>>3971165
Ackshually, it was "Fighting Man", "Magic User" and "Cleric".

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>>3971165
>Sword
>Board
This is all you need; anything else is bloat.

>>3971166
How is a cleric not just a mage that can use a shield?

>>3971165
Fighter
Cleric
Mage
Is the truth in encapsuled the very essence of being a man:
>Fighter
The essence of strength itself to improve oneself
>Mage
The power of mind to think and preserve
>Cleric
The power of faith and to endure any trail you may face

>Thief
Pussy shit

>>3971166
Blessed is the mind too small for doubt

>>3971192
How is a thief not just a fighter who can shut his fucking mouth? How is an archer not just a smarter fighter?

>>3971165
>white male two handed fighter
rest if bloat
wizards are evil btw

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>>3971165
Actually, you just need "Hero"

>>3971165
Thief is unnecessary, and only exists because common sense skills were arbitrarily ripped from everyone else.

Lemme guess, you want magic, reality bending butter knives that ignore armor, and spindly, scrawny fucks using bows, too?

A fighter that doesn't carry a bow, a two hander, a blunt weapon, and a sword and board is a fake fighter.

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>>3971165
>tfw no Kineticist or Bloodrager
But I'm SPECIAL! I need a special class!

>>3971300
Primalist may not be needed but it sure the fuck is enjoyable, unlike being a >>3971165 styled contrarian in hopes it will make you an intersting person.

>>3971275
disarming traps from chests and locks is common sense?

>>3971165
>>Fighter
>>Mage
>>Thief

need a heal slut priestess to suck my RPG(really perky gonads)

>>3972613
Yes

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>>3971165

>Fighter/Mage
>Gish
>Spellblade
>Spellsword
>Magus
>Bladesinger
>Mysic Knight
>Mystic Fencer
>Battlemage
>Bladecaster
>Witchblade
>Hexblade

This is the only class that has ever, or will ever matter in any RPG. Everything else is boring bloat.

IMHO

>>3972811
Absolutely not. You're the kind of idiot who thinks you can totally wrestle into submission a dragon the size of a house.

>>3972811
And by this logic I assume you believe wielding a sword and shield is common sense too? A wizard is smart! Why is there not just one class that does everything?

>>3972845
No
The time a wizard spends researching magic precludes physical training, the time a fighter spends physically training precludes researching magic. The wizard is assumed capable of most kinds of magic, the fighter is assumed capable of most kinds of physical combat. They may have their own specialties within the things they can do, but they are fundamentally capable of their spheres. Niether are idiots, but they have chosen to invest their time differently.
If you really want to squint, the existence of Clerics and Druids or similar forms of alternative mage can be accepted, since while they are fundamentally wizards, their studies are different and non-interchangable enough that it could be argued they are different. I think that's a stretch, but I can see it argued.
A fighter that prefers wearing light armor and using bows is still a fighter. A fighter that prefers great weapons and no armor, is still a fighter. A fighter that prefers heavy armor, shields, and a sling is still a fighter. And a Fighter, as written and intended, is capable of all these things provided proper equipment and a reason to do it, as the situation requires.

And a fighter that prefers using magic augmentation when possible isn't a spellblade, he's just not an idiot.

>>3972833
>he can't overpower building sized lizards
lmao get a load of this weak little faggot

>>3972833
No
The leverage is all wrong, no amount of physical strength can allow someone to do this. At best, they could pin the wings up, and even that requires a tremendously strong person.
Picking locks is completely common sense, because I figured out how to do it in like a week. I could absolutely get better at it, but it has not taken years of focused effort to become competent at it. I cannot spend like a week becoming an Olympic athlete. That takes years of effort that would have otherwise defined my lifestyle before this.
Moving quietly is common sense. Developing a sense and instinct for traps in a dungeon comes from experience being in dungeons, like an adventurer, not from robbing and prison shanking people, like a thief.

It's concerning that you think these two cases are equivalent, however.

>>3972869
Do you even Archimedes, bro?

>>3972864
>The time a wizard spends researching magic precludes physical training, the time a fighter spends physically training precludes researching magic.
Except you can have a physically strong wizard in every edition in D&D, yet he still can't use simple weapons like spears or equip a set of chainmail at all. Stop rationalizing this shit.
>>3972869
>Moving quietly is common sense. Developing a sense and instinct for traps in a dungeon comes from experience being in dungeons, like an adventurer, not from robbing and prison shanking people, like a thief.
"Thieves" are just "adventurers" in a practical sense. They're half-way between a fighter and wizard in terms of martial capability, but where the fighter over-specializes, a thief is far more comfortable in the role of a generalist who can do many other things at once.

>>3972927
>physically strong wizard in every edition in D&D
Doesn't qualify for exceptional strength
>equip a set of chainmail
Interferes with somatic spell components
You're mistaking "talent" for "practiced skill and training"

>>3972933
>Doesn't qualify for exceptional strength
You don't need "exceptional strength" to use a spear and chainmail.
>Interferes with somatic spell components
And when you're not casting, what then?
>You're mistaking "talent" for "practiced skill and training"
Doesn't matter, the line is arbitrary.

>>3971192
They are holy man, mages are standard wizards.
>>3971197
Thieves are functionnaly mages, but with skills instead of spells.

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>>3972829
>Gish

>>3972829
damn
wish I could play as a Bard(Blade kit).
I really like when I can fight with swords and melee and supplement my fighting style with magic.

>>3971165
>class slop
yawn

>>3971166
>"Fighting Man"
The term was "Fighter."

>>3971300
she's not allowed at the boys-only table.

>>3976331
NTA. “Fighting man” predates “fighter” by years, just like “magic user” predates “mage”

>>3976346
"Fighter" is younger, but it's still the correct term.

>>3971165
Who's healing this party? The mage?

>>3977533
Resting heals you.

>>3977533
>Who's healing this party?
Wickwheat and marshmerrow shakes

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>>3971165
The difference between bloat and variety is implementation.

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>>3977603
>Goblins stabs you in the knee.

>Group A: No healer just rest
>6~8 weeks of immobilization
>4 weeks of progressive physical therapy
>rest of your life: permanent mobility loss, scarring, pain, adventurer's insurance won't cover it

>Groub B: Dedicated healer
>healer prays for like 20 seconds
>knee completely healed
>remember to thank my healer

I know which party I'm joining.

>>3977623
I used to be a shitposter like you, until I took a career-ending injury to the knee.

>>3977533
Nobody, you rest like in classic tabletop games.

>>3977623
Just drink a healing potion

>>3977533
They don't need to heal because a warrior should be mitigating any damage coming the party's way, the thief should be scouting ahead for danger, and the mage should have a solution tucked somewhere in their spellbook.

>>3977693
>Do one combat
>Spend 8+ months healing up
>Another 4+ months of rehab
>Accumulate lifelong debilitating injuries each time
Nice party comp retard.

>>3977703
>Spend gold each time you tank a hit
Nah, I'll just bring a healer.

>>3977705
And who heals the warrior, numb nuts?

>>3977623
>3 negorian mages
>1 darky knight
>allan snackbars. blood for the blood god!!! kek kek kek!
it's all optics man.

>>3977706
>Surgery doesn't exist
>Medicine doesn't exist
>Magic healing elixirs in fantasy land don't exist
>Doctors in big cities don't exist
>Wild shamans/medicine men don't exist
>He thinks medieval troops spent 1 year recovering from injuries instead of mounting up for the next battle next week/month
Die faggot

To me, the most sensible is:
Fighter (Focuses on combat)
Rogue (Focuses on tricks, slight of hand, stealth, charisma)
Magic-User (Focuses on powerful spells, but only has a few available for any given situation so you better be ready)
Cleric (Focuses on a bit of everything, plus faith)

>>3977737
He's right, prior to the industrial revolution basically none of that shit existed and the form it did exist was mostly ineffective. You're far more likely to get an infection and die than you were to recover from an injury.

>>3977774
GURPS does a good job of gamifying medicine / recovery according to historically-accurate technology progression (the term you'll find in the books is "tech level").

>>3977774
Fantasy adventures only work if you have some kind of magical healing, be that a guy who casts healing spells, a guy who brews healing potions, or if everyone in the group just has wolverine's healing factor for some reason. Real healing is slow, and even seemingly minor injuries can lead to major complications.

Paladins are the only class anyone needs.
>Beat the shit out of monsters
>Heal yourself
>Bash open treasure chests with warhammer
>Just walk through traps and heal yourself
>Bring some friends along if you get bored, resurrect them when they do retarded shit
>All the women lust after your purity, so you can choose the most virtuous one to impregnate
Easy life, blessed be God.

>>3977917
Exactly right.
I see (D&D) Clerics as basically a variation on the Paladin concept but shifted more towards the God side of the equation.

>>3971185
Third posts the charm or something. PRAISE THE SUN!

>>3973078
This. Thief class has the body, the physical realm, maxed. The mage has the mental, psychological, while having a paltry body.

It's give 'n' take baby, compromise - the way of life. For now.

>>3971165
It's still funny that being a criminal became a fundamental role in rpgs.

>>3978031
Blame Bilbo the Burgler

>>3971165
What's the SF equivalent of these?

>>3978332
Ryu
Dhalsim
'Gief

no matter what you pick you only get a fraction of the experience. the hero should be a fighter who can use magic and sneak around

>>3978386
Fuck off, Todd

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>>3978374

>>3977917
>Paladins
>Easy life
"Though the knight commanded respect, he was rarely envied. His life was dangerous and brutal, marked by incessant confrontations and the constant threat of humiliation. Rather than adventuring for honor or pleasure, most engaged in a constant struggle for income, desperately seeking any and all opportunities to earn an honest living. The rigid chivalric code, which made abstract principles of loyalty more important than life itself, resulted in a death sentence for most knights. Few lived beyond age 30. Those who survived often spent their remaining years penniless and broken, depending on the charity of a society that had all but forgotten them."
>-AD&D 2nd edition, the complete paladin's handbook

>>3972955
>While [Magic-users] have mighty spells of offensive, defensive, and informational nature, magic-users are very weak in combat. They have but four-sided dice (d4) to determine how many hit points of damage they can withstand, and magic-users have the least favorable table and progression as regards missile and melee combat. Furthermore, they can wear no armor and have few weapons they can use, for martial training is so foreign to magic-use as to make the two almost mutually exclusive.
-AD&D 1st ed PHB

>Spending their lives in pursuit of arcane wisdom, wizards have little time for physical endeavors. They tend to be poor fighters with little knowledge of weapons.
>Spells are the tools, weapons, and armor of the wizard. He is weak in a toe-to-toe fight
>Wizards cannot wear any armor, for several reasons. Firstly, most spells require complicated gestures and odd posturings by the caster and armor restricts the wearer's ability to do these properly. Secondly, the wizard spent his youth (and will spend most of his life) learning arcane languages, poring through old books, and practicing his spells. This leaves no time for learning other things (like how to wear armor properly and use it effectively). If the wizard had spent his time learning about armor, he would not have even the meager skills and powers he begins with.
>For similar reasons, wizards are severely restricted in weapons they can use. They are limited to those that are easy to learn or are sometimes useful in their own research. Hence, a wizard can use a dagger or a staff, items that are traditionally useful in magical studies. Other weapons allowed are darts, knives, and slings (weapons that require little skill, little strength, or both)
-AD&D 2nd ed PHB

It's an attempt to balance the classes. If you wanted a mage who could fight, roll a fighter/mage multiclass, and sacrifice some of your spellcasting for fighting ability.

>>3971275
based thief hater
>stealth is invisibility
fuck off with that shit

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>>3971185
>>Sword
>>Board
>This is all you need; anything else is bloat.

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>>3978665
>t.
>later that day

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>>3971165
>Thief
Nah. Trash archetype .
>stealing
Either a side activity that can be performed without a dedicated thief or immersion-breaking savescumming/metagaming bait.
>disarming traps
Dogshit mechanic. Skill monkey dispelling invisible environmental hazard is antithetical to Indiana Jones style set pieces that dungeon traps are trying to replicate.
>stealth
Consistently shitty and underdeveloped in every game where it's not the main focus, especially in RPGs.
>lockpicking
Held back by level designers' skill issues.
>bows and daggers
Ah, yes, the arbitrary "dex" weapons that are somehow too sophisticated for a fighter, an expert in all things martial.

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You need a THF in the party because without Treasure Hunter your chance to get that rare drop off that enemy that only spawns once every 72~86 hours is going to be at a 2.1% rate instead of the optimal 6.275% rate

>>3978683
>rare drops
Not even once.

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>>3978685
I'm sorry for your loss, but that's what you get for not bringing a THF.

>>3978680
>Ah, yes, the arbitrary "dex" weapons that are somehow too sophisticated for a fighter, an expert in all things martial.
What kind of retarded rpg system are you talking about where fighters can't use bows or daggers?

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>>3978680
Problem with stealth classes is they basically need the entire game built around them to truly shine. That's how Thief came to be, for example.

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>>3977917
As far as D&D originally went Paladins were supposed to be anything but easy to play.

>strict stat spread just to play as one
>oaths you had to keep
>alignment limitations

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>>3977693
This is the solution in tabletop RPGs without magical healing. But then again, you have downtime to account for some seasons like winter were not relegated to war, for example. In practice it makes mass combat a suicide and fighting in general a last resort thing where you want to stack the odds in your favor. Add honor to the mix for nightmare difficulty.

>>3972811
enjoy getting raped to death by literally any mimic, retard

>>3978748
>strict stat spread just to play as one
Doesn't make it harder to play, just less likely.
>oaths you had to keep
>alignment limitations
Unless the DM is set on having you fall for storyfaggot reasons, it's impossible to fail on those points and they instead become easy to follow guidelines on how to roleplay your character.

>>3977917
>>3977925
pretty sure paladins can't rez the dead. unless there's some new rules in DnD i don't care about.
and yes clerics are good for everything, except lockpicking.

>>3978914
oath of poverty sounds neat until you have to live by it

>>3972613
For an adventuring person?
Yes, very common sense. Same with repairing and maintenance of your gear, basic medical skills, recognizing common plants, starting fire, cooking and whatever can be logically concluded from your background - you papa was a horse keeper and mother a tailor and you did not had tragic backstory with them dying when you were little babu, so you have some basic knowledge about what they were doing.

>>3978679
Crassus had severe skill issues. Caesar would have won.

>>3978758
>like winter
Just equip all your soldiers with snowshoes and skis.

>>3979287
Caesar would have run better reconnaissance and never gotten himself in such a situation, but if he was in command of the battle the result would have been the same. No amount of tactical brilliance would have saved Carrhae for the Romans. That battle was won and lost with logistics.

>>3976332
That's a male.

I am a strict purist when it comes to adventuring party size in RPGs. It should be either solo, or 6-8. I don't like the mediocrity of 3-4 niggas (in a row or otherwise), which a lot of games have settled into. Very few of them do something different with that limited party size. It's usually the same strict class distinction as in bigger party titles, but you have fewer people.

>>3971165
>less options = good
Missing the point entirely. There should be as many options & variations as possible so you can tailor your build & character concept any way you want. This approach only becomes a problem if it’s half-assed and filled with trap options that are just mechanically the same as others but worse. If you simplify it to the basics of just three pure classes then your title will be flooded with casuals because you’ve made it too accessible & bland.

>>3981196
>If you simplify it to the basics of just three pure classes then your title will be flooded with casuals because you’ve made it too accessible & bland.
What's the rationale here?

>>3971197
Thief is lateral thinking, circumvention, he has a place.

>>3981196
>There should be as many options & variations as possible so you can tailor your build & character concept any way you want.
This is the kind of midwit thinking that led to disgusting superfluous bloat like Pathfinder. The point of RPG mechanics is to facilitate and implement roleplaying, they’re not the end in and of themselves. If you can’t satisfactorily roleplay “fighter” as the special snowflake you’re imagining, that’s on you, not the ruleset. You don’t need nineteen different types of “arcane caster, stat X, stat Y, half caster, 3/4ths caster, spontaneous caster” etc. you want a fighter/mage multiclass? There you go, fighter/mage multiclass with a split to taste.
Play your sheet.

>>3981220
>You make it too easy
>Activist tourists easily pass the barrier of entry >They become the loud minority and start astroturfing politics using your game
>Paying normies and faggots leave to something more entertaining and less obnoxious
>You're forced to pander to unpaying audience that eats their own
>You escalate the pandering in hopes of translating political autism to money. You fail.
>You're forever marked as the developer of "THAT GAME" and have much lower chance of attracting people for your next game.

Make things harder. Force people to engage with complex systems. Filter out those who don't care about games.

>>3981264
>Force people to engage with complex systems
Talking about “engaging with a games systems” is on par with using the term “macromastia” to mean “I like really big tits”. It does not make you sound smarter.

>>3981267
What? Why do you think that common phrase is "smart speech" in the first place?

>>3981196
>>3981264
..Is this the same anon?

File: NAY.jpg (153.0 KB)

>>3981270
No.

>>3981269
>Why do you think that common phrase is "smart speech" in the first place?
It’s not, but /vrpg/ anons repeat it all the time to prove they’re part of the big boy very serious RPG enthusiast club. “Engaging with a games mechanics” and “engaging with a games systems”. No you don’t understand I’m not like those other people who play video games to have fun like peasants, I’m ““engaging”” with the “”mechanical systems””. It’s a pretentious shibboleth.

>>3981281
>It’s a pretentious shibboleth.
It's a phrase coined by normie game journos and is a shorter way to say "paying close attention to X". You're sperging over something that's never been an issue.

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>>3972829
Based

>>3978646
>slings
>little skill
>darts
>little skill
Impale Gary gygax. Crush Gary gygax's balls with a hammer. Inoculate Gary gygax with zyklon b.

>>3981289
>You're sperging over something that's never been an issue.
I’m deeply immersed in the boards mechanics, and engaging with its systems.

>Warrior
>Paladin/cleric (faggy warrior)
>Mage
>Priest (faggy mage)
>Thief
>Archer
These are the 6 true classes.

>>3971166
truth nuke

>>3972927
>wizard can't equip chainmail
blud never heard of elven mail

>>3971165
I only play games with monk class.
I love use my bare hands

>>3981658
Why would someone make armor out of elves?

>>3981732
well, they've got to fit SOME sort of role in the party

>>3971165
>A monk with self buffs; using the totality of yourself to get through the enemies in a solipsistic manner.
>An illusionist with rogueish inclinations; the proclivity for using others as your playthings to self-destruct and avoiding sullying your hands.
>A pilgrim with silver tongue and charisma; the pacifism that seeks to quell the needles strife with a kind word, but not fearing to use force when necessary.
>A human fighter in heavy armor; the quintessence of humanity that, while not burning for long, showcases the will and limit of man's tenacity in face of void arcane gifts.

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>>3981764
I swear Monks are always ass except for THAT one specific scenario where the party gets captured and their powers negated in some way so now the Monk has to save the day.

>>3981786
Monks are super good in BG2:SoA.

>>3981786
monks get better the more you level them because their fists turn into +X weapons and they gain resistances/immunities along the way.

>>3981236
>I break rules and steal shit
Criminal, uncivilized, and sub-human third worlder mentality, They have no place in an honest man's world, or adventuring party.

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>>3981391
Pretty much my default character in every RPG I play.
Love me that archetype.

>>3971165
If an rpg magic system wasn't lying gamified horseshit you only need a mage for anything.
>he can change of the rules of reality, but we had to cripple him with asspull caveats just to make the game fit the only mould our peabrains could conveice of!

>>3981963
The most generic default bland trope possible? You cook by just dumping whatever into a pot and boiling it for an hour, and you think you're a fucking genius because the beige slop produced can be sucked down your dick hole in between queue times for League matches.
Fucking gross. Gross and stupid.

>>3981996
It's always the "mages are masters of magic! but squirting fire, electricity or cold is the only thing they can do" bullshit, isn't it.

>>3981963
LLMs and their consequences have been a disaster for fantasy portrait art.

>>3982012
Why are you giving us your dinner recipes?

>>3981963
>i love being a faggot in games
>it's my favorite

>>3982013
>"mages are masters of magic!
yes play MOM. but that is a /vst/ with optional Heroes to level up.

>>3981788
>>3981786
https://www.mobygames.com/game/5840/legend-of-legaia/
https://shining.fandom.com/wiki/Master_Monk_(class)
https://vandalhearts.fandom.com/wiki/Character_Classes#Monk

>>3982016
Alright, lets see your fursona.

>>3984911
considering xe/xister does not know the difference between an LLM and a stable diffusion machine, supposed to say xe/xir is not a computer nerd, and can't be a furry

>>3971165

But i like the bloat anon. I like advanced classes that require specialization proficiency and to master certain skills first and i like to be able to build my classes as i think they should be. While i´m no fan of overpowered characters that can do just about anything to the point classes become meaningless i find dipping or even multiclassing acceptable for the sake of achieving a concept.

For example in pathfinder WoTR i had to mix like 4 classes to get my thief to actually be cool. I wanted a thief that could use smokescreens to teleport to crit from the shadows and throw it´s knives while remained obscured but the default rogue was incapable of doing that by itself.

Or say you want a spellsword? More often than not the build in spellwords are trash

>INB4 that´s because the concept of spellswords is trash

Calm your tits. I just want to roleplay Elric. That´s as classic as high fantasy archetypes get. It´s not as if i want 6+ tier level spells and 8 attacks for turn or something. In short, it´s not about min maxing, it´s about to having the tools to build the character you want to roleplay and creating synergies. Finding the best ways skills and feats complement each other to build that.

>>3971197
>>3981236
My main issue of thief is that their role is usually just solving problems accessory to combat. E.g.
>pick chest
>disarm
Their role is specialized and typically outside of combat. Or if they do, it's usually some roundabout stuff.
MMO's shift towards tank, heal and DPS forced the thief/rogue to have a meaningful combat role.
The cleric meanwhile, actually has a role within combat that isn't just roundabout combat, but is a crucial part of healing within it.
I will say one thing: thief/rogue is the class of most heroes in literature. Most stories aren't about a fighter and his years of martial arts leading the day, or a mage using his decades of study. It's usually a swashbuckler, a free-thinker. A rogue, who uses his wits to defeat foes bigger and stronger. It's just RPGs can't really translate this dynamic effectively, hence me giving them crap here despite narratively being my favorite class.

>>3985570
because going by D&D tradition rogue was a skill monkey

>>3985574
Also, the ability of using stuff like wands.

>>3981220
The quality of the game will become worse with consecutive entries if casuals are the primary marketing base, as dumbing down mechanics to appease incompetents becomes the primary design philosophy while meaningful challenge, depth, and leaving space for the player to make novel discoveries gets shafted; you are asking for the series to be slowly killed overtime by seeking to remove “bloat” and be overly minimalistic. The options for character building have to be vast, with stats that go into specific minutia with consequences for what you prioritize & what you don’t. Better to have multiple types of fighters, hybrids, and pre-requisites for their equipments if it means combat is going to be engaging & require as much strategy as was put into character creation instead of having one generic fighter that just spams attack and calls it a day.

>mage who casts spells on his fists so he can punch a hole through a castle wall and a dragon's chest
get on my level

>>3980074
a military fireteam never consists of more than 5 people, so neither should an adventuring party.

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>>3991212
>a military fireteam never consists of more than 5 people

>>3991215
>anon can't read
that's a breakdown of a squad's equipment, it even shows how it's two fire teams of 4 men each.

>>3971165
>sword and board warrior, boring, dependable, farm boy
>fighter with magic scrolls, a nerd and autistic
>fighter with bandages and potions, big brother/sister attitude, tired of his job, smokes a lot
>fighter with knifes and a robe, likes to steal, likes to gamble, spends all in whores, Robin Hood complex

There you go, sars, your adveture party.

>>3991218
I realized that about two seconds after I posted it
Such is life

>>3971165
why are you pretending like this is an earthshattering revelation when it's how every wrpg has been designed for the last 25 years

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>>3971165
>>Fighter
>>Mage
>>Thief
That's already one too many.

>I want to be the master of the sword, beating hordes of enemies with nothing but steel and grit.
>I want to control the forces of the arcane, bending reality itself to my iron will.
>I just want to run away and hide from my enemies! uwu

You'd have to incredibly cucked to want to play a thief.

>>3981475
>weapons that require little skill, little strength, or both
Illiterate retard or ESL?

>>3991334
And they're all girls except for the magic nerd, who they bully relentlessly.

>>3971165
>no healer
>no jester
Shameful display

>>3991374
If you have fun playing a thief, that's all that matters. Don't be so insecure, man.

>>3971165
IRL everybody just want to be the warrior.
Mages are NEETs.
Thieves are poorfags.

>>3991599
Not me. In games I like the simplicity of bonking people with big sticks but if I had the choice in real life to be able to do magic, I'd take that.
Anyone can be strong if they exercise enough but no matter how many weights you lift, you can't get magic that way.
Very short sighted of you.

>>3991764
Lift books.

>>3991764
>Anyone can be strong if they exercise enough but no matter how many weights you lift, you can't get magic that way.
It worked for Cameron

>>3977611
rolling

I like the idea of unexpected specialization for classes
Like a mage tank and a healing rogue

>>3991591
NTA, but I do have a problem with Rogues. Like, I can't pinpoint what they represent aside from crooks that are incompetents outside of lockpicking.
You have Robin the Hood, the THIEF by pop culture standard, who is also a good wrestler, archer, swordfighter and has his own bands of acolytes. By D&D standards, he is a Fighting Man who just happened to be a thief and a local hero.
Another example: Conan. That big, agile, panther like warrior (according to the stories) had a period where he was a thief too.
My point is that Fighting Man, Magic Users and Clerics defines archetypes while Rogue/Thief defines a job, which confuse me.

>>3993674
A mage tank just uses buffs & defensive spells, but how would a healing rogue work? A physician/surgeon who can stitch people up? An pseudo-alchemist who force feeds the party with healing potions?

>>3993911
They say laughter is the best medicine

>>3993696
The rogue is usually a multi-skilled operative. In another kind of media, he would a spy, a secret agent, an infiltrator.
Not much good on a field of battle or in a duel where he can't use devious tricks.

>>3993915
>he would a spy, a secret agent, an infiltrator.
>Not much good on a field of battle or in a duel where he can't use devious tricks.
Your spies suck https://youtube.com/watch?v=R3zdYUG2_RA

>>3982012
>food analogy

>>3971165
You're missing cleric.

>>3993696
Fighter-rogue is the hero's class, not just rogue. They can't defeat hordes of evil or a dragon man-to-man, but they use a combination of wits, brawn and luck to win anyways.

>>3993912
Ah so a bard

File: zoltan.jpg (2.6 KB)

>Mage

This is all you need for an rpg

>>3977917
Uhm, BASED?

>>3994521
>This is all you need for an rpg
One role for a roleplaying game?

>>3994674
We're literally a single species and we invented roleplaying. Limitation is what creates roleplaying opportunities.

File: super.jpg (35.7 KB)

>>3994860
Indeed. When you can do everything, you have no role.

>>3994860
>Limitation is what creates roleplaying opportunities.
What do you mean?

>>3994873
Theatrics, early Greek theatre to be exact.

>>3991764
>Anyone can be strong if they exercise enough
Very short sighted (and ableist) of you to ignore disabled people.

>>3994877
They didn't have different roles..?

>>3994884
They realised roles through limits imposed by temple traditions and the original purpose of story recitation (aka chorus performance and religious ceremony).

>>3994899
..so multiple roles but with limited means of expressing them?

This isn't really relevant to my post in the first place, is it.

>>3971192
Cleric was just a hybrid fighter+mage
The rogue archetype was identified afterward.

The general category involves using a combination of cunning, indirection, social savvy, miscellaneous technical skills and willingness to violate laws and norms to get ahead. This is distinct enough from both fighters and magic-users, but also a viable adventuring cagetory, that it deserves its own archetype.

Because many of the miscellaneous adventuring skills are dex-based (lockpicking, for example), the rogue category became unfortunately synonymous with the "dex/agi" category even though many of those are really just fighter variants. A fencer isn't a fighter/rogue hybrid it's just a fighter that specializes in rapiers and minimal armor. A better example of a fighter with some rogue-archetype traits would be a Swashbuckler.

>>3993696
Speaking as broadly as possible, the defining elements of the Rogue archetype are indirection and breaking the rules. While any good fighter will be clever and possess skills to trick opponents, the rogue makes tricks and cunning primary.
>Robin Hood
The defining feature of Robin Hood is his defiance of the current order and violating laws. He may not literally be a rogue by "D&D standards" but his story inspires the archetype of a rule-breaking rogue. Robin Hood acquired warrior skills fighting in the crusades, then after returning home had to become an outlaw to fight the corrupt government.
>Conan
Conan is basically the inverse of Robin Hood. Instead of a crusader turned outlaw, Conan was a thief and scoundrel with a code of honor and immense strength and will who rose to prominence through successful adventuring. Conan being a thief is more about his backstory, not his primary means of advancing in the world. The better argument for why Conan might be considered a rogue is how often he relies on cunning over brute force to win. But I'd counter-argue in most cases that's an example of the "Warrior cunning" of tactics and strategy rather than the more subversive cunning of a rogue.
>>3993915
Correct.
In videogames where the combat system is basically all that matters, rogues will often have something like backstab because it's a "dishonorable" way to fight.

>>3977611
These gradients always become a thesaurus dump once you get past like 10 archetypes.

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