I don't. I think he has some good ideas, and some ideas which are terrible, the MKR is on the terrible side.

>>64805095
>RNG will give you a headshot, trust
>body... armor? that exists? lies, deception
So you understand that the point of the gun is to bypass body armor by fishing for headshots but you think the existence of body armor is a point against it? The MKR might be silly, but you're even more retarded than you think Kellgren is.

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>>64805095
Mostly because those coked-up designs are amusing as hell, really. Lighten up anon, life isn't that serious.

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>>64805095
>remind me again why we worship Kekgren as a hyperborean genius?

>>64805366
>So you understand that the point of the gun is to bypass body armor
the original design paper from the 70s makes no mention of armor

>>64805390
thx doc

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>>64805737
The M16 got adopted because:
>Armalite got raving reviews for the AR15 in commercial demonstrations and sales around Asia
>the AR15 also got glowing reviews when field tested by Americans in Project Agile, they thought it was better than the M14
>the M14 was STILL having big troubles with production after all this time and they needed new rifles
>airforce already started buying them to replace their M1 and M2 Carbines
That the initial fielding was fucked because of shortsightedness on the ammo and penny pinching over chrome doesn't delegitimize that, and the M16A1 simply resolved all of the problems, even exceeding the Colt 601s trialed in Project Agile.

Kellgren's MKR, meanwhile, is fucking retarded on paper.
>.22WMR necked down to long and lightweight 4.5mm projectiles made from cold rolled copper wire
>intended to make up for its inherent weakness entirely by volume of fire
>has to be bullpup because this cartridge needs all the barrel length it can bargain for
>being weak, the recoil is nothing so you can spray a lot, the action can be cheap blowback
>being rimfire, it's cheap so you can get more ammo for your money
>50rd disposable semi-circle mags
It's an extremely crackpot idea for an infantry rifle, like some sort of bizarre offshoot of the already pretty retarded S.P.I.W. guns.
It lacks most of the logic of the M16 and AKM.

>>64806062

The paper says it has a muzzle energy of about 800J. AI tells me the MP7 has about 500 something J of energy, Does it make this viable?

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>>64806234
source)

>>64805737
i honestly cant tall bait from honest retardation anymore

>>64805737
Yes. The paper being written evidence in the form of millions of combat reports of the greatest war ever fought in the history of mankind which all revealed that aiming and marksmanship is completely irrelevant as combat evidence shows that bullet wounds are distributed just as randomly as fragments from grenades and artillery, regardless of the soldiers' capabilities and that the only correlation to the outcome of firefights found is the number of rounds carried.

And as opposed to shooting range thinking, i.e. believing you will see the enemy in combat as clearly and uncamouflaged over hundreds of yards for dozens of seconds and as immobile as a paper target which leads to heavy, cumbersome weapons and calibers like the M1 Garand and .30-06.

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>>64806308
That's how I feel about 2026 society in general.

>>64805095
>math says you just gotta spam enough bullets and RNG will give you a headshot
Basically, yes. Try reading some operations research or medical tables instead of posting ignorant cope deniably phrased as humorous sarcasm out of insecurity.

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>>64806234
>>64806263
I do wonder, but there's a big disparity in the barrel lengths for the intended weapons.
Footpounds/joules don't paint a full picture, mind.

5.56x45mm NATO, M193 Ball:
>.224 caliber
>55gr FMJ lead bullet
>3200ft/s from a 20" barrel
>1300ft/lbs energy

5.56x45mm NATO, M855 / SS109 Ball:
>.224 caliber
>62gr FMJ lead bullet with steel core/tip
>3100ft/s from a 20" barrel
>1300ft/lbs energy

5.45x39mm, 7N6 Ball:
>.220 caliber
>53gr FMJ lead bullet with steel core
>2900ft/s from a 16" barrel
>1000ft/lbs energy
For a baseline comparison. AK74s and variants are mostly 16" barreled guns, the RPK74 support weapons get 3150ft/s from their longer 23" barrels. For infantry rifles, this really is the absolutely perfect balance of projectile weight, size, and speed.

4.5x23mm MKR:
>.17-18-ish caliber
>25gr solid copper bullet
>3200ft/s from a 25" barrel
>580ft/lbs energy

4.6x30mm H&K, DM11:
>.17-18-ish caliber
>31gr copper plated steel bullet
>2300ft/s from a 7" barrel
>380ft/lbs energy

4.6x30mm H&K, FMJ:
>.17-18-ish caliber
>42gr FMJ lead bullet
>2000ft/s from a 7" barrel
>358ft/lbs energy
The different barrel lengths here makes the comparison less obvious. Presumably, the 4.5mm MKR cartridge would see a dramatic loss of velocity from a short 7" barrel, while the 4.6mm H&K cartridges would see a tremendous boost from a really long 25" barrel. They're two very different weapons.

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>>64806316
It really didn't name marksmanship and aiming irrelevant, it just disproved the notion that A), marksmanship was more important than anything else, and B), that training regular riflemen to try to make shots to goddamn 800yds was at all useful or necessary.
Also proved that, C), having a lot of ammo and being able to sustain a good rate of fire as a whole is actually quite important in infantry combat. It's why we arrived at the balances we did to best cover the necessary and important use cases to the extents necessary.

Infantry rifles still have sights, in fact they ideally have an optic, because that's a very good advantage. Not just for aimed shots, but also for the rapid fire.
Grunts DO still aim, and they need to, it's just that they don't need to get the best ever prize shots, nor at extended ranges.

>>64806346
I think it'd be very reductionist to say that. You still need to try to make hits on the enemy, it's just that you still did good enough by hitting him in the arm or hip, even if you didn't strike his heart or brain. The rifle doesn't do it for you, and judging by how the Sig Spear is going, it sounds like it's still not going to for a long time further.
The Interdynamics MKR tries for a S.P.I.W. approach of quantity over quality, so to say, and while it's true you only need a moderate amount of range, power, and precision, the MKR in my opinion sacrifices way too much of those in favor of volume of fire.

>>64806430
I think what's missing from the discourse is a re-evaluation of the roles for small arms in the drone era. Not assault rifles or DMRs or all that, but LMGs and GPMGs. How do we adapt for an era where small unit combat gets smaller?
Traditionally the GPMG was the king and held at platoon level. Do we need to refocus on LMGs to provide the modern base of fire?

In that context guns like the MKR have new relevance. A modern LMG needs to provide a base of fire for the close assault.

>>64806430
>In these former studies it was found that, in combat, hits from bullets are incurred by the body at random: regional distribution of bullet hits was the same as for fragment missiles which, unlike the bullet, are not "aimed." Further, it was found that exposure was the chief factor for the distribution of hits from bullet and that aimed or directed fire does not influence the manner in which hits are sustained.
Hitchman, 1952

>>64806515
NTA yeah but 4.6mm ++p doesn't sound like good LMG material to me

>>64806522
The limiting factor of machineguns is weight: they need to carry X amount of ammo to give suppression for Y time. The reason machineguns are less effective under 100m is also weight: they're too bulky to use like a carbine.

Now, if FPVs render the legacy system of 6-7 guys lugging two machineguns and literal bags of ammunition around bad, but we still want a beltfed for fire superiority over carbines in that crucial sub-100m of assaulting a position when infantry are involved, we have to optimize for weight. Somehow we need beltfed levels of ammunition in a gun one man can use by himself, and ideally it shouldn't be super bulky by itself either. Long is still ok.

The MKR's drum mags are a good example of one solution.

>>64806545
>MKR's drum mags
Better yet. HEMISPHERE mags!!!!

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The correct answer of course is belt fed 7.62x25 as the standard infantry small arm.

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>>64806568
NGSW robbed us of this

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>>64805095
>outranged
4.5x26R trajectory is very close to M193 so what do mean "outranged".

>MP7
2250 FPS 0.141 G1 BC
>MKR
3300 FPS 0.240 G1 BC.
Ballistically MKR completely overmatches MP7. While having 2 times less recoil impulse (because muzzle brake), and like 8 times less free recoil energy.

>>64806062
>the action can be cheap blowback
MKR is locked breach tilting bolt long stroke gas operated. Straight blowback config could only got to about 2100 FPS, then case starts splitting.

>>64806568
7.62x25 has atrocious ballistic coefficient and velocity. 4.5x26R completely overmatches it in all terms: velocity, BC, recoil impulse, ammo weight.

>>64805563
Body armor exist in the year 2026 and your silly AKs and LMGs don't penetrate body armor.

>>64806716
at least the deliver more energy and might get to kill the soldier from backface deformation. This 4.6++p might genuiely plink off of armor if you give armor development one more generation of development or two

>>64806902
>5.56 might get to kill the soldier from backface deformation

>>64807039
well, they're coming out with 100k psi 5.56 now. Add a new penetrator or an improved aerodynamics bullet and that's a lot more energy

>>64807088
>more energy
Oh yea 2000 joules vs level IV plates rated vs 3600 joules AP. Buddy your mouse calibers just don't cut against plates. Armor won, assault rifles lost

>>64807186
>mouse calibers
kek good b8 m8

>>64807186
Level 4 is only rated against steel core, though. Things change when you look at tungsten or DU penetrators.

>>64807088
Funny how you wrote off entire world arsenal of 5.56 guns as military useless.

>>64808262
did i? all i said is that it's gonna have more energy and AP power now with higher pressures

>>64808392
Yeah talking about possibility that yet to happen.
When existing 5.56s don't have that and you are writing them off because body armor.

>>64808412
you misunderstood. I was writing off the MKR's ammo. 1800RPM x 0 DMG = 0 dps

>>64808455
Same for 5.56.
900RPM x 0 DMG = 0 dps

>>64806902
>might get to kill the soldier from backface deformation
0 recorded cases of this happening.

>>64806697
Boutique Swedish magic bullet from the 1980s is better for a specific purpose than legacy Soviet pistol round, copied in the 30s from one of the earliest auto pistol rounds ever... More shocking news at ten!

>>64806308
bait is honestly retarded

>>64805095
Small arms don't penetrate bodyarmor anyhow.
Kellgrens desugns would have given a brutal fire superiority to any equivalent squad and would have absolutely dominated any trench raiding or fighting within 100m

>>64808579
Also excellent for shooting down FPV drones, and you don't any special guns (shotguns) and ammo, every rifleman can participate effectively.

>>64806697
>>64808568
Would have been neat if they had loaded x25 with a looong light alloy bullet going over the COAL and getting better ballistics in return.

>>64808588
Sectional density would be too low.
You can neck down 7.62x25 to 4.5mm and put VLD bullet in it... and you will get 4.5x26R version in conventional case (and heavy). Approximately 6.5 grams round vs 3.6 grams round. Rifmire unironically is light weight case tech.

>>64806515
People are really overestimating how much drones are changing warfare.

>>64806521
Or, is it purely that "point, fire, and hope to hit" when you weren't engaging in suppressing fire was what people were actually doing and what was working?
That you wouldn't always hit, but you might, and that any kind of hit was useful? Fine aiming for specific body parts was never the best goal for an infantry rifleman, trying to get a hit somewhere on the target is what matters, and this still involves SOME marksmanship, to ensure that your bullets actually do head towards the direction of who you're trying to kill.

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>>64806697
7.6x252 can match or exceed it in muzzle energy, however that isn't the the issue here. The designs are 30 years apart and the LAD would be almost a order of magnitude easier to implement, it got down to if Stalin liked the guy or not.

LAD:
>Can be made with existing 1940's Soviet equipment
>Made with an existing round already being mass produced
>The current service rifle was capable of being converted into 7.62x25 via a new stock, sight and a Penderson type device that used existing SMG magazines
>Round size is a minor issue in this case, off set by belt vs magazine feed
>Kell's design was far more expensive to produce
>Copper projectiles? Far too expensive
>Can't swap barrels, is unsuited to sustained suppression fire
>With Bakelite instead of wood the LAD would have weighed less than a Nagant
I love Kells design, but the LAD was far more likely to be actually implemented. Kell made a neat gun, the LAD had an entire doctrine built around it. One whim of Stalin's and the world would be drowning in a hundred million of them and the M-16 would be a backpack fed 5.7 in response.

>>64808595
I'm really fascinated by the concept of taking a cheap as fuck absurdly mass producable smg like a PPS-43 and giving it some legs by necking it down and adding VLD bullet and perhaps extending the barrel a little.
Near assault rifle effectiveness with extremely simple WW2 technology.

>>64808852
>The current service rifle was capable of being converted into 7.62x25 via a new stock, sight and a Penderson type device that used existing SMG magazines
Uuh, hypothetically, but I think this would really not be worth the trouble when it's cheaper to just make a PPS-43 instead, and it's a lot more worth it to pursue the "high powered SMG" that was the AK47.
The concept of the Pedersen Device only barely made sense during WW1.

>Kell's design was far more expensive to produce
Probably not, actually. The MKR uses a plastic body and blowback action, it uses plastic magazines and rimfire cartridges. Being closed bolt would probably increase complexity and price some, but the LAD had a belt feed to add complexity to it.

>Copper projectiles? Far too expensive
Probably, though they were rolled from regular copper wire. They probably had awful performance too.

I don't think the LAD is a miracle weapon like you seem to think, but I think it's probably a better concept for a weapon, given that 7.62mm Tokarev is pretty well proven for close quarters.

>>64808859
Straight blowback has its own somewhat illogical limitations.
See >>64806263 In Kellgrens experiments 4.5x26R could be loaded up to 780m/s with bolt mass 0.8 kg, with higher velocity case head started to separate. PPsh has 0.6 kg bolt mass. Proportionally you should expect about 590 m/s. Not so hot comparing to already existing 7.62x25 still better due to much higher ballistic coefficient but surely not assault rifles territory.
Side note Sudaev made straight blow back 7.62x39 rifle in 40s, it had 1.2 kg bolt and 5 kg total weight.

>>64808917
>blowback action
It's tilting bolt locked action long stroke gas piston operated. Straight blowback mentioned by some authors regarding MKR is a fake news, misprint from his experiments >>64806263

>>64808923
Admittedly the blowback action is a limiting factor but a similar energy to compared to normal 7.62x25 should be possible with a necked down case and a bit longer barrel. Also, a centerfire case is more durable against case head separation compared to rimfire.

I was thinking that something like 2g smallbore bullet at 850m/s giving you ~700J should be just within the realm of possibility in a 4.5mm bore PPS-43.

>>64808917
The concept was that the Penderson type conversion would be transitional, everyone who already had SMGs would keep them. Otherwise just replace the AK with LADs and you get the idea.

As to complexity the LAD had 12 parts and plastic wasn't an option, there is a 30 year gap between them. Using existing ammo and tooling is a huge plus.

It isn't a miracle weapon but in a era without real body armor it isn't bad, especially as it could do single shots. I don't care if it is .22, if a squad is throwing out 10-15k rounds of aimed fire i am feeling damn well suppressed. It isn't a wonder weapon but it is viable even in the current era, would you rather fight a squad of guys with AKs or a squad with LADs?

Another factor is that organizationally if gives you alot more room for specialist weapons not to mention frees up manufacturing capacity: if everyone has a ULMG* LMGs become almost completely pointless.

*Ultra Light Machine Gun. That seems to be what we settled on for a belt fed pistol caliber machine gun the last time this came up.

>>64806263
Let me just clarify this: It's a rimfire spike made out of chopped and stamped copper wire? Besides the copper part that would be really easy and cheap to mass produce, but why chose copper?

Were lead alloys too heavy for his desired velocity? There has to be a cheap way to use a steel core and lead for this.

>>64809962
the bullet material is the least relevant part. it's the 1800 rpm micro caliber part that is more important conceptually.

>>64809875
LADs, because I could pretty easily outrange them.

>>64809962
A plain lead bullet wouldn't work, at high pressures and high velocity it would deform and leave residues inside the barrel.
Copper was probably the cheapest material and also it wouldn't need a metallic jacket (it's why modern copper bullets are a thing), penetration would be much better than lead also.

A steel bullet needs a driving band or jacket.

>>64809994
I was thinking in terms of cost, copper is expensive.
>>64809997
Anon, both weapons are lethal far beyond your ability to reliably engage an aimed target with or even at the maximum range the sights go to. The only time it would even matter would be wide open terrain (which almost never happens) and even then they have 3-4 times the ammo you do, the guy wanted 750-1000 rounds per soldier. So your plan is to stand in a open field at 250 meters calmly taking 250 meter aimed shots while dodging 10k rounds? At any range where range really matters with non pistol/PDW small arms you are both shooting at area targets in which case weight of fire is what matters. The Soviets did this with PPSh and guess what? They were firing 7.62x25 against Mausers which sure as hell 'out ranged' them.

In any situation (desert, steppes and so forth) where there are vast distances between soldiers and no cover small arms are almost irrelevant, a point which the LAD designer stressed many times in creating his use doctrine.

How about anywhere but a featureless open field? How are you going to do then?

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Interesting thing to point out: The LAD inventor made it clear that that was just a prototype and the finished version would be much more polished and light weight, considering one of the other small arm designs he is well known for half of /k/ would cut off one of their balls to get a LAD with the same design aesthetic:

>>64809962
Copper is an ideal bullet material thanks to its ductility, high density, and lubricity. Gold would be the best material but obviously that's infeasible as anything but a curiosity. Lead is cheap and easy to cast and slightly denser, but its softness makes it prone to fouling rifling and self destructing at high velocities.

For penetrators, osmium would probably be ideal but it's among the least common elements in the earth's crust. Tungsten is good and fairly common, uranium is even better and more common but there's red tape involved in mining and refining it.

For reference, copper and lead are both around 10 g/cm3, while the rest of the metals I mentioned are around 20.

>>64808673
>People are really overestimating how much drones are changing warfare.

The proliferation of PGMs down to squad level assets instead of requiring time to get on station, communication with supporting elements, and availability of tasking is huge. The ability to tell your squad's grenadier turned drone guy that you want a particular window 300m fragged and him being able to just PIKE it first try while remaining safely behind cover is huge and makes pinning targets with suppression even more important for longer distances while making actual gunfights only matter at even closer distances. There's very much a case to be made for carbine-PDW weapons that are light and optimized for volume of fire and building clearing to enable more weight to be spent on carrying PGMs by squadies. The actual problem with the PDW idea is that real world users repeatedly reported that since they're glorified pistol rounds, they suffered heavily from a failure to stop in CQB which wasn't observed with real rifle rounds, but that's something that could easily be addressed with modern bullet design, especially if you're not going to try and achieve the same AP properties that PDWs originally made so many compromises to try and reach.

>>64806062
>like some sort of bizarre offshoot of the already pretty retarded S.P.I.W. guns.
I've read a goofy ass paper from that era talking about doping tiny projectiles with neurotoxins to make up for their lack of terminal ballistics.

>>64805095
All the body armor being issued today can defeat every cartridge commonly fielded by any military today.
Even the Chinese plates you can buy off of ebay beat everything but that tungsten tipped 5.56 that I don't care to google the name of right now.

>>64810714
holy based

>>64810461
Getting 5.56 from inception to the field as quickly as they did was a good thing.
Fielding it in an inadequately tested rifle that was adopted without any real trials/competition was a bad thing. Even corruption, that got hundreds of men killed, I'd say.

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>>64810461
>Odd how EVERY. OTHER. WEAPON. Never had problems with the ball powder.
You don't know shit about fuck.
The stick vs ball powder thing isn't actually about the type of powder itself, it's just shorthand to refer to the controversy as the grain shape was a way to differentiate.
The original .223 Rem loading that would become M193 was originally loaded with IMR 4475 from individual lots due to variance between batches. So when the cartridge was mass produced the powder was changed to WC 846 which was consistent across lots. But WC 846 was slower so while chamber pressure wasn't increased, pressure at the gas port was. You should know what happens next. The weapon is driven harder, bolt carrier velocity increases, and you get more bolt bounce.
It does not matter if the powder is stick or ball, if you change a cartridge's loading to the point that port pressure changes, you will get malfunctions. The AR can handle ball powder just like every other weapon, you just can't fuck with a cartridge's pressure curve. The opposite also holds true, if you load a cartridge with faster powder that reduces port pressure, your rifle will be undergassed. Unless a rifle has a generous gas tuning system or the bolt cycle is designed to work with a huge variance in cartridge performance, it will have problems when you significantly change pressure characteristics.

>>64805095
gun looks fucking sexo

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>>64810461
>Completely different from infantrymen who are in the field everyday.
What a bunch of made up bullshit by you. Project Agile involved plenty of combat, including against enemy armor, which was were some of the complaints came from.
The anti-tank rifle grenades issued with the Colt 601 rifles was regarded as adequately effective by grunts, but the common complaint was that the recoil of firing one would make the receiver pins pop out and hinge the receivers open (which probably did damage).

That could probably have been resolved fully by redesigning the gasblock to add a cutoff, but that wasn't done.
That gap would eventually be filled by 40x46mm launchers and later the M72 LAW, which do those jobs better.

>cut the budget by 70% for the weapon and use bottom shelf manufacturers
Could have been avoided if the development itself wasn't so painfully drawn out and inefficient, that budget got slashed because of how much money had been put into it. The M14 is not significantly mechanically different from the M1, and just upgrading the M1 like the Italians did would have been much quicker and much cheaper to do.

>Still shit.
Definitely bullshit by you.

>Odd how EVERY. OTHER. WEAPON. Never had problems with the ball powder.
The other guy explains the problem in detail for you so I don't need to, you faggot.
Nevermind the M16A1s heavier recoil buffer helping resolve it for good.

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>>64810714
>talking about doping tiny projectiles with neurotoxins to make up for their lack of terminal ballistics
Operational Requirements for an Infantry Hand Weapon (1959) paper
There were suggestions to use toxins in bullets but tiny projectiles surely didn't have "lack of terminal ballistics". Their calculated lethality (five rounds salvo flechette rifle) had massive overmatch over M1 battle rifle.

P.S. Spam more small bullits Kellgren wins again...

>>64811081
All that wouldn't matter if the action was designed to handle more variance in loadings.
Do you think an AK gives a fuck if you overgas of undergas it a little? This sort of design philosophy should be given for a military weapon.

>>64810134
>space gun contour
>in wood
>35" of extra stock length, also crooked
>in bullpup
Why?

>>64806308
>>64806339
I've honestly just stopped interacting with anyone that comes across as a retard.
Genuine or not, retarded takes aren't worth your time.

>>64806234
No because MP7’s aren't a grunts gun

The new MIM steel cartridges go up to 100pksi. We can have +40% velocities for MP7-alikes and add a M855A1 type bullet to guarantee fragmentation over 1700fps.

>>64813850
https://youtu.be/n8q0_ch76Rk?si=HcyY-4j1PmgBLdiu

that and it seems that with different powder choices you can optimize the power out of short cartridges too

>>64813477
Pretty sure that's bakelite.

>>64814089
A 556x30 with M855A1 and 100kpsi would be based. Shortening the whole OAL and then add a suppressor.

>>64814157
Ok, sure. But what's with the droopy butt that hangs like nigger flaps? Why isn't that stock extra barrel length? If that much barrel length is not needed, why even bullpup it?

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>>64813850
EPR bullets already exist in 4.6 so the proof of concept is sound.

>>64814178
I think the ass is that long because it's apparently a delayed blowback action chambered in 7.62x39 and probably needs a crazy amount of bolt travel to decelerate the bolt. I'd assume the weird bend is so you can look down there sights while wearing a helmet, but maybe it has something to do with the feed system.

>>64813263
>Do you think an AK gives a fuck if you overgas of undergas it a little?
The AK is inherently overgassed so it doesn't choke on slightly weaker ammo.
But that design philosophy also has drawbacks and the AR won out in the end.

>>64813249
>Their calculated lethality (five rounds salvo flechette rifle) had massive overmatch over M1 battle rifle.
Not in practice they didn't, they were supremely inconsistent and unreliable.

>>64805441
>implying there are sheep in Africa

>>64814653
Point is proposal of toxins wasnit because of
>to make up for their lack of terminal ballistics
Your opinion on their lethality in the year 2026 has no effect on opinion of people who wrote this paper in 1959, they perceived this salvo rifle as 3 times more lethal comparing to M1 rifle even without toxins

>>64810461
>In Iraq Marines with ACOG's were scoring so many headshots that an investigation was launched to see if Marines were executing insurgents
That's an urban legend. The only mention for that is in an unsourced claim in a pulp magazine by a guy named Richard Venola. If you read what else this guy wrote you know it's a load of BS.

>>64806394
please add the British 4.5x45(?) to your comparison

>>64817041
Post it yourself?

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>>64817041
>>64817060

>>64817751
Can you not don't, retard-kun?

>>64817770
what?

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>>64810714

>>64818487
least sociopathic r&d guy

>>64817770
>>64818487
Yes, what about the poisoned bullets? That's not what he was asking about.

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>>64806394
>>64817041
>>64817751
Also makes me think of H&K's older 4.6mm rifle cartridge.

4.6x36mm H&K
>.18 caliber
>42gr to 54gr FMJ lead bullet ("Spoon Tipped")
>2800ft/s to 2600ft/s from a 15" barrel
>720ft/lbs to 790ft/lbs of energy

Does anyone know about some other keltec I think design where it proposes to have like 700 round magazines and i think was literally gas powered(hydrazine or something) or something? I swear I remember someone posting about that.

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>>64822067
https://mega.nz/file/iRNAEB7R#A-JhR7ooHWoRnlOSCPTK439kBZ8mH68blZ3RRJP9H70
pass komando

What is the actual argument against Kelgren's original paper? Nobody ever adopted it as a design philosophy so it can't be correct, right?

>>64826410
>What is the actual argument against Kelgren's original paper?
Big bullet is better see NGSW.

As for trials of MKR it lost against 5.56 with S109 bullet because OVERMATCH. 5.56 - effective range 1000 meters
>Standard M249
>Range: point target 600 meters; area target 800 meters; Provides suppressive fire to 1,000 meters
1000>300 meters. Overmatch!
Plus it's was US pushing for 5.56 in 70-80s for NATO. US > Sweden

>>64826463
Isn't the MKR meant to be an assault rifle though? It wouldn't be replacing the squad level automatic weapon, right? Or am I misunderstanding the intent.

>>64807186
>mouse caliber
I know one of you autistic fags must have a pic saved of 5.56 terminal ballistics vs. an actual mouse. Please post it.

>>64826410
Institutional inertia plus ignoring actual combat evidence in favor of long distance gun range bragging rights and nice Powerpoint presentations about overmatch.

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>>64826410
The only real argument for rimfire cartridges is that it's inexpensive. Kellgren's take would get you past things like the shitty heeled bullet crimping on .22LR, but it doesn't get you past the limited case strength, or fundamentally much less reliable priming. Rims in a box mag is never great, the semi-circle stacking probably helps things, but less rim is always better for box mags.

Using light copper projectiles to maintain a ~3000ft/s doesn't come free. Sure, you don't need to load as hot, but you're looking at half the projectile weight and energy of M193 Ball (>>64806394), and that's with a very long bullpup barrel. Footpounds/Joules don't ever tell you everything, but I think they help indicate where it falls short. It just does not hit as hard, and that simply isn't going to be an insignificant factor.
You're just not gonna see Kenosha style cavitation with a 25gr copper bullet at 3000ft/s, it would need more speed.

>>64826463
Not the same. Kellgren's approach is more or less rethreading SPIW's ground again, just somewhat more conservatively, but it's still not a worthwhile approach.

NGSW wants power and range at the cost of weight, rapid fire, and recoil control (in addition to weapon lifespan).
SPIW wants volume of fire at the cost of power, range, and reliability (in addition to weapon AND soldier lifespan).
Interdynamics MKR tries to go for volume of fire, and does it in a less deranged and more plausible manner, but still does so at the expense of power and reliability.

Fundamentally, 5.56mm and 5.45mm are just an EXTREMELY good balance of all the features a rifleman needs. Enough range and power to be very dependable in most realistic scenarios, while allowing for plenty of ammo and faint recoil. I really think that current materials sciences and chemistry has us at a plateau for infantry rifle cartridges, and that the only further developments would be for things like polymer casings and then projectile design.

>>64826671
Dishonest.

>>64826533
The MKR is supposed to be an infantry rifle, but it tries to make up for its shortcomings through sheer volume of fire, which IMO is not very practical.
Sure, you CAN shoot the target many more times if once isn't enough, but looking at Kenosha again, ONE round of M193 Ball was enough to drop each assailant basically immediately.

>>64826852
>I really think that current materials sciences and chemistry has us at a plateau for infantry rifle cartridges
Not really true. We could achieve 5.56 effective range with a smaller caliber, weight, and recoil cartridge by using a lighter VLD bullet, long barrel for efficient energy extraction from the load, and a rimfire case for weight savings.
Around half the weight and recoil cartridge, in a 20'' bullpup with standard 60 round magazines.
Completely doable with current technology, maybe not quite revolutionary but that depends on who you ask.

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>>64826852
>The only real argument for rimfire cartridges is that it's inexpensive
Wrong.
Primary argument for rifmire cartridge is it was lightweight case technology.
In his visionary paper >>64824582 Kellgren emphasized that future ammunition need to use lightweight case tech or caseleess
4.5x26R round weights 3.6 grams, 4.6×30mm round having approximately same capacity and pressure weights 6 grams (if adjusted for bullet weight). These are weigt savings on par if not more of the modern polymer lightweight case technology.
(Of course 4.5x26R costing 20% of 5.56 was handy too)

>or fundamentally much less reliable priming
Solved by firing pin design (MKR doesn't have separate firing pin, round is primed by entire extractor strike)

>Fundamentally, 5.56mm and 5.45mm are just an EXTREMELY good balance of all the features a rifleman needs.
Except their recoil is way too high to have valuable full automatic fire from rifle.
MKR 4.5x26R group size burst /full auto standing of hand was 27/54 MOA, MKR 5.56 version had 180/320 MOA groups.

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>>64826852
>. Kellgren's approach is more or less rethreading SPIW's ground again, just somewhat more conservatively, but it's still not a worthwhile approach.
Should be mentioned that SPIW guns never achieved level of recoil MKR had.
MKR had 1 Ns recoil impulse
XM 645 approximately 2.6 Ns
Steyer ACR about 2.6 Ns too.

And effect of recoil on burst accuracy is very substantial even at these small recoil levels. MKR carbine had 2.33 Ns recoil impulse (because no muzzle brake). Its standing of hand burst/full auto groups were 45/90 MOA.

>>64806515
>Traditionally the GPMG was the king and held at platoon level. Do we need to refocus on LMGs to provide the modern base of fire?
With "drone ammo" which seems to run the gammut of ratshot to proximity shells, the GPMG and LMG still have that role especially if they carry an antidrone belt of ammo.

There's also the portable drone jammers which do work, but that's a ECM/ECCM fight where noncommercial drone is not as easy to defeat compared to a known COTS DJI running consumer software.

The future is going to be computer aimed machine gun or laser turrets. This includes smart scopes where the scope's software gives the soldier an aimpoint and chooses the microsecond to pull the trigger for the highest probability hit.

>>64826463
poor bait

>>64827579
>MKR 4.5x26R group size burst /full auto standing of hand was 27/54 MOA
source?

>>64827864
>The future is going to be computer aimed machine gun or laser turrets
These are vehicle weapons not hand held infantry weapons.

>>64826852
I am amazed that .22LR hangs on so hard. It is actually more expensive to make a rimmed cartridge than an equivalent centerfire.

>>64805095
>yeah let's send the boys to fight armies with AK's and medium machine guns with MP7s
Retard kun, the guys with MP7s are the driver, cooks and mechanics of the army, not the ones on the frontline.

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>>64827864
official "future" ;list:

-integrated electronics on computers to manage ammo counters, programmable fire rates and burst lengths, internal power source for powered attachments, smart heat management
-electronic primers as required by previous point
-stronger powders + higher pressure nas3 cases + very aerodynamic bullets = Uzi's with rifle performance at 200m
-smart sights and computerized aiming
-featherweight SAW's with constant recoil mechanisms
-new generation 3d printed suppressors with superior performance and/or forced air cooling to mitigate heat signature

>>64827913
if humanoid robots become a big thing, it's a no brainer to turn them into robots. You train them on SOF motion capture/footage/brain scan? and you can mass produce tier 1 operators by the millions. Since these bots don't have eyes, they'll aim with linked sensors mounted on the gun like in HALO.

>>64827919
missed the point, which was that the MKR is a glorified MP7

>>64827926
>integrated electronics on computers
on weapons****** i'm dumb

>>64827926
>if humanoid robots become a big thing, it's a no brainer to turn them into robots
INTO SOLDIERS*** my god i'm tarded

>>64827913
Smart scopes are man portable. They already exist.

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>>64827917

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>>64827927
>missed the point, which was that the MKR is a glorified MP7
case capacity wise they are the same. Ballistically MKR overmatches MP7 completely while having 2.5 less recoil and like 3-4 times less automatic fire groups sizes (dont have data for MP7 but its expected)

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>>64827169
You will not get 5.56mm tier performance with a 25gr bullet at 3000ft/s, you need far more speed than that to make up for less than half the projectile weight.

>>64827579
>Primary argument for rifmire cartridge is it was lightweight case technology.
That is MUCH better achieved with a modern polymer centerfire case, which can actually bear worthwhile pressure.

>In his visionary paper
Hoooh boy.

>Kellgren emphasized that future ammunition need to use lightweight case tech or caseless
Because that was a big meme at the time, largely because of SPIW and the continuation via ACR. Trying to minmax the existing SCHV concept further by going for .17/.18 caliber micro projectiles and a high rate of fire to make up for the loss in performance and to increase hit probability was the idea, but this never really worked out in a satisfying manner from any of these angles.

Better financed and more educated groups than Kellgren and Interdynamics had numerous better ideas than the MKR, and none of them were really any good either.

>Solved by firing pin design
It really isn't, even with modern centrifuged rimfire ammunition, you WILL get a probability of an empty spot of rim due to the fact that rough handling can make the dried priming compound crack and break. You can improve odds, but centerfire is just infinitely more practical.

>Except their recoil is way too high to have valuable full automatic fire from rifle.
Beyond absurd claim, I'm supposed to take this seriously? 5.56mm has inherently very light recoil which is tamed yet further by the fully in-line design on weapons like the AR15, and AKs can at the least be adapted to approach this (brake and adjustable piston/gasblock, etc).

>>64828433
>You will not get 5.56mm tier performance with a 25gr bullet at 3000ft/s, you need far more speed than that to make up for less than half the projectile weight.
Yeah okay maybe not exactly half recoil but picture this.
40gr 4mm bullet with a BC G1 of 0.6 with a 1000 m/s muzzle velocity.
Now does it require a long barrel? yes certainly, does it look like a rocket? indeed. But it also matches M855 energy at 400 meters while only having 2/3 of the recoil.

>>64828433
>That is MUCH better achieved with a modern polymer centerfire case, which can actually bear worthwhile pressure.
Possibly. Still curious how such primitive tech achieved massive weight savings that barely can be improved.
3.6 grams round. That is actually insane.

>Because that was a big meme at the time, largely because of SPIW
SPIW rifles used conventional case cases.

>Better financed and more educated groups than Kellgren and Interdynamics had numerous better ideas than the MKR
None of them achieved parameters of the MKR. Take for example Steyr ACR, 2.5 times more recoil, 50% heaver ammo, 24 rds (lol) magazine vs 50 rds. Total MKR supremacy.


>Beyond absurd claim, I'm supposed to take this seriously? 5.56mm has inherently very light recoil
See
>MKR 4.5x26R group size burst /full auto standing of hand was 27/54 MOA, MKR 5.56 version had 180/320 MOA groups.
US army M4 manual straight up teaches that beyond 25 meters full auto is useless and semi automatic fire is better by every metric.
"Intermediate rounds enabling effective automatic fire from rifle" is largest fraud in the smalls arms industry in 20th century.

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>>64827651
>Should be mentioned that SPIW guns never achieved level of recoil MKR had.
Yeah, and I wonder why that is?
You can compare me to people like Jeff Cooper crying about how undepowered 5.56x45mm and 7.62x39mm are, but that would be grossly reductionist at best.

>And effect of recoil on burst accuracy is very substantial even at these small recoil levels
How long of a burst do you need and how tight does it need to be? Do you need to be doing constant full-auto salvos and bursts?
The G11 squeezed in three round salvos before the shooter could be affected by the subsequent (very hefty) recoil impulse, and that didn't do it enough favors to be worthwhile.

>>64827917
Because .22LR literally only needs to be a small and mild cartridge, and you can save money by doing a thin and flimsy single component casing with no separate primer component, also using a shitty heeled bullet without a jacket.
Everything about .22LR, especially today, orients it towards being able to be done incredibly cheaply. You don't need to machine out a rim like on a centerfire rimmed case, you can just shape the 'cup' to make a rim shape (which is then hollow, and fits priming compound).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rCZHG_eEak

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>>64828531
>Yeah, and I wonder why that is?
Mostly because their designers were stupid and their designs mediocre.
Gun designed around automatic fire and not having aggressive muzzle brake is a war crime.

>>64828550
>automatic fire
>24 round magazines
>no muzzle brake
>bullpup ie. bad recoil control
you can see that they weren't even trying

>>64828567
Give them a break, small recently founded indie company with no prior experience in the small arms design.

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>>64828504
>But it also matches M855 energy at 400 meters while only having 2/3 of the recoil.
Matches energy does not mean matches it ballistically.

>SPIW rifles used conventional case cases.
SPIW and ACR, though part of the idea with SPIW was to have more ammo on you because the ammunition was lighter. A saboted flechette weighs less than an FMJ bullet.

>Steyr ACR
It was also a jamomatic piece of shit, but the Steyr ACR was not the only contestant. Using a 10gr flechette in the 4000ft/s range, that still did not make up for dicey and unreliable terminal ballistics, or easy deflection (mind, not helped by trying to make the hazardous sabots work consistently).
The Interdynamics MKR would be better than the Steyr ACR, but that's a low bar to clear.

>>64828550
Recoil control was not its biggest problem.

>>64828567
Bullpup layouts don't really have much bearing on recoil control.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ltga6RhDjc
The Steyr ACR was probably the worst entrant, but it has much less recoil than the G11's hyperburst, it simply did not need a muzzlebrake or non-bullpup layout.

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>>64828595
>Bullpup layouts don't really have much bearing on recoil control.
The rifle weight distribution is extremely important for recoil control. This is literally discussed in the article that is the topic of this thread.

>>64828595
>Recoil control was not its biggest problem
See >>64827651
Going from 1 Ns recoil impulse to 2.3 Ns nearly doubles burst and full auto dispersion.

>>64828617
>it simply did not need a muzzlebrake
Objectively wrong >>64827651

>>64828617
>only shows single shots

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>>64828620
Balance can absolutely be poor in a bullpup, and that can work against recoil control, but that does not mean that all bullpups are poorly balanced, even Kellgren's own RFB (a .308Win rifle), is actually pretty well balanced.

>>64828623
That doesn't really say anything in a real world practical sense.

>>64828626
The Steyr ACR was notoriously mechanically unreliable, its action had constant problems with jamming, I assume that they just didn't have any useful footage of the burst from those demonstrations.

However, compare to the hefty recoil impulse of the H&K G11 firing off three 50gr projectiles going 3000ft/s, at a 2100rpm cyclic rate, to the Steyr ACR (trying) to fire three 10gr projectiles going 4700ft/s (some sources say 4900ft/s), but at a 1200rpm cyclic rate.
That's an incredibly much faster muzzle velocity, but still a fraction of the projectile weight and much lower cyclic rate.

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>>64828625
>>64828567
>>64828550
The Steyr ACR actually DOES have a muzzlebrake.

>>64828687
>That doesn't really say anything in a real world practical sense
>27 MOA group size
>45 MOA group size
>no real world practical sense
Absurd claim you made

>>64828721
Do you have literally anything else to cite beyond Kellgren's paper?

>>64828687
Balance? what balance? The distribution of mass is a physical fact, not a matter of subjective taste. The further away you distribute the masses from the pivot point (your shoulder) the greater the resistance to movement will be (moment of inertia). This is very basic engineering. A bullpup setup with similar components will ALWAYS have a smaller moment of inertia leading to worse recoil control.

>>64828725
Do you?

>>64828740
Kellgren writes a lot of stuff which sounds impressive in his paper, but that doesn't make his theory actually valid in itself, he's most likely the only person who has ever done any testing worth speaking off on his concept.

>>64828433
>Better financed and more educated groups than Kellgren and Interdynamics had numerous better ideas than the MKR
please share! the only other i know is ARES and their cased telescoped tracer aimed bullet hose

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>>64828851
H&K, primarily, through the G11 and the HK36.
Both flawed, but both fundamentally better performing with single shots.

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>>64805095
>>yeah let's send the boys to fight armies with AK's and medium machine guns with MP7s
Are we talking about this MP7?

>>64828868
ah, this piece of shit. Publicly execute however came up with that moronic reloading mechanism. It's also UGLY.

>>64828880
no. I was hyperbolic suggesting that the MKR (picrel) is a glorified MP7.

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>>64828851
Mediocre low effort gun again.
>No muzzle brake on auto gun war crime again.
>Recoil impulse about 3 Ns, 3 times of MKR.
>7 grams round vs 3.6 grams
>Pathetic stuby bullet with atrocious form factor and ballistic coefficient
Do you even bullet hose? What is good about it besides polymer telescoping case meme that is utterly failing in weight savings against rifmire?

>>64828868
Again let's make gun designed around automatic fire but forget about muzzle brake... They even made stock higher than muzzle supposedly to reduce muzzle club... but muzzle brake? Crickets.
And again short and stubby bad form factor bullet. Do German engineers even study ballistic science?

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>>64828883
Certainly is no beauty, and the reloading mechanism is quite absurd (like a big plastic 30rd en-bloc clip, though the earlier version used a detachable mag), and the spoon tipped bullet ultimately worked against it, but it's at least a 42gr to 50gr FMJ bullet doing 2600ft/s to 2800ft/s, which is something to work with.

>>64828909
The HK36 supposedly had pretty easy to control recoil, which I'm willing to believe given how in-line the action is and how it was loaded lighter.

The projectile is actually a gimmick in itself, a so called 'spoon tip,' and the idea was that the rifle would have an extremely flat trajectory within 300m, but that the uneven bullet would quickly destabilize and lose speed after that, as a way to reduce potential collateral damage.
A very weird, and very German idea, and it wounded through the bullet tumbling, supposedly not badly either, but this made it really awful against armor, soundly outclassed by M855/SS109 in that department.

I really don't think that the HK36 rifle in itself had all that much promise, nor the gimmick bullet, but I think that the cartridge and loading in itself demonstrates something potentially useful. Probably about as small as you could make an intermediate rifle cartridge and still maybe have something good.
Taking the 4.6x36mm into the future, a 50gr OTM projectile with a steel core, a polymer case, and some kind of gas operated bullpup rifle with enough barrel length to perhaps give it another +100-200ft/s of muzzle velocity, it could be something. Whether or not that would be better or as good as 5.56x45mm is another question.

>>64805390
Am I normal seeing 2 guns fucking? Is my brain broken?

>>64810374
>Gold bullets
Could happen if we start mining asteroids oddly enough.
Do solid copper bullets work as well for fragmentation as lead? Smaller calibres like 5.56 get a lot of their lethality from breaking up violently and cutting multiple wound channels. Would gold?

>>64830226
M855A1 is steel-copper bullet

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>>64818504
>>64818487
>>64810714
>Guns that shoot splinters of neuro toxins
But for a twist of fate we could have been the America our enemies think we are.....

*sigh*

>>64826583
if you could get a 5.56 bullet to successfully dump all its energy in the space of a mouse’s body i don’t think the mouse would exist anymore lol

>>64805095
Basically, yes)))
modern boron steel cases have 140kpsi yield strength, so sticking with a generous safety margin, we could spam 99kpsi 4.6/5.7 size cartridges in 40 round MP7 mags as the standard infantry weapon with the same ballistics as an M4, but from the MP7 length barrel

>>64826857
>looking at Kenosha again, ONE round of M193 Ball was enough to drop each assailant basically immediately
Not really. 2 out of 4 were "taken out" with a single shot, but only 1 of those was actually immediately incapacitated. The other one was a psychological stop from getting his arm blown up. That leaves 2 more, one of whom was missed entirely, and the other who took 4 rounds

>>64831347
That would be just, insanely loud.

>>64831347
I need 120kpsi for reasons.

>>64831347
please apply for a job at kektek

>>64831429
>The other one was a psychological stop from getting his arm blown up.
Having your arm blown up is an incapacitating injury.

>>64830226
Solid copper holds together better than lead, which is actually a good thing. Fragmentation leads to poor penetration, what you want is yawing or expansion with deep penetration and minimal loss of mass.

>>64832229
Tell me you're a fuddy-ass hunter without telling me you're a fuddy-ass hunter

>>64832275
Fudds love lead cores and soft points, what the fuck are you on about, nigger?

>>64832229
If I wanted penetration above all else I would look at cartoon bullshit like 6.5mm CBT, you also want cavitation or/and fragmentation. Penetration is great, but sacrificing a bit of penetration for vastly superior wounding is more than worth it.

Icepicking is a thing.

>>64832910
>Icepicking is a thing.
Maybe you should have read my post before responding.

>>64832918
This is an SCHV thread unc, we're not talking about your .45-70 levergat or your .300 Win Mag thousand-yard durr gun. Expansion is shite on anything smaller than .30 and yaw is both unreliable and kind of sucks anyways. The best terminal effect for small bullets being used on human targets is to fragment.

>>64832944
5.56 and 5.45 are both infamous for being able to shoot a guy in the leg and have the bullet come out his arm. Yaw is what makes SCHV cartridges so effective.

>>64805095
Mp7 is guaranteed kill with 2 headshots. You just need some practice with the spray pattern.

>>64832961
Dumbshit zigger cope lore
Yaw sux

>>64832961
5.56 is famous for fucking exploding in flesh.

>Another thread on magical prototype bullshit which "totally would have worked if it wasn't for actually good designs using underhanded tactics!"

It's all so tiresome.

>>64833023
Ukies and Ruskies seem to be cutting each other down with 5.45mm pretty damn consistently from what I see.

>>64833402
what refutation of the design logic do you provide?

>>64833663
>people die when shot with assault rifles from breathing distance
Woahh

>>64834271
>he missed the memo when ballistic plates made all calibers below 6.8x51 Furious Sig obsolete

>>64805366
>bypass body armor by fishing for headshots
VVE MVST RETVRN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si7Q6BCPBYg

>>64832294
they also love those Barnes all-copper HPs

>>64834132
That's not how it works, the onus is on you to prove your claims, which goes beyond just citing Kellgren's old notes.

>>64834776
What is wrong with points stated by Kellgren?

>>64834781
What makes them right?

>>64834792
So you agree them?
If don't , then what is your objections?

>>64834808
>rimfire
>25gr projectile

>>64834832
What's wrong with those?

>>64834900
Unreliable priming, and not going fast enough to make up for the projectile weight.

>>64835011
Rimfire priming is reliable. Especially if you have a firing pin that strikes more than one spot on the ring.
Rimfire priming is only a problem with shitty pistols that have weak hammers that can't properly crush the rim.
>not going fast enough
Maybe idk

>>64835028
>Rimfire priming is reliable.
No, it fucking isn't. The priming compound is less protected and secure than a self-contained unit primer. The priming compound can break from rough handling and leave you striking an empty rim, even on centrifuged cases.

>Especially if you have a firing pin that strikes more than one spot on the ring.
And when both spots are duds?

>>64834832
the rimfire aspect of the MKR is not the most important. What matters more is the general idea of the micro caliber bullet hose

>>64835011
Rimfire is terrible. The speed is fine though - Kelgren was thinking in the era before fragmentation dynamics were properly understood, and he wasn't trying for any terminal ballistics at all beyond the bare minimum of poking a hole like an icepick (though at smokeless powder rifle velocities it would still exhibit shattering of bone and certain cavitation effects). Modern understanding of terminal ballistics only makes his concept stronger. Instead of settling for the icepick sewing machine we can have microbullets which reliably fragment.

>>64835199
an issue though is that he only accounted for 3mm steel helmet as armor. Modern plates might genuinely make 4.5mm plink off.

I for one think it would have been a neat gun and it probably would have worked pretty well, but it'd probably never be adopted by anyone but special forces for just being too weird. Should have adopted a small amount for field testing at least I think.

>>64835251
It's an irrelevant objection. 556 and 545 don't pen armor. 762 and 6.5 creed don't either. and they have no problems in war, the less recoil the better. Kelgren's take's application to armor is simple: if everyone gets arbitrarily invincible super plates, who is going to do better?
The lad with a GM6 Lynx getting his 50 BMG cockblocked by Adept Armor's latest meme?
Or the chap spraying fifteen icepicks through your cock and eyeballs easy as pissing on a tree?

>>64835358
what about barrier defeat?

Looks cool, even in 5.56

>>64835455
>increasingly desperate fudd
A 50 BMG isn't shooting through reinforced concrete walls either. Face it, expert ballistics professionals, combat experienced troops, and autistic firearms hobbyists have all agreed on the SCHV gospel of self-loading military rifles since before we born. Objections to the microcaliber meta come from a dwindling stock of fudds promulgating Boer War era myths. Obviously Kelgren's MKR wasn't perfect, but it's an example of the direction we should be moving.

>>64805095
>why we worship Kekgren as a hyperborean genius? This is ass
We worship him? Stop splitting

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>>64807343
steel core .30-06 M2AP, which has a far larger core than any 5.56 penetrator tungsten or otherwise.
If you want to get hyper-technical, Level IV plates that use a pure boron carbide strike face CAN be penetrated by M995 and other tungsten 5.56 out of a 20" barrel. This was a problem with early ESAPIs until they switched to a boron carbide - silicon carbide hybrid ceramic with Revision G onward of the ESAPI requirements.
Ceramics using other ceramics (Aluminum Oxide or Silicon Carbide) do not really have this issue. Tungsten 5.56 is, to them, a III+ threat. See how M80A1, which is worse than .30-06 M2AP by a long shot, penetrates the RMA XRT (which like most RMAs is actually pretty shit) when RUAG 5.56 tungsten core does not. This is an aluminum oxide cheapo plate backed by fiberglass.

>>64835455
There's a lot of barrier-blind loadings for 5.56 at least. Actually, it'd probably be easier to develop barrier-blind loads for smaller bore since you can get higher sectional density for the same bullet weight.
If I was going to go down the .17 cal/4.5mm route I'd keep the cartridge centrefire and the same OAL as 5.56x45, but longer bullets. Maybe 55grn or 62grn (assuming lead-core, would be a bit lighter if you wanted copper solids). Not sure how much you could get away with slimming the case down while still getting acceptable velocity, I wanna say you could go down to 0.22" (so basically a really long .17 HMR except centrefire), but realistically might need to be somewhere between that and whatever diameter 5.56 is (can't remember off the cuff).
Question is how much more ammo do you actually get to carry for all this? Is it worth the trouble? Maybe with improved followers it could be a thing, I remember there was a company with a special AR-15 5.56 mag which was a +2 in the same size as any other polymer mag, that's not much but could be a +4 with a slimmer cartridge? Feels iffy though. Would need to test.

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>>64835199
>all beyond the bare minimum of poking a hole like an icepick
Obviously such bullet would tumble more readily than 5.56 bullets

>>64835905
You'll need a much hotter load to get the same muzzle energy out of a 62gr .17 cal as a 62gr .22 cal. Consider that when you have a certain peak pressure in the case, say 62,000 pounds per square inch, each of those bullets has a certain base area in square inches, meaning that the smaller bullet has fewer pounds of force pushing on it, as well as a larger bearing surface against the barrel due to the square-cube law.

Unless you're okay with substantially lower velocities, you'll probably end up with an even larger case (to try and maintain peak pressure for a longer duration) and not a smaller one.

>>64835925
That's correct, yes. Most anons are too retarded to understand internal ballistics which is why I didn't touch on it. I don't think lower velocity would be acceptable. Need either a longer barrel or a thicker case to load hotter, possibly both. Yet another consideration for the "is it really worth it" question.

>>64835939 (Me)
Also barrel life will be really really really bad if that wasn't obvious

>>64835925
>You'll need a much hotter load to get the same muzzle energy out of a 62gr .17 cal as a 62gr .22 cal.
62gr bullet aren't viable to begin with because recoil would be to high. Central point of Kellgren's design is to keep recoil at about 1 Ns level (recoil of the 22lr without muzzle brake).
https://youtube.com/shorts/f6P87CvjCDo

>>64835978
Limiting yourself to 1 Ns recoil impulse severely limits what you can do ballistically, even accounting for a large muzzle brake. It's a non-starter for any combat-suitable long arm.

>>64836013
Recoil affects automatic fire dispersion nearly lineary see posts ITT
1 Ns - 27/54 MOA
2.33 Ns - 45/90 MOA
6 Ns 180/320 MOA
For handheld automatic gun less is more. You are trapped in semi automatic guns mindset "big bullit is better".
(don't forget that machine guns are banned).

>>64836041
That's great but you're crazy if you think I'm taking someting with .22 LR energy into battle, lol
This isn't a "big boolit more better" mentality, it's a "I need to actually incapacitate the guy I'm shooting" mentality. Having a longer minute-of-man range for full auto isn't useful if the tiny lightweight bullet can only tumble or icepick at that range.

>>64836054
>taking someting with .22 LR energy into battle
Very dishonest take..22 LR recoil =/= .22 LR energy. Shame on you. 0.22 LR is 200 joule, MKR is 800 joules see >>64827977
>This isn't a "big boolit more better" mentality
It is. What is your quantification of the automatic fire effeciency?
>5.56 is very controllable!
Yeah pointless adjective. Imagine othe round characteristics were described same way
What is muzzle velocity? Very fast!
Energy? Very powerful!
Ballistic coefficient? Very long range! please buy dear sir!
Pointless babble. This is what happens when automatic fire is discussed their is no quantification for it's quality. Characteristics of rounds that can be measured with semi automatic fire (velocity, energy, bullet weight etc) are plugged into equation, but full automatic groups size isn't
(because machine guns are verboten for Americans, hopefully "not fully automatic fully automatic" FRT triggers profiliration will break this fudd mindset).

>>64836098
Alright then, show or describe to me a cartridge with 1 Ns recoil impulse and appreciable terminal ballistics vs human out to a range of, let's be generous and say 200m instead of the usual 300m.
Hint: it's not 4.5 MKR
Second hint: no, Patrick, yaw is not appreciable terminal ballistics for tiny bullets

>>64836109
>vs human out to a range of, let's be generous and say 200m instead of the usual 300m.
>Hint: it's not 4.5 MKR
And what is equation behind this conclusion?

>>64835165
I've never had a rimfire not shoot when using a rifle with a strong striker.
Conversely, I've had countless failures to fire when using centerfire ammunition with improperly installed primers...

>>64836054
>>if you think I'm taking someting with .22 LR energy into battle
>thinks that recoil and kinetic energy are the same thing
Bro..

>>64836109
5.56 icepicks just the same at 200m
At least with the 4.5 you'll actually hit the target.

>>64836054
Yet you'd have no qualms taking a 7.62 FMJ into battle, despite it icepicking and famously causing less damage than a fragmenting M193 556.

>>64835498
>barrier penetration is fudd
Oh yeah, because M855 and M855A1 have steel penetrators for no actual reason!

>>64835905
Comparatively smarter idea than 4.5mm MKR

>>64835944
How bad?

>>64835455
>what about barrier defeat?
It's a meme. The actual percentage of rounds used with this purpose explicitely in mind during combat is vanishingly small, way too smalll to justify the conflicting requirements. And it's not even particularly effective for that purpose. Any RPG-like weapon with a dedicated barrier breach warhead is infinitely better suited. Plus, with an ever increasing share of urban combat you want to avoid overpenetration.

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>>64835905
The Knox cartridge could fit 50 rounds in a 30rnd AR mag.

>>64835925
High pressures are an opportunity, not a flaw. Crank them up to the maximum possible to trade for higher mag cap and lighter cartridges. Big bores are good for pushing sabots, but sabots are a meme in CQB they can fly off and hit your own people.

>>64836610
I imagine it would be at least as bad as .224 Valkryie if not worse

>>64836967
>The Knox cartridge could fit 50 rounds in a 30rnd AR mag.
It's too bad it's fake.

>High pressures are an opportunity, not a flaw. Crank them up to the maximum possible to trade for higher mag cap and lighter cartridges
Okay, but if you're comparing a .17 at 80ksi to a .22 at 60ksi with the same mass and velocity, and you have a new case that can handle 100ksi, the .22 will increase in pressure more and thus gain more velocity compared to .17.

What I got out of this thread is that the reason this gun failed is brainlets think beeg boolets will get through armor.

>>64839239
That's not the reason the gun failed but you're right that some brainlets do think that

>>64839596
So if the only thing that matters is recoil control and muzzle velocity (purely for effective distance) why hasn't everyone switched to 5.7 for pistols yet?

>>64840296
5.7 only became affordable for anons recently and there's still a poor selection of handguns, but yes, some 9mm users have switched to it.

>>64840296
Because SOME measure of range and power matters.

>>64840931
If it can't penetrate barriers there's literally no point, and you can definitely get a smaller bullet to fly farther and faster than a larger one.

>>64840969
You will 100% penetrate light cover better with a 55gr-62gr bullet than a 25gr bullet, given the same velocity, and you will 100% produce a much more effective wound.

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>>64805095
>body... armor? that exists? lies, deception
How many rifle rated plates existed in 1978 and how many saw active widespread service? Even against pic related from 2005 at 300 meters the only surface area that wont get penetrated is the area covered by the SAPI plates. Helmet, and all the kevlar is gona get penetrated no problem.

The only way body armor is gona save you from 4.5mm bullet spam is if all your armor is rated to stop P90 and MP7 rounds so you are gona need some very thick vest, neck protector, groin protector and limb protection.

>>64841142
Stopping the P90 and MP7 isn't that difficult, also they icepick like motherfuckers once they penetrate any armor, the wounding is insanely shallow.

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>>64841156
>Stopping the P90 and MP7 isn't that difficult
For soft armor it is actually very hard. 5.7 SS190 can pierce less then150-180 layers of ballistic fiber while 4.6 DM31 will pierce 225 layers at close range. P90 firing ss190 can penetrate 48 layers of kevlar at 200 meters and P90+MP7 can penetrate the crisat vest (1.6mm titanium and 20 layers of kevlar) at 200 meters. The same projectiles will however in another test fail against 4mm thick ceramic plates backed by 40-30 layers of ballistic fiber so the solution is to have ceramic on top of all your soft armor.
>also they icepick like motherfuckers once they penetrate any armor,the wounding is insanely shallow.
True so it becomes a numbers game of how many hits and what area they hit. Hits to arms and legs wont seriously immedietly impede a man but a hit to the skull that icepick into the brain and it is game over.

If you go back to 1978, an era where everyone ran around in flak jackets then that is whole different game for the 4.5x26R that is designed to penetrate a steel helmet at 300 meters. The russians for example only started wearing flak jackets in a noticble numbers after the afghan invasion started in 1979 and it took them to about 1981 to actually mass produce flak jackets. They started using rifle rated plates after 1983-85 in larger numbers (and they still did not produce enough of them to replace all their flak jackets) and usually it only covered the front torso due to weight concerns so no rifle back plates. A 4.5 MKR sprayer with low recoil, high velocity and high magazine capacity will have no problem gunning down charging soviet conscripts even in flak jackets or rifle rated armor that OP is talking about.

>>64841336
what are back plates good for? how often do soldiers get shot in the back??

>>64841336
>. 5.7 SS190 can pierce less then150-180 layers of ballistic fiber while 4.6 DM31 will pierce 225 layers at close range
Should be added that level IIIA vests are 15-30 layers of ballistic fabric.

>>64841156
>also they icepick like motherfuckers once they penetrate any armor,
>*citation needed*
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZfjlmmjCUFU

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>>64842196
>what are back plates good for?
Stopping backshots lol?
>how often do soldiers get shot in the back??
Depends on the tactical situation, if you are running away, getting flanked etc but I dont have any hard numbers. I have read one account of a western volunteer in ukraine getting shot in the back in a battle in the early days of the war by friendly territorial guard due to battlefield confusion. He only noticed it after the battle when checking his back plate.

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>>64842590
>pic
I don't know if I should be impressed by how good the plate is or by how bad the russian ammo is. There's barely a bulge on the backface. The bullet just did not have as much energy as 54R should.

>>64842638
>API
It was probably 7n1.

>>64842590
seems like soldiers are putting a lot of weight on only to protect them from marginal situations. If you're running away you're dead anyway lol, and friendly fire should be trained out of the troops, not burden them with a lot of weight just in case it happens

>>64842590
>Hesco has offered to get him a
replacement plate so he can get back to giving
Ruskies dirt naps
Back to the meat grinder goy