You hear literally nothing about the MG, so its probably fine. The M7 is as bad as predicted.

Wonder how the m7 compares to the m14. Both are pretty much full caliber rifles so they're somewhat similar in purpose.

>>64822190
Everyone hates it from my understanding. Those who say that its good or is needed have some sort of financial reasoning for it to get adopted into the armed forces

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>>64822330
can't make it up

My honest opinion? I keep a pretty optimistic view on new weapons platforms being integrated compared to most of /k/. The first few iterations are going to be shit. It’s the same thing with cars whenever a major manufacturer overhauls an existing model. That said…
>The magazine over insertion issue
Fixable.
>The weight issue
Can be improved but it’s a detraction no matter how you slice it.
>Barrel gouging
Expensive but fixable.
>Shit suppressor rings
Fixable.
>Charging handle malfunctions
Fixable.
>Ambidextrous release accidentally dropping the mag
Fixable through training or a hardware update.
>Weight
It can be improved but it’s going to be a heavy motherfucker no matter how you slice it.
>Stock sucks
Fixable. Probably the first thing when they reduce a bit of weight but then we’re going backwards.
>Reduction in ammo carrying capacity
My biggest issue with it.
>Ammo isn’t NATO standardized
My favorite thing about it.

>>64822507
Mags also only carry 20 rounds, if I remember correctly.

>>64822514
That is correct. Honestly that doesn’t bother me as much. I accept the trade off for a larger caliber with presumably better penetration and thump behind it. I don’t inherently hate the idea of going back to battle rifles particularly for the average grunt. I don’t think it’s a good idea for Rangers or Delta by any means beyond a DMR role but for grunts? Okay sure. I HATE the fact that it’s a hulking monstrosity that is 150% the weight of an M1 Garand and isn’t even a fucking .30 caliber to make up for it. They could have just switched to AR-10s and avoided all this bullshit.

>>64822190
Makes no sense from a tactical standpoint currently, and as drones become more and more prolific, it's going to make even less sense to have a heavy ass rifle with less rounds to weight ratio.

>>64822190
The LMG seems like its ready now
The AR?
Oh boy

>>64822544
I think the idea is that manned offensives where drones will be a concern are generally not going to be part of U.S. battle doctrine moving forward. It really feels like without air and electronic warfare support they just aren’t going to try. Entrenched positions with armored patrols and advances this makes sense. It also feels like they aren’t planning for not having these things.

>>64822211
the machinegun is even worse than the rifle.

The only people who have significant enough trigger behind them to comment are the SIG contractors whose job it is to onboard and teach units how to use them. They keep their mouths shut because they know who signs their paychecks.

The AMU is being suitably corporate about the rollout and trying to make it work (much like the contractors) but anyone with enough clout to matter who says anything negative about it publicly is going to have their careers frozen for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uth54oUL87I

>>64822211
>so its probably fine
It just needs a quick detachable barrel-which S*g claims the army explicitly asked them to exclude- and it will be. It's still a poor 5.56 LMG replacement, but it will at least be serviceable.

>>64822561
>I think the idea is that manned offensives where drones will be a concern are generally not going to be part of U.S. battle doctrine moving forward.
...what?

>Entrenched positions with armored patrols and advances this makes sense
...what?

What is any of what you're saying based on lol?

>>64822507
All this talk and it doesn't seem like you've fired it.

>>64822533
I think it's ideally suited as a DMR or SDMR especially for grunts. The limited ammo capacity just isn't made up by the range or penetration the new round provides, and most grunts can't hit anything out past 400 anyhow.
The M7 was made for a war the US is no longer fighting, and for a military who's infantry doctrine has hinged on the principle of suppress by volume of accurate fire and maneuver. It's always going to be more advantageous for a grunt to have more ammo instead of more powerful ammo.

>>64823053
It’s definitely built with the lessons of Afghanistan at the front of the mind, but I do wonder if the threat of fpv munitions will extend fighting ranges well beyond arms length, making it at least make a bit more sense. Various levels of P-ISR are guaranteed on the modern battlefield, and the American public will never tolerate the level of casualties Russia is suffering to advance. M7 as it stands definitely needs enough refinement that I wish it still had the big X in front of it, but I’m not sold that the concept is still a terrible idea

>>64823066
I'll add as well that SIGs solution to the caliber requirements leaves much to be desired. 80k psi in a 13" barrel just yo reach the required muzzle velocity is scuffed, and is gonna end up with a lot of broken and blown out rifles very quickly due to the insane pressures. The training ammo is definitely more reasonably loaded, but then at that point the original ammo requirements become a moot point because that's all the Army is using anyhow, NOT the hot loaded ammo SIG promised they'd be able to deliver in bulk. So the entire reason behind the program, to switch to a new round for range and armor overmatch, is cut off at the knees because SIG can't produce the actual round they were contracted to make, which has insane pressures for a small arms wespon to generate enough fps from a short barrel to meet velocity requirements for range and penetration.
The whole idea and execution behind the M7 leaves much to be desired, and probably would have done better if it was just the MRGG trials anyhow.
The polymer ammo is a good idea, the caliber itself is pretty cool. I think it would have benefited more from a NAS3 case at lower pressure loads and a longer barrel for more efficient powder burn.
Like you said, all of the small details can be fixed and iterated upon, the AR had quirks and changes needed too, but fundamentally I think the M7 is a flawed concept and execution. I respect your stance, however I think it's important to look at the program from multiple angles to get a good picture of why it's so disparaged.

>>64822507
>zero mention of recoil or accuracy
How odd.

4chan hates sig specifically because this gun won over the cooler-looking bullpup.

>>64823938
Not to mention the bullpup was a legitimate step forward.

>>64822190
>any documented usage of them in Venezuela but criticize the M7
we won't know in the near future, that being said when you compare ngsw program to the Canadians and the Brits, the Canadians and Brits are far more realistic when they planned to replace their service rifles. the ngsw is nothing but a short term investment for sig and some bureaucratic officer in the army

>>64823053
it isn't accurate enough to be a DMR

>>64823938
everyone with a functioning brain hates these pos

>>64823928
>recoil
Watched a video on the m7 a while back and even these 6"3 220lb marines were getting kicked by the recoil. Definitely a poor weapon for assaults.

>>64823938
It's also a piece of shit and won through bribes

>>64824280
every small arms contract is won through bribes.

>>64822330
>>64822342
>no one likes it
>except for the people who do
>but they must be jews or being paid by jews
>there's no other reason why they'd say that
>because no one likes it

>>64824500
>he doesn't know about Cohen
wasted dubs

>>64824500
Despite being sarcasm, all of these points are correct except for the fourth; some people like without being paid to do so because they are intellectually disabled.

>>64824500
Tell me your personal experience with the fielding of the M7, anon. What kind of extra marksmanship training did you go through? Do you like it? Would you rather take it to go raid a trenchline or your M4? What rank are you? Are you ever actually going to be the guy doing that or are all those jobs you're going to leave to some poor E4?

>>64824190
I think it could be, IF sigsaar actually wanted to fix it

>>64822814
>What?
Exactly what I said. Yes. It is ridiculous. I pointed out the issue with that in the very last sentence. This is a move you make when you plan to defend trenches against an enemy wearing plates and have a vehicle nearby with jammers to handle drones and won’t be going far
>What is any of this based on?
Okay
>Bigger round
People bitched about having to shoot guys 3-5 times sometimes to kill them in Afghanistan and it carries more momentum at longer distances which contributes to-
>More range
>More penetration
For plates and obliterating cover
>More weight
Reduces mobility
>Its an extra ten lbs reeeee
In a drone heavy environment where man portable jammers will also be added and be heavy as fuck. AWG were dropping grenades on the tops of humvees at AP Hill way back in 2014. The answers already found. The technology already exists. It’s just heavy as fuck, sucks to carry, and has mediocre battery life necessitating some way to carry supplies beyond what is currently feasible for extended patrols. It really only works with a mechanized infantry force. Someone said fuck it we won’t be going far anyway so what’s an extra couple of pounds?

>>64825758
Not up to SIG. The army sets the requirements. Contractors meet them. SIG won because it met all the requirements. If the end result is still bad it's the army's fault for not setting the correct requirements.

Unlike the 320 fiasco you can't blame SIG for this one. It is entirely the army's fault this POS is the way it is.

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>>64822507
Fucking siggers I swear

>>64823947
No it wasn't. Plastic ammo is fucking dumb.

>>64825915
The only gun from the program that wasn't completely retarded was the textron design with its CT ammo

>>64822560
Everyone exalts the LMG but they seem to forget the bulk of the system weight is ammo. 6.8x51 weighs about twice as much as 5.56. So the weight savings of the LMG (GPMG, actually) are nullified by the increased ammo weight. What was the difference in combat load for the machine gunner? Like 400 fewer rounds or something?

>>64822670
The Army said they didn't care about the QD barrel because a squad can't carry enough ammo to need it. Sig took the handle off because it was extra weight that didn't do anything, but it still has the latch.

>>64825931
>So the weight savings of the LMG (GPMG, actually)
Neither, actually. It's an automatic rifle. The only role it serves is the same as the M27 for the Marines; it's not currently planned to replace the M240L in the GPMG role.

>>64825931
The choice between an LMG vs a MMG at the squad level has historically been a question of "is it worth having a real machine gun at the expense of having to give up a whole extra dude and render our squad structure asymmetrical just to have someone be his AG."

The benefit of an LMG is it can actually be crewed and fed by just one dude. So you can have two of them and make both fireteams tactically indistinguishable rather than having one be the de facto base of fire and the other the maneuver.

Their mistake here is trying to tell us that actually this full size medium machine gun here is just like the SAW and as such is 100% single-man operable so that whole combat load of linked ammo is your problem and yours alone.

>>64825963
The army can lie about that all they like but it's still the equivalent of a 240 and needs an AG in order to carry any appreciable amount of ammo.

>>64822211
The slight problem with the M250 is that it being an LMG means the barrel can be as long as needed, yet it's still stuck with that 80k psi round. It could be chambered in 7.62x51mm and that would be far better for barrel temps and barrel life, while still having good muzzle velocity.

>>64822507
>It can be improved but it’s going to be a heavy motherfucker no matter how you slice it.
Actually I picked up the new version at SHOT and it seems perfectly fine. 7lb naked? yeah okay.

>>64825969
I think the reasoning is that with the ISV on the front lines, a squad is never going to be far away from resupply wherever they're at. Which seems a little insane to me, but they've explicitly stated that the ISV is not intended to be a rear-echelon vehicle like the ragtop humvee and jeeps.

>>64825989
But it is just a ragtop humvee

>>64822670
>which S*g claims the army explicitly asked them to exclude
The US Army not wanting a QD barrel is a matter of public record.
And Sig have shown versions with a QD barrel.
There's hating Sig for various valid reasons, and there's being a disingenuous faggot.

>>64825991
It's a ragtop humvee that's supposed to do armored humvee things.

>>64825999
inb4 US troops get laughed at for doing the equivalent of a squad of russians charging across an open field in ATVs and minivans

>>64825963
> it's not currently planned to replace the M240L in the GPMG role

Well why not? This question always eluded me. It is an excellent replacement for the m240 - better in every way. Why keep the old 308 guns around when you have an m250?

>it’s an automatic rifle
Well it’s belt fed, it’s in a short action cartridge, and it weighs as much as an MG (cause it is one). 99% of the time it will be fired from the prone or a supported position, not off the shoulder. So, no, I wouldn’t classify the m250 under the same category as the much more nimble m27. A true IAR is something like an Ultimax or ArmWest MG10, where the gun can handle a much more extreme schedule of fire than a typical assault rifle, and recoil is light enough such that full auto even from the shoulder can be useful.

>>64826039
>A true IAR
The real difference is how many dudes you need minimum to keep it running

Light: 1

Medium: 2

Heavy: 3

>>64825931
>exalts
Uh, no

>>64826030
US troops will be doing it with EW and air superiority. There will probably be some embarrassing mass casualties at some point, though.

>>64826039
>It is an excellent replacement for the m240 - better in every way.
Is it, though? The M240 is among the most reliable firearms of all time. Sure, the M250 is 7 pounds lighter than even the lima, but machine guns are spending most of their time emplaced so it's not that big of a deal. That weight contributes significantly to its robustness and reliability even with sustained use, and it's unlikely that the M250 would be able to hold up to the same usage.

>Well it’s belt fed, it’s in a short action cartridge, and it weighs as much as an MG (cause it is one).
None of those things make a machine gun. The defining difference is that a machine gun is crew served and an automatic rifle is an individual weapon. It's a matter of doctrine, not design.

>>64824170
This, the CMAR program in particular is going way better than anything America has done in recent memory for small arms. Shame it's being wasted on such an irrelevant military.

>>64826039
I can tell you from personal experience the m250 is not better than the 240L. The only benefit is that is is lighter. But it being lighter plus the crazy ROF makes the thing hard to use. If you using the bipod, the m250 littleraly jumps off the ground. We had to throw our support hands over top and drive the guns into the ground to keep them remotely near the targets. Everything about the user experience on the m250 is fucking awful.

>>64826135
Maybe you just suck at managing recoil.

>>64826218
Anything they try to replace the 240 with is going to shoot worse and be harder to control because it doesn't weigh 28lbs. It'll be what it'll be and eventually people will come around so long as it functions.

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>>64826229
Isn't the Negev LMG basically the same as the M250? It's just chambered in 7.62mm instead of 6.8mm. Lemme check.

>M250 light machine gun weighs approximately 13 lbs (5.9 kg) unloaded and increases to about 14.5 lbs (6.6 kg) with its suppressor and bipod
>The IWI Negev standard 5.56mm model weighs approximately 7.6 kg (16.7lbs), while the 7.62mm NG-7 variant is around 7.6–7.95 kg.

Wow, looks like the M250 is even lighter than the negev, actually. But not by that much. Just stick one of those new, fuck heavy, self cooling Inconel suppressors on the end of the barrel and you've got your extra weight.

>>64822190
They make AR babbies cope sneed and dilate, while being battle rifles and for that reason i hope they fare well

>>64826263
>I hope they do well because I'm a petty bitch
Jesus Christ.

>>64826218
NTA, I’m the guy he was responding to. I didn’t consider RPM. I just checked Wikipedia and the 240 runs as low as 500 and the m250 runs at 800rpm. That’s a huge difference, plus the m250 is lighter so that certainly doesn’t help. The 6.8x51 was just a gigantic blunder of an adoption it seems. Why couldn’t they have scaled it down to the size of a 5.56? If sectional energy remains equal, then trajectory and penetration characteristics will be (toughly) equal too, but with smaller and lighter cartridges that recoil less.

>>64826270
The petty bitch is you crying about the military's rifle not making you feel like a leet cawadooty special forces guy anymore

>>64826270
After all the years of ARbabies saying "bullpup bad becuz [insert literal who country here] just got rid of their vintage AUGs" I feel vindicated. Now they can come with me and accept that military service means jack shit in terms of a gun's qualities, meaning they need new anti-pup cope, or they hold steadfast that service is the best metric for a rifle, accepting their raifu is shit now. Of course they can keep saying ARs on Mars but it won't change the fact that the M7 has been fully paid for, the ammunition production lines are up, and we are way, way past the point of cancelation

>>64822190
They're so bad the army may as well get rid of them all at any cost. I'll graciously take as many for free as they can drop off at my house.

>>64826281
It's a combination of the army canceling so many projects that they felt a need to get one through, and Sig grafts.

>>64826284
But I'm not. I just think you're an emotional baby.

>>64826286
You can't even evaluate a weapon based on its design. It's all spite. You're a fucking baby.

>>64826281
Because the point was never range or armor penetration, it was to use a Real Man's Bullet™ like back in the Good Old Days®. The NGSW program is the result of combining two earlier programs, NGSAR and ICSR. ICSR was pretty much just a request for a .308 or sneedmore AR-10. The 6.8 shit came later.

>>64826295
Oh yeah the M7 is shit, won't change the fact that I'm smug as a bug that certain people are unbelievably assblasted by it

>>64826295
>nuh uh, YOURE a little poopy head and my favorite toy is better!
Wonderful rebuttal

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>>64826296
Actually, it was an evolution of the LSAT program. This program yielded some genuinely forward thinking designs and technologies. Unfortunately the extended range requirement of the NGSW proved to be too much for these systems to handle. It was good for 5.56mm, but not the 6.8mm monster max rounds the army wanted.

>>64826299
My critique of your analysis is merely based on the sheer lack of objectivity displayed by it. I've made my fair share of posts ITT shitting on the NGSW guns. Your catty posts just happened to make me think you give NGSW detractors a bad name.

>>64826308
>*pushes up glasses*
>ERM AKSHUALLY MY CRITIQUE OF YOUR ANALYSIS LENDS TO MUCH BEING DESIRED OF YOUR REBUTTAL
Ok bud, dont have an aneurysm thinking too hard of how to feel like your pet choice of rifle is the best flavor of ice cream

>>64826314
If you think I think the M7 is good, then prove it isn't.

>>64826286
bitter tranny gun enthusiast happy because the US is finally replacing the greatest service rifle to ever be fielded with something almost as bad as his favorite sneedpup

>>64826326
Grim

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>>64822190
>erm it's backwards thinking because it's a full power cartridge that's not needed for the 300 yards and in distances that Ian from forgottenweapons says gunfights happen at
>and he would know because he mag dumps at steel at close range and he looked at the data from wwi, wwii, and Vietnam where they were using old timey iron sights in urban and heavily forested areas
>we need to be forward thinking and design our small arms for the requirements of conflicts that happened over half a century ago and ignore the fact that engagement distances have been getting longer since optics have been getting better and more widely issued
Why do all NGSW haters sound like this? They need to stop listening to faggot ass YouTubers and whiny bitch pogs. A heavier, louder, more recoiling rifle with ammo that's heavier and bulkier that you can't carry as much of is a great tradeoff for not having to lug it as far or get into the range of the enemy.
It's the 21st century, we're all about killing the enemy before they even know we're there. This is a great weapons system platform for that.

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>>64826135
holy kek sig saar cohen ripped the army off so bad

>>64826135
>Problem that could've been easily solved with a compensator
>Can't do that because it's fucking married to its special sauce suppressor 24/7
Brilliant

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>>64826421
Suppressors are better at mitigating recoil than compensators, though.

>>64826447
It's not about recoil dumbass it's about muzzle rise. You're thinking about muzzle brakes (which are still a bit better than cans for reducing recoil, or at least the good ones are) A can doesn't do shit for muzzle rise besides just adding some weight to the end. A comp redirects the blast vertically so it pushes the muzzle back down, COMPENSATING for muzzle rise. Really aggressive ones (too aggressive for caliber) can result in the gun actually being driven DOWN when firing instead of up.
Try being right before posting a smug tranime gif next time.

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>>64826479
Suppressors are the best recoil mitigators. That means they stop muzzle flip too.

>>64826497
Nuh-uh

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>>64826501
You're such a joke, lol.

>>64826514
Ur just butthurt

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>>64822190
>Venezuela?
Unlikely, Delta Force and the other Specials use their own toys, not sure if Delta are still on tuned up 416s or whatever, Seals moved to one of the Noveske AR-15s, Rangers are still on URGI M4A1s

>>64826384
>for not having to lug it as far or get into the range of the enemy.
you are retarded

>>64826520
Definitely not Venezuela, nothing about that grab-and-go op called for anything the M7 does. They wouldn't have even needed anything with a barrel longer than 12.5" (imo).

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>>64826384
The most neverserve post of all time. Fuck off back to your civilian threads fatso

>>64826527
>>64826543
>rangers like it
>pogs don't
kek

>>64826553
>rangers like it
post scroll

>>64826302
I mean, you can just look up ICSR and NGSAR. It's not like either one was a secret. The Textron NGSW entry was a further development of LSAT, yes, but the other six entries had nothing to do with it.

>>64826281
In reality is closer for 900 I think. There is one thing I really did like about the 250. When you got to load the rounds, the top round clicks into the feed paws so you don’t have to hold them in place whole to close the top cover, like you did on the 240. The folding charging handle is kinda ass, and if you’re moving fast it’s easy to miss. Staying any sort of magnified optic is almost impossible. It’s like a, aim and then hope you’re close through the burst because the gun jumps and vibrates so much any sight picture you had is immediately gone. On the 240 you’re still able to adjust and kinda keep track. Not to mention the 250 is like 3x the cost of the 240L which I think everyone I was with agreed was more usable.

>>64826218
Hey man if you think you can maintain a sight picture on a 13 pound 7.62 firing 800-900 RPM, join a branch or agency and go for it. But it won’t happen because something tells me you won’t even make height and weight standards.

>>64826447
That is not true at all...

>>64826296
>Because the point was never range or armor penetration,
the funny mustache guy from SIG says the Army wants grunts to shoot BTRs with M7s

>>64827145
>Not to mention the 250 is like 3x the cost of the 240L
3 times the cost of an M240B, maybe. You should look up what an 240L costs.

I'm not really going to hate on Sig for the m7, I am going to hate on the military though. The ngsw had requirements that the technology really isn't up to yet. It's fine for AO to put out seemingly impossible tasks to see what the market can deliver, but what was delivered shouldn't have been adopted. I get the sense that brass was expecting a rifle that felt like an m4, handled like an m4, and shot like an m4, but through the magic of technology could send a .30 cal bullet through lvl iv

>>64827268
>I'm not really going to hate on Sig for the m7
coward

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pls cancel this program hegseth

I know it's not really your job but if you're sticking your dick in so much other shit you may as well do it here too

>>64827145
>800-900 RPM
Need to tune that down to more like 650 desu

>>64827233
The 240L is retarded. Engineers brute forcing a weight reduction using a limited strategic resource to make a 1:1 dimensional swap of an existing 1930s tier receiver design made of four fat plates held together by rivets. There were way better solutions already on the market and they chose the most wasteful one.

>>64826384
>It's the 21st century, we're all about killing the enemy before they even know we're there. This is a great weapons system platform for that.

Let's set aside everything else that you're stupid about. Do you think your average grunt is capable of making 300 yard shots even with a BDC in the scope? If you want to be killing people before they realize you're there, that's what the PIKE, Switchblade, and other squad portable PGMs are for, and every ounce spent carrying ammo is spent not carrying one of the more lethal weapon platforms.

>inb4 muh jamming
The US can and does spend an unholy amount per system because they're resistant to EW and are semi-autonomous at worst, with fully fire and forget automation coming on the same timeline that the M7 would be adopted.

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>>64827268
>the sense that brass was expecting a rifle that felt like an m4, handled like an m4, and shot like an m4, but through the magic of technology could send a .30 cal bullet through lvl iv
That was never the plan. The "overmatch" that they kept talking about is the ability to out range a tripod mounted PK machinegun plinking at its max range, because that happened a few times in Afghanistan.

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An anon some time ago said something insightful: the NGSW was really about the machine gun (automatic rifle) not the M7 (referred to simply as rifle in the program documents). The Army needed a machine gun to replace the M249 which was overmatched by PKM with 7.62x54R. New rifle, new ammo, new machine gun combined into one program to sell to congress and "save" money. Kind of like when your woman comes back from the mall with lots of bags and says "guess how much money I saved!?!" The NGSW was billed as lighter and more powerful, but they didn't say what they were comparing it to. More powerful than 5.56 Nato. Lighter than a M240. Both are true for the M250. Not necessarily for the M7.
I predict M250 will replace M249. M240 will probably be replaced by one of the .338 Norma Magnum machine guns undergoing testing now. M7 has already been updated with a shorter barrel, non-folding stock (to save weight) and some other improvements. It will replace the M14s that are still in service. As an aside, M14 is still used by the Navy to launch heaving lines. An M7 with a gas shut off can replace that...eventually. 6.8x51 ammo? That will probably go away, but the high pressure cartridges are already coming with 7mm Backcountry, .30 Epic, and a 5.56x45 replacement ammo, I forget what it's called. Just my two cents. Pic unrel.

>>64825915
polymer's biggest downside is that you can't reload the cases, and that doesn't matter for the military. it makes for a lighter loadout, and heat management still works out fine with an insulator in place of the usual discarded heat sink.

>>64828469
It's absolutely about the rifle too. The program the NGSW replaced was the Interim Combat Service Rifle, which was trying to replace the M4 with something in 7.62x51mm. NGSW was always centered around the rifle.

>>64826295
You would be surprised how many seemingly functional adults are like that.
I know a serbian guy who runs a business on pure childish spite (for his clients) and nothing else. Otherwise he seems likea well-adjusted mature fella--not a pathetic imageboard manchild like the faggot you're replying to.

>>64828495
>discarded heat sink
That argument against plastic is fucking retarded because, as a better thermal insulator, it's going to retain more heat and eject it from the rifle than a brass case. If brass is good because it "takes heat out of the rifle" then plastic is even better. It's only retards who think that because brass feels hot, it is hotter. In any situation, the amount of heat removed from the rifle via an ejected case is minuscule compared to the heating due to burning propellant in the barrel and friction.

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>>64828469
Follow up slide to >>64828451 showing how much of a hard on these retards had for long range rifle fire.

While the Marines werre awfully sneaky by slipping the M27 in the backdoor as a rifle replacement, the Army is actually stupid enough to believe that for some reason people are actually going to be shooting (and making hits!) at 500m-700m in combat situations.

>>64828451
The PKM being billed as a 1500m weapon in that slideshow will never not be funny

Did they pull that number from soviet manuals without accounting for the difference in acceptable beaten zone sizes in our doctrine?

>>64828451
Well yeah, they also wanted 1000 yd killing power in something short and light, which is equally unachieveable, especially since bullpups are apparently a no-go

>>64828854
>The PKM being billed as a 1500m weapon in that slideshow will never not be funny
Lots of people point at that bit as being laughable, but hardly anyone throws shade at the fucking AKM, which would almost never have an optic mind you, as being a 500m rifle on par with an ACOG'd M4.

>>64828873
Well the army also believes (doctrinally) that an iron sighted M4 is just as much a 500m weapon as one with an ACOG. This has been consistent since the M16 was adopted in its original form.

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>>64822533
coulda had ar10s in 7.2x43 mm
>oh well

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>>64822190
No. And no.

>>64823053
>>64825758
It's not designed or built to be good enough to be a DMR.

>>64825854
It's still up to Sig a little, given how they can be as bad as 6MOA.

>>64826384
Kill yourself, I was calling the NGSW program completely retarded for years before Ron Cohen bribed enough people and sucked enough dicks to make the worst entrant to that stupid program win.

>>64828854
You can totally use the PKM at 1500m if you angle it upwards like an artillery piece and just squeeze off salvos, praying that maybe a few bullets might annoy your target.

>>64828854
16.22047" wide dispersion at 1000 meters ?
>citation.ru

>>64828469
The NGSW program is a combination of two earlier programs, NGSAR (Next Generation Squad Automatic Rifle) and ICSR (Interim Combat Service Rifle, a battle rifle to replace the M4). They obviously cared about both weapons since they had programs in place to develop each of them, they just decided that it made more sense to source both weapons from the same supplier.

>>64827268
>but what was delivered shouldn't have been adopted.
The program was intentionally set up so that they couldn't compare the combat effectiveness of the new weapons to the old ones and so that they didn't have the option of not adopting the winning entry at the end. Mark "Give me a credit card and I'll walk into a Cabela's and buy a bunch of shitty non-dropsafe pistols that shoot soldiers in their own legs" Milley was newly in charge of Army procurement at the time and vowed to reform the system that ended up with billions poured down the drain on SALVO, SPIW, FPR, ACR, OICW, LSAT, and ICSR without ever having adopted a new rifle since the one that was foisted on them by the Air Force.

>>64829478
SPIW, ACR, and OICW still had their results though, just not what was originally gone for.

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>>64827233
>>64828026
Barrett had the right idea with their take on a lightened M240.

>>64829489
None of them resulted in a new rifle being adopted by the Army.

>>64829515
They didn't, but they resulted in 40x46mm grenades and launchers, more widespread use of rifle optics like ELCANs and subsequently the ACOG. The XM25 itself left some to be desired, but they must still believing in the concept because they're doing a new, larger bore 'precision grenade launcher' program, which looks more promising.

>>64829515
No, because none of the concepts explored by those programs produced something actually better than an M16 or M4. "We already have the best general weapon design philosophy" is a valid conclusion even if it isn't what was desired.

>>64825879
he could've been brendan fraser in another life

>>64829329
Yeah and you can do exactly the same with a 240 but they only put it down as a 1200m weapon

Probably to better effect

>>64829565
True. While one could complain about money spent, an M4A1 with an M203 and ACOG makes it worth it.

>>64829579
Which makes that chart all the funnier.

>>64829315
>It's still up to Sig a little
Only to the point that their job is to provide the bare minimum put out in the published specification. Anything worse is a breach of contract. Anything better it is either a happy accident or a potential cost cutting opportunity.

>>64829545
>>64829565
I'm not saying nothing good came from them. I'm saying that the perception was that it was wasted money because the Army kept developing new guns and never adopting any of them. Mark Milley vowed to reform the Army procurement process, and followed through on that by ensuring that there would be no provision for *not* adopting the NGSW winner, no matter how dogshit it turned out to be.

Now what we have is a dogshit NGSW winner being adopted, and the Army continuing to push for wider and wider adoption of it to the detriment of potentially more effective programs because it's a matter of honor for them at this point.

I think it looked decent

>>64829739
>Mark Milley vowed to reform the Army procurement process, and followed through on that by ensuring that there would be no provision for *not* adopting the NGSW winner, no matter how dogshit it turned out to be.
Letting retards touch the hot plate is a good thing in the long run, since it makes them more careful in the future. There's no easy way to teach the "take care to get what you like, or you'll be forced to like what you get" lesson.

>>64829847
It's just unfortunate that it's going to result in American soldiers getting killed before the lesson gets learned. Hopefully small arms become as irrelevant as the dronefags claim and it won't be that big of a deal.

>>64829739
I know, and I'm just saying that "no procurement" doesn't necessarily mean wasted money. It's a bit corny but Edison's statement of "I didn't fail, I learned 9324759087 ways to not make a lightbulb" rings true, the takeaway from all these programs that tried and failed is that the focus should be on further refining and improving the AR-15 platform and the 5.56 cartridge. That's arguably as valuable as actually getting a new wunderwaffe since we've found out that we already have one.
Basically Mark Milley is a dumbass.

>>64829495
>barrel length 18.9"
>ammunition: m118LR
>muzzle velocity: 2800 fps
the fuck are they smoking to think it can achieve that

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>>64822190
Why were people complaining about weight when the Marines newest rifle is almost the same but in a weaker caliber?

>>64829948
The M27 shouldn't exist either but thanks for asking.

>>64829948
>bigger boolit better
you need to be 18 to post

>>64822241
When you think about it, the M14 was the original M7. They'll probably share the same fate. Wait for a few decades to witness the creation of the M7 EBR.

>>64830033
I really want to see one of these big money influencers put an EBR up against the M7 in a match

>>64829883
The thing is, small arms are never going to stop being relevant, but at close quarters. Exactly the environment where the M7 sucks.

>>64830044
I don't even think that the gun is super accurate when shooting the spicy .277 fury. That's why a DMR variant with a longer, heavier and accurized barrel would probably make sense.

>>64823938
>>64823947
Nobody liked the Bullpup, they liked the Ammo because it was a realistic and practical step forward.

>>64829948
Still allows you to carry way more rounds
Not the best choice but sure as fuck a better one than trusting in much more limited amounts of wunderwaffe rounds for each grunt

>>64829889
>Basically Mark Milley is a dumbass.
Sig's backers probably have really good blackmail/compromat on him. He has the physiognomy of a pedophile so it's probably something related to that

>>64830098
Hmmm, I wonder if he's in the Epstein Files...

>>64829948
>weaker caliber
THERE IS A FUCKING REASON SCHV CARTRIDGES GOT ADOPTED GLOBALLY

>>64830098
Sig is probably very good at bribing and hiring shills. CIA glowies like Shaun Ryan keep shilling for them.

>>64825986
Ya but firing that round? Recoil is probably crazy on it, and that's not too mention the concussive blast

>>64829948
You think people are joking when they say that Marines eat crayons?

>>64830197
>>64830098
Sig doesn't have to bribe anyone. They have become exactly what the MIC wants them to be: One stop shops at affordable prices, the actual quality be damned.

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>>64830731

>>64822241
It's half the rifle the M-14 is, that's why it's called the M-7.

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>>64822241
You can get an M14 which is nice and enjoy it, meanwhile, with Sigslop...

>>64830301
Ok but consider what you're saying:

"waaaaah, full powered cartridges have too much recoil, I need 5.56"

while most people universally agree that 5.56 is a very mild-recoil cartridge.

So which is it, is it mild AF, or is it the upper limit of what is acceptable?

"You can shoot more rounds of 5.56 accurately"
Sure, but people against 6.8x51 say it's stupid to try to turn every rifleman into a marksman. So are soldiers meant to try to hit, or just spray and pray?

"MUH assaulters and flanking and maneuvering, we need lots of ammo"
Much like the idea that we need to engage the enemy at extended ranges because PKMs were harassing troops in the Afghanistan valleys, the current doctrines of maneuvering and occupying the enemy with volleys of inaccurate 5.56 while other assets move in for the kill may very well be as obsolete. Drones and shit..

The USMC is actually an interesting case. For the past 10 years, they've been chasing a new doctrine with different ways of organizing squads. They stopped using LMGs. They picked a pretty heavy piston gun (at this point the M7 and the M27 are about the same weight). They emphasize marksmanship and accuracy. If it weren't for the reduced ammo load, the USMC would probably really like the M7A1.

This really boils down to trying to predict what the next war will look like, and just like the Army seems to have come up with weird requirements based on past experience, a lot of the detractors also base their opinion on past experience. They also seem laser-focused on the M7 without taking into account the fact that NGSW was also the M250 LMG, which makes a lot more sense on paper as a M249/M240 replacement. So maybe the endgame is having a good LMG with higher pressure ammo, and a rifle that shares the cartridge, and grunts just get fucked and it is what it is. Infantry doesn't win wars anymore.

>>64832323
Bro nobody is reading your chatGPT tier response nigger

>>64822190
Much like the problem people had with seatbelts, it does something but there hasn't been long term use case data to prove exactly what.

>>64829478
Yeah, small arms are pretty small potatoes in the grand scheme of defense spending so I was suprised at the obvious sig favoritism, I didn't think they'd have the cheddar to to swing the decision their way. I'm sure that we're now going to have to get in a ground war somewhere to test out the m7 and then we'll see.

>>64832420
We had battle rifles for decades. It's been proven as an outdated concept

>>64832323
The only point at which a rifleman and his rifle affects any kind of decisive action in the greater fight is within that proverbial last hundred yards. Optimizing his tool for a range of combat better suited for LMGs, grenade launchers, and indirect/direct fire support is stupid. The infantryman's fight isn't over until he's stepped over the other guy's corpse. That's the final step in any battle drill that isn't some form of break contact and unless you want to go back to relying on bayonets as the infantry's primary solution for CQB a battle rifle is too much gun be the only available tool for the one job that only they can do.

Don't twist that to think I believe we should be issuing a P90 or something. Somewhere there is a bare minimum for barrier penetration and terminal effect to make a weapon generally useful in urban combat that you shouldn't go under as a rule. Is 5.56 it? It certainly comes very close.

>>64825851
>jamming
Doesn't work on AI controlled drones which are becoming more and more prominent, also fiber drones.

>Okay
Exactly, you have nothing to base it on, you're just writing lies for some reason.

>People bitched about having to shoot guys 3-5 times sometimes to kill them in Afghanistan
Okay, and? Was any of this followed up on? Did it actually take that many or were rounds not landing on target? Random soldiers bitching is not a cause for changing your entire infantry doctrine.

>For plates and obliterating cover
Yeah, you're not obliterating a gently sloping hill with anything short of much heavier ordnance.

>so what’s an extra couple of pounds?
Life and death when you're assaulting through a target.

You're a brainlet with no actual knowledge.

>>64832323
>If it weren't for the reduced ammo load, the USMC would probably really like the M7A1.
Except that the M27 is sub-MOA with match ammo (which the USMC purchases and issues) and the M7 is 3 MOA with match ammo (that the Army isn't buying).

>>64833044
Post 30 round group from a sled with your issued M27

>>64833052
Post 20 round group from your issued M7.

Just kidding, at least 5 of those will probably end up behind you somehow.

>>64833058
The egregious accuracy problems mostly depend on the lot of ammo your unit draws.

>>64826098
Well, when compared to the common attitude towards the m7 (raw hate), the m250 is revered, yes. Some act like it’s the saving grace of the otherwise disastrous NGSW program.

They should've just adopted the MCX in 5.56 and been done with it

>>64833325
The MCX is still a sig product which is a massive problem. Also after having held one I realized it really sucks, way heavier than it needs to be

>>64833325
lmao no

>>64833325
Would not surprise me if this is the eventual outcome desu

>>64833143
And none of it is the Sig Fury Hybrid Match ammo that it needs in order to reach 3 MOA, because the Army isn't buying it.

>>64833545
I think some German police departments got rid of the MCX because the upper receiver was deforming or something

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>>64834898
Berlin swat, they replaced them with HK437s in .300 blk, info copied from hkpro so take it with a grain of salt

>Parts issues, wear issues, reliability issues, most likely an issue with gas port sizes, and mediocre support through the german importer/vendor (and, but that's just an assumption, probably mediocre support through SIG, too. Otherwise they could have overruled/pushed the importer).

>>64837085
*Schleswig-Holstein, not Berlin
Berlin is keeping theirs for now it seems

>>64833041
>AI
Russians and below tier enemies will not have this in any serious numbers but provides further reason as to why my speculation of a move towards mechanized is ill advised against advanced militaries so…okay? I don’t think you’re scoring the point you think here faggot
>Lies
Speculation is not lying retard
>S-so what if you had to shoot your target multiple times to bring him down?
You shoot them with something bigger retard
>Y-you still can’t obliterate dirt!
No but you can punch through a wall easier
>More weight is le bad
Addressed multiple times why this is a bad idea retard.