getting caught in the same trap your wife did, actually.

>>737141564
But Tsubame already did it for me. And made dinner. And gave me a footrub. Look, I'm not enslaving her. She just does it.

>>737132261
He did, he absolutely did. But neither Aline or Alicia listened.

>>737135878
That's because AIs trained off of video games like these.

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>>737131709
>Is he the most objectively right antagonist in vidya?
i actually do think it's Renoir at #1 but picrel is up there

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>>737136689
>i'm not a schizo but [schizo babble]

>>737141398
That seems to be the implication no one is talking about. Renoir basically forced the conflict on Aline and put her into a 60 year long stalemate, where Aline is constantly denied the opportunity to actually grieve, forced to watch the world that's supposed to be a safe space for her be turned into one filled with death and decay, robbing her of the one place where she can feel again.

>>737136689
post arm immediately

>>737142662
Yea one thing the game does is show that the entire family is handling grief in a bad way. One a lot more destructive than the other but I also wonder how much Clea is fucking up in their world with her war against the writers. Renoir is a typical "alright you had your time now we do X".

>>737142910
the implication in regards to Clea I was always thought that she allowed things at home to deteriorate because instead of being with her family, she isolated herself in her work.

>>737143060
She is angry and needs to direct her emotions outwards to something, if it's not the writers she would probably bully alicia or something

>>737141656
>Sure, but he still knows more than us. He has his reasons to think and do what he does.
And his reasons are clouded by his grief just like the rest of them. He says so himself that he NEEDED to fix things, he NEEDED control.

>And he gets proven right in his claim that Aline will find it.
And then proven wrong in his claim that she'll never give up the canvas.

>True, but that's a little too late. By then Alicia is a problem too and she was helping her stay in the canvas
Because Renoir was making the same mistake he made with Aline, pushing his loved ones to unhealthy extremes instead of giving them space in their time of grief. It was only too late for Renoir, as he already pushed Alicia to the extreme just like he did to Aline.

>That might work to keep her our but she'd likely look for it, freak out in public and then get sent to an asylum.
You already admitted she was capable of letting go of the canvas. She isn't some raving schizoid, even after 67 years in the painting. Literally all she likely needed was space and time, but you, and Renoir, insist, just as Renoir did to Alicia, that Aline was incapable of looking out for herself

>>737131996
>They're not real.

It's retards like you who forced the developers to come out and state that no, the people of Lumiere are absolutely real.

The whole game is just a massive play on mythologies from the Antiquity:
>A group of (not quite) immortal and (not quite) all powerful god-like entities create a world and fill it with life, then proceed to fuck it up over their own petty dramas and strifes.

What's even funnier is that Renoir is actually MORE powerful than your average Apollo or Athena.

>>737143060
She's angry and is in need of her father to be the leader of the family. She frames it as needing him for her mission against the writers, but within the context of her fight being how she's handling her grief, it reframes it as her needing her father to be there for her in her time of grief, just as Alicia needs her parents. Clea criticizes Renoir for trying to save someone who wasn't asking for help, the unspoken implication is that there are two other people in the family that ARE asking for help.

>>737139269
>Come to terms with their grief.
>A crippled and traumatised Alicia is standing there, alone.
>Her family members don't hug her, don't hold her, don't even look at her or acknowledge her.
>The Paris they're in is probably another Painting, as well, unless Paris suddenly became really blurry and December suddenly has 33 days.
>The last shot is of this girl, constantly in pain and misery, getting one last glimpse of the only people who gave a shit about her.

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>>737143858

>>737136884
>They ARE gods and the fact that the game promotes their interpersonal drama as the only thing that really matters is where the story lost me.

Wait until you read a little thing called The Illiad...

>>737143858
>>The Paris they're in is probably another Painting, as well, unless Paris suddenly became really blurry and December suddenly has 33 days.
They are creations of the Writers, their world exists within a book, this explains why they have magic powers in their reality. Clea is fighting for the survival of her own world just as the expedition is fighting for their world. Versofags will be on suicide watch when Sandfalls next game reveals this.

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>>737144125
Writers vs painters in the same realm but in the end the actual dev enters the game and cocklaps everyone, he then turns to directly look at the player and you can hear someone knocking on your front door

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How fucked in the head was Clea to come up with the Nevron designs?

>>737131893
>sentient life
Just like a AI robot still not life

>>737144570
She's a 1900's Goth

imagine being betrothed to clea and having to live in that huge manor and having to deal with her verbally abusing you haha that would suck so much

>>737144647
Devs debunked that, they were real people, only governed by different metaphysical laws.

File: Painted Renoir by Tylor Hepner.jpg (2.2 MB)

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>>737136884
The people of the canvas are morally superior to the Dessendres, from what I could see within the game, and that was sufficient for me to side with them. They can deal with grief, persevere through impossible odds, endure losses of friends and family, give up their lives for others to succeed them if necessary and still keep on going and draw strength form one another.
All that we know about the non-painted people is that until Verso died, all they were, was a bunch of nobles devoid of any real hardship, living in a castle playing god, and they lost their shit completely and irreversibly once one of their own died in a fire.

>>737132261
he explicitly tried to speak to his wife but she was too delusional to listen which is why he has to take drastic measures to begin with
People forget that Renoir probably would not have tried to destroy the canvas if Aline wasn't such a stupid cunt having a woman moment.
We are never truly given an outside perspective or explanation on how "real" the denizens of the canvas are, the only info we get of the outside world are glimpses and fragments so ultimately you can form your own opinion on if the painted people are real living beings or just facsimiles like NPCs in a video game, we will never truly know.

Verso's ending is moving on, Maelle's endng is embracing escapism

>>737146689
It's only escapism if you believe they are not real. You said it yourself, we are never truly given enough information to make that determination, although the developers themselves had come out and said that they are real people. This is Alicia picking her family for herself, she chose a different one. I would have chosen a different one too, the Dessendre household is completely dysfunctional, mansion or no mansion.

>>737131893
>make an ant farm from 1 queen to study it
>fill the farm with mercury because they piss you off one day
>think nothing of it because you gathered the info you wanted anyway
what's wrong with this?

>>737147269
Ants aren't sentient.

>>737147315
They are you illiterate retard, if only at an extremely base level. They are, however, not sapient.

>>737147568
Being pedantic won't change the nature of the error of your callous analogy.

>>737146223
>they were real people
They were paintings, cope

>>737147720
Actually, they were pixels.

>>737143637
>chat gbt talks to me so its real!!!

>>737131709
vERSO ENDING BEST ENDING

>>737147315
??? even plants are sentient, there are saplings that curled up their leaves when dropped to protect themselves that then stop doing that on repeated drops when they realize they'll survive the fall anyway.

if you mow the grass, you're a fucking monster!!!

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>>737131709
samefag

>Barrage of nigger tier posts suddenly
Well, we had a good run and some actual discussion. It was nice while it lasted

I killed everyone
Bawled like a bitch
RIP Lune your feet were hot but my family is more important

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>Please Verso-sama, I..want to live.

>>737133803
>>737143637
If we could achieve a lifelike imitation of a person digitally, it would not make it 'alive'. For it to be alive would require it to have a metabolism and the ability to reproduce, providing mutations and evolution with time.
The imitation would only be 'alive' in it's digital environment, but to those who are from outside the digital reality, it would always be a digital imitation instead of a living thing. We wouldn't count as living beings if we were a simulation made by a higher dimensional being, at least to them, because they can just turn our existence on and off on a whim. Same reason why a digital 3D rock isn't a real rock.

>>737150082
Also to add, we ourselves are not really alive, but our bodies are. We're basically biological machines that operate on chemicals and chemical reactions rather than just electricity.

>>737146689
>he explicitly tried to speak to his wife but she was too delusional to listen
[Citation needed]

>>737146689
>We are never truly given an outside perspective or explanation on how "real" the denizens of the canvas are
I think, therefore I am

>>737147269
Our arrogant sense of self importance and superiority over the natural world

>>737147720
And you're atoms, cope.

>>737150917
I was created by real people created by God, paintings are and will always be paintings, Renoir is based and redpilled youre just a candidate for drug addiction

>>737150082
>For it to be alive would require it to have a metabolism and the ability to reproduce, providing mutations and evolution with time.
So the painted people are real people.

>>737150973
Painted people were created by people created by God, who themselves are people created by God.

>>737150673
They would be real if they were painted into the same reality as the painters themselves. The fact that Lumiere exists inside a physical canvas, instead of the canvas itself being sentient, makes it effectively not alive.
Lumiere is imaginary because it does not exist in the real world. Simple as that. AI isn't a real person, not because it's not sentient enough, but because it exists as bits on a storage block instead of emerging from the machine itself into the real world as a physical being.

>>737151046
No, because they exist inside a painting instead of the real world. They are imaginary creations, not beings in another dimension or universe.

>>737151151
You can't prove you're not inside a physical canvas, unable to emerge from a machine into the real world as a physical being.

>>737151228
>Moving the goalpost
The people outside the canvas don't know if they aren't also inside a painting or a book or a video game.

YOU don't know if you aren't inside a painting or computer simulation.

>>737151324
>You can't prove you're not inside a physical canvas
And I don't need to, because there is no evidence suggesting that I'm in one. The same applies to the people of Lumiere, but only to them. To everyone outside the painting, AKA the real world, Lumiere doesn't exist, only the painting of Lumiere exists.
For something to be 'real and alive', it must exist as a physical entity in our reality. An AI, for example, could be called real only if it had a physical manifestation and both the AI and the manifestation would be tied to one another, effectively making it the brain and the body.
Lumiere isn't emerging as a sentience through the painting so you have to go into the painting to interact with Lumiere, which is more akin to putting on a VR headset than anything.

>>737131709
Dunno, skipped his game...

>>737151609
You can't prove a negative. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

>>737151468
>>737151981
Existence is relative, my man. If we were revealed definitive facts that we are indeed in a simulation created by a higher dimensional being, would you still think you are real even if you knew for a fact that your whole reality is just something like magic paint, splashed around on a canvas instead of actual atoms and particles?
This is the whole thing the ending wants you to think about.

>>737152123
The answer is yes. I think, therefore I am.

Would you?

>>737149416
It wasn't as rough as the Esquie and Monoco part but it was especially sad when you do her side stuff before this and realize she's ecstatic about seeing her husband again. Then in an instant, after it was won, Verso flipped the switch.

>>737152218
Quoting Descartes is moronic in this situation because we do not know for a fact that the people of Lumiére actually think instead of being believable AI-like entities. You have to know what the physical process of your own thinking is before you can actually define sentience, and more importantly, the act of thinking as an observable and recordable phenomenon to identify something having the ability to think.
We humans could run like high-level AIs or be something very much much much more complicated and varied, but we simply do not understand what a 'thought' is aside from a personal experience.
The reason why it's called philosophy instead of science is because it's not science.

>>737152634
>irrelevant bullshit to deflect from the fact that people of Lumiere had children, died of old age or accidents, developed complex plans, built up military, industry, developed culture, traditions, composed music, sang songs, mourned their dead, feared for their lives, passed on information, taught each other and in rare instances could wield the power of the painters themselves

>>737152634
You're just explaining that there's no fee l discernable difference, therefore it's pointless to get caught up on that. Every observable metric that makes us human applies to the painted people. We spend the entire game in their POV. Were they not real people to you before you found out the truth? Or do you only question their humanity because you are told they live outside the "real" world? Does the revelation about the canvas recontextualize how you viewed the characters as humans?

>>737153059
You can simulate everything with enough detail, what is your point?
The decision boils down to if you believe something can be simulated to the point of it being alive and relating to that, or weighing in more on that Lumiére is a very realistic VR experience inside of a literal painting.
>>737153168
>Every observable metric that makes us human applies to the painted people
Except that we know for a fact that Lumiére was created by someone with magic paint on a canvas. If we measured only be how realistic and lifelike they are, we could call AI alive today.

>>737131709
>objectively right
>The game is all about the painters doing stupid shit, all of them
>Too dense to understand why The Architect is wrong

Ignorance is bliss anon, except to the ones around you

>>737153168
>>737153059
Ok, the painters themselves aren't actually real or alive either because they are created by the french for the video game E33.
We can argue how alive or real anything is by changing our point of reference, ERGO, from the point of view of the painters, Lumiére was not real and the main characters were both effectively painters, the other being literally dead to add. They were all just enjoying family KINO.

>>737153451
>Except that we know for a fact that Lumiére was created by someone with magic paint on a canvas.
And how is that logic any different from the belief of any religion?

>If we measured only be how realistic and lifelike they are, we could call AI alive today.
No we couldn't. They are not on the same level of complexity as the people in the painting.

>>737153717
>from the point of view of the painters, Lumiére was not real
*Loud incorrect buzzer nose*

>>737153451
Or you're just inventing shit to convolute the subject matter because you cannot admit to being wrong in an online argument.

>>737153778
>And how is that logic any different from the belief of any religion?
It isn't. There is no real reason or evidence to believe any religion logically. I personally do not think there is any higher dimensional entities that had the ability to create us, but who the hell knows.
>No we couldn't. They are not on the same level of complexity as the people in the painting.
Not yet, but at the speed AI is developing right now, we could create virtual entities indistinguishable from real humans in a matter of decades.
>>737153891
>>737153817
There is literally no right or wrong since it all depends on how you look at it.
Are you the father/brother type that won't let your daughter/sister's trauma keep her from living her life and working through or are you the type that thinks that living a happy life, no matter the state of existence, is more important.

>>737154072
> I personally do not think there is any higher dimensional entities that had the ability to create us, but who the hell knows.
But would you still think you are real even if you knew for a fact that your whole reality was conjured by a higher being on an inaccessible plane of existence above your own?

>at the speed AI is developing right now, we could create virtual entities indistinguishable from real humans in a matter of decades.
The part you're leaving out is the "created by magic paint powers" part of the equation. Comparing any aspect of the canvas to AI programming is a false equivalence, especially when the canvas is brought to life by a literal human soul.