Thread #3932790
File: M9U3nBFEYYex1Y2wZYZ.mp4 (1.1 MB)
1.1 MB MP4
I'll start
FFV is the only Final Fantasy that still holds up extremely well all around, at least in its original version
359 RepliesView Thread
Showing all 359 replies.>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
I think all the old FFs hold up great. Whenever I replay them after long breaks I'm actually a little surprised by how much fun I have with them. The only ones of the first 9 I haven't replayed are 2, 8, and 9. I'm curious how 8 will feel to me since I haven't played it since release.
.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3932816
Thinking an RPG needs the "job system" to "hold up" is retarded.
The only real issue dating IV is the lack of in-game documentation for equipment, meaning you have to switch back and forth between the equip and status screens (which plebs don't do, and so have no idea what they're even doing when they equip their characters). And some effects aren't even expressed at all, like status resistances.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
File: oersted.gif (20.8 KB)
20.8 KB GIF
I kinda like Squaresoft's (SNES/PS1-era) "experimental RPGs" like Xenogears or Live A Live a lot more than I like the Final Fantasy series as a whole
>>
>>
>>3932790
I've come to dislike the Final Fantasy-style job system. I end up feeling like I'm continually unlocking components of some hypothetical future build that I maybe get to use near the end of the game, if at all. Using mastered classes is more fun, but sticking with a mastered class instead of unlocking more stuff feels like a waste.
These days I prefer Final Fantasy 1's approach to classes. I also appreciate that it's one of the few games in the series with meaningful resource management.
>>
>>3932966
>I end up feeling like I'm continually unlocking components of some hypothetical future build that I maybe get to use near the end of the game, if at all. Using mastered classes is more fun, but sticking with a mastered class instead of unlocking more stuff feels like a waste.
>These days I prefer Final Fantasy 1's approach to classes.
Did you know that you can easily use the job system to give characters permanent classes? There’s absolutely nothing forcing you to try to min max by creating overpowered combinations à la carte.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3933013
>and then you same retards complain that in FF7 every character can do everything.
No.I actually enjoy restricting each character to their thematic class, and then only giving them the appropriate materia. Soothes my 'tism.
>>
File: 20260124_233048.jpg (138 KB)
138 KB JPG
RPGs and jrpgs take no player skill beyond literacy and patience to endure progrrssion systems. Unlike skill based games that require deep strategy and mechanical execution namely -- arcade style games, character action games, shmups, racers, fighters, puzzle games, beat em ups, etc.
>>
>>3932796
>IV has weaker graphics
The graphics are excellent, except for the minor issues mentioned here: >>3932844
There are tons of little details that are great, especially for a game from 1991. The satisfying way the damage digits animate, for example. FF in fact regressed on this and stopped animating damage digits after V. Most of the spell animations in FFIV are fantastic. Some of them have more frames of animation than their counterparts in FFV. Zeromus' big bang effect in the final battle is pure soul (many of the remakes don't even come close to getting it right).
It's true the the sprites are less expressive, but this is evolutionary, FFV is a marginal improvement. FFIV sprites did jump-spins where FFV had a bulging-eyeballs and explanation-point expression.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3933323
The digits appear as kind of a wave before settling. Each digit bounces individually. In FF6+ and FF1-3, the entire number bounces with no individual separation in the digits.
It's very tedious to explain though why not just look for yourself? It's easy to see.
>>
>>
>>
>>3933338
I did and was surprised by the little wave. I mean, it's neat, sure. Now that you mentioned it, could be done much better as in much more satisfying way. Curious that this has been ignored for like 30 years almost. Great eye for detail!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3933437
2 is my absolute favourite classic, but 4 has a lot of charm, too. I loved 7, but se ruined the entry for me. There are like 35 ff7 games or so, it's just ugly.
Ff2 is likely the most hated good ff. Rebel theme alone is worth a playthrough. Playing 4 revoluzzers is always fun.
>>
>>
>>
>>3932790
The insistence that JRPGs must be these incredibly linear, railroaded experiences with an emphasis on setpieces and cutscenes has done more damage to the genre than anything else, from both devs and players alike. RPG systems in general are best explored when the game itself caters for player freedom and expression.
>>
>>3932790
I think Final Fantasy is responsible for the decline of the genre. Between bad translations (not necessarily their direct fault) and extremely vague plots besides, combined with being the most popular for a minute surrounding FF7, JRPGs picked up a reputation of being incomprehensible gibberish. Persona was the kill shot, but Persona wouldn't have gotten the traction it did if more people were aware of JRPGs that have not-ass stories.
And the rest that followed is just circling the drain.
Also too many JRPGs have gotten addicted to anime titties when they should have gotten more weird gribblies, playable monsters, and other bizarre party members.
>>
>>
>>3933549
>I think Final Fantasy is responsible for the decline of the genre
I agree on one point and it's not any of the points you mentionned: the moment the genre started to casualize too much was the exact moment Squaresoft felt the need to re-release FF4 as an "Easy Type" version. It seems to have created a new standard. Up to that point Japanese audiances would constantly complain that their JRPGs were too hard, but none of the devs actually listened.
>>
>>3933503
>>3933630
Here's my spicy take - Famicom JRPG gameplay isn't inherently any better than the "less challenging" games that came later. Having to go back to town to heal a few times isn't especially challenging in reality, nor is reloading after a nasty encounter paralyzes your whole party. It can make the game feel cool in certain ways, and makes exploration feel more like expeditions into dangerous territory. That can be great, but it's not the only way to make a good or even challenging RPG, gameplay-wise.
An easy RPG that gives you a bunch of entertaining options to mess around with in battle can be more fun than one that's tightly balanced around making multiple trips into dungeons but generic and restrained feeling. Don't get me wrong, I still love Dragon Quest II and games like that. Just saying I don't see it as superior by default, and the difficulty is still mostly just friction for flavor rather than any serious challenge.
>>
>>3932823
You can change the job, sortof. The game was meant to have a deeper job system I think because if you bug the game to give yourself characters when you arent supposed to, they give them the dark knight class, Level 0, and they can only equip what dark knights can. I imagine what happens is that it generates a struct with 0 values across the board, where one of the values is an enumerator, of which the first value of that is a dark knight.
Remember, that game is EXTREMELY unfinished, unlike say 6.
> Its missing all the moon content ( Notice how you have every moon crystal to begin with, and the face on the moon does nothing ),
>the tower of babel is 3 towers ( I'm assuming one is supposed to be Zot where you save Rosa ),
>How the tower of babel itself has unused rooms and unused doors and unused orbs
>How some of the island nations start with low level weapons you could never equip to begin with, like the first "boomerang", implying you should have ventured there at some point
>How the twins are uncurable from petrify
>How the final area has paths to nowhere.
>How Silveria has unused hollow buildings
>How Mystia can be entered from the other side
>How the tree nation has a bunch of useless forest and bridges and a hidden chocobo nest as well as a huge area of unused land
Before the devs die, someone should dig around and see if they actually have the full script of that game.
>>3933175
>less expressive
Thats a good thing. Use your imagination anon.
>>3932995
>4 is boring
You start the game by genociding vietnamese wizards, killing a lolis parents, kidnapping her, forcing her to be your slave while you seek revenge, and making her fall in love with you in a case of stockholm syndrome, only for her to die under your watch, and then for you to die and become resurrected as a paladin, and then for both of you to unwittingly meet eachother again, but now she is of legal age because she grew up in the monster realm and aged faster.
>>
File: images(11).jpg (33.8 KB)
33.8 KB JPG
Final Fantasy Adventure is better than any Zelda game.
>>
>>3933605
Kingdom Hearts is not a true JRPG and no real JRPG fan considers it anything close to the genre. Its story being gibberish is the result of it going beyond the first game when they never planned for it to be a franchise.
>>
>>
>>3933630
>Squaresoft felt the need to re-release FF4 as an "Easy Type" version
Back when they released it a s FFII in the US?
Also, what do you mean by JRPGs were too hard, they were considered easy compared to Western RPGs with their infamous grind back in the day.
>>
>>3933630
Actually yeah, that is a good point.
That's around the time where I think the idea that JRPGs had a ton of fake complexity, because you beat the game by clicking Attack until credits roll came up, which is another shit berry the genre has had to shake.
Fuck. What was it. Blue Dragon, Xbox 360 JRPG, very very Toriyama visuals, Toriyama men having Persona battles with their Toriyama animal Stands. That one was a super, super strong example of this. There's the job system and a lot of depth for building characters, and lots of bosses have developed mechanics, and none of that matters in the slightest because you can beat the entire game by attacking. I think the optional superbosses finally crest into "you should have probably read your abilities, and maybe picked up a few extra abilities before this fight" territory. I understand there's a hard mode patch (Hard as in, you will have to engage with boss mechanics and make basic character building decicions) that fixes this, but the default state of the game being piss easy is what I mean.
And, FF7, the one that everyone knows and got popular, is definitely in this family.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3933982
FFVII seemed bigger for RPGs though, probably because it was more traditional rather than monster catching like Pokemon. Pokemon is its own subgenre, and a lot of people who loved Pokemon didn't seem to get into other RPGs. Meanwhile, it seems more people playing FFVII, and then decided to try other RPGs looking for more.
By sheer numbers, Pokemania was bigger for sure, and I'm sure even a small percentage of Pokemon fans seeking out other RPGs made a difference. But FFVII made RPGs way more popular than ever before in the West, so whatever gains to RPG popularity Pokemon brought, it was adding on top of the boost caused by FFVII's popularity.
They were releasing all those PSX RPGs here because of FFVII more so than Pokemon, for example.
>>
File: YHVH.png (1018 KB)
1018 KB PNG
i enjoy the idea of shin megami tensei, but i decided i don't really like playing it. combat is a bore and demon negotation involves too many stat checks and doesn't seem to reward saying the right thing
>>
>>
>>
>>3934041
Pokemon was directly inspired by DQ5, and then picked up a handful of traits from other monster tamers.
Iirc, the initial idea of Pokemon was actually just a way for two people to have their monsters fight eachother in DQ5, that gradually morphed into what into what it is.
This is why so many gen 1 pokemon draw from DQ/Toriyama design principles, it wasn't just the cultural zeitgeist at the time.
>>
>>3934049
Pokemon is an amalgamation of many different games and ideas. Games like SaGa 1 showed that they could do a RPG on the handheld, also in SaGa there is no MP system but charges and varying skills having different number of charges. Which that is an off shoot of Final Fantasy, and Final Fantasy was only done because the higher ups were shown RPGs did have an audience due to Dragon Quests success.
>>
>>
>>
>>3933873
>Back when they released it a s FFII in the US?
No, I mean the JPN version. FFII US is based on Easy Type, not the other way around, or rather it branched out from a version of Easy Type that was in development. It went: FFIV JP released -> they start working on Easy Type JP -> they start working on the US localization so what they did is take the latest version they have as a base, which was WIP Easy Type -> both versions are now in dev at the same time and come out independantly.
>what do you mean by JRPGs were too hard,
I don't mean that *I* think they were too hard. I mean there were a lot of customers that complained they were too hard. You can look up the reception of any famous Famicom RPG on wikipedia or JPN sites and every single time you'll find out there were complains on that subject. The average JRPG player was always very casual and just about everyone in Japan, there are lot's of stories of people playing DQ games with their parents etc not just the hardcore enthusiasts that had a computer and went to import shops to buy and play western made RPGs not released in Japan.
The point is Easy Type was made for these Japanese customers that wanted an easier time and I consider that release the starting point of the a new standards for difficulty for the genre
>>3933634
Saying it's all about coming back to the INN a few times is very reductive. Famicom RPGs that do things right FORCE the player to make choices and to make the right ones, and if you don't you're gonna get fucked; even if/when those choices are limited this keeps things engaging because the player needs to pay attention all the time in combat. You can't just spam attack and not even think of which enemy you're targetting and it doesn't matter because they'll deal pitifuly damage and even when they don't you have 200 potions in your inventory.
>>
>>3934162
I wasn't aware that the easier version was released in Japan back then as well. But that puts the time of it happening right at the start of the snes era, and it's not only RPGs that became easier. Everyone should be able to beat the game, if they put enough time into it, was a goal back then after all.
It's also my main point of comparison, as the SNES being the console I have the most experience with and hence its games are what I compare the Western RPGs to in my mind. From my limited NES experience though I'd say that FF III already was easier compared to the first 2 entries in the series.
>>
>>3934162
>Saying it's all about coming back to the INN a few times is very reductive.
Yeah, it's reductive but the whole thing is still just about as easy as any later RPG. Things like choosing which enemy to attack in FF1 or the DQ games is still really simple, as is being more careful with your potions. Yes, I agree it makes you have to pay a bit more attention to random battles so it's more engaging in that sense, but it's not necessarily very interesting. The correct choices are usually trivial to figure out, and then you repeat them. Not auto-retargeting in FF1 adds choices and engagement, but it's also kind of annoying and can make battles feel like more of a slog.
It can be fun though. Properly balanced resource management and encounter design can create an entertaining rhythm with exploration. It's just not the only way to create a fun RPG and doesn't work for every type of experience. Resource management hardly matters in the SNES and PSX FFs, but most people enjoy those more than the NES games regardless. There's something to be said for most random battles being mindless excuses to mess around with your abilities, while mixing in some more engaging encounters and boss fights. Playing with materia combinations in FFVII is more interesting than most things in the NES games.
>>
>>
>>3934731
>"Levels" is a pointless system that exists purely as filler to drag the game out and makes it impossible to balance
Sounds like levels are actually quite helpful for balancing. I think what you mean is "the ability for the player to arbitrarily overlevel their characters, limited only by their patience and tolerance of tedium"
>>
>>3932790
ff5 is godly, ff7 and ff8 hold up very well too gameplay wise. I wish FF9 had better gameplay, faster combat cuz the story and shit is excellent. FF6 is very strong with the BNW patch - far from the original version but i adore that it now has gameplay matching its story and presentation . FF11 rebalance romhack whence?
>>
File: beatles jrpg.jpg (24.7 KB)
24.7 KB JPG
Spicy JRPG takes? The Beatles were a JRPG.
>Initials literally spell JRPG
>There is a mix of regular person names like "John" and wacky weird names like "Ringo Starr"
>Critics make attempts to retroactively shoehorn big symbolism and meaning into large sections of it when most of it was made "because it's cool and fun and what I like"
>Even if you don't like the story, the soundtrack is famous and was widely lauded
>The plot takes them from a run down but friendly starter town to taking on the world
>They get flight and explore new continents at the midway point of the plot
>They take on God and/or The Church ("we're bigger than jesus")
>The characters all go in weird directions during the final act
>There's a major character death which is still discussed to this day
>There's an annoying love interest
>Attempts to make spinoffs and sequels kinda suck
>Hella merchandising
>But they DID make an animated movie spinoff regardless
>Arguably, playing music means they have a rhythm minigame
>>
>>
>>
>>3932790
DQ more consistent than FF overall but FF at its peak is better than DQ at its peak.
Anyone who says Mother 1 or 3 > 2 has the IQ of a poorly embalmed body.
There's no JRPG from the PS2 era onwards that doesn't have a better alternative on SNES/PS1.
I've never met a Persona fan that looked like he had testosterone in his body.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
File: 16038_689632.jpg (61.5 KB)
61.5 KB JPG
>>3933535
Because that linear on-rails experience appeals to wider audience and is easier to balance. Fact that even remotely system-centric JRPGs are rare is quite sad while being indicative where the interest of genre's audience lies.
>>
>>
>>3935410
>There's no JRPG from the PS2 era onwards that doesn't have a better alternative on SNES/PS1.
I find it fascinating nothing has matched Romancing SaGa 2 in what it was trying to do and that shit was 30+ years ago. It's like no one even tried.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3933647
FFIV 3D was touted as having all the cut content and script from the classic restored by the devs that had to be axed because of time and technology, so if it's not in that, it was not something they ever thought was worthy to put in the game.
I think a lot of people these days just think every single random thought the devs had deserved to be fully implemented or else it was "unfinished"
>>
>>3935526 here
Disregard that, I was being a moody asshole at the time; MM's good too. Still, in regards to 2D Zelda, I personally think LTTP, LA, MC, and the Oracles are pretty good as well. Haven't played Four Swords or any of the modern ones yet, sadly.
>>
File: It's_All_So_Tiresome.jpg (41.2 KB)
41.2 KB JPG
>>3935531
>Spending like 15 minutes to draw hundreds of spells from enemies as soon as the next tier unlocks was such a bad experience
You control the buttons you press
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3935571
>>3935576
FF8 is an easy as fuck game.
The only way to play it optimally is by you holding back so the game isnt just aura + Limit Break spamming.
Like you wont ever need 100 spells for the absorb/inmune affinities except in specific situations (Status nulls for Marlboro or Inmunity to Lv5 Death).
I remember my magic only run and it was still a cake with just 50 of each spell (Except double/triple because magic is ass).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3935531
I don't draw full stacks of spells from enemies, i use the various item/card/magic refine abilities in the menu lol. FF9 combat is shallow and sadly the animation times are suuuuuuuper long. I love the story and aesthetics of ff9 don't get me wrong. Getting a new skill from getting a rare weapon or accessory is a really satisfying mechanic but I think this mechanic contributes to how shallow the combat is
when i play ff8 instead of drawing from one target a hundred times instead im trying to turn an enemy into a card ( and failing twice lol) or hunting for a rare spawn. To your benefit for a game with so many tutorials they don't encourage you to play the game other than the way You, anon have been playing the game. They teach you about draw spamming and they teach you about rare spawns ( T-Rex) and how to use status junction to kill a rare spawn but they should have gone a step further and taught you how to refine T-rex bones
>>
>>3936092
>They teach you about draw spamming and they teach you about rare spawns ( T-Rex) and how to use status junction to kill a rare spawn but they should have gone a step further and taught you how to refine T-rex bones
The game tells you to check the tutorial menu (available at any time), and this menu explains everything.
>>
>>
File: B1KcB6NUPqfulExkiyUg8tqJ.jpg (610.8 KB)
610.8 KB JPG
>>3934782
This is why I like Bug Fables, your numbers start low and they stay low, you need to git gud.
>>
>>
>>
>>
File: adachi-true.gif (263.6 KB)
263.6 KB GIF
>>3933171
Correct answer.
Difficulty in pure rpgs is generally a pointless discussion because it all really depends on player's will to engage with the systems and things like RNG rolls.
Playing an rpg is more like playing with a toy. The win condition is just having your brain engaged with hopefully enjoyable but not always difficult tasks. Be it squeezing better numbers from your build, figuring out how to tackle another part of the game (new dungeon, boss etc) or just grinding.
Kind of related - the cinematization of jrpgs is exactly what makes them unbearably boring. Cutscenes stop player from actually engaging with the systems, which are the meat and the actual game.
>>
>>3932803
A lot of people have this complaint and it's so weird because after you clear the pyramid and get access to the merged world, everything is completely optional. You could just go right to the final dungeon from there.
>>
>>
>>
>>3933013
>and then you same retards complain that in FF7 every character can do everything.
Complaining about being unable to change the composition of the characters in one's party is not at all the same thing as complaining about being able to change the "job" of one's characters, retard-kun.
>>
>>3935576
>"HURRRR, THE ONLY WAY TO PLAY FF8 IS TO DRAW A BAJILLION SPELLS EVERY BATTLE!"
>"HURRRR, THE ONLY WAY TO PLAY FF8 IS TO NEVER BATTLE AND ONLY PLAY CARDS TO REFINE SPELLS!"
It's really weird to me that nobody ever talks about the real best way to play FF8, which is to just fight encounters normally and get spells by refining drops and steals. It's super obvious to me, because I actually like turn-based JRPGs and tend to engage and expiriment with mechanics, but I feel like a majority of folks shut their brains of years ago and just can't seem to jumpstart them.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3932844
6 has detailed equipment information in the item menu and not the equipment one. Who can use it, elements, statuses, which weapon abilities it can be used with, complete stat bonuses. It's one of those things you'd have to know about to even realize it, like being able to give Gogo any of the other command abilities.
12 holds up best because you can skip all the story shit.
>>
>>3937960
>and trigger the level scaling? fuck that
I know this is retard-bait, but the whole point is that if you actually make use of the drops and steals and refine them instead of letting them rot in your inventory, you'll be so strong you won't have to care about the level scaling.
In fact, before you even leave the Balamb area, you can easily get fish fins from any beach (which refine into waters) and tents from the store (which refine into curagas). Those two assets alone will make you so strong you won't have to worry about enemies outscaling you until at least the end of disc 2, likely well into disc 3.
>>
>>3937955
I'm not saying FF8 isn't badly designed. I'm just shocked that the two prevailing sentiments on how to play the game are either "I'm a retard who has to draw 100 of everything" and "I'm a retard who needs to avoid all battles and have a card game FAQ open at all times". Especially when there's a much easier middle-ground between the two that only requires the tiniest bit of curiosity and willingness to engage with known mechanics. Yes. I agree it's a shame the game doesn't just tell the player about refining during any of the tutorials, but given that most people seem to have the attention span of a mayfly, I doubt even that would have helped.
Although, to be perfectly honest, I think the game was purposefully deceptive about the best ways to acquire spells, because FF8 as a whole is an incomplete game that is absolutely desperate to artificially inflate its playtime. They figured if a bunch of retards fall for wasting their lives choosing "draw" for hours on end, it might help trick them into thinking they're playing a game that isn't sorely lacking in depth and content.
>>
>>
File: ff4fe-equip-menu.png (111.9 KB)
111.9 KB PNG
>>3933502
>FF4 does not have any meaningful gameplay
FF4 has some of the best gameplay in the whole series.
>>3937969
Yes, FF5 and FF6 have lots of information easily accessible, even if lots of people don't know how to pull up stats from the item menu in FF6.
But FF4 doesn't. The equipment screen itself is not that useful, showing only your total attack, defense and magic defense. These numbers are vaguely useful especially in the early game, but many key values (attack multiplier, to-hit, and evasion rates) are only visible from the status screen. And, there's no indication whatsoever about status and elemental resistances. You had to read the manual to see the full stats of equipment.
Picrel is a modded version of the original FF4, for the Free Enterprise randomizer, which includes the details directly on the equip screen.
Some argue that keeping details like this hidden is more realistic and leads to better atmosphere and gamefeel, but I think the tradeoffs in not knowing what shit does aren't worth it.
On a related note, FF4 also doesn't have very good "missed spell" feedback in battles.
>>
>>3937955
When you play FF6, do you stop to grind and learn every spell for every character every time you get a new Esper? In FF9, do you stop and grind to learn new abilities every time you get a new piece of equipment for everyone? Same with Materias in 7, skills in 5, etc
After all, in both cases, just like drawing, each individual task only takes so long right?
I don't know what it is about FF8 that triggers such autism, and people make it sound like it's somehow different than in the other games when it's really not.
>>
>>
File: 2026-02-28_17-48-22.jpg (371.3 KB)
371.3 KB JPG
>>3932790
I thought the evil doppleganger fight was cool.
>>
>>3937976
I think one of the big differences between item/equipment info in 4 vs 5 is that while 4 shows less, it also has much less to show, overall. 5 was really the first game in the series where equipment started to get interesting. There are a lot of weapons, armor, and accessories with secondary effects that are super helpful, but you might never know about them, and given the level of customization in 5, it's kind of a shame.
In FF4, most armor is just bigger numbers, and the game and progression are so linear, you generally do the best by just using the latest stuff you've picked up. The only part of the game where you really NEED to think about your equipment is the magnetic cave.
>>
>>
>>
>>3938005
>secondary effects that are super helpful
That's a pretty big understatement. Raw stats are largely irrelevant in 5 compared to those secondary effects. The only notable exceptions are the bone mail and chicken knife/brave blade which all have such ridiculous numbers they have to come with significant drawbacks.
>>
>>
>>
>>3938005
This is just wrong.
FF4 has much bigger stat swings on equipment than FF5. It's clear that equipment was meant to allow some build flexibility (to an extent) where FF5 did it more with the job system. Heroine/Minerva armor, for example, gives a huge boost to str/agi/con while severely penalizing magic stats.
FF4 also has weapons that cast spells. Kain for example only has Fight/Jump/Item but has spears can be used to cast fire2, ice2 and holy.
>>
>>
>>
File: FinalFantasyTacticsAdvanceGBACoverArtUS.jpg (50.3 KB)
50.3 KB JPG
>Game with the main commentary of the plot being about "escapism is lee bad"
>Is that god damn awful that you literally feel like doing anything else but keep wasting time by escaping from the real world by playing it
Fucking bravo!
No, but seriously, i'm at the part of the game after you break the fourth crystal and there's like 3 mandatory laws, with few of the new ones just punish you outright for attacking enemies.(the one who target only specific race isn't that bad, but then there's the other one that just makes you unable to fight monsters as a whole.) Not to mention that with 3 laws you already can rolled some insane ass combinations that completely making the fight unplayable. What are they fucking thinking.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3938536
>>3938552
Card grinding is a bore, abusing the law rng for every fight by avoiding/fleeing is also pretty annoying. And only way of winning the monster fight with "DMG2Animal" law active is trough monotonously letting enemies to kill themselves against you via usage of "counterattack" ability. The game forcing you to play specific way is also garbage idea, because, why even letting player to have all those job choices in the first place?
But outside of laws, i would say that almost every single mechanic deviation from original FFT only make the game worse.
>>
>>3938553
Are you using the R(number) generic cards? Those need to be the right rank to work on specific laws.
>>3938560
I mean, I don't see the law system so critically, but I think the difference is that I don't mind changing the laws and using the cards and don't see them as a chore. I just see that stuff as a tool to be used. I do agree that three laws at a time is too much, but I don't find that detrimental in the end.
>The game forcing you to play specific way is also garbage idea, because, why even letting player to have all those job choices in the first place?
Same here, I just have a varied clan members so if a law makes someone useless for a fight, I take someone else with me.
>i would say that almost every single mechanic deviation from original FFT only make the game worse
I see them as sideways changes at worst. But I also don't have the same reverence for FFT as most people, so I am not that bothered by them changing things up.
>>
>>
>>3938569
When you check a law, it says what R(number) law it is. So when you see that R thing both on the law and the cards, you can see the correlation. It could be even more clear though. I guess all I can say is that pressing select on everything is your friend.
>>
>>
>>
File: snes_final_fantasy_2_p_xfzkj6.jpg (217.6 KB)
217.6 KB JPG
>>3938854
>>3938854
I like to call FFIV and FFVI, by their American names, FFII and FFIII. Then I like to pretend that the Japanese final fantasies never existed, and we simply jumped to 7. I do this because the Japanese final fantasies sucked and were not translated for good reason. Also, I live in America, and I refuse to be a weeb.
>>
>>3938883
Bait used to be believeable.
But let me about about my schizo conspiracy theory regarding why FF2 and 3 didn't release on NES: FF2's translation was 90% complete, we know this from the leaked version. Squaresoft had already announced its intention to release it to press and claimed they'd do FF3 next. That was in late 90/ early 91, they would have had time to release 2 on NES and still release 4 in late 91 without both titles competing with each others.
What I think happened is that Nintendo of US prevented or stalled the certification process because they were pissed at Squaresoft for going on their own (previoulsy, FF1, 3D World Runner and Rad Racer were all published by Nintendo and all sold really well) and saw them as serious competition that could danger their market leader position on game sales on their own machine.
They didn't prevent Square to release stuff on GB and SNES because for those platforms they needed all the help they could get to garner a user base, especially in the case of the SNES which they witnessed having a VERY slow start with very little third party support during its first year in Japan.
>>
File: fft-weapon-formulas.png (50.4 KB)
50.4 KB PNG
>>3938568
>I see them as sideways changes at worst.
I agree with the other anon and it has nothing to do with 'reverence' and everything to do with absolute preference for objective differences.
1. I like when weapons have unique scaling formulas, the way they do in FFT.
2. I think job systems work best with maximum flexibility and dislike having arbitrary race-based constraints.
3. I usually prefer human-oriented fantasy settings and don't need a bunch of goofy fantasy races.
4. I prefer RPGs that don't have a kiddie vibe. inb4 kneejerks: no, the fact that there's an edgy twist in FFTA doesn't give the game a mature vibe as a whole. No, I don't need an RPG to be super dark and mature, but FFTA is cartoony, childish and patronizing and this bleeds directly into core game elements like clans, laws and judges. All else being equal, I'll take an FFT vibe every single time over an FFTA.
>>
File: images (6).jpg (37.6 KB)
37.6 KB JPG
>>3938894
So it's just coincidence that FF2j, FF3j and FFVj suck. That's comforting.
>>
>>
>>3938883
>I like to call FFIV and FFVI, by their American names, FFII and FFIII.
There used to be a particular strain of console peasant in the early days of the internet who would do this, but even in those days they had the sense to say FF4J and FF6J to facilitate communication.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3938502
laws are good for the game and add to replayability :^) What I dislike about FFTA besides too many overpowered abilities making the game rather shallow is that the landmake system makes me glued to a guide when playing the game. One of my favorite FF OSTs its so high energy and peppy, nice happy war music, and I also like the gran grimore romhack
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3938894
>What I think happened is that Nintendo of US prevented or stalled the certification process because they were pissed at Squaresoft for going on their own
Personally, I think a part of the issue is that FF2 has several character deaths and the party going to actual Hell for the final dungeon. The script also needed at least another editing pass considering how clunky it is and considering how close the SNES/4 was, they probably just decided to go with the more "current" game.
>>
>>3937941
Apparently that's just a common complaint.
>World of Ruin in FF6
>Inverse Castle in SotN
>all the content in BG3's last act
People just can't control themselves or prioritize anything or think about what they want. Any time I get a chance to talk in depth with these people they're incredibly emotional about FOMO or not being spoiled on basic info from patch notes or some other autistic thing.
>>
>>3932790
>Post your spicy JRPG takes
I have a few:
>V isn't good and its job system is vastly overrated
>VI is one of the weakest FF games and doesn't do anything particularly well at all, and it doesn't even have memorable music outside of 2 or 3 tracks, it's easily the most overrated FF game by far
>FF Tactics is also extremely overrated
>II is over hated
>I like FF more than DQ, but outside of FF and Chrono Trigger, I think Enix was responsible for much better games than Squaresoft was
>Dragon Quarter is the best Breath of Fire game in [current year], III and IV feel extremely slow and outdated nowadays and the puzzles in IV especially are so fucking annoying
>random encounters have always been cancer, and it blows my mind that the Chrono Trigger way of doing them only just recently became standardized ~20 years later
>>3932806
>I'm curious how 8 will feel to me since I haven't played it since release.
Triple Triad still sucks and Drawing still sucks and the story still doesn't make any fucking sense, but the dialogue is a lot smarter and wittier and "cool" than I remembered.
>>
>>3932796
If they gave you more of the good jobs, without advancing the story, then the jobs system would be better. Too bad that you get most of the jobs from advancing the story, forcing you to rush through a big chunk of the game, to actually have the freedom to build your characters.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
File: IMG_6460.jpg (85.9 KB)
85.9 KB JPG
>>3932790
Not a spicy-take but I will post something thats a spicy-take to the typical ff5 degenerate.
>FF Dimensions
>Bravely Default
>Bravely Second
>Bravely Default 2
>Octopath Traveler
>Octopath Traveler 2
Are all better job FFs than FF5. Especially Bravely Second, which has nothing short that the second best designed job in any FF game, the Wizard.
>>
>>
>>
>>3946244
They should have an impact on bosses, yes. I'm not sure whether it should always be as much as it has on the player. This may vary depending on the scope of the fight and the challenge the game looks to present. Being able to hinder or hamper the boss with status ailments but not totally dominate them sounds like a nice balance. That or the boss has myriad avenues through which to mitigate and diminish the ailments cast upon it, or even ways to negate them entirely when close to being defeated. This would keep things engaging throughout, stopping the battle from ever feeling bland.
>>
>>3950209
In FFIX, you could throw a tent on one of the early bosses to inflict various status effects on it, including blind, totally trivilizing the fight. Players usually have ways to heal status effects, enemies don't. On the other hand, turning all these skills that can put status effects on enemies pretty much useless is also a bad solution.
>>
>>
>>3950898
>Octoslop just reeks of mediocrity with how simplified and barebones the job system is
It's deeper and more elaborated than either of those games purely because Octopath classes aren't just slightly repurposed DPS/Healer/Support archetypes, Octopath classes exist outside of those mediocre fights unlike all those other games, they have skills that can be used to interact with the world in various ways whereas the only example you can find of that in those games is FFV geomancers being able to walk on lava tiles without taking damage.
It's not really deep because it's still a very casual game but it's certainly much deeper than any of those games which are even more casual, having huge class and skill bloat=/=depth.
>>
>>3946703
I'd call this bait, but it's really just midwittery at its finest. The popular opinion is that ALL of these games "improved" on FF5's job system just because it heaped more shit on top of it, but generally speaking, they're all worse.
Bravely Default, in particular, fucked up by making every job have 14 levels, which results in too many highly-sitiuational/borderline useless abilities. They also blundered one of the best aspects of the job system, which is that switching any character to a magic class no longer allows them to use all of their spells. In FFV, even a level 1 black mage could cast Flare if you had the spell in your posession, which made the system incredibly flexible. In most other perversions, you'd need to grind the black mage up, which is a total waste of time, especially if you just needed to tweak your party composition for a single battle.
Almost every game that attempted to "improve" on FF5's job system did so by saying, "Hm, we really need this to be more useless and time-consuming."
>>
>>3950900
>they have skills that can be used to interact with the world in various ways
Are you seriously trying to pass off the path interaction system as anything good? It's essentially just decompressing the simple act of talking to NPCs to get quests. In turns the simple act of exploring towns into a tedious grind.
And the funniest part is that for every scenario where one of these "path actions" is actually required to progress the plot, you're given precisely ZERO agency in figuring it out. You get to a town, suffer through 10 minutes of pointless, redundant dialogue, then, even if you have objective markers and the minimap off, the character you need to hunt down to use your ability on STILL has a huge, colored indicator over their heads. To add insult to injury, you don't even get to pick which path action to use. The game just automatically uses it in a cutscene as soon as you talk to the person. So what's the fucking point?
I'll take no path actions over this insulting, hand-holding, time-wasting bullshit any day.
>>
>>3950971
>Are you seriously trying to pass off the path interaction system as anything good?
Good? No, it's passable at best and more importantly, better than the absolute nothing those other games offer.
>It's essentially just decompressing the simple act of talking to NPCs to get quests
No it isn't, stealing/mugging any NPC has nothing to do with initiating questlines even if some of those NPCs might be tied to some quests, hiring or dueling NPCs is the same, they're simple interactions with the game world which as flawed and low effort as they admittedly offer something that other games don't even try to give people.
>for every scenario where one of these "path actions" is actually required to progress the plot, you're given precisely ZERO agency in figuring it out.
And those other games are different...how?
There's nothing to figure out in Bravely or FF5 either, these games are all made for the same exact audience, Octopath just raised the bar a tiny bit by actually adding something of value to a shallow and frankly tired formula that was never good to begin with.
Could it have been better than what it ended up being? Yeah, absolutely, but it's still more than what those other games have and the fact that you're seriously advocating for having less, while calling it "insulting, hand-holding, time-wasting bullshit" and simultaneously propping up FFV is beyond sad.
>>
>>3950549
Enemies should be able to be susceptible to them but they should either not land often, so it would be difficult to actually get them afflicted, but effective, AND/OR the status ailments should be less than 100% effective. So with poison it wouldn't be so strong it would kill the boss easily, you still have to fight it, but it would help. Paralysis or something would have the enemy missing maybe 1/5 of its turns or 1/8 where with the player it might make you miss 1/3 to 1/4. Bosses would still be able to get impacted but less so. Then as I said they would - likely towards the end of a fight to give you one last obstacle to overcome, and a little difficulty spike before victory - be able to finally heal themselves from certain ailments with a higher probability.
They wouldn't 100% heal from them (unless you wanted some superboss that cancels all ailments and debuffs, which we see a lot of today) but they would have a high chance to cast off your spells to fuck you over one final time.
>>
>>
>>3950965
>They also blundered one of the best aspects of the job system, which is that switching any character to a magic class no longer allows them to use all of their spells.
>In FFV, even a level 1 black mage could cast Flare if you had the spell in your posession, which made the system incredibly flexible
This is subjective and just your personal bias showing. It is also highly unrealistic. Why would someone who just became a mage suddenly can cast a high level spell so easily? Maybe just your boomer-ass mind accustomed to FFV and you cannot see that it's not the only way to do job classes.
Overall, such a specific critique of the Bravely job system.
>>3950978
>better than the absolute nothing those other games offer
At the minimum, it's "more filler content". Not better quality at least.
>Octopath just raised the bar a tiny bit by actually adding something of value to a shallow and frankly tired formula that was never good to begin with.
Nothing of value was added.. Besides, if it was never good to begin with as you said, why would Octopath have been inspired by it?
The reason your favorite game keeps getting slandered here is because you fanboys/shills keep trying to prop it as a 9-10 masterpiece, which is a big of a stretch. Even FFV fans know their game's flaws to not claim it as a 10/10.
>>
>>
>>3950987
>>3950987
>Not better quality at least.
Better than any of those other games mentioned before, admittedly it's not a particularly high bar to reach, especially if FFV is supposedly the bar for anything but mediocrity.
>Besides, if it was never good to begin with as you said, why would Octopath have been inspired by it?
Truth to be told Octopath is trying to ape Romancing SaGa rather than FFV, the first game in particular was extremely shameless about it, the reason why Path actions even exist was to emulate how SaGa games are built but simplify it massively for the casual audience.
The job system is merely a remnant of what that hack Asano did with his previous games like Bravely, and also because trying to clone SaGa in anything regarding combat is both beyond his means and troublesome when it comes to internal policies for the company, never mind the audience itself.
>The reason your favorite game
Favorite game? I don't care about any of these mediocre games, I'm just setting the records straight because you midwits love to steal oxygen from people who deserve it more than you do.
Where exactly did I say Octopath is my favorite game let alone a 9-10 masterpiece, fucking retard?
>>
>>
>>3951009
Maybe you just have attention problems
Do you read books much? And like actual books not stuff on your phone or anything for school/work.
>>3946244
You say evenly, but then every boss would have to have a White Mage with it, and a close to infinite supply of 1 action status cleanses (i.e. items). Players innately have a huge advantage in terms of status effects, even ignoring just their ability to be more tactical about them - having a party and often a dedicated support unit within that party makes them more advantaged usually
>>
>>3950995
>Truth to be told Octopath is trying to ape Romancing SaGa rather than FFV
>The job system is merely a remnant of what that hack Asano did with his previous games like Bravely
Yes and we are STILL talking about the job system. Your schizo ramblings about SaGa is nowhere related nor it mattered here.
>Where exactly did I say Octopath is my favorite game let alone a 9-10 masterpiece, fucking retard?
You sound overly butthurt and defensive over criticisms for some mediocre game that is not your favorite. Maybe you are just a deeply closeted Octoslop fan who hasn't realized it yet.
>>
>>3951047
>Yes and we are STILL talking about the job system
Yes, and you tried to come up with yet another pointless implication to justify your nonsense, which is why I had to expose your bullshit once again by pointing out what the game was actuallly trying to rip off in the first place and why it settled on having a job system, unfortunately you're a raging retard with ADHD who can't stop defending mediocre games on very flimsy grounds so you keep trying to change the subject and disregard whatever proof exposes you as a total midwit.
>You sound overly butthurt and defensive over criticisms for some mediocre game that is not your favorite.
Truth to be told the one who had a bitchfit was you, and not satisfied with that you started an entire unhinged rambling and tried to put words in my mouth multiple times as to try and justify your deranged hatred for a mediocre game I explictly said I have zero attachment to.
Nowhere did I prop up Octopath as anything more than passable, but since "people" like you love to project your own insecurities on others you promptly kept having hysterical meltdowns and tried to hide how you're the one who's incredibly butthurt and defensive over a mediocre game that is very much your favorite.
You don't get to bully your way out of this, using /v/ buzzwords on top of everything else doesn't make you look like anything other than a fucking retard.
>>
>>
>>3951042
Or 99% of jrpgs are simply too long with extremely obvious parts of a story that could have been cut with ease. Sorry you don't understand the concept of decent pacing so 20+ hours of filler bullshit doesn't faze you. I finished persona 4 twice, I can handle a long ass game just fine.
I still don't genuinely believe you if you never once thought "man when can this start wrapping up?"
>>
>>
File: 1dc359483b7c3424229921c8f3df7d96.jpg (49.5 KB)
49.5 KB JPG
>>3932790
Combat in JRPGs sucks fucking dick
t. F1/2 and TOE enjoyer
>>
>>
>>3951051
>unfortunately you're a raging retard with ADHD who can't stop defending mediocre games on very flimsy grounds so you keep trying to change the subject and disregard whatever proof exposes you as a total midwit.
You're the one bringing up unrelated talking points, yet you call me an ADHD for asking you to stick to the topic?
>Nowhere did I prop up Octopath as anything more than passable
This comes from someone who says everything it did was better than FFV. No actual argument, just subjective and baseless arguments like "it is better", "it raised the bar"
Maybe have some self-reflection before you get triggered.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3945791
While I agree that getting more freedom from the start is ideal, at least FFV is nice enough to give you everything (barring Mime and the GBA jobs) by the end of the first third of the story. I think of games like Bravely Default where you're at 75% through the game, about to start looping, and only now do the last asterisks become unlockable. Shit drives me up a wall everytime. Same thing happens in FF Dimensions with the jobs split between two different parties.
>>
>>3950978
This is why Zelda is easily better than 99% of RPGs, you actually have naturally extensive interaction options that let you actually do shit. RPGs generally suck at exactly the kinds of things they should be good at.
>>
>>3951077
>>3951247
People who are into this genre tend to feel that a game being more longerer makes it more epicer. They play RPGs precisely because being filled with tedious bullshit gives them the impression that they are on a more serious journey and actively want their time to be wasted because their brains work in this weird way where just committing time to something makes it feel more substantial to them no matter how insubstantial what they are doing is.
>>
>>3951216
None of that is unrelated, you claimed Octopath was copying FFV, I proved you wrong by pointing out which game they actually tried to rip off to which you tried to immediately rebuke by saying it's an "unrelated talking point", stop trying to weasel out of the arguments you yourself tried to get into you stupid fuck.
>No actual argument
I already made my arguments, but since you have the mental prowess of an acorn and the attention span of a doorknob I'll reiterate them for you one last time:
It raised the bar a little bit because:
a) It didn't bloat its (shallow) systems the way FFV or other games like Bravely did.
b) It added a bit of much needed depth to its class system by giving classes a little something to do outside of (the usual braindead) combat.
To which you tried to sweep everything under the rug with some nonsense about "decompressing the simple act of talking to NPCs to get quests" which has nothing to do with those things.
And if you want me to add something I did not mention before, I'd also say that giving players some degree of nonlinearity in terms of progress also makes it inherently superior to FFV for obvious reasons which I'm sure you'll try to force me to explain because you're too fucking moronic and without standards to understand, like all faggots who suck off the dogshit series that is FF.
None of this is subjective either, the game objectively has more systems, objectively has more complexity and more thought put into it in every regard, as much as it's still admittedly very mediocre and poorly made.
And I'm sure you'll still try to deny this and reply with "muh filler" or something as if FFV isn't enormously guilty of being chock full of filler when half of the classes are completely worthless garbage that just reuses stuff from other classes with a slightly different gimmick and MAYBE one actually unique skill which is most likely trash.
I'd tell you to heed your own advice but you're clearly too hopeless to do even that.
>>
>>3951568
>you claimed Octopath was copying FFV
And you are the one chimping out from this point by saying Asano was inspired by Romancing Saga when the talking point was about the job system
>a) It didn't bloat its (shallow) systems the way FFV or other games like Bravely did.
How can you call FFV system is bloated in the first place? How is Bravely bloated? There is no reasoning in your posts.
>b) It added a bit of much needed depth to its class system by giving classes a little something to do outside of (the usual braindead) combat.
Something to do doesn't inherently mean better. Stop stating your personal bias as a fact.
>To which you tried to sweep everything under the rug with some nonsense about "decompressing the simple act of talking to NPCs to get quests" which has nothing to do with those things.
Path actions are literally just that. "Simple act of talking to NPCs to get quests". If you really love it, sure. But don't try to paint it as something as deep as Bethesda-style of conversations.
>I'd also say that giving players some degree of nonlinearity in terms of progress also makes it inherently superior to FFV for obvious reasons
You dare to call the previous post as bullying but you're the one who sounded like a bully with the way you're forcing your opinion to us. You need to prove your point, not make outrageous claims as "this is better because I said it so!"
>game objectively has more systems, more complexity and more thought put into it in every regard, as much as it's still admittedly very mediocre and poorly made
You still don't realize how you sound like, don't you. Like a blatant shill that keeps denying himself.
>And I'm sure you'll still try to deny this and reply with "muh filler" or something
Lol.
>I'd tell you to heed your own advice but you're clearly too hopeless to do even that.
Look into the mirror first.
>>
>>
File: 1764861648460555.png (3.5 MB)
3.5 MB PNG
>>3951587
>when the talking point was about the job system
No, your talking point was:
>>if it was never good to begin with as you said, why would Octopath have been inspired by it?
You claimed Octopath was inspired by the (supposedly good) job system in FFV when its actual inspiration was Romancing SaGa, which by the way DID use a swappable class system of its own too, and lo and behold it has more things in common with Octopath's job system than FFV does, mostly because again, MS classes are characterized by having non-combat related skills unlike FFV.
Never mind everything else, from the eight different main characters with their own storylines to the nonlinear progression of self contained stories that ultimately lead to a main big bad evil god being the primus motor, exactly like Romancing SaGa, or how there's a fucking explicit on-going partnership between the two franchises if you weren't fucking aware.
>How can you call FFV system is bloated in the first place? How is Bravely bloated?
How is it not bloated?
There's entire classes like chemist that do nothing but reuse tools from other classes but with different (irrelevant) resource costs, there's several different flavours of martials that are literally the same exact attack spam but with some minor gimmicks in the form of ONE passive (most of which are shit), there's ridiculous amounts of overlap in a system that has exactly zero use for any of that, the simple fact that black magic spells from the previous games got divided between Black Mages and Time Mages is already a red flag for bloat.
>Something to do doesn't inherently mean better.
Agreed, so why are you propping up FFV when most of its classes are worthless bloat while Octopath cuts that shit down and adds something of actual value? Oh wait, it's because you're a fucking bitch who gets overly defensive over some dogshit game and accuses other games of the very sins of your dear favourite, like all you FF niggers do even among yourselves.
>>
>>3951607
>Path actions are literally just that.
No they're fucking not.
Do you talk to fucking chests to unlock them and get some quests from them? Do you fucking get quests from the random monsters you tame while fighting?
Just because the main scenarios dare to actually use those mechanics for narrative purposes doesn't mean they exists purely for that, which by the way is still more than FFV ever did considering how in that game you have no reason to ever interact with any of its NPCs outside of a select couple of those that are forced on you in its many cutscenes like Cid.
You can take out all the non cutscene NPCs in FFV and not lose anything but you can't do that in Octopath because those NPCs actually have game functions behind them, like having items you can steal/mug off them, or being somebody your merchants can hire as bodyguards, or being somebody your warriors can duel and so on, all of this in a world you're not forced to explore linearly either, but according to you Octopath is the game with filler and bloat despite giving you way more reasons to bother with its world, class system and mechanics than FFV ever did with its own.
>You dare to call the previous post as bullying
Yes, and I'll keep saying it because that's what they are, midwit bullying from a deluded faggot with crippling nostalgia and brand loyalty.
And again you keep proving that, you keep parroting the same exact hypocritical nonarguments and lies while attacking me for standing up to your nonsense, calling me a fanboy for games I don't care about because I dare point out your massive hypocrisy and nonsense, you call me a shill for explaining in depth why one mediocre game is better off than your favorite mediocre game through OBJECTIVE facts while you shit your pants and try to weasel out of this through absurd reductionism, poor attempts at misdirection, namecalling and straight out falsehoods about a game you quite clearly did not play much of, if at all.
>>
>>3951607
>explanation of why Octopath didn't copy FFV
OK I can understand this. You could've provided more insight instead of being an arrogant PoS though.
>There's entire classes like chemist that do nothing but reuse tools from other classes but with different (irrelevant) resource costs
>there's several different flavours of martials that are literally the same exact attack spam but with some minor gimmicks in the form of ONE passive (most of which are shit), there's ridiculous amounts of overlap in a system that has exactly zero use for any of that, the simple fact that black magic spells from the previous games got divided between Black Mages and Time Mages is already a red flag for bloat.
This is novelty. You call it bloat, but each classes having different amount and variety of skillsets that can sometimes overlap with each other is a considerable design choice to make the whole thing thematically fitting. What about Octopath II which shoehorn you with giving elemental spells to each starting job classes (except warrior)? What about for some reason every classes need to have the same amount of skills? And if you are saying Bravely did this too, I never defended this point in the first place.
>Agreed, so why are you propping up FFV when most of its classes are worthless bloat while Octopath cuts that shit down and adds something of actual value?
Maybe it's worthless bloat to you, but making everything balanced is not always good to me.
Also I didn't say FFV as the perfect thing, but you are saying that it's like much better than FFV is what triggers me. Octopath job system is boring. And also, why does a sequel give you the exact same thing yet nobody question nor criticize a thing?
"Oh you don't need to fix what is not broken" Except the first game wasn't perfect in the first place, how can you people think these job classes don't have any room for improvement?
>>
>>3951608
>Octopath is the game with filler and bloat despite giving you way more reasons to bother with its world, class system and mechanics than FFV ever did with its own.
And the world never felt memorable, or integrated at all despite those mechanics. Seems wasted to me. I have no problem with the way they tried to make the world fleshed out, but the execution is really so-so. IMO it hurts the quality of the writing overall, at least to me.
>absurd reductionism
If you don't want to get this treatment, don't be someone who make outrageous claims without backing it up first. Saying "x is better" but there is no reasoning to begin with, only when challenged until now.
>poor attempts at misdirection
>namecalling
>and straight out falsehoods about a game you quite clearly did not play much of, if at all.
Why the need to sound whiny and defensive if you know your point is provable? You are not doing your game justice, honestly.
>>
>someone actually said that the games that have spiritmaster, salve-maker and wizard are worse than ffv because you can use flare at level 1
What the hell?
>>3950965
>Bravely Default, in particular, fucked up by making every job have 14 levels, which results in too many highly-sitiuational/borderline useless abilities.
And what do you call FFV’s skill bloat. Where exactly do you call someone else a midwit with these retarded contradictory examples?
Why are you so retarded?
>>
>>
>>
>>3951628
I mean quite literally in all your posts you can’t provide any reason why octopath is worse aside from vague statements, for example
>too little skills
You’d have a point here if you could explain why this is bad or if the skills were mechanically uninteresting but you can’t even prove that. Meanwhile if we compare it to FFV that game doesn’t have skills that manipulate magic effects to be AOE, more resources that affect combat that isn’t just MP, mechanically speaking its pretty much just attack+heal with most of your skills being fluff, buffs/debuffs have more emphasis in octopath too and more importantly octopath doesn’t punish you for messing around with your build to try something new.
>>
>>3951631
>too little skills
No, what I am saying is "why every classes have the same amount of skills" with no variety whatsoever. Like where is the room for some jank / novelty, why make every class so uniformed like that in Octopath.
Bravely isn't exactly free of this problem either to be honest, but they at least diversified the job classes on each iteration.
And I also am asking why in OT2 did they slap elemental spells on every starting classes just to handhold the player, which thematically is a mess. Why those non-mage classes can cast spells with no proper lore explanation?
There is also much more status effects in FFV that you can play around with
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_V_statuses
>>
>>
>>3951638
Do you have any actual reason for any of this criticisms or just some stupid “lore” headcanon in your schizophrenic head? Preferably mechanical ones that actually affect how fun the game is.
>there are more status effects in ffv
Tell me how many status effects you use in a boss fight in that game? Or even just regular fights.
>>
>>
File: __faris_scherwiz_and_chemist_final_fantasy_and_1_more_drawn_by_saitou_piyoko__4122bfbf24da4a61479bbc974b00408a.jpg (108.1 KB)
108.1 KB JPG
>>3951607
>trying to drag FF5's job system by ripping on Chemist
>literally the single most unique, powerful, and adaptable class in the game
This proves you're either a troll or just a monumental dolt. Nobody should bother engaging with you or your embarrassing text walls.
>>
Ff5 is just kinda lame and not because of its job system. Wtf are we even talking about. Ff5 jobs is like it's one real saving grace.
The boring part is that despite you fags saying it's gameplay only, it's not. It has constant cutscenes and the game stops here for character growth moments in it. But it's such boring shit to read we just pretend thats not the case or something?
>>
>>3951716
I don't think he has even played FF5 because Chemist can do so much shit that it breaks the game in half and some of the shit is so overpowered that it hasn't been reintroduced in future FF games that feature Chemists.
Chemists in 5 allow you to double Max HP of allies, adjust the levels of enemies, apply multiple buffs/debuffs at once, instantly kill a target, among other things
>>
>>3952032
>>3951716
Nta but who cares. Oh wow this walkthrough autism job is actually le hecking overpowered if you do 10x the work than just get 3 damage dealers and 1 healer. It's final fantasy lmao
We both know you guys only messed around with chemist after looking up walkthroughs if you ever did that. Both posts read like the typical I'm going to defend how epic ffv job system is with lame busy work jobs made to sell guides.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3952086
Chemist is not even half as interesting as salve maker anyway these faggots glaze the job system in 5 so much that it annoys the shit out of me. Wizard is in a shit game and that shit game is better than ff5 just because of how amazing wizard is.
These faggots haven’t played any job system game besides 5 and one of the easiest ways I can tell is when they oversell 5s chemist or 5s blue mage, the latter which has much better version of it in a game they will never fucking play because they literally will hate anything on principle.
Even BD2’s salve maker is better than chemist.
There isn’t a single mage job in 5 that compares to the mage jobs in dimensions or the bravely games or even the octopath games.
Its honestly such an eyesore to read this stupid bullshit.
>>
>>
>>
>>3953367
>wizard
>spellcraft lets you change any spell even things like astrologian buffs or cures in a myriad of different ways with different effects and applications
There is nothing like this in your game stop pretending every entry after it wasn’t an improvement over the last over some retarded bullshit like the “story”
>>
>>3953441
>There isn’t a single mage job in 5 that compares to the mage jobs in dimensions or the bravely games or even the octopath games.
>Compares in what respect?
>spellcraft lets you change any spell even things like astrologian buffs or cures in a myriad of different ways with different effects and applications
Are you trying to say spell customization?
As in, there isn't single mage job in ff5 that has spell customization like they do in Dimensions, Bravely or Octopath?
>>
>>
>>3953447
nta, but Spellcraft is the name of bravely second's wizard's command. It lets you modify most spells you know by spending additional mp. Things like making a spell always go 1st in a round of combat, making it deal physical damage instead of magic, making it aoe, making it hit multiple times, turning it into a counterattack, etc.
>>
>>
File: Rydia (Child) - Status.gif (1.7 KB)
1.7 KB GIF
>>3932790
Job system is fundamentally grind.
I still think II / 4 is the best game as far as pacing. III / 6 was fantastic at first but the world of ruin turns into a massive grind with the magicite system.
>>3932796
FFII/4 has Rydia
>>3932848
Why is that a flaw? The game is well designed and gives you good challenges for your party as it changes. The main flaw with FFII/4, especially on the SNES, is you can run from basically everything if you don't feel like fighting, and while that will punish you in boss fights you can't run from, it isn't insurmountable.
>>3933449
Yeah FF2 is neat once I played it
>>3938883
I still do it, because the SNES cartridge releases were what I first played. I didn't get to play 5 until roms.
>>3938989
2j is great, 3j is solid for a job system, and 5 is great in general.
>>
>>3953493
>Why is that a flaw? The game is well designed and gives you good challenges for your party as it changes.
I dislike being unable to play around with different party compositions. My first preference would be a completely custom party (really only an option in 1), second preference would be fixed classes but control of party composition, third preference would be a job system or similar.
>>
File: dATzhkTHmmasuBAO3W1mIZRGN2OqyJSC_png.png (1.3 MB)
1.3 MB PNG
Type-0 sucks, and anyone who praises it as an underrated masterpiece is a retard.
>>
>>
File: 1211946536295.gif (42.9 KB)
42.9 KB GIF
>>3953524
You need to grind if you want to experiment with the different job combinations, which is the appeal of the system. Yes, once you know the best combinations and don't have to do a bunch of extra jobs you don't need to grind but then you aren't even using the system to it's extent, just whatever is the meta for your combination (that is learned through tons and tons of grinding).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3953547
You get more than enough AP to master some jobs and try out a decent variety of them in one playthrough, but not to master and experiment with everything. The game does start throwing out lots of AP in the third world though.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3953528
>You need to grind if you want to experiment with the different job combinations, which is the appeal of the system.
No you don't.
You can't access every single ability without grinding, but you can still experiment.
Like, I wanna experiment with monk and white mage, I will level those while I play for a while.
>>
>>
>>
>>3933171
>arcade style games, character action games, shmups, racers, fighters
>beat em ups, etc.
>just pressing the right buttons at the right time
Literally just DDR.
>puzzle games
Either they're piss easy or are just a matter of knowledge. No skill required.
>>
>>3953286
Idk why people are pretending they actually used chemist when it's an inherit guide job same as blu, you did not first playthough discover what it could do.
Alright nigga read this shit >>3952032
Who are you fooling except yourself? You did minor spell damage and swap from it like everyone else. It's ffv just pressing auto attack, or aoe magic will insta clear the game
>>
>>3954411
>Inb4 blu like 24?
No nigga 11 my 2nd favorite ff game which has overall better more useful and interesting jobs than 5. Least in that game their was actual reason to use other things than standard auto attacks
>>
>>3952090
>world of ruin arena reeks of guide selling bullshit
It's hilarious how people accuse every game of being "guide bait" just because they can't wrap their minds around the concept of keeping different saves, exploring, and expirimenting.
>>
>>3954416
Just the arena, which it clearly was designed for a guide on standby. It was fights that were only really won one way with extremely specific one time use items to barter to begin with.
Square loved selling guide back then, have we forgotten that they tried to stick half of ff9 guide to a subscription service already?
>>
>>3954411
What are you talking about? You’re just agreeing with what I said so why tell me to read a post thats just glazing 5 for no good reason?
People that glaze 5 never
>played ffxi blue mage, Dancer or scholar
>never tried experimenting BS wizard, guardian or exorcist
>never tried experimenting with BD salve-maker or Spiritmaster
Like every single square job game except maybe fft, ff3 and 4 heroes of light has a MUCH MORE interesting job system than 5, even shit like ffta and ffta2. Its grating to see people glazing 5 for such hollow empty and completely biased reasons like this guy
>>3953481
Like this guy doesn’t play videogames period he is just a larping fucking normalfag
>>
>>3954464
I just don't like 5 that much. It's a pretty hollow and forgettable game that people suck off because it has 2 jobs with mediocre mechanics that can kinda do some CRRRaaazuy things that you only pretend to have found out by yourself. You were not 12 changing neos level than insta gibbing him with chemist. Who are you genuinely trying to fool?
I also don't like that people pretend that ff5 is a gameplay focused game. No, it actually has quite a lot of story that interrupts you constantly.
It's just really bad.
>>
>>
>>3954469
No you didn’t. You didn’t play FFXI
>but I did
You played post abyssea ffxi with trusts thats how you “played it” as dancer/red mage, ergo you did not play ffxi and never will
>>3954468
Are you even reading the post? Cause I am not glazing 5. 5 is a fine game but its fans are some of the most insufferable cunts in the entire internet, so much that games that are much much better get overshadowed by their completely baseless hate. Its normfalfaggotry at its finest, literally “youtuber told me its bad” tier.
>>
>>3954470
>You played post abyssea ffxi with trusts thats how you “played it” as dancer/red mage, ergo you did not play ffxi and never will
I played on a max 75 level old school private server without trusts actually.
>>
>>3954470
Im agreeing with you Anon, I'm not really engaging with the bravely default comment, because I never played it. I won't pretend I did, but I have played 5 and 11.
I don't like 5, and it's fans are obnoxious. 6 is obviously the superior game on the snes, and 11 does the job system far better pre and post level cap increase objectively(while also having a more better narrative)
>>
>>3954474
>dancer
>private server
So you played on catseye or wings, one server is broken while the other is full to the brim of “qol” which means you still didn’t play it.
Trust me I want a Wotg server badly but there is literally nothing /rdm gives to dancer at 75 cap so I highly doubt anyone tolerated that shit in a party.
>>
>>
>>
>>3954488
>shifted the goalpost
No not really. I simply proved exactly what you played and you are dodging every point made. Trust me, I wish you could have experienced the actual FFXI but its just too late for that.
You might get a Frankenstein version of it with Horizon or Phoenix though, assuming they ever get to wotg. That will be enough to at least give you some idea how it was like.
>>
People making fun of horizon for being custom using wings as a comparison is funny as fuck.
Their has never been a single authentic pserver, Eden and wings had their own balance patches and every pserver has a lot of broken content. It is what it is.
>>
>>
File: IMG_3285.jpg (1.4 MB)
1.4 MB JPG
>>3954488
I highly doubt you suppoted any party on catseye with dancer/rdm, the kind where you actually feel the stress of being the main healer. Especially with a sub job that isn’t helping you at all and thats even assuming you got a full party on catseye ever, which i also sincerely doubt when pic related is split across 3 different modes and most are playing the mode with trusts. If you did a party with someone using trusts then you still used trusts.
I believe you appreciate what dancers skillset was in ffxi but I doubt you actually got to seriously play it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3954577
>be wrong
>say wrong thing
>continuously attempt to justify or explain around your wrong statement so you don’t look like an idiot
>look like an idiot anyway
4chan is full of retards but its blatantly obvious when one of them is a reddit tard
>>
>>
>>
>>3954658
I am not gonna entertain dishonest arguments. Go to reddit if you want to say retarded shit like this see how far it gets you when you’re not anonymous and have to be held accountable for all the retarded shit that comes out of your baboon mouth.
>>3954655
Thats quite literally a (you) problem. Go play wow or ffxiv they are tailor made for antisocial freaks like you. They are also the mmo equivalent of attack and heal the game so you won’t be shunned
>>
>>
>>
>>3954672
the thing about the messy BD loops is that people don't say is that:
1. You have the airship at the start of a loop
2. You have the full party at the start of a loop
3. You can jump straight to the crystals
So the "loops suck" bit is like... an hour at most for all of the loops
>>
>>
>>
>>3954679
He is never gonna answer you honestly. There is no point in trying to convince a moron.
>>3954690
You can’t get the proper job experience without the multiplayer part. Last I checked we were talking about job-based games. But I don’t think you’re interested in debating honestly considering you’ve been wrong about everything you’ve said up to this point.
>>
>>3955014
>But I don’t think you’re interested in debating honestly considering you’ve been wrong about everything you’ve said up to this point.
I think you're arguing with the wrong person, as well as maybe you need to touch grass and go outside for a bit. Not everyone is out here to scrutinize or debate with you.
>>
>>3955026
>don’t even know what the conversation is about
>butt in on the middle because someone posted something that activated the rage part of your neurons
>get burned
>throw a passive aggressive comment about touching grass
Maybe don’t get into conversations if you have no clue about them. From my side it looks like you’re the one getting mad over nothing after throwing inflammatory remarks to the first person you disagree with.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3955034
Disagreeing without posting any sort of valid argument or respecting other peoples opinions compared to your own is very much so dishonesty. Thats why you and this faggot
>>3955041
Cannot say anything that isn’t just an ad hominem or vague hating on some game you don’t like on principle.
You deserve to be disregarded as discord raiders but some people still give you the respect you don’t deserve and reply seriously to which you respond with nothing constructive, like this:
>>3954672
Not only shit like this but you’re not even pointing out what you “disagree” with.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
I think people who are obsessed with the job systems in the few FF games that have it are retarded. They usually say the other FFs suck if they don't have a job system. They masquerade as FF fans, but really they're just obsessed with a feature that honestly is extremely overrated that only like half the FF games even have.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3932790
Working Designs was more good than bad, including their gameplay changes. Though it varied, some games like Exile 2 they admittedly fucked up rebalancing. The increased enemy stats worked out fine in the Lunar games and Alundra.
>>
File: 1758577471125398.png (286.5 KB)
286.5 KB PNG
>>3932790
Tactics remake>tactics> 7>6>9>3>5>rebirth>16>remake>15>12>X-2>1>2>10>FFT GBA>8>4>Origins>FFT DS>13
Also FE16 trumps them all
>>
>>3933647
>Remember, that game is EXTREMELY unfinished, unlike say 6.
I would consider VI "unfinished" simply because the game was unable to realize the scope that it wanted to have, possibly due to technical limitations, possibly due to an overbloat of characters. I think that it desperately needs a remake (similar to IV 3D's remake) in order for VI to actually be the game that people think that it is.
>>
>>
Final Fantasy XIII has one of the best combat systems in the series. Lack of towns/side content is a big problem, but from another angle it's an interesting and memorable experience to literally travel down endless hallways.
Earthbound combat is better than most Dragon Quest games' combat.
Persona 5 Royal is the worst Persona game not counting spinoffs. Literally the definition of "watered down normie slop" right next to Elden Ring. The music is the ONLY thing it got right. The combat is a literal spit in the face, baton pass is embarrassing.
Final Fantasy IX was a lot cooler 10 years ago. Games actually do age, and if you think otherwise then you're not changing and growing as a person. Culture did not arbitrary peak when you were young.
Most RPG fans only enjoy "number go up". They're not here for interesting or engaging combat, or memorable experiences, they're here because they want to mentally check out for 6+ hours at a time without doing drugs. If this were not the case, Megaten would be far more popular.
Xenogears is an overrated game for trannies.
Mother 3 is a HUGE step down from 2. Much worse than Mother 1.
Pokemon is for kids. Grow up.
Final Fantasy VII has some of the best writing, not only in JRPGs, but in games as a whole. The quality of character writing is on par with a great novel or film and it says a lot about gamers that they still complain about it because of "plot holes". And the original translation is fine.
If you don't play RPG maker games sorry but you're a casual.
Dragon Quest minigames suck ass. I don't care if they're "iconic", they're pure luck and gay.
SMT III soundtrack > SMT IV soundtrack
The single biggest determining factor to the combat quality of an RPG is how it implements mana restoration. You should never have to leave a dungeon just because you're out of mana. You also shouldn't fill dungeons with lots of save points or healing ponds. Give the player ways to restore their mana in the dungeon, but make it difficult to do so.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3961763
I played IX, VIII and VII (in that order).
IX is actually my favorite of the 3, despite the huge popularity of VII (Though it's still good)
VIII is just somewhat odd, enjoyable, but can't compete with the other 2.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3962555
yet the game stressed that more magic in a stat = the better it is.
and the fastest way to get spells without triggering the retarded level scaling, that the player isn't warned about? Drawing.
>inb4 Card command
it's RNG if it works or not
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>3932790
I like the job system, but the story and characters kind of suck. I started with 6, played the rest up until 13, didn't play 5 until a few years ago. I have zero nostalgia for it and thus can't get in to it.
>>
>>
>>