By being extremely slow when using their AIP, it's good enough for coastal defence but would be useless for long range power projection which is why they can't get any sales with countries that deploy globaly.

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>>64759169
>extremely slow
Current 212a can go for 8 knots on AIP. not fast, but not that slow.
next gen 212nfs/212cd will be equipped with pic related, a single module can put out 80kW, you can easily stack multiple of them into a 1-2 MW AIP system, that would give the boat a speed of 13-14 knots at 20-30 days, enough to stalk any SSN in combat area.
Even the likes of seawolf/virginia wont be racing at 25+ knots outside of transiting area

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>>64759157
*flies towards you*

>>64759195
There are simply too many reasons why your assumptions are straight up incorrect to get into, but to answer your question

>Why are they so stealthy

Because below say 5 knots, they are virtually silent. Add to that they are small, so hiding from surface sonar is easier given the right conditions.

>Tracking anything at 13-14 knots

You *might* be able to track an alpha, if he is close

>.t submariner

>>64759195
FC+Li-ion is probably the best combo for non-nuclear decent endurance.

>>64759283
>You *might* be able to track an alpha, if he is close
With a combo of towed array, flank array, bow array, sail array and micro-puffs (or equivalent system), plus good sensor fusion/processing, you can track a lot of things.

>>64759169
It's almost like... a submarine is a tool... and you use a different type of submarine for global power projection and a different type of submarine for pure defensive navy duties.............

>>64759283
>Because below say 5 knots, they are virtually silent.
Not sure about this, since that question isnt mine, but anyway, pretty much any well maintained boat would be dead silent at that borderline turtle's crawling speed.
>*might* be able to track an alpha
or just in coordination with other ASW assets. ASW isn't some wild west duel, you know that, right ? AIP boats enhanced endurance is very useful as a long range area denial asset

>>64759293
pretty sure LIB is meant for dashing maneuver, PEMFC always was the main underwater propulsion

>>64759157
It helps when your opponents are gimping themselves due to it being an exercise.

>>64759465
The exercise would be pointless if the surface commander were to issue a directive stating "German sub entering search area from S-SW". The idea is to detect it starting from a completely unknown position. In an actual combat situation, the enemy won't be courteous enough to announce their approach vector.

>>64759625
Sure. But the nature of exercises gives submarines, and specifically diesel submarines, a huge advantage. This goes double for international exercises where you might not want to show every card in your hand, even to allies

>>64759635
That's because those types of exercises are intended to replicate a surface action group or carrier battlegroup operating closer to the coast, where SSKs might be lurking. So some provision is given to the diesel boat, in order to actually reach the staging point.

>>64759635
The old type 206 doesn’t have much endurance in them, being traditional diesel electric, so their chance of catching a CSG in the open ocean, or even anywhere that isn’t right off the coast is slim.
That said, an exercise like this is still valuable, since the modern DE with AIP engine will likely be much faster with longer endurance overall, so you can’t rely on the same trick of waiting until the sub battery is fully exhausted, as the case with older DE anymore

>>64759322
Shhh there’s no room for nuance in 2001 + 25, just shit flinging

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>>64759919
If anything you and >>64759322 are the ones getting pissy, considering that the post you're responding to DID take into account the nuance that different subs are better for different tasks
>good enough for coastal defence but would be useless for long range power projection

>>64759169
>countries that deploy globally.
And how many countries is that ? SSN isn’t that exportable, since not many country need to cross an ocean to engage hostile force

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>>64759225
>flies tow-ACK!

>>64759225
>Unlike the preceding P-3, most versions of the P-8 lack a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD).
Hmm, is non-magnetic steel that common in modern subs that P-8 has to forfeit the MAD ?

>>64759465
>I-IT WAS ONLY AN EXERCISE!
love that cope

>>64759662
>sitting idle in shallow littoral waters is a totally real modus operandi for carrier group
Lol, lmao even

>>64761678
Literally the UK and France and neither of them really in a decade

>>64759302
You can’t stack all of those on a tiny SSK.

>>64759157
The subsailors just shut up when it's combat time. Duh.

>>64773528
Depends on how 'tiny' we're talking. Some 1500-ton greenwater tub? Likely no. A larger ~3500+/- ton bluewater capable AIP boat? There should be enough room for, if not all, at least a combo of several.

>>64769561
Well neither of them any more either. Since we're certainly not going to help Amerisharts when China goes for Taiwan and France has effectively been pushed out of Africa by Russia with Trump's help (oops did I just drop some classified intelligence that everyone knows anyway, silly me!) there's no real need for long range deployable subs. All of the places we might need to protect (Falklands, Belize etc.) are actual bases we could easily run a sub out of. We'll still use SSBNs for deterrence but yeah, we could replace our SSNs for twice the number of electro-diesel boats, give the middle finger to America and go all in on protecting Europe.

>>64769400
Passing through shallow waters when navigating half the seas on earth occurs with extreme regularity.

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206A could still be useful in the shallow north sea even in this day and age. 212 should actually be patrolling north atlantic more frequently

>>64759157
the whole point of the exercise was to let a sub that close, you really think they aren't blasting sonar from 6 different escort ships all the time?

>>64766487
Its more the P-8 isnt good at flying low enough for the MAD to work. P3s commonly would fly WIG with one engine feathered to save gas while using the MAD. P-8 can't really do that

>>64775847
they had a lot of trouble catching diesel subs in these exercises. it led to a realization in the navy that they need to update their ASW practices. at some point enemy intelligence will allow them to figure out locations and destinations and have a sub in the path of carrier group and if that happens the USN can't just pretend that losing a carrier is ok because the enemy submarine got lucky once

>>64775721
That old-school "pitbull" minisub design, with a lot of ready torpedo tubes, and no reloads, actually makes a lot of sense nowadays. We have a lot of module-based weapons which permanently lock out a torpedo tube (IDAS missile, Seaspider anti-torpedo torpedo, Northrop-Grumman's VLTWT, double-stacked Torped 47 etc).
So more tubes is better than fewer, even if you have to sacrifice reloads (realistically barely a couple in a sub that small, plus the weight/size of reloading equipment).

>>64775847
>the whole point of the exercise was to let a sub that close.
Purpose built littoral boats like u24 wasn’t meant to contest in the high seas, they were strictly for the baltic, also they don’t have AIP to begin with. The point was to test USN ASW capability against ultra quiet diesel electric boats.
Also, what make you think the small size of u24 didn’t play to its advantage against active sonar ?
212cd, despite being an oceanic boat, will be shaped on purpose to deflect active sonar, too.

>>64776154
The Kawasaki P-1 has a MAD boom, despite being a jet. Is it because it has 4 engines, as opposed to the Poseidon's 2?

>>64759157
Precision machined Stirling which makes near-zero noise during operation, special steel hull etc.
Nuclear submarines are much more noisy, but even non-AIP diesel electric subs are very dangerous on their home turfs.
Northern European nations only need subs to patrol the Baltic and North sea for Russians, so those subs are purpose built for that.

>>64782893
Stirling power output is low af, like 150kW, so you are stuck at like 5 knots, or ramping up LAB for high speed dashes, which only last for like an hour or two at most

>>64783009
Stirling is a dead-end technology, since it relies on mechanical principles, which can't be improved past a certain point.
High-efficiency fuel cells can now be made small enough to fit a large enough amount for 10+ knots "economic cruise". Coupled with Li-ions, should offer plenty underwater endurance at reasonable speeds.

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>>64783019
pretty sure japs give up on stirling since they prioritise high speed over long endurance, since JMSDF concerns center on chink activities around east china sea down to taiwan, so a rather small patrol area.

IMO, Japs should've swallowed their pride and start on license building TKMS subs instead, since chink are now fielding those mini reactor feeding stirling hybrid, and if we are to believe chink words, then the 4000t type 041 using 4x320kW stirling can keep the sub at 10-11 knots indefinitely, while japs sub has to cope at 5 knots just to conserve the battery. Very poor decision now that Zion Don has gone full demented, from just being a retard in his first term

>>64783060
>spicy rock kettle as heat source for Stirling
That would definitely sidestep the somewhat poor efficiency of Stirling engines.
Though this doesn't remove the noise/vibration (as mechanical systems, Stirlings inherently produce more of it compared to purely electrochemical systems like fuel cells) and heat plume issues.

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>>64759157
The stealthiest submarines, are the Kilo class

>>64783549
Lol

>>64783549
Silence, gook
> actually lost to chink, out of anyone
> 0-64 kdr
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_South_Reef_skirmish
But for your bait
> Kilo submerged endurance
> 400 nmi @ 3knots for 5.5 days travel
> 200 nmi @ 6 knots for 1.38 days travel
> 100 nmi @ 12 knots for 8.33 hours travel
> 50 nmi @ 24 knots for 2.08 hours tactical speed
Sorry gook, but that’s barely better than a type xxi, if not worse.
Soviet shitheap coffins will only get even more of you bugs killed, chink techs already evolved far beyond that.

>>64766487
More like sonobuoys got too good to bother with a system that needs you to fly low and slow directly overhead the sub to get a detection
If MAD makes a comeback (e.g SQUIDs), it'll be in mass-deployed expendable buoy form with sensor fusion, not a boom

>>64783695
>MAD makes a comeback
But they are still presented on ASW choppers ?
Otherwise, yeah, it doesn’t make sense to put MAD onto airborne assets without any hovering capability

>>64773673
>Since we're certainly not going to help Amerisharts when China goes for Taiwan and France has effectively been pushed out of Africa by Russia

how come russian posters always try to ride the coattails of china?

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>>64759157
The norf race always prevail

>>64783060
Japan was among the first to pioneer h2 powered vehicle, so fuel cell isn’t unknown tech to them.
They went with LIB simply it’s offering the best discharge power and energy density. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have been seeing chink EVs flooding car market for the last
few years

>>64783640
>3 Chinese frigates vs. 3 Vietnamese armed landing craft
>China still takes casualties

>>64759322
>a different type of submarine for global power projection
SSN alone cannot project gunboat diplomacy
Else, vatnik union/rusghanistan wouldn’t have stucked as a brown water navy since the 1800s

>>64793182
> most landslide chinese military accomplishment

>>64793823
>SSN alone cannon project gunboat diplomacy
Throw in some UUV's it can deploy or bring along as limpets that themselves have deployable drones or missile systems that can be a surprise in 'safe' waters. Imagine one of NG's manta ray subs with an AN/TWQ-1 Avenger but with those updated Lockmart Stinger missiles being built for the NGRSI program. 9km range isn't a LOT in the grand scheme of things but 9km range means 18km Diameter which means Roughly 150 at any point in time are needed to a thin but consistent line from Korea to Vietnam. With Taiwan in the middle anyway.
If you assume 40mil average cost per Manta Ray (which is the DARPA R&D cost of a single one) it'd cost about 12 billion to build 300 of them which gives you a bit of extra so you don't have to worry about a few dozen being down for repair breaking the noose.

>>64782893
From admiral McKee memoir, modern SSN pump is actually very quiet, even when running.
The actual source of noise will likely come from the turbine.
Still, its hard to compete in absolute quietness against DE boats when they rely only on batteries with no moving parts at all
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/bmt-ssgt-ship-submersible-gas-turbine.6976/post-705884

>>64798575

NTA, but isn’t force projection require you to be able to dictate actual maritime traffic of some sort, i.e. seizing any ship asset at will should be part of that ? I don’t see how a bunch of uuv and their ssn mothership would be able to do that, you still need surface combatants

>>64800205
Primary loop pumps are very quiet, and have been so for a relatively long time. The secondary loop tends to be noisier, along with the turbine itself (as you've noted).

>>64759169
How would one acquire his own personal SSBN ? Asking for a friend, obviously

>>64782893
Norway is closer to an arctic state than north sea

they're competent at coastal protection because they feared the soviet northern fleet in the cold war. AIP is very good at littoral combat, but good luck doing anything with it other than defense.

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>>64809655

Depending on what you want for “defense,” U-32 sailed all the way to Florida without snorkeling back in 2013. It can certainly provide an effective bastion of around 1.000nmi from any city or inland base, enough to keep any Russian naval asset out of range to launch cruise missiles. And that's just a 1500t boat meant to navigate the baltic, not a purpose-built deep sea submarine

>http://web.archive.org/web/20130828122046/seefahrer.blog.de/2013/03/

>Wir haben die längste Zeit am Stück, die je mit einem Uboot der Klasse 212 A getaucht verbracht wurde, wohlbehalten und gut gelaunt hinter uns gelassen. Zusätzlich hat die Besatzung die längste Strecke absolviert, die je ein Uboot der Deutschen Marine getaucht am Stück zurückgelegt hat. Ein doppelter Grund zur Freude und auch ein bisschen Stolz erfüllt uns. Besatzung Delta hat seit Auslaufen von Ponta Delgada 2.769,8 Seemeilen getaucht zurückgelegt.

>>64792098

Nope, LIB stored energy density is less than 1% of hydrogen, even if you take into account the average electrical efficiency of last gen BZM34 fuel cell on 212a is still about 60%.
JMSDF only has to patrol a relatively small region. Currently, they are more like an auxiliary force of the 3rd/7th fleet rather than a true blue water navy

>>64792098
Building a handful semi-prototype automotive fuel cells doesn't necessarily mean proficiency in building marine military grade ones.
The Japanese went with all-lithium because a) they're the cheapest range extension option; b) Stirling is a dead end (at least when not powered by a microreactor); c) they are unwilling (or economically unable) to put in the required R&D for the aforementioned marine military grade fuel cells (and don't want to license the technology from TK-HDW). Worst Koreans have both fuel cells and lithiums on their subs, because they have considerably fewer than the Japanese, so they can afford to splurge.

>>64798491
>>64793182
>The lone casualties is one wounded
>Viets got wiped out to the last man
>somehow this isn’t a great victory of the PLAN

>>64809778
>>64810013
AIP endurance is overblown. You won’t be getting much out of them, going full nuke is the only way.
Japanese subs also utilize NS-110 steel, on par with HY-156 in yield strength, they are clearly built for deep-ocean operation, unlike the baltic environment where germ subs thriving in

>>64815553
Sigh...
A 212A typically carries 2 tanks of LOX worth of 40t total. Each tank probably weight about 10t.
250t of metal hydride to carries 5t of hydrogen.
So the combined weight of the reactants onboard is about 315t, or about 21% of 212A standard dis.
Now 5t of hydrogen can produce about :
33.3kWh/kg x 5000kg x 60%(average BZM 34 efficiency) = 99.9 MWh
Count LAB in, the capacity onboard a 212a will easily exceed 100 MWh
Compare that to a 4200t Soryu/Taigei, i'll even put the battery weight percentage at 25% at full displacement just to give japs a rather overly favorable head start.

>168 Wh/kg × 1050t = 176.4 MWh
>High performance lithium-ion battery for space: energy density 168Wh/kg, 130(W)x50(D)x271(H)mm
https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2022/10/taigeis-libs-with-more-powerful.html

Though it's mentioned that actual operational battery model onboard either Taigei or Soryu will be of lower density, likely 140 Wh/kg.
So even with latest gen LIB and highly favorable propulsion ratio, Soryu/Taigei couldnt manage twice the stored energy onboard a 212a with LAB from early 2000s. And that's with a hull twice the displacement of 212a, so again, come up with higher power requirement to power the sub, too.
LIB is good due high discharge rate, so higher speed, but most of the time, you wont be needing more than 20 knots, especially in ASW-overinfested areas. Tactical speed between 10-15 knots for SSK will be highly desirable. Chinks 041 also utilizing mini reactor for 11-12 knots unlimited cruising.
Even SSN21 tactical speed might not exceed 20 knots, if the 57% improvement in tactical speed over 688i class quote is to be believed.
>https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1991/june/new-leader-pack

>>64783640
>The Soviets had a mutual defense treaty with Hanoi.
>The Soviet Union even refused Vietnam's proposal to send a water tanker for supplies.
Kek, vatnik cucked out and left their ‘allies’ to bite the dust, good old mir tradition

>>64759157
Its crazy hard to detect subs not just norden ones

>>64783549
>kilo are slient
>non-sub fag detected
Lmaoing @ u

>>64759157
Because the bluefor isn't allowed to turn on their active sonar

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>>64812353
Its not a Decisive Chinese Victory unless large-scale cannibalism is involved.

>>64759157
Doesn’t matter.
DE fags can’t into long range.
They cannot sprint from Connecticut to Arabian sea to interdict all the vital traffics.
DE is only for thirdies, who’s too poor to afford the ultimate projection tool.

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>>64759157
China submarines are better :^)

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>>64824338
>amerishart seething and coping about DE, episode #14369
There's no need to go the Middle East to bomb thirdies, if that's needed for amerisharts to feel better about themselves.
AIP boat currently have plenty of endurance from Bergen/Wilhelmshaven to patrol around Greenland. A few well placed DM2A5 might not be able to sink a carrier, but will be enough to send them limping back to the drydock with a hefty repair bill, and with some luck, maybe even a few Arleigh burke to the bottom.
That alone will be enough for zion don or any miga cultist to think twice before trying to mess thing up in the north.
There's a huge gap between bombing thirdies with total impunity and tangling with a near-peer that actually has tech and competence.

>>64826675
Also, most of the diabetes medicine is made in denmark. That's roughly 8.5 million americans dead in a few months.

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>>64806454
you

>>64806454
Travel to Russia. Some Russoid generals might be willing to sell those humpback rusting cans Delta.
Elon almost bought several ICBM back then. Doubt it changed much

>>64759225
>trying to hit what you don't see or necessarily even know about
Is that thing nuclear? If not, then good fucking luck.

>>64824344
What’s with the ijn flag ?

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>>64826696
In a country of 350 million, that would be doing all of us a favor. Most diabeticfags live on the public dole anyway, produce zero value, and continuously consume EMS and hospital resources with their non-compliant fat-fuck asses.

Tak, Danmark. Du har gjort os en stor tjeneste.

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>>64761678
Chink detected

>>64832931

>a-akhsually if I die, I win

The obesity rate in the us is like 40%, after a few months, it won’t be pretty across the states.

>>64812353
Implessive

>>64822952
They already got used to it.
Chairman Mao’s order