>>18320093
The Ottoman Empire.

>>18320093
The Papacy

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>>18320093
the Soviet Union. peak Rome was a people's republic.

>>18320115
Even Mehmet gave up the roman larp quick

>>18320093
Clearly the spanish empire.

SUOMI

>>18320093
>successor
one is german larper, other one is actually THE roman empire, not some "successor". not the cool roman empire though, but a degenerate version that emerged after crisis of 3rd century, known as dominate.

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>>18320254
>Heinrich VI demands tribute from Isaac II Angelos
>he complies

>>18320093
Rome is overrated garbage

Early modern european empires such as British, Spanish and French mog them so hard is not even funny

>>18320239
Romejeets wish they were as powerful and iconic as the Spanish empire was

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>>18320273
>Spics need 700 years to complete there reconquista
>Wellington does it in just 7 years.

>>18320254
Why could libyans, illyrians, gauls, celtiberians, greeks, syrians... be roman emperors but not germans?

>>18320351
those were roman citizens prior to it.

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>>18320358
>citizenship = nationality

>>18320374
>you live in illyria part of the roman empire as filthy p*llegrini
>c*racally gives citizenship to all
>you are roman now and can become roman emperor
>you live in germania (not part of roman empire)
>institutio antoniana has no effect there
>you can never become roman emperor

>roman empire is dissolved in the west
>now it's too late for you to do anything when you are in germania
simple enough for you?

>>18320093
Neither the HRE or the Byzantrannies were Roman as they were Christcucks, only pagans can be Roman. Rome died in 363 when Julian failed to stop the Christianization of the empire.

>>18320115
Any claim the ottomans are the successors of Rome relies on the Byzantines being the successors of rome
>>18320503
Cute opinion

>>18320409
Caracalla wasn't considered a true roman during his time, him granting citizenship to everyone pissed off the old italian elites. Also muh citizenship is fucking retarded when half of byzantine emperors were armenian. You're the exact same kind of faggot who brings up the american constitution as if it were god's 11th commandment and not just a piece of fucking paper, "romanitas" or whatever you want to call it was the exact same

>>18320093
The Greater Frankish Reich, by right of conquest and by being the biggest baddest most warlike chads in post-Roman Europe
Everything else is cope and seethe
vae victis

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>>18320409
Illyrian emperors saved the empire dvmbvs fvckvs
you literally picked the worst province to illustrate your 'point' which means you don't have a point at all

>>18320574
this

>>18320572
>when half of byzantine emperors were armenian
and they were fucking faggots
>>18320586
are you slow? it's not about blood, it's about institutional right of being a roman citizen. now keep seething retard.

>>18320604
>it's about institutional right of being a roman citizen.
fucking mong aren't you embarrassed of your retardation?
It was about who could protect rome from the Longobards and/or Arabs
The Isarurian dynasty couldn't. Pippin could.
Then Irene decided to fuck it up even more by blinding and murdering her son and ruling in his name
The pope needed an emperor and Charles needed a reason to rule non-Franks

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>>18320093
Both the HRE and Byzantines were valid continuations of the Roman Empire. I don't know why this is so hard for people to comprehend. I think they just want to start fights to prove that their favourite state is superior.

>>18320568
>relies on the Byzantines being the successors of rome
they weren't. they just were rome, unless you're talking about the empire after it reclaimed constaninople from the latins.
the eastern half didn't fall until 1204

>>18320722
>The Isarurian dynasty couldn't. Pippin could
nice gymnastics, but that doesn't make him roman emperor. roman empire was dead then.

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>>18320726

>>18320115
So if I break into your house, kill you, and wear your clothes that means I am you?

>>18320836
Only if you also fuck his wife, pay his taxes, and raise his sons.

>>18320093
Venice for a serious answer, HRE to own the byznuchs.
>>18320138
Trvke
>>18320741
>Based from Constantinople, the New Rome
>the New Rome
>the New

Meanwhile the chad Holy ROMAN Empire controlled the ACTUAL Rome.

>>18320852
One of these verbs is not an accurate description of the OSMAN-gr**k relationship.

>>18320902
>controlled the ACTUAL Rome.
the Pope would have disagreed

>>18320093
America

>>18320902
Venice is roman republic

>>18320737
>gymnastics
realpolitik dumb fuck
>doesn't make Charles a Roman
But Leo the Khazar is a purebred descendant of Camillus right? You're so retarded it's not even funny

>>18320093
vatican, the city, san marino

>>18320093
The Byzantines weren't the successor to the Romans, they literally were the Romans. At least until the 4th crusade.

>>18320503
>only pagans can be Roman
why?

>>18320093
Eastern Roman Empire wasnt a "successor" but THE Roman empire just with a new capital. It ended in 15th century and barbarians roaming their ruins and claiming successor status are irrelevant.

>>18321620
This is something people miss too much. There was never an "Eastern Roman Empire" or "Western Roman Empire", the western and eastern halves of the Roman Empire were just ruled by different emperors, the jurisdictions changed but it was still just one empire, nobody viewed it as two separate states.
Successor state implies it was a new state that arose after the Roman empire ceased to exist, when in reality we just say Eastern and Western Rome to distinguish regions of the Roman empire.
>>18320374
Nationality wasn't a thing in antiquity and you're retarded for thinking an ancient city-turned-empire is the same thing as the modern concept of a nation state.

>>18320093
All the states of Peninsular Italy

>>18320726
what the fuck is this degenerate shit?

>>18321108
then why did he crown the German kings as Roman Emperors?

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>Otto III arranged for his imperial palace to be built on the Palatine Hill and planned to restore the ancient Roman Senate to its position of prominence. He revived the city's ancient governmental system, including appointing a City Patrician, a City Prefect, and a body of judges whom he commanded to recognize only Roman law. In order to strengthen his title to the Roman Empire and to announce his position as the protector of Christendom, Otto III took for himself the titles "the Servant of Jesus Christ", "the Servant of the Apostles", "Consul of the Senate and People of Rome", and "Emperor of the World".

>>18320374
Rome was founded by criminals, exiles, and undesirables. They raped a bunch of Sabine women to start a small settlement.
What nationality is that?

>>18321772
Damn this guy was deep into larping. Had the cosplay and lore.

>>18321512
oh now it's realpolitik, that's new. lulz. german cope is indeed borderless. no, you never had been roman empire, you filthy disgusting krautoid. you obsession with muh blood, and being unable to fathom basic roman laws only proves my point.

>>18321660
it's arguable that 1204 was indeed THE end (the center of centralized empire is kill). the whole idea of frankish "temporal" rule was just p*lailogoi propaganda to create façade of their legitimacy. palailogoi empire indeed was a true succesor state, but not direct continuation of rome anymore.

>>18321975
I'm not even Germanic you monkey
but what happened happened for several very good reasons
not least of all being Frankish history from Clovis to Charles
you're a fucking piss-poor thirdie who doesn't have two brain cells to rub together
yes realpolitik was a very valid reason, but not the only one
the popes and Carolingians were thinking long-term too, both looking at the past and future of their respective polities
The HRE was not some spontaneous development. It took centuries of conscious and unconscious work by all parties involved
now go back and study, swarthoid scum

>>18321985
Hello anon, have you read Ed Watts new book? He also places 1204 as the end.

>>18321660
>the jurisdictions changed but it was still just one empire, nobody viewed it as two separate states.
Agreed. This divide was later over emphasized for political reasons because being a "successor" gave legitimacy for your power.

>>18322032
>yes realpolitik was a very valid reason, but not the only one
>the popes and Carolingians were thinking long-term too, both looking at the past and future of their respective polities
>The HRE was not some spontaneous development. It took centuries of conscious and unconscious work by all parties involved
yet, none of this makes them roman ya dingus

>>18322037
no, it's more like my opinion haha. name of the book pls?

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>>18322111
Here you go.
You probably won't learn many new things, there were some nice bits of info here and there that I never knew. But it's a nice easy read and no one has gone from 753BC to 1204AD before. He makes good connections between all eras of Roman history and it gives a broad picture of the state.

>>18322109
except that it does ya dipshit
the pope is Roman by default (Bishop of Rome)
The Merovingians and Carolingians became Roman by adoption. The Franks were Foederati living within the Empire (before it collapsed) who just took over and then converted to Christianity
are you retarded or just pretending?
one is worse than the other

The Holy Roman Empire:
Often ruled Rome or had a major say in Roman politics
Spoke Latin
Heirs were called King of the Romans

Need I say more?

>>18322256
>the pope is Roman by default (Bishop of Rome)
hahaha. no, a religious dude that just lives in rome post 476/530's cannot exert any continuity bs.
>The Merovingians and Carolingians became Roman by adoption
no such thing as adoption by dead empire exists. cope harder.

>>18322287
>goalpost moving
If the pope does not have the authority, then who does?
and why did this other person with more authority not enforce the law?
The Franks were living in Roman territory before 476 you brown fecaloid

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>>18321772
I realise this is silly but I still struggle to shake my childhood view of the medieval ages. It still feels so strange that stone castles and keeps were a rather late development. Like how had these places been unified into states far larger than those in Europe today, while the leaders literally still lived in what amounts to wooden shacks ffs

>>18322272
Do you also believe that a man who dresses like a woman is a real woman?

>>18322304
nobody, the empire is dead. but you could argue the eastern part with uninterrupted institutions would have had at least some legitimacy. definitely not the western larpers. now feel free to keep insulting me, it seems that's all you are capable of.

>>18322272
>One empire was quite literally the same empire ruled by the likes of Augustus, Hadrian, or Justinian
>The other "empire" calls everything Roman to fulfill some imaginary checklist that they made up
You're the same type of retard to think a country is a democracy just because it has "democratic" in its name

Neither of them.

HRE simply LARPed as "Roman" but had virtually no continuity with the old Empire or Republic nor any of its official institutions at the core of their "empire".

The Byzantines were not "successors" because they WERE the Roman Empire. They never stopped being the Roman Empire at any point.

>>18322256
The height of Roman civilization was not Christian, so using the Pope or Christianity as a way to validate "Roman-ness" is retarded. The papacy established in post-Roman Italy has no more claim to being an inherently Roman institution than the Germanic kingdom that ruled Italy afterward.

I find it really funny that the only people you really see calling the HRE "Roman" over the Byzantine Empire are Charlemagne-worshipping tradcaths that think the pope is the ultimate authority on literally everything or Greek ultranationalists who think you're taking away from their history by calling the medieval Roman Empire "Roman", both groups that despise each other for completely unrelated reasons too

>>18322377
>Forgetting the "Rome" part
The Eastern empire was literally larping since they were nowhere near Rome. Meanwhile Holy Roman Emperors ruled Italy. Look at Frederick II. Spent almost his entire life in Italy, one of the most famous Holy Roman Emps. What do you have? Some bullshit Greek person who looks like an Arab

>>18320726
> Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation
> German Nation
> biggest and most powerful individual polity is Czech
why were they like this? are germans predestined to be ruled by slavs?

>>18322629
Your basis for an empire being Roman is ruling parts of Italy (not even Rome specifically) and not looking like an Arab?

>>18322313
HYPER-DECENTRALISATION aka Feudalism.

>>18322372
you don't know fuck all about either East or West
Vae victis

>>18322383
The height of Roman civilization was not a Greek-Armenian-Isaurian-Khazar peninsula either (which was also very Christian by this time)
you're talking out of your ass like the other idiot
I explained why the HRE made perfect sense, you can accept it or not

>>18322784
Philip the Arab was probably one of the worst emperors of the Third Century Crisis
His brother Priscus too, a total piece of shit
Even Decius was better and that's saying a lot cause he was terrible

>>18322784
It has to be somewhat Roman. Yes. That means Romans and Italians and being geographically around Rome.

>>18320093
The catholic church. How can you be a successor of Rome if you call yourself Rome?

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>>18322313
Charlemagne, his successors, and Otto the great did have stone houses. They were called Pfalze or palatinates and were mini palaces the Roman-German emperors would reside in.

America

>>18322417
I do it to dab on the byznuchs. Also who would want to have the b*zantine empire as their history anyways? What a pathetic excuse feasting on the carcass of Rome. Then again I suppose that beats being a Turk's cockholster.

>>18322417
PS, I also hate Charlemagne.

>>18321975
you're not roman joao you're a lowly brazilian

>>18320093
It's kind of absurd that an eastern rump state claims continuity with Rome despite not even controlling the city of Rome. Imagine if tomorrow Brazilians started insisting that they're the real Portugal and the people actually living in Portugal aren't really Portuguese.

>>18323271
roman isn't an ethnicity dumbass

>>18323283
Anyone have the image of that alt-hist garbage where Roman empire gradually migrates into Persia and finally becomes a Chinese dynastic state?

>>18323137
that's not how it works at all. By this logic a state could've conquered Cyrenaica and rightfully called themselves the Carthaginian empire because it's geographically close to the city of Carthage.
Roman doesn't mean Italian and the empire during late antiquity didn't even care much for the city, later rulers in the western half ruled from cities like Milan or Ravenna, but we don't call it the "Ravennan Empire".
The Byzantine Empire was the same empire established by Augustus, which was the Roman Empire. Constantinople was literally known as "New Rome". Being Roman isn't some measuring game where you measure the distance of your border from the city of Rome, you're simply making up a criteria out of thin air that's based on nothing besides whatever makes a German state that claimed to be Roman seem more Roman.

>>18323301
Reekshit despotate of constantinople were as """roman""" as the Ottomans

>>18320093
Brasil

>>18323338
No, we are the Venice of the tropics

>>18323125
>perfect sense
the difference is constantine translated the empire east when he was roman emperor. you didn't prove anything about HRE that makes slightest sense.

>>18322255
thx anon.

>>18323360
>goalpost moving
>translated
that became part of the problem too. At least the HRE preserved Latin, thereby becoming more legitimate in the eyes of its constituents
you still have no clue about this issue btw. There was no high court of Roman succession where the Greeks could have pressed their claims
now think long and hard before you get btfo (again)

>>18323703
NTA. But I am curious what shitty YouTube channel are you getting this from, because it's obvious you've never read a single book on the early middle ages

>>18323730
NTA but I am curious what shitty third world latrine do you come from? Because it is clear that you are not White.
And everything I said is historically accurate, go and check for yourself

>>18323779
Nothing you said was even coherent, how could anyone verify the accuracy of it.

>>18323703
Did you know when Alexios the IV was being used as a puppet for the based and trad Latins, they had no idea of Roman custom or law.
Boniface trotted up to the Theodosian walls proclaiming that their rightful lord has returned to reclaim his throne. Everyone in Constantinople laughed at him because he was a retard. This event happened after Alexios had explained to Bonifcace that the title of Roman emperor was not a hereditary right, but an office holder who was acclaimed by the people and senate of Rome. A direct continuation of the creation of the office since Augustus. Go ahead and find me the Roman law that states otherwise.

>>18320138
>>18320902
Contrarian faggots

>>18320138
This but unironically. Stalin was Caesar.

>>18323927
that's a reading comprehension issue on your part

>>18323953
>jumps from Leo III to the IV Crusade
ok but what are you trying to argue? That John of Brienne was less 'legitimate' than Andronikos the horrible? That's a discussion for another thread
My point is that late 8th century ERE had lost all legitimacy in the West as far as Latins were concerned

>>18324699
>8th century ERE had lost all legitimacy in the West
NTA, but this "loss of legitimacy" was rectroactively invented by westeners to justify pope's buttlicking of charlemagne. even after constantine "the great" and rome turning to christianity, pope never proclaimed the emperor in roman empire. so the very idea of pope holding the authority to declare roman emperor (with continuity to the old roman empire) is absurd.

>>18322255
I was disappointed by this book because for a book titled "The Romans" it was far more of a history of the political and military elite than a story of the Roman people. There was also essentially nothing about Roman literature which is such an incredibly important part of Roman civilization and its legacy.

>>18320115
>Islamic shithole

>>18320277
>>18320273
Joke aside, exiled Byzantine pretender did sold imperial crown to King Ferdinand II of Aragon and Queen Isabella I of Castile

>Trier, founded 30 BC
>Constantinople, founded 324

>>18325188
Byzantion already founded in 667BC.

>>18320093
finland

>>18320257
And barbarians sacked rome. What's your point?

>>18321985
There are some historians who argue that the roman empire ended in 1204. While the paleologian period was some rump state

>>18325473
that ere was obviously subordinated/inferior to hre and there's no further discussion needed.

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>>18320093
It's the Vatican, no contest. No other entity have guarded the Roman legacy as much as them.
Alternatively, San Marino. They even kept the "two consuls" system the roman cities had.

Didn’t Spain buy the “rights” and then Russia is technically like 3rd Rome if you follow the female bloodline which isn’t enough technically for succession iirc

And the. It’s America if you follow “Power of Empires” that trade hands.

>>18325007
His interview on Anthony Kaldellis podcast is how I found the book. So I knew going into it that it would be a political history with an overarching argument of political continuity of the Roman State. From that perspective, the book does an incredible job.

>>18323283
It actually is. It refers to the people of the Romulus clan of the Latin tribe. Anatolians are not really Romans. They were granted honorary status as Roman citizens, but that does not mean they were ever actually Roman. The conflation of the two is a political lie the real Romans told those they conquered so they would swallow the pill more easily. Honestly the Thracian/Anatolian obsession with the title is quite possibly one of the most pathetic displays ever put on in history.

>>18325476
It's probably correct, even the History of Byzantium podcast, you could see Robin just completely deflate after 1261.

>>18323301
"Roman empire" is a misnomer. Rome died with kingdom.

>>18327442
>Rome died with kingdom
You are joking, right? The Roman Kingdom was so weak and irrelevant that it could have died just like the rest of the Latin Kingdoms of that era.
They becoming a Republic was the thing that saved them from being conquered from someone else.

>>18327488
And yet it made "Rome" meaningless. The people became divorced from their demonym, and thus the people stopped existing as a real concept. They may as well have laid down and died. At least then there wouldn't be a walking corpse making a mockery of themselves.

>>18327442
The kingdom died when the Claudii family moved in from Sabina with 5000 men.

>>18324499
>>18324499
Litteraly true.
>STALIN KILLED MILLIONS OMG
Yeah retard, reforming a country and forcing evolution requires a lot of hard wrangling. Maybe octavian would be the better equivalent, the murders and political violence he conducted was equal if not worst to stalin (His proscriptions were actually comically evil) .
And guess what? Octavian succeed where the famously forgiving Ceasar was brutally murdered.

Its a doggy dog world and only communists understand this.

>>18327878
>Its a doggy dog world
Kek

>>18327849
Kinda based take. Tell me more.

>neither holy, nor roman, nor an empire
KWABOAT

>>18327615
What kind of weird cope is this? That's like saying that Americans, Canadians, Australians and so on might as well be dead once they stopped calling themselves English or British.

>>18324980
1. The coronation of Charlemagne was legal enough to be recognized and accepted by ERE emperor Michael Rangabe
2. It happened when the empire's throne was considered 'vacant' (due to Irene being a woman and a terrible ruler to boot)
3. It would have not mattered even if Michael didn't recognize it or if Irene had abdicated early, because the empire could no longer project the force it used to.
It was unusual for the pope to crown the Roman emperor, that I will concede. This has probably to do with the conscious and unconscious reforming at the Vatican that probably started with Gregory the Great and never really finished. In short, the popes had to figure it out themselves from the fall of the Heraclians to the Isaurian period and managed successfully to flip the house of Arnulf to their side and marshall the manpower needed to withstand the Lombards. But they were kept at arm's length by all the Carolingians until Louis the Pious.

>>18320093
"Byzantine Empire" WAS Rome and its successor is me :)

>>18328044
>The coronation of Charlemagne was legal enough to be recognized and accepted by ERE emperor Michael Rangabe
Micheal only recognised the 'emperor' part. He never recognised him as a Roman Emperor or his equal. He is effectively rejecting the claims of Charlemagne
>It happened when the empire's throne was considered 'vacant' (due to Irene being a woman and a terrible ruler to boot)
The Roman state is not merely a throne and nobody believed it to work as such. The state existed regardless of there being an emperor or not. Interregnums did exist.
>It was unusual for the pope to crown the Roman emperor
Coronations simply did not exist in the Roman West. It was something that actually started in the East under Leo II and it never actually conferred legitimacy or the position of emperor. The coronation was an afterthought from the actual acclimation.

>>18328044
Michael I Rangabe only recognized him as basileus, but not basileus ton Rhomaion. so (even ignoring the actual causes for michael's behavior) no, it was not any validation that pope can name roman emperors. cope. and the very idea of "empty roman throne" implies western feudalist structure of byzantine empire, which is incorrect.

>>18328049
The reekjeet despotate of constantinople and the peloponnese were as roman as the ottomans were mongol

>>18328091
You are literally a jeet?

>>18320115
>>18320138
Hasanabi please stop posting

>>18320093
It's a fun debate because hundreds of things succeeded the Roman Empire and not a single one of them actually lived up to the glory. Everything just got shittier. By the time an actual superior Empire rose everything was completely different.

>>18328254
>By the time an actual superior Empire rose
And that empire is...?

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>>18328277
You know very well which one it is