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>>18323377
These sculptures were found in the Templo Mayor presumably Tlaloc related but they lack the goggles.

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>>18323378
This isn't a depiction of Tlaloc but someone dressed like Tlaloc but the core symbology is the same

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>>18323382
This looks like a cursed photo a horror movie protagonist would find in a missing archaeology professor's desk. I wonder how many people died near this sculpture

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>this terrifies, confuses, enrages and arouses the iberian

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>>18323386
This is a classic depiction of Tlaloc but it doesn't seem to answer any questions. It looks like a guy wearing glasses but of course Mesoamericans didn't have glasses. I don't even know if they had glass
Honestly it doesn't even look like a real precolonial artifact

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Ehecatl seems to have a large red bird beak that reminds me of a pelican or a flamingo or something. This is a symbol that is inextricably linked to Ehecatl

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>>18323377
Oh and by the way the symbols to the right of Tlaloc are the glyph for quiyahuitl, rain. It's very interesting how standardized the glyphs are, even before the colonial era you can see the calendar glyphs on Aztec sculpture
I don't remember who said it but some friar said that the tlacuilos, the Nahua scribes could transcribe the lord's prayer in their phonetic script but it took a while and sucked to read

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>>18323394
aztecglyphs.wired-humanities.org
This is an excellent resource to understand the glyphs better but it's actually not even complete. There's a lot more placename glyphs in manuscripts that aren't even included + the calendar glyphs on precolonial sculptures like the Huey Teocalli

>>18323377
The Mesoamerican rain deity was usually associated with jaguars and reptiles & amphibians. I believe Tlaloc was originally a jaguar man that increasingly became more and more anthropomorphic until only the fangs remained, in the same way the Maya's equivalent, Chaac was originally a lizard-like guy with a snout and all until eventually getting anthropomorphized into just a dude with a big nose and fangs

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Tlaloc is Tlaloc, not every Aztec deity is strongly associated with a specific animal, most aren't.

That being said, yes, Tlaloc has some association with frogs as well as serpents, but it's not a particularly core part of his symbolism or iconography. Some argue that he's associated with Jaguars, and to a small degree he may be, but that seems to mostly be people projecting Jaguar associations earlier Mesoamerican rain gods had (like at Teotihuacan) to Tlaloc.

If you're unaware, and you seem to be based on your post in >>18323389, Tlaloc and other Mesoamerican rain gods like Chaac, Cocijo, Dzahui etc are all thought to be iconographic descendants of Olmec were-jaguar (at least that's one identification of them, not all researchers agree they're intended to be were jaguars) gods, where their furrowed brows, snarled lips, and twin fangs eventually evolved into the rows of fangs, prehensile or hooked nose, and circular "goggled" eyes seen in the later deities.

Currently reading a book on pre-columbus Americas and it's currently discussing the fall of the Mayan. Why did Kaan do it anons?

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Example of precolonial day glyphs on sculpture
>>18324189
Really good image. I didn't know the Tlaloc-werejaguar connection
Really fascinating to me how Mesoamerican cultural motifs seem to have permeated all cultures even if they spoke completely different languages

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>>18324199
The collapse of the Toltec Empire meant that Yax Mutul no longer had his ally, Tollan, to protect him, which Kaan took advantage of to conquer the Mayan lowlands

>>18324593
To be fair, I have seen a few Mayanists question how much of that kind of pan-Mesoamerican rain god iconography and symbolism is truly relevant to Chaac, but some Mayanists do support it

>>18325047
>Toltec Empire

didn't exist

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>>18325299
>>didn't exist
It existed. The Toltec empire had already collapsed by the Postclassic period, so what is thought to be the "Toltec Empire" (Tollan Xicocotitlan) is not the true Tollan, but one of the many cities that proclaimed themselves successors to the true Tollan (Teotihuacan), such as Cholula or Tenochtitlan. It seems that the true Tollan had dominion over the central highlands, the Maya lowlands with Tikal, and possibly also the Valley of Oaxaca with its dominion over Monte Alban.

>>18325587
The point is that what archeologists (used) to call the "Toltec Empire" as an expansive state across Central Mexico and that influenced the Yucatan headed by Tula didn't exist as a real political network

That doesn't mean that Tula wasn't the capital of a (much smaller) kingdom, or that Teotihuacan wasn't the head of it's own small empire, but those are separate things even if both were considered important cities/"Tollans", or maybe even if one or both were considered to be the same Tollan the Nahuas described ruling over the aforementioned empire that was in reality basically entirely mythical and never existed

Also I think you'd be hard pressed to find a researcher who thinks Teotihuacan ruled over Monte Alban. Had connections, sure, but not conquered or colonized the way some researchers think it did with Tikal etc in the Maya lowlands.

>>18325744
Teotihuacan= Tollan
Teotihuacan/Tollan dominated most of the central highlands aswell as the mayan lowlands through Tikal.
Tollan can only be Teotihuacan since its the only city that can fit such description nahuas gave.
Tollan Xicocotitlan, Tollan Cholula and Tollan Tenochtitlan took the name of Tollan to claim themselves as succesors of the original Tollan (Teotihuacan), similar to how the HRE did with the Roman Empire.

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>>18323583
this is a distinct possibility, based on artifacts it seems that human to Jaguar transformation was an important part of olmec religion, a weird guy with huge eyes and fangs could be an evolution of that iconography(though its worth mentioning most, but not all, olmec were jaguar sculptures has squinty eyes instead of big ones)

>>18324189
>>18324593
ah, I rushed ahead posting >>18326222 before I read these lol

>>18326177
That's speculation, and not one that most researchers would agree with.

The reality is likely there was never an actual Tollan and the label got retroactively applied to various ruins and then asserted by active important cities

>>18326228
In Nahua accounts, Tollan is described as a real ancient city, incredibly huge, unlike any other.
The only city that fits this description is Teotihuacan which was the most populous city mesoamerica ever had, with 100,000 - 200,000 inhabitants.

>>18323377
Why is this place and /lit/ so obsessed with the Mesoamericans all of the sudden?

>>18326303
Link the /lit/ threads please

Anyways there's one hyper obsessive anon who infodumps about Mesoamerica and has done so for years, his posting has rubbed off on other anons on /his/ at least

>>18326298
>The only city that fits this description
Irrelevant if the city thats described doesnt exist. It was certainly inspired by Teotihuacan, but its a mythical homeland like the garden of eden

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Eight Deer Jaguar claw really fascinates me, the guy conquered 94 cities. Really makes you wonder about all of the awesome stories and empires in that region that have been lost to history.

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What mesoamerican historical sites are worth visiting? Does Cholula have a cool museum or anything or just the pyramid?

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>>18326552
>Irrelevant if the city thats described doesnt exist
The point is that Tollan is a term that refers to a real city and empire (the one that inhabited what is now called Teotihuacan and dominated most of the central highlands, as well as the Mayan lowlands through Tikal, during the Classic period) and that, due to its importance and grandeur, continued to be remembered for generations through oral tradition, even after its collapse. It is true that it was mythologized, but that doesn't mean the term doesn't refer to a city and empire that actually existed (and which we know refers to what we currently know as "Teotihuacan" because of how it fits with the description of "Tollan" in the Nahua chronicles)

>>18323378
The smallpox crap is fake.

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>>18328070
Mayan cities:
The Puuc, Chenes, and Beec cities have beautiful architecture.
Classic mayan cities like Palenque, Tikal, and Tonina have rich history.
Copan and Ek Balam have very well preserved stucco structures.
Central Highlands:
Teotihuacan has impressive palaces, and the Pyramid of the Feathered Serpent is beautiful. Xochicalco features a nice relief of Quetzalcoatl, and Cacaxtla has excellent paintings.

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>>18328906
Monte Alban is also pretty cool. I theorize it was a castle tower, since it's in a strategic location that allowed them to see the whole valley.

>>18328925
Yeah thats what most archeologists agree on, it was the capital for whoever was ruling the valley

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>>18328070
Pretty much all the sites are the same. Some have more structures than others and some are more reconstructed/touristy than others. In the Yucatan and Chiapas you can literally climb on top of raw unstudied little stone chapels, completely unsupervised
If you want to see Mesoamerican artifacts you have to go to a prestigious museum like the Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City because they have permanent exhibitions or try your luck to find an American university that has a transient one. Most sites have very little artifacts to showcase because INAH likes to take the good stuff to Mexico City
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fVT9LexDYY
This is an excellent channel to see a lot of the small undocumented little known structures of Mesoamerican archaeology. Mexico is absolutely littered with small stone structures

>>18329463
>Pretty much all the sites are the same
If you care this little for history why are you on this board?