Yes, an argument can be made for this but the problem remains that it can't adequately be translated into any other language. Reading it in French is the only way to fully appreciate it.

>>25059720
I don't disagree but the same can be said of Dante and Shakespeare and in fact almost every poet.

https://youtu.be/wrjX8mHPwzg

>>25059754
*blocks your path*
https://youtu.be/WXsdEThxSHs

https://fleursdumal.org/poem/307

Baudelaire is good but come on, even among the French Mallarme is the best symbolist, and Whitman is far more influential. Flowers has nothing against Un Coup de des or Leaves of Grass.

>>25059714
>Fr*nch
dgaf

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>>25059798
>Baudelaire
>symbolist

>>25059714
The last lines of Invitatión au Voyage made me cry. First time I actually read good poetry.

>>25059714
>that isn't Blake
That isn't Blake.

>>25059714
Goethe, Heine and Gautier are better.

>>25059714
It tries too hard to be cool and important if we're being honest

>>25059887
The monolingual is strong with this one

>>25059904
Name one poem from each. Without going through Wikipedia

>>25060400
West-östliche Divan, Atta Troll, Émaux et camées

>>25059887
You're a funny guy

>>25059750
>almost

>>25059904
Based someone who actually likes Heine. If I ever learn German i'll read that nigga with enthusiasm.

>>25060453
I said one poem, one, ein, un, ein, one, ein, un. So we can easily compare with a poem by Baudelaire.

>>25060462
Schiller is better

>>25060492
But it is Baudelaire's collection that is under discussion here, and not a single poem therein contained.

>>25060495
He probably is, but i'm much more interested in the Romantics. Throughout their century there was such an implosion of output that many geniuses are buried, reduced, or misrepresented. Heidegger called the 19th century the most obscure of modernity.

>>25060502
I accept your concession

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>>25059887

Scott's lady of the lake is the crown jewel of 19th century poetry
Baudelaire would agree

>>25060562
Baudelaire was a lot more interested and influenced by Poe and learned English to read him.

>>25060575
Anglos still win.
Why were all of france's greatest literary figures anglophiles?
>Voltaire and Montisque were anglophiles who admired england and its system of government
>The french revolutionaries were inspired by the american anglo revolutionaries and by the glorious revolution of 1688
>France's romantic writers were all influenced by Walter scott and Charles Maturin
>Baudelaire learned english to translate poe

>>25060746
Tbf Voltaire hated Shakespeare and the fact he was more popular than French drama. He was almost furious

Also Baudelaire's translations of Poe are quite arguably better the original. This is partially due to the French language which can describe the highly grotesque and macabre a very deadpan, almost fashionably bored way, and the main criticism of Poe tends to be his prose sounds overwrought. Baudelaire was fascinated by Poe because many of the stories he imagined he found Poe had already written and so he thought his mind was an echo of Poe's o algo.

>>25060746
Why were all of England's greatest literary figures francophiles?

>Chaucer modeled his early work on French poets like Machaut, Froissart, and the Roman de la Rose after time spent in France
>Dryden, Pope, and the Augustans closely imitated French neoclassicism (Molière, Racine, Boileau), with the heroic couplet
>English Romantics were deeply inspired by the ideas of Rousseau (Wordsworth, Coleridge) and those of the French Revolution (Shelley and Byron)
>T.S. Eliot credited Baudelaire, Laforgue, Mallarmé, and Valéry as decisive for modern poetry.
>Wilde, Joyce, and Woolf borrowed heavily from French realism (Flaubert, Zola) and symbolism (Baudelaire, Mallarmé)
>Wilde, Joyce, Hemingway, and Stein lived in Paris
>Dickens revered Victor Hugo as a genius, visited him in Paris, and echoed similar social realism and revolutionary themes in A Tale of Two Cities
>Victor Hugo was one of the most read and revered author of Victorian England
>George Eliot and Henry James were huge Balzac and Flaubert fanboys

>>25060493
This was awful.

>>25060904
The French admired the English for their liberalism, the English admired the French for their taste.

>>25060904
Romanticism is the great exception as a uniquely English thing.
Uniquely English but something the rest of Europe took to like the plague.

>>25061757
You don't feel that Sturm und Drang anticipated romanticism? Romanticism in art and music seems to have arisen of its own in Europe and it seems likely that Romanticism in poetry would naturally follow. Shakespeare also seems to have been a bigger influence on German Romanticism than English Romanticist poetry was

>>25061810
>Shakespeare also seems to have been a bigger influence on German Romanticism than English Romanticist poetry was

No I don't. The Germans got into a long muddle over trying to write like Wordsworth about trees and rivers and moons and such. Or trying to sound like Keats. Plus it's infected most other arts like painting and music for way longer than it did anywhere else.


As for prefiguring romanticism, you also get a lot of that in the Italian style. But they are always more interested in people in the way the romantics never were.


But Romanticism really is it. it's the only unique English fad that had any currency outside of the mainland.

>>25061757
>as a uniquely English thing.
Robert Burns wasn't English son.

>>25060904
>Dryden, Pope, and the Augustans closely imitated French neoclassicism (Molière, Racine, Boileau)

I will say that I'm really prefer the English versions of those plays.

They have more going on (Molière can be brain dead simple sometimes) and once you get to the restoration, with comedies like Man of Mode you start getting the French plays reimagined as fast talking sex comedies which I much preferred

>>25061828
You think Hölderlin was heavily influenced by Keats and Wordsworth?

>>25061832
The rhyming in French works better than English, in French it is just because French meter lacks beats or rhythm, and that combined with alexandrines employing caesuras, it's clear that the rhymes are not intended to be a major source of humor, more structure. In English translations by contrast they tend to steal the show, and are not simply a way of structuring the lines but become the "punchline" of every joke.

Molière (like Shakespeare) makes a lot of puns and jokes that are easily missed outside of his time and place. Whole Shakespeare frequently has notes to deal with this, translations of Molière regularly just substitute alternative jokes

>>25061842
>The rhyming in French works better than English, in French it is just because French meter lacks beats or rhythm,

Most restoration plays are entirely in verse, with an occasional song thrown in for good measure.
English kind of abandons rhyme for a while there.


>>25061833
>You think Hölderlin was heavily influenced by Keats and Wordsworth?

Wordsworth no. But Keats, and blake yes. Even Shelly when they're being more rhetorical. Also novelists like Scott are everywhere.
Plus the other person that hangs over them is Byron. Super popular everywhere in Europe (not exactly a romantic in my opinion, but still) and I think everyone wanted to be Byron.

I don't want want to make it sound like Shakespeare didn't matter. But everyone who came after him took up a different part of Shakespeare's writing. What's the romantics liked were the more dower, melancholy bits from the poems and later plays. There is something uniquely German about that atmosphere.


But I don't want to make it sound like an entirely English revolution. The Germans did more with Romanticism than all of Europe combined.

(Apologies for spacing and spelling I'm on my phone)

>>25061861
>Most restoration plays are entirely in verse,
Meant to say prose.

>>25061861
>Wordsworth no. But Keats, and blake yes

Are you sure?

>>25060904
Romanticism was created by the British and Continentals have to cope with it
>>25061810
Sturm and Drang was almost entirely inspired by British writers. Goethe was inspired by young, percy, ossian, etc
>>25061829
He was a scottish lowlander in the anglo cultural sphere.

>Thomas Percy’s influential Reliques of Ancient English Poetry (1765) was also much admired, and the philosopher Johann Gottfried Herder, who had been sent a copy by Rudolf Erich Raspe (of Munchausen fame) in August 1771, the same month Herder wrote the first draft of his essay Über Ossian und die Lieder alter Völker, responded to calls for a German Percy. In 1773, he began translating sections of the Reliques and collecting other North European folksongs for a volume of ‘Alte Volkslieder, englisch und deutsch zusammen’ which, though sent to the press, on account of numerous errors by the printer was never published. In 1777, Herder returned to the project, and the first volume, now titled simply Volkslieder, appeared the following year
>A glance at the contents pages reveals the extraordinary range of the originals—Lithuanian, Spanish, Swiss, Danish, Skaldic, Morlach, Greek, Estonian, Lapp, Latvian, Greenlandic—but as Percy’s Reliques was the impetus, most come from English or Scots. Other sources include Ramsay’s Tea-table Miscellany, D’Urfey’s Wit and Mirth, or Pills to purge Melancholy, Camden’s Remaines, Ossian, and, perhaps surprisingly, Shakespeare (Measure for Measure, Cymbeline (two extracts), The Tempest, As You Like It (two extracts), Othello, Twelfth Night, Hamlet), who also provides the quotation on the title-page of the first volume (Laertes’ ‘A violet in the youth of primy nature …’, in German). Goethe is another: the first appearance in print of ‘Klaggesang von der edlen Frauen des Agan-Aga’ (‘Die Uebersetzung dieses edlen Gesanges ist nicht von mir’, notes Herder), plus songs collected in Alsace.
Why do the Germans claim they invented romanticism? I don't even hate german writers but claiming they invented the movement is just we wuzzing

>>25062070
>In 1759, at the age of 76, he published a piece of critical prose under the title of Conjectures on Original Composition which put forward the vital doctrine of the superiority of "genius," of innate originality being more valuable than classic indoctrination or imitation, and suggested that modern writers might dare to rival or even surpass the "ancients" of Greece and Rome.
>The Conjectures was a declaration of independence against the tyranny of classicism and was at once acclaimed as such becoming a milestone in the history of English, and European, literary criticism. It was immediately translated into German at Leipzig and at Hamburg and was widely and favourably reviewed. The cult of genius exactly suited the ideas of the Sturm und Drang movement and gave a new impetus to the cult of Young’
>The young Goethe told his sister in 1766 that he was learning English from Young and Milton, and in his autobiography he confessed that Young's influence had created the atmosphere in which there was such a universal response to his seminal work The Sorrows of Young Werther. Young's name soon became a battle-cry for the young men of the Sturm und Drang movement. Young himself reinforced his reputation as a pioneer of romanticism by precept as well as by example.

I know that title because it appeared in an anime where the protagonist read it. it was one where a boy takes girl's clothes

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>>25062068
>The Sorrows of Young Werther was almost entirely inspired by British writers
>Schiller was almost entirely inspired by British writers

>>25063080
Yeah
Read >>25062070 >>25062071

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>>25063223
>Young

This is the same as saying Germans got their romanticism from English writing because they were heavily influenced by Shakespeare.

>>25063241
Since you don't read i'll repeat it again
>It was immediately translated into German at Leipzig and at Hamburg and was widely and favourably reviewed. The cult of genius exactly suited the ideas of the Sturm und Drang movement and gave a new impetus to the cult of Young’
>The young Goethe told his sister in 1766 that he was learning English from Young and Milton, and in his autobiography he confessed that Young's influence had created the atmosphere in which there was such a universal response to his seminal work The Sorrows of Young Werther. Young's name soon became a battle-cry for the young men of the Sturm und Drang movement. Young himself reinforced his reputation as a pioneer of romanticism by precept as well as by example.
Stop coping.

>>25060519
Heine is much less a romanticist than a welt on the movement attempting to deflate its steam with detachment and irony.

>>25063250
Young, Milton and Shakespeare were not the progenitors of Romanticism by any reasonable definition. English romanticism is almost universally academically agreed to have started with the publication of Lyrical Ballads, perhaps preceded by Blake although he didn't launch a movement Yes even the English romanticists were heavily influenced by Paradise Lost but calling Milton or Young or Shakespeare the father of romanticism, is muddled thinking, like calling Dante the father of romanticism because his Divine Comedy was so influential among romanticists

>>25063259
I never stated Shakespeare or Milton were Romantics.
Young, however, was a proto romantic.
English romanticism started in the 1750s and 60s with percy, ossian, young, thomson, walpoke,etc

>>25061861
Hölderlin went insane in 1806 and barely scribbled fragments for the rest of his life. Keat‘s output almost directly centers on 1820. I can only see a vague connection among gnostic lines with Blake which obviously shatters when we look at how resolutely un-biblical Hölderlin‘s project is, along with the light of his explicit and far more pronounced Greco-Germanic influences.

>>25063268
Dante and Shakespeare were proto romantics, if you please. Homer was proof romantic, if you please. Achilles was proto Byronic hero, if you please, proto Ahab and proto Heathcliff

>>25063301
Hölderlin was definitely not a Hebraic or Jewish sort of writer but that doesn't make him Neoplatonist/Gnostic, Hyperion exalts nature as spiritual. Like calling Rilke Gnostic

>>25063313
Yeah, I chose a bad word there which has other and more direct connotations in the history of philosophy. I was going for something which indicates how both poets sought understanding on metaphysical matters through their work.

What does /lit/ think of French Romanticism
I hope to read Chateaubriand and Lamartine soon

>>25063307
>is mindbroken and starts mindlessly shitposting after being disproven
Stop being so insecure

>>25063341
That you need to start with Rousseau as he's called the Father of Romanticism. He is the primary source from which subsequent French Romantic writers drew and extended their ideas.
Anyways, France has an exceptionally prominent and refined tradition of memoir-writing and Chateaubriand's are the pinnacle of the genre.

>>25063379
>you need to start with Rousseau as he's called the Father of Romanticism
Thanks anon, i'll read him.
Maybe because i'm not French, i've always seen Rousseau be carefully labeled as a proto-Romantic. Father serves him well. Bergson, in the Creative Mind, puts him alongside the Romantics which I found interesting. I guess it's normal for Rousseau to be celebrated as almost, if not, the first Romantic, in the Francophone world (and I kinda agree with that recognition)

>>25063378
But it's exactly what you're doing

>The English poet started romanticism
>but he wasn't remotely romantic
>okey he started proto romanticism

What do you mean by proto romanticism? Romanticism is describing the irrational and/or inexplicable with everyday or at least intuitive language


Young:
>Like bosom friendships to resentment sour’d,
>With rage envenom’d rise against our peace.

Rime of the Ancient Mariner

>The Sun came up upon the left,
>Out of the Sea came he:
>And he shone bright, and on the right
>Went down into the Sea.

You see the former as having more in common with the latter than with Pope?

>>25063408
What you're doing is just making up a defitition of romanticism to suit your argument
>Romanticism is describing the irrational and/or inexplicable with everyday or at least intuitive language
No it isn't.You just made up that defintion for this very thread. And if we use your retarded defintion as a rule then pope could easily be a romantic since he described irrational things with everyday and intuitive language (of his day).
Young was a Romantic because of his writings about original genius surpassing classical material.
And why are you pretending Ballads weren't being written in the 1760s?
Percy:
>As when a grove of sapling oaks
>The livid lightning rends;
>So fiercely ’mid the opposing ranks,
>Sir Bertram’s sword descends.
Mickle
>And thrice the Witch her magic wand
>Wav'd o'er the skeleton;
>And slowly at the dream command,
> Up rose the arm of bone.

>A cloven shield and broken spear,
>The finger wander'd o'er,
>Then rested on a sable bier
>Distain'd with drops of gore.

>>25063408
And criticising Young for his blank verse while ignoring that Wordsworth's prelude is in the exact same meter is quite hilarious

>>25063451
>romanticism is le undefinable because it is le too special to be defined, because otherwise my nebulous and laughable suggestion that Young is a quasi romanticist would make no sense

>posts a bunch of excerpts that used mostly everyday words then, but metered and rhymed

Let's return again to Young and again ask, does he have more in common with your experts, or Pope?

>Death’s gallery! (might I dare to call it so)
>With dismal doubt, and sable terror, hung;
>Sick hope’s pale lamp its only glimmering ray:
>There, fate my melancholy walk ordain’d,
>Forbid self-love itself to flatter, there.
>How oft I gazed, prophetically sad!
>How oft I saw her dead, while yet in smiles!
>In smiles she sunk her grief to lessen mine.

The imagery and vocabulary used in your excerpts are obviously far more intuitive and natural than Young's deliberately baroque verse

>>25063470
How exactly was I "criticizing" Young? The point is comparing extremely distinct styles, not about verse being blank versus rhymed

>>25063473
No, I'd define Romanticism as a rejection of didactic formal classicism. Not as "Describing the irrational or explicable with everyday language" which could be applied to Dryden or whoever the fuck you want.
Young's blank verse is intuitive and natural. Nothing complicated about it. And those ballad excerpts I posted are from the 1760s which predate your prelude which you pretend defines romanticism.
Let's return to Wordsworth and ask, is his prelude intuitive and natural?
>How Nature by extrinsic passion first
>Peopled my mind with beauteous forms or grand,
>And made me love them, may I well forget
>How other pleasures have been mine, and joys
How is this any simpler than Young?
>>25063477
Is Wordsworth's prelude extremely distinct from Young?

>>25063489
>Young's blank verse is intuitive and natural. Nothing complicated about it.

>he says in response to

>Death’s gallery! (might I dare to call it so)
>With dismal doubt, and sable terror, hung;
>Sick hope’s pale lamp its only glimmering ray:
>There, fate my melancholy walk ordain’d,
>Forbid self-love itself to flatter, there.
>How oft I gazed, prophetically sad!
>How oft I saw her dead, while yet in smiles!
>In smiles she sunk her grief to lessen mine.

I think we're done here

>>25063494
Wordsworth
>Withering the Oppressor: how Gustavus sought
>Help at his need in Dalecarlia's mines:
>How Wallace fought for Scotland; left the name
>Of Wallace to be found, like a wild flower,
>All over his dear Country; left the deeds
>Of Wallace, like a family of Ghosts,
>To people the steep rocks and river banks,
>Her natural sanctuaries, with a local soul
When Young does it it's not intuitive but when wordsworth does it it's intuitive and natural.
And notice how you ignored my points about simple ballads being written in the 1760s. Simplistic Ignoramus.

>>25063497
>cites an excerpt from the Prelude that was written very early when Wordsworth was just transitioning to Romanticism

Bravo, now cite an early piano concerto by Beethoven as proof Mozart was a proto Romanticist

>>25063511
>suddenly starts talking about music out of nowhere to cope
??????
You want another ballad written before Wordsworth's prelude?
Maria Williams
>Though long the closing day was fled,
>The fight they still maintain,
>While night a deeper horror shed
>Along the darken'd plain.

>>25059714
First half, clearly-- but it's the capstone from the previous century.

>>25059798
Francis Scarfe's prose translation + the original. Don't bother with others, especially Richard Howard's rape. It can be done, but copyright skiriting lazy publishers and now AI confounds those efforts. The main thing is not having established canon contender talents anyone would be interested in seeing versions of.

Lyrical Ballads (1798)
>Who lose the deep’ning twilights of the spring
>In ball-rooms and hot theatres, they still
>Full of meek sympathy must heave their sighs
>O’er Philomela’s pity-pleading strains.
>My Friend, and my Friend’s Sister! we have learnt
>A different lore: we may not thus profane
>Nature’s sweet voices always full of love
The language is so much more intuitive and easy to understand than something like Percy's hermit of Warkworth, written in 1777
>Dark was the night, and wild the storm,
>And loud the torrent’s roar;
>And loud the sea was heard to dash
>Against the distant shore.

>>25063518
>>25063531
These along with Blake are 100% more aptly called "proto Romanticist" than anything Young wrote. I have no idea why you consider Young and these examples to be of the same artistic movement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZsRr9YnYCI

>>25063616
So it's Romantic when wordsworth writes in layered blank verse but not when Young does it? And the main contribution to Romanticism Young made was his essay on original thought and composition which you've decided to ignore.
And i accept your concession. Romanticism did not start with lyrical ballads. Wordsworth's work was less romantic than its antecedents. Tintern abbey is less romantic than Gray's Fatal Sisters
Wordsworth:
>Of sportive wood run wild; these pastoral farms,
>Green to the very door; and wreathes of smoke
>Sent up, in silence, from among the trees,
>With some uncertain notice, as might seem,
>Of vagrant dwellers in the houseless woods,
>Or of some hermit's cave, where by his fire
Gray:
>Horror covers all the heath;
>Clouds of carnage blot the sun.
>Sisters, weave the web of death;
>Sisters, cease, the work is done.
In fact Wordsworth Tintern Abbey has more in common with something like Thomson's Seasons than it does with Percy or Gray

>>25064297
>So it's Romantic when wordsworth writes in layered blank verse but not when Young does it?

You MUST be ESL if you can't detect the drastic difference between the two and keep perseverating on meter as if that has anything at all to do with it. There is simply no other explanation. Anyone with a decent grasp of English prose or verse could pick out any excerpt of Young from ten other romanticist excerpts, as being the odd one out

>>25064325
You are confirmed an ESL if you think Young is any more difficult to understand than Wordsworth
>As when some stately growth of oak, or pine,
>Which nods aloft, and proudly spreads her shade,
>The sun’s defiance, and the flock’s defence;
>By the strong strokes of labouring hinds subdued,
>Loud groans her last, and, rushing from her height,
>In cumbrous ruin, thunders to the ground:
>The conscious forest trembles at the shock,
>And hill, and stream, and distant dale, resound.
Either Wordsworth is not a romantic or Young is Romantic. It's that simple.

>>25060493
The part where she rapes him was pretty funny.

>>25059714
Maldoror is the best book ever written

>>25060493
This anime made me overrate Baudelaire before going in to it desu. It's good, but it's not all that

>>25065939
Filtered

https://youtu.be/DrIRJ2vwvm0

>>25065877
>she rapes him
hot

>>25059714
Clark Ashton Smith taught himself to read French just to read this.

>>25059714
There exists on youtube a trippy and perfect for Halloween 60s concept album reading a translation.