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>>25065576
/thread
>economic effects of immigration on working class inhabitants of the host nation
you won't believe me when I say this, so you'll have to read the book, but immigration has little to no effect on wages in either direction

>>25065581
Then why does it exist?

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>>25065576
>>25065581
/thread, again
"immigrants make the economy worse for native-borns" is one of the most widespread economic misconceptions. immigration = good for a country's economy is more or less settled economics at this point, the debate's over "how good" and "good in what ways." this will likely make someone who doesn't know what they're talking about very upset, but that's okay, they don't know what they're talking about

>>25065581
>>25065588
Qrd?

>>25065588
Obviously immigration's very good for people who hire immigrants, but it's very bad for the non-immigrants who apply for the same jobs, but who the company would rather not pay to train.

You have to be some kind of boomer who hasn't had to apply for an entry-level job in years.

If companies are allowed to choose between hiring domestic university graduates for competitive wages or foreign national for uncompetitive wages, they'll choose the latter. There's not a single company in America that wouldn't be able to hire citizens if they paid competitive wages, but that would decrease the GDP

>>25065590
Immigrants make GDP go up and help companies make more money while spending less money which means economy good

>>25065581
>>25065588
>increase supply of labour
>hurr durr, price of labour stays the same
Yeah, you fuckwits need to read some basic economics.

>>25065599
But why are there no books on this? Are the kind of people who write economic books just too rich to care?

>>25065582
in many sectors the binding constraint isn't wage levels but sheer labor availability. think agriculture, think hospitality, think construction, etc. the counterfactual isn't "hire a native-born at higher wages" it's more often "okay guess we just don't fill the position." tight labor markets have constraints that don't resolve by just increasing pay for all sorts of reasons -- there aren't enough people nearby, there aren't enough skilled workers nearby, some jobs fucking suck to do, etc. also a lot of immigration just happens without companies bringing people over. as cliche and sappy as it is to say, many people immigrate because they want a better life for themselves and for their children
>>25065590
too much to summarize, you'll have to read the books. the second might be more of what you're looking for if you're in a hurry, it's a compilation of papers/essays from various perspectives arguing for different economic approaches to immigration.
>>25065595
>very bad for the non-immigrants who apply for the same jobs
the evidence for this is shockingly weak
>There's not a single company in America that wouldn't be able to hire citizens if they paid competitive wages, but that would decrease the GDP
obviously yes you could fill any position with native workers if you raised the wages enough, but this is true of literally any kind of hiring friction or preference. the question isn't "could employers pay more" it's "what happens in equilibrium when labor markets clear" and the evidence shows that when immigration's restricted native-born wages don't rise much in related sectors -- instead you see offshoring production, automation, sector contracting. look at agriculture, tighter immigration enforcement there doesn't lead to a wave of well-paid John Smiths picking crops, it just leads to labor shortages which means crops rot in fields
>entry-level job
I'm well aware, just got laid off, but immigration isn't the primary driver here
>da GDP
the research on immigration is far more robust than you think it is. doesn't just look at GDP, but wages, employment rates, labor force participation, welfare receipt for native-borns specifically. I got really autistic about this a while back and was pretty surprised that the evidence that immigration = economically good was so strong, but it is

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>>25065576
Immigrants pay taxes, start businesses, commit fewer crimes than natives (in many datasets), and use welfare at lower rates in many contexts.

>>25065626
>Immigrants pay taxes, start businesses, commit fewer crimes than natives (in many datasets), and use welfare at lower rates in many contexts
Except for the many other contexts where the opposite is true

>>25065626
And? That's bad. Citizens shouldn't want the government to import model workers from other countries. Companies should be forced to make the best of the citizens that the country has

>>25065628
>Except for the many other contexts where the opposite is true
That being in the EU. In the US, immigrants are statistically better than natives in crime/welfare rate and complementary to the natives in the economy across the board. EU immigrants are worse.

>>25065640
That sounds retarded.

>>25065614
It is incredibly hard to believe the shit you're saying having been to a hospitalitt job fair in my city and spent half an hour waiting to submit my resume behind literal hundreds of people.

The reasons why immigration is good for "the economy" are the precise reasons it's bad for everybody else. They don't hire natives to flip burgers in my town. Everyone I know from college is broke and unemployed. Do we have an alternative explanation for why this is?

I'm pretty sure Malthus was right and scarcity is real actually.

>>25065647
I think companies should be forced to train young citizens for full-time positions rather than hiring half a dozen Indians actually even if it's cheaper to do the latter. I think the young citizens in question should refuse to vote for any party who won't do this

>>25065651
Yes, the immigrants are taking all the shit jobs that natives don't want to do, and I guess that's unfortunate for the natives who actually want to do shitty jobs that are below their living wage.

>>25065642
>>25065628
>>25065626
Wouldn't the issue predominately be with refugees and low standards for international students? Those are usually where immigration systems get abused.

>>25065581
This book doesn't even say what you're claiming it does. This book says that immigrants do compete with domestic workers for jobs. It just says that the average worker doesn't get paid less as a consequence. This is an anti-immigration book

>>25065670
Yes, those are issues that countries are addressing. Like the Genuine Student requirement in Australia.

>>25065614
>obviously yes you could fill any position with native workers if you raised the wages enough, but this is true of literally any kind of hiring friction or preference. the question isn't "could employers pay more" it's "what happens in equilibrium when labor markets clear" and the evidence shows that when immigration's restricted native-born wages don't rise much in related sectors -- instead you see offshoring production, automation, sector contracting. look at agriculture
When you look at agriculture you see falling productivity as investment and technological progress (the automation you mention) is held back by artificially suppressing labor costs

>>25065588
> immigration = good for a country's economy is more or less settled economic
This is the neolib and libertarian bullshit they’ve sold for years, the same people who will juice stats and lie about crime to save face. They intentionally mix skilled workforce immigration up with illiterate refugees. They don’t acknowledge costs of parallel societies at all because they’re “paperless” and don’t exist in the stats even as they fuck up society. When stats they like to show turn bad, such as safety and crime, they start babbling about how it’s “perception” and people just don’t understand that they’re safer than they’ve ever been. It’s a flip flop between TRUST THE SCIENCE and haha not that science it’s wrong, statistics lie you know.
The slimiest most dishonest pieces of shit who will stop at nothing to flood the entire west and when it all blows up who cares, oopsies, nevermind, turns out their money was international, their kids were in private schools in another country, they’re insulated and will just move on like the rootless parasites they are. On to the next one to spread the benefits of diversity.

>he fells for the saliency bias
Educate yourself.
https://nntaleb.medium.com/the-world-in-which-we-live-7255aad3e18c

>op asks about ECONOMIC aspects of immigration
>thread filled with non-economic aspects of immigration

immigrationslop is probably the most annoying point of discussion ever, everyone exposes themselves as the cattle they are

>>25065576
They would never allow an honest appraisal to be published.

>>25065732
Several immigration critical books have been posted in the thread. They're severely underrated tho

>>25065679
I'm speaking generally of economic consensus on immigration, not of that book specifically
>immigrants do compete with native-borns
Didn't claim otherwise
>average worker doesn't get paid less
As I said, yes
>this is an anti-immigration book
no, it's a "immigration still good overall economically speaking but more complicated than good end of story" book. The other book I recommended has a few essays that take a similar tack. Borjas is the economist best known for being an immigration good skeptic, he's the guy who did the Mariel boatlift study, which is what most people know him from -- they shouldn't, because Borjas hilariously misinterpreted the data there and didn't make easy comparisons to similar groups for no reason other than "fuck you I don't wanna because it makes me look bad" lmfao. If you want to know immigration-skeptical econ, read the Borjas book, it's the strongest possible skeptical case IMO. I don't agree with it fully but thought OP would swallow it better
>>25065651
>submit my resume behind literal hundreds of people
labor markets are competitive, why are you surprised by this?
>immigration is good for the economy means it's bad for everyone else
this is what Borjas more or less argues, but he knows that this is too strong -- again a position I disagree with, but he thinks immigration harms low/no-skill native borns while bettering medium/high skill native borns. but even the guy who agrees with you has to admit that immigration broadly good
>do we have an alternative explanation for why this is?
degree inflation, field oversaturation, contracting sectors, there could be dozens of alternative explanations
>malthus
economies aren't fixed pies
>>25065699
this idea's attractive in principle but doesn't really work -- US ag productivity's been rising substantially over the long run, including periods of significant immigrant labor influx; the parts of ag where automation's been the slowest aren't the ones with the cheapest labor, they're the ones where tasks are hardest to automate (fresh-market tomatoes v corn, for example); when immigrant labor's been restricted we don't see a surge of automation/native-borns filling the gap, we just see crops not being harvested

>>25065721
>decades of economic research is wrong because... because... IT JUST IS OKAY

>>25065745
>low/no-skill native borns
So me and everyone I know will have a more difficult time getting jobs and housing, because in order to get the jobs you need experience, but you need to have had a job to have gotten the experience, so anyone under 30 who didn't major in electrical engineering is fucked. Even the comp-sci grads I know can't find work in their field, but also can't find work in service because Indian immigrants have oversaturated both fields

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>>25065600
I've got just the thing, anon ...

>>25065626
And then send their earnings back home to their large extended family.
Have you really thought this through, anon ... ?

>>25065758
like I've said a few times, I don't agree with Borjas, I included him to present the "other side" of the immigration/economics question. job market's rough right now, but indian immigration isn't to blame. just doesn't fit the timeline, doesn't fit the mechanism. tech companies overhired during the pandemic boom, corrected hard. H-1B visa program hasn't dramatically expanded recently, if anything the opposite. glut's coming from demand side contracting. afaik the service industry isn't predominately composed of indian immigrants either
>housing
this is a supply-side issue, not a demand-side issue. build more housing and the price of housing falls. it really is that simple. boomers won't let us do this because their wealth's in their home, so we're all more or less fucked on this one I'm afraid

>>25065769
Do you think that immigrants don't buy things or pay taxes while they're in the United States or something?
>but illegals don't pay taxes so
Don't embarrass yourself

>>25065769
Yes, remittances are calculated, anon. Immigrants are still a net benefit and aiding other countries makes better migrants and trade.
>>25065758
They also consume which creates better jobs. Higher consumption = higher wages.

>>25065797
Supply and demand are complementary. Deportations would reduce the demand, new construction would increase supply. Both are good

>>25065805
>higher consumption = higher wages
This would be true if not for the immigration.

>>25065806
Afraid it's not that simple, anon. Mass deportation leads to construction industry contraction leads to less construction leads to higher housing prices

>>25065811
And without the immigrants it would be less consumption, so less wages for both low skill and especially high skill jobs, and in the long term you'd go back to fewer jobs and high competition.

>>25065576
Economics is a silly little social science so all it has to offer is "more person = more consumption = more GDP = more good". Asbestos use was good for the economy too.

>>25065831
>in the long-term
>in the short-term
You only get the long-term results when you turn off the tap, until then you're bogged down by the short-term results

For everyone who is unaware, there are different schools of thought and methodologies concerning the study of economics. You should not be at the mercy or sway of any one poster here who posits a "study" or "textbook" as if it were the standard and objective view. The closest to an accepted view is what is referred to as the Orthodox view or Neo-Classical Synthesis.
>>25065588
That book is by an adherent of the Austrian School of Thought.. I, myself, am in favor of their Cantillon Effect theory, but I would be a liar if I said that it has to be true.
>>>25065581
This is NeoClassical. Again, nothing inherently wrong with any of these, but I think you should make everyone aware of the School of Thought of the authors and their methodologies.

>>25065667
Jobs below the living wage wouldn't be done, forcing the business that operate on this antisocial model to close and allow other businesses that are able to pay a living wage to prosper.

>>25065721
All true

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>>25065581
>Open mass migration
>Wages immediately stagnate as labor pool is now completely elastic
>"Nothing to see here. Keep neolibing!"

It's funny because economics is hardly a science, it's just a propaganda outlet for liberalism just as Marxist economics was an entire developed field with universities and journals that suddenly became void when the USSR collapsed, almost as it the "science" was just to dictate policy and justify it.

>>25065581
>We Wanted Workers: Unraveling the Immigration Narrative by George J. Borjas argues that immigration is a complex economic force with both winners and losers, challenging the idea that it's universally beneficial. Borjas, a leading immigration economist, contends that while immigrants provide needed labor, their impact is not uniform; they create economic gains for employers and consumers but can depress wages for low-skilled native-born workers who compete with them, making immigration a form of "redistributive social policy".

Also, how much this fucks things up depends on how bad you think dramatically skyrocketing inequality and lower social mobility is for a republic. Wages are not the only issue. Immigration is far more obviously a huge source of inequality since you have millions of people who tend to have more children to support coming in with low skills and no networth. Add in the they keep wages low in their main fields and rents high, and they they tend to spend all the welfare that comes to them in highly concentrated industries (making welfare for things like food basically debt funded pass throughs to conglomerates), that diversity makes unionization far less likely (well documented and used by Amazon, Walmart, etc. in their own leaked records), and fractured working class political alliances.

You could argue wages have only been hit for the poorer 40% and STILL easily argue that mass migration has been one of the major contributors to killing the West.

>>25065588
>immigration = good for a country's economy
The "economy" is just rich people's stock portfolios. It's not the 99% of people who have real jobs and depend on their wages to make ends meet. Immigration is terrible for those people. It depresses wages, it weakens their bargaining power by keeping labor cheap. This is only a good thing if you are a business owner or stock holder, where you would gladly fuck over your employees and pay them nothing if you could get away with it. This is the type of person who champions mass immigration. More immigrants = lower pay for everybody except the stock holders.

>>25065831
Yes, but that is because more businesses fail due to low consumption. It equally fucks over rich people and poor people, and is therefore more equitable. Endless immigration is meant to only fuck over poor people and allow rich people to get even richer.

>>25065881
Right, that's why you tax the rich. Higher tax + immigration benefits everyone.

>>25065891
No, higher taxes + less immigration

>itt: retards who think that they are separate from “the economy”
Faggots the economy is YOU. YOU are the economy. When you go buy lube to jerk off with that’s the economy. When you get your neetbux that’s the economy. When you go stock shelves at your wagie job that’s the economy. When someone pays you 20 bucks to suck his cock that’s the economy. You retarded faggots have to stop thinking that “the economy” only means “graph showing the Dow Jones Industrial Average”

>>25065921
A lot of the economy doesn't show up in the books, when people talk about how the economy is doing they are talking about how the stock market is doing

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>>25065576

>>25065626
>Immigrant-headed households generally show higher welfare utilization rates than native-born households, with roughly 49%-54% accessing at least one program, compared to 30%-39% for native-born households. Rates are highest for noncitizen and illegal immigrant households, particularly for food programs and Medicaid, often driven by lower average incomes and the eligibility of their U.S.-born children.

>>25065731
Multiple book recs have already been proposed.
You can't talk about economics without talking about economic actors.
The economy is not run by some invisible hand that impartially allocates resources.
Wages are set by bosses and rent is set by landlords, flesh and blood people with names and addresses.
Stop blaming immigrants when you should know who is really responsible.

>>25065934
Why did you ignore your AI telling you that immigrants consume less in combined welfare/entitlement benefits per capita than natives, and they've generated large net fiscal surpluses?

>>25065943
The problem isn't immigrants, the problem is immigration.
Solving the problem of immigration requiring removing the immigrants, even while not morally condemning.

>>25065588
Poor bait. The only benefit is "gdp up" which is a fake and gay measure of economic growth.

>>25065954
The problem is retarded natives who are anti-immigration because of a saliency bias.

>>25065959
Problem for who?

>>25065951
moving goal posts i see

>>25065959
nothing wrong with wanting to remove illegals and cull the flow of people coming in since we can't even take care of ourselves properly

what sort of IQ does one have to have to pretend the immigration debate is about anything but race

the economic arguments are fine i guess but i make it about race.

america doesn't need anymore black criminals, inbred muslims or pajeet scammers.

i dont care what number go up on chart, nobody named "pajeet singh patel virgay" or someshit is ever going to be a real american lol

>>25066030
>>25066024
Psyop, race is real, whether it matters or how is a question of opinion, but this undermines the undeniable economic problems of immigration, nationality trade that affect people whether they care or not

>>25066030
I don't care about race. It's gay.

>>25066032
absolutely no one would care about the economic impacts of immigration if the immigrants were white only

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>>25066032
im not saying that. im saying that i dont want some pajeet who eats soup with his poop stained hands coming to america, regardless of whatever fake degree he has on his H1b application.

same with somali inbreds, sudanese niggers etc. i dont give a shit about "number go up" lol., i guess im Abbey-pilled. i liked his idea about illegals crossing the southern border: "give them guns and turn them back around to go back home. tell them to start killing people and finish the revolution zapata started"

>>25066036
/thead. because in one generation their kids just turn into "regular Americans" (for better or worse, depending on your view).

its weird we have to pretend pajeets, somalis, sudanese, haitians are going to do that lol

they either turn into deracinated niggers with high crime rates (the sudanese, haitians etc) or resentment/identity obsessed PMC/email job types who will attempt to demonize white americans at any cost.

>>25066039
>i dont want some pajeet who eats soup with his poop stained hands coming to america
>same with somali inbreds, sudanese niggers etc.
Why not? I doubt any of these persons affect your life very much while "number go up" has significantly affected your life. You're retarded if you think otherwise.

>>25065582
To genocide White Europeans. They've literally been breeding Subsaharan Africans in billions to do it. Look at the birth rates.

>>25066043
There are 98,000 Somali immigrants in the US. That's 0.029% of the population.

>>25066045
gay lol
Go eat food at an indian poop hand grocer

>>25066066
And yet they stole hundreds of millions in tax dollars and spawned hundreds of terrorism investigations lol

>>25066039
Based and Abbeypilled

>>25065806
The pedophile in chief of the usa literally said he wants house prices to go up but you support him because you're low iq like all racists

>>25066114
No. I don't. I hate him actually. I'm not even American.

Are you okay?

>>25066114
???
who mentioned Trump?

>>25066117
>MIGAbros already denying their cockriding for trump
ok lmao. racists parties from europe and other countries are opposed to socialists policies. they too will ride the cock of the landlords but you can keep pretending here champ

>>25066122
what the fuck are you talking about man

>>25066033
You may not care about race but race cares about you lol

The Camp of the Saints is actually a politically correct understatement of what neoliberals did to Canada, the UK, and Australia.

>>25066036
brexit happened because of poles

>>25066165
It's spelled polls.

Sorry chud they simply will do the jobs people refuse to do

>>25065797
>job market's rough right now, but indian immigration isn't to blame.
To get any low level job like delivery driving, bus driving, warehouse or construction or anything in my country, you have to "compete" (impossible, you just don't get hired) with imported Nepalis who have replaced 10% of our formerly 99.9% White population in the past TWO YEARS. The contracts are such that the companies hiring them get tax break, subsidies, and they get financed so that they get free housing etc. and then they go to the work site and just loiter. Despite that they aren't getting fired because the companies (as well as the connected companies of politician/mafia families) are getting wild money to hire them and not a local guy.

Fuck you.

>>25066170
poles and romanians (which are white and white adjacent respectively) feel free to seethe

The bubonic plague led to massive quality of life increases for the poor and middle class who survived it, but economists would say it was a bad time for the economy because wages grew, and everything was less efficient.

>>25065581
>immigration has little to no effect on wages in either direction
You're right, I don't believe you.

>>25065667
>shit jobs that natives don't want to do
Natives don't want to do them because the pay is low. Pay is low because of immigrants.

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read substack

>>25066285

Trvke.

How does economics factor in when “Catholic” NGOs bus migrants from the border to small towns across America, funding their housing and basic services while they work under the table? Seems to me you:

1) Further driving down wages — no need to pay enough to cover housing
2) Sap housing supply and drive up secondary markets like used cars
2) Undermining the fundamental rules of a free and fair economy — getting you populist backlash with Donald Trump

>>25066346
boomers must die. they love niggers because they've been told they're the ones paying for their retirement. boomers the are sole reason why we're not throwing all niggers at sea and neutering all of Africa and India

>>25066114
>wants house prices to go up
money in developed economies is overwhelmingly bank deposits backed principally by real estate, so yes, no government will deliberately attempt to lower land value because it would cause the whole financial system to implode, and as long as inflation exists land value will continue to appreciate (as there's a feedback loop between assets and money supply)

>>25065581
Does it say anything about immigrants accepting worse conditions in terms of housing? Eastern Europeans or Indians regularly share a house with 5+ people to get cost down since they're not paid much.
A native worker won't lower his standards like that. Basically you have to live with mom or like a sweatshop worker to live on the wages that are stagnant while inflation (especially in housing, also in part because of immigration) rises.

>>25065805
>Sending money from one country to the other is good because... the other country can now buy products the first country made?
Bravo

Immigrants are not a net benefit, studies from Denmark and The Netherlands show this. You have to break it down and even then they add less than a native born person does in their lifetime.

>>25066285
True, a good economy for the rich is a bad economy for everyone else

>>25065576
>feed me globohomo propaganda
When it comes to subjects where alternative perspectives are actively suppressed globally there's no point in reading the accepted dogma. It will make you less informed but stubbornly assured you're right.

>>25066189
The majority of Romanians who come to the UK are not white, Bogdan.

>>25067198
You aren't white either

roman history
>import a ton of slaves from conquests
>natives are forced to find jobs in the city since the slaves do it FOR FREE
>cities are overrun by the underclass and turn into shitholes
>politicians from generation to generation trade hats
ayo wtf

>>25065588
It’s been “settled” by people who benefit from lying about it.

>>25065614
There are 2 options:
1) more jobs than workers
2) more workers than jobs

Number 2 benefits workers, allowing them to negotiate from strength. Allowing them to choose their job.
I’m not going to read or argue against your bullshit.
You people are serial liars.

>>25065753
You say research, I say fraud. Tomatoe tomato

>>25067231
An immigrant can produce economic output that creates more high paying jobs, like Elon Musk.
That one immigrant can outweigh the negative effects of a thousand Africans who on average cost the taxpayer money over their lifetime while also lowering wages.
By dishonestly obscuring the economic details while also ignoring externalities like the effects on culture, crime, education, local competency etc you can present a picture of mass immigration as a pure positive.

>>25067259
>like Elon Musk
Nigga get your retarded ass off my literature board

>>25065642
Therefore, Europeans are better than Africans and Asians, and Africans and Asians are better than Americans.

>>25067262
Are you people really this fucked in the head?
You can't even acknowledge the best example in the world of an immigrant contributing to the economy and creating jobs?

>>25066785
>>25066389
Yep, it really shows who the economists really seve (it isnt the truth that they serve), and that all they do is attempt to gaslight us.

>>25067368
You people are objectively braindead. You seriously don't know anything about anything and just parrot these media narratives mindlessly, about every fucking subject.

Lit is apparently an Indian board now. Explains a lot.

>>25067403
Your mind is so filled with worms that you can't even say anything relevant to anything I said. It's completely saturated with pure, deranged and incoherent media induced seething.

>>25067442
Why do you think this a reason for you to refuse to even acknowledge his contributions to the economy? What is wrong with your brain?

>>25067362
Isn't this just an argument from extreme outliers, survivorship bias, wilful ignorance and cherry-picking? How come you haven't engaged in the Solami fraud post? Or the Danish and Swedish studies regarding Islamic mass migration into the EU? Also, are migration and mass migration the same? You are just an ideologue and too stupid to see that. You literally fell into the matrix.

>>25067447
It could, he doesn't and he has benefitted the economy. If you can't even acknowledge the most easily demonstrable facts then why the fuck do you think you can contribute anything to any subject?
>>25067448
>Isn't this just an argument from extreme outliers
My point is that the popular propaganda "studies" rely on the extreme outliers to justify the worst. >>25067259
It's incredible how every single retard on this board on every "side" is completely illiterate.

We should hiring exclusively economists on H1B visas. That’ll turn the science around fast.

>>25067480
>he exclusively employs jeets
>doesn't benefit the economy
Objectively false. This isn't something you can "debate" by just spamming delusional statements over and over, this is documented, objective data you just refuse to acknowledge because you love being a fucking idiot undermining any position you have, including the positions we share like the fact that immigration is evil.

>>25067476
>popular propaganda "studies"
yeah, and your studies are not propaganda I assume? Can you name these popular propagandic "studies"? Does it include the Danish and Swedish studies? Do your studies apply to Islamic immigrants or non-Islamic immigrants? Because some people here are talking about Islamic immigrants and others are talking about Mexicans and the like. I think your studies are only applicable to non-Islamic immigrants and not Islamic mass immigration.

>>25067521
>you can only benefit the economy by hiring citizens at high wages
NTA but you sound like a drooling retard who doesn't know anything about economics lmfao

>>25067551
>im really upset so im right!
even the most hardline anti-immigration respectable economists won’t say “you can only benefit the economy by hiring citizens at high wages” because they know that’s not even remotely supported by the evidence. you don’t know what you’re talking about

>>25065576
Give me a book about the sea
I don't want muh water or muh fish

>>25067675
>respectable economists
so cocksuckers for the mega rich

>>25065581
fpbp
>>25065582
Poor countries have less developed productive forces, so the people who live there don't produce as much, and can't make as much money. However, if those people move to a richer country, they can get a more productive job and make more money with the exact same level of skill, education, and time. So workers in the third world have a strong incentive to immigrate to the first world. So workers in the third world immigrate to the first world.

>>25067859
it's not a good post. sending third worlders to good countries just drives down wages and reduces the quality of life in the host country and only benefits the mega rich

I always felt looking at immigration solely from the host country's point of view might lead conventional economists to think it's not so bad, since they do make the number go up.
However, I've recently come to think of immigration more in terms of the countries they're coming from. We're naturally getting the people who are more entrepreneurial and more attracted to our values (debatable) or at the very least our standard of living. So we're effectively retarding the development of the countries they came from by letting them in. Less democratic and more corrupt countries also have a safety valve for dissenting types who rock the boat, which also stifles prospects of political and social changes in those countries.
If the developed world collectively agreed to shut off the immigration tap for about a generation, I feel that would create a lot of pressure for reform, economic or otherwise in the sending countries. Yeah there's gonna be a lot of upheaval, but that's how it really goes in history - better to let that historical process play out than kicking the can down the road indefinitely with our current immigration policy.

>>25068035
Why would economists or readers in the host country be primarily concerned with the effects on the sending country? That's very much a secondary concern. There is no objective global good. Different countries have different interests. Different people in those countries have different interests that conflict and one should take one's own side.

>>25068035
why would anyone give a shit about the shithole sending country? jeetland actively tries to send jeets away because they make half as much on remittances as they make on their entire IT industry

>>25068057
>>25068050
If you're an immigration skeptic (as I am), then you should give a shit about the sending country, because you want less "push" factors that create pressure to immigrate. If the potential immigrants are staying where they are, then we would also have to spend less effort trying to regulate it. You would also take some serious wind out of the sails of pro-immigration advocates who claim that illegals are "just trying to make a better life for their families"
If, for example, Latin American countries got their shit together and industrialized within the next generation or so, then we wouldn't have this problem, since they would be able to keep most of their entrepreneurial population in their own countries. We've already kind of seen this happen with Mexico, which is absorbing a lot of Central American migration that would otherwise have showed up at the border.

>>25068073
I think we should declare war on the sending countries. I don't give a shit about the push factors and I don't want to waste my tax money on helping them. fuck them. they shouldn't be allowed here and if they are coming they need to be send back and their home nation sanctioned or worse

>>25068105
we don't need to wage war. just give em the ol' maduro treatment if their government is corrupt and install them with a puppet that will actually develop their nation, is tough on crime, and is politically aligned with us. this would work for most of the world, but as for chinese immigrants, just ship em to hong kong. once they're all gone, install machine guns on the border wall.

>>25065576
The only thing you need to know is this: a strong economy =/= a low cost of living.

The economy is good: you get buttfucked by inflation, high cost of living, corporate malfeasance, and low wages. The economy is bad: you still get buttfucked by inflation, high cost of living, corporate malfeasance, and low wages. Any questions?

>>25068105
It's because of the jews. The jews want to kill whites because they're scared we'll gas them for real this time. Imagine what kind of utopia the world would become in a few years if all the jews were gone. I'd manage to experience FTL space travel in my lifetime and see the stars

>>25067859
>However, if those people move to a richer country, they can get a more productive job and make more money with the exact same level of skill, education, and time.
This is only true for low-skill jobs, of which there are a finite amount. Furthermire, having an excess of immigrants puts a strain on hospitals, schools, and other services.

>>25066456
Sounds like immigrants make better financial decisions than decadent first worlders.

>>25065595
>You have to be some kind of boomer who hasn't had to apply for an entry-level job in years.
Unemployment rate in the USA is like 4%.
>Immigrants make GDP go up and help companies make more money while spending less money which means economy good
These are the scenarios:
Companies make more money -> companies invest more -> there are more jobs created
Companies make more money -> companies pay out their shareholders -> their shareholders invest the money -> there are more jobs created

>>25065599
>>increase supply of labour
>>hurr durr, price of labour stays the same
>Yeah, you fuckwits need to read some basic economics.
Lol, you're a dimwit. The first thing you learn when you learn economics is that the economy is not zero-sum. There is not a fixed supply of jobs. The more workers there are, the more is produced, the cheaper the goods, the more the savings, the more is invested, the more businesses are expanded and created, the more jobs are created.

This is like saying:
>Dude UK workers must be richer than the US because the US has 6x more people
>So the workers in the UK are competing with less people
No, retard, there are less jobs in the UK because there are less people, and more jobs in the US because more people. In fact US workers get paid astronomically higher than UK workers.

>>25068440
more jobs are created - with lower wages

and americans are facing a cost of living crisis the same as anyone, so no they are not economic titans compared to everyone else its not the 1960s anymore

>>25068355
Shame that mentality makes you end up in a place like Bangladesh or some other overcrowded shithole with a large semi-slave population and a tiny mega rich class.
Almost like people with that (and your) mentality are too stupid to think 2 steps ahead.

>>25068432
Workforce participation rate is around 65%

>>25068500
>more jobs are created - with lower wages
Are you actually stupid?

>HURR DURR THE IRISH MUST BE LOADED BECAUSE THERE ARE 60X LESS IRISH THAN AMERICANS SO THEY ARE COMPETING WITH 60X LESS PEOPLE FOR THE SAME JOBS
That's just not how it works. More people -> more economic activity -> more investment -> more jobs.

> no they are not economic titans compared to everyone else its not the 1960s anymore
Americans have literally the highest average and median wages out of any country in the world apart from European microstates like Luxembourg, and their take home wages are higher because of low taxes
>>25068508
Workforce participation rates are low amongst retirees, stay at home mothers, young adults who are students, and people rich enough not to work... Unemployment rate is the meaningful statistic because it only counts people who are looking for work but cant find it

>>25068961
It's because of the Jews meddling with the statistics.

>>25065614
>there aren't enough people nearby, there aren't enough skilled workers nearby
So instead of bringing them over from some other part of the country with a higher unemployment rate, you need to bring them from even further away, often the other side of the planet, instead? The distance arguement just doesn't make sense here.
>some jobs fucking suck to do
Your answer is to make some poor immigrant do shitty work instead of improving the work or lowering the standards of a native? Why?
>>25065745
>labor markets are competitive, why are you surprised by this?
Because the post he is replying to is saying there's a labor shortage, i.e. more jobs than workers, but his experience is that there are more workers than jobs. If there were actually more jobs than workers, the labor market would not be competitive for workers. One of you must be wrong. If you are the same person you have a contradictory view that you should examine.

>>25068990
>the distance argument just doesn't make sense
it does -- internal migration (people moving from one place inside the country to another place inside the country) has been declining for decades and nobody's really sure why. probably some combo of housing costs, occupational licensing barriers, ties to family and community, companies don't want to pay for relocation as much anymore, etc. nearby USians don't move as much, and immigrants are more mobile because they've already made the costly decision to relocate once. there's also selection, immigrants who make it through the visa system or who undertake the risks/costs of illegally immigrating are often unusually highly motivated (watch that youtuber who crossed the Darien Gap as an example here), highly risk-tolerant, and much more willing to accept difficult conditions. not trying to make a moral judgement here, not saying that native-borns are all weak lazy cowards, just trying to describe the very general person who self-selects into immigrating.
>so instead of bringing them over from some other part of the country with a higher unemployment rate
think of it from the company's perspective -- you could hire 100 John Smiths, most of whom don't know how to do the job, many of whom are addicts/criminals (again, no moral judgement, drug use/criminality's much higher in regions of US with higher unemployment), and who won't move five states away without the company paying for their relocation -- or you could hire 100 Juan Vasquezes, who already know how to do the job, who have lower rates of criminality/addiction, and who will move across entire countries on the mere rumor that there might be a job at the other end of the journey
>make some poor immigrant do shitty work instead of making the work better
I think we should make the work better but we can't do that by snapping our fingers. workers are choosing these shitty jobs because they're better than the alternatives and restricting their ability to make that choice doesn't help them any. plus "improve the work or lower the standards of a native" assumes those options are actually available at comparative cost, which isn't always true. but we agree on the thing you're gesturing towards here
>labor shortage or no labor shortage has to be one or the other
no it doesn't. labor markets aren't unified, there can be a labor shortage for skilled welders (for example) and a labor glut for filmmakers (for example) simultaneously. there can be employers who can't find workers because they're not paying enough while job-seekers can't find work because they're looking in an oversaturated area. etc etc

>>25068355
I agree. The best option for us is to limit their ability to make that decision

>>25068961
And the more jobs go to immigrants and their children who arrive as quickly as the jobs are created.

Also, it's bad when foreign entrepreneurs are allowed to start businesses in our countries because that takes business opportunities from locals

>>25069230
>available at comparative cost
No one is saying that it isn't maximally economically beneficial for a company to hire international workers over locals. It is. No one is saying that it doesn't benefit international workers to move from poorer to richer countries for work. It does.

I don't care because I am not a employer or an immigrant and there's no where left for me to immigrate to. We are saying these policies disadvantage us for the benefit of domestic employers and foreign employees and we oppose them because they are disadvantageous for us.

What you seem to be saying is that you understand that the policies are bad for us "in the short term", but that that's outweighed by the fact that they are good for "the economy" in the "long-term".

I am not an economy, I am a person. I do not live in the long-term, I am young now. In the long term, I will be too old and weak to enjoy whatever fruits the economy will be bear.

>>25069250
>I am not an economy, I am a person
nobody's asking you to be an economy. the point of economic analysis is to figure out what's actually happening to people. when economic analysis shows us that immigration doesn't significantly harm native wages, they're not talking GDP, they're talking about the wages of native-borns, ie you. you're treating "the economy" as a free-floating abstraction but it's not. it's you, your life, your work
>disadvantageous for us
not really, no. the data doesn't support this at all. you're treating the political economy as employers + immigrants benefit = natives lose. but native-borns aren't a unified bloc with unified interests. granted, some native-borns benefit from immigration directly -- complementarities, lower prices for goods and services, dynamism of immigrant-founded businesses -- while some native-borns face direct competition. a college-educated native in a city's in a very different position than a native with a GED in a labor market with lots of low-skill immigration. but even in the second scenario, the data shows us that it's not meaningfully disadvantageous for native-borns. you're also assuming a zero-sum competition that just doesn't exist in reality. immigrants don't only compete with natives for jobs, they're also spending money at businesses that employ natives, they start businesses that employ natives, they pay rent that funds new construction, they pay tax that funds public services. it doesn't make sense to treat the competitive effect as the only effect just because it's the one that's most immediately visible
>nowhere left for me to immigrate to
assuming you live in the richest country on the planet, why would you immigrate somewhere? sure you can't arbitrage global inequality like immigrants can but that's because you're already on the winning side of that inequality in absolute terms
>I don't live in the long term, I'm young now, I'll be too old and weak to enjoy fruits
in the long term we're all dead as the saying goes. I get the frustration here. but again, the benefits aren't deferred to some far-off hazy distant future you might not live to see, they're now. the gains from lower prices on goods/services, from fiscal contributions of working-age immigrants in a country with an aging population, those accrue contemporaneously. it's not a tradeoff between current suffering and abstract future prosperity. plus, young people in aging societies are the primary beneficiaries of immigration -- this is a future benefit, but it's a very real one -- the ratio of working-age people to retirees determines the fiscal sustainability of the programs you'll depend on. in 40 years you'll be dependent on a tax base that includes immigrants and their children. fewer immigrants, fewer benefits for you in old age, simply because there's not enough money to pay for social programs like SSI/medicare, which is exactly what you'll need when you're old and weak

>>25069290
>the benefits aren't deferred to some far-off hazy distant future you might not live to see, they're now. the gains from lower prices on goods/services

>>25068355
sounds like a race to the bottom that only benefits the mega rich
>>25068351
the h1b and student visa systems were quite literally a plot by reagan's jewish head of the NSF to lower wages for stem workers up to and including phds

>>25068432
>Unemployment rate in the USA is like 4%.
unemployment is intentionally counted wrong. like not only does it have retarded requirements of you need to be unemployed for 6 months or less and actively looking and if you have a masters but are doing door dash or working part time at the grocery store it doesn't count, but the way they measure it is they fucking call up landlines and ask them so it relies on people answering phones.
inflation and unemployment are both intentionally incorrectly calculated because it's in the governments interest to calculate them wrong. just like how GDP is the worst possible way to measure what GDP is measuring
>These are the scenarios:
more like share prices go up and a handful of ultrarich jews get richer

>>25069350
Yes, that's what I wrote

>>25068440
it's fixed sum. you faggots were lying about free trade for decades and surprise surprise free trade has winners and losers and isn't just a win for everyone
>>25068961
immigration does not increase the economy or create jobs. it just replaces native workers with cheaper foreign workers and lowers everyone's quality of life while only benefitting the mega rich
you are cocksucking jeff bezos. immigrants do not create jobs

>>25068440
If jobs and labour are not a fixed sum then how do strikes work?

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>>25065588
Picrel shuts up any shit eating neolibtards

>>25069376
>immigrants do not create jobs
the richest man in the world is an immigrant to the US who employs over 100,000 Americans. you are very angry and it's making you retarded

>>25065614
>we need slaves or we will have a labor shortage
sounds like the people doing the hiring need to pay more or get deported
>>25069230
>USians
oh, so you are a third world ESL retard and that's why everything you say is wrong and you can't get jeff bezos's cock out of your mouth
illegal aliens are all pieces of shit who need to be deported
>or you could hire 100 Juan Vasquezes
hire Americans or lose access to the American market, you piece of shit
>there can be a labor shortage for skilled welders (for example)
there has never, ever, ever been a labor shortage. the issue is the mega rich not paying fair wages. when we had a programmer shortage and an alleged stem shortage (which was based on a lie) workers upskilled to fill those roles because they were good high paying jobs. Workers will gain skills to do jobs if the pay is high enough. it's supply and demand. idk why you third world ESL cocksuckers feel the need to cocksuck bezos and say that the mega rich shouldn't need to obey market forces like everyone else

>>25069290
>when economic analysis shows us that immigration doesn't significantly harm native wages,
that's fucking bullshit. 100% of all economic studies are intentional propaganda not based on reality. again, these were the faggots who said free trade and nafta has no losers
>not really, no. the data doesn't support this at all.
the data you are working off is intentionally false. these are the same fags who use that basket full of goods bullshit for inflation that doesn't include food, fuel or housing but includes TVs. it's a bunch of lies made by rich bankers so they can push for more slaves at the cost of normal humans.
> employers + immigrants benefit = natives lose.
this is factual and anyone saying otherwise is intentionally lying
>the data shows us
the data is intentionally false. I've never seen a single economic stat that wasn't intentionally taken in the most assbackwards misleading way possible
get bezos's cock out of your mouth

>>25069403
>sounds like the people doing the hiring need to pay more or get deported
Most of the people doing the hiring are native-borns, where would you deport them to
>oh yeah? oh yeah? well well well you're a 3rd world ESLtard and you suck off Bezos and everything you say is WRONG
>there has never, ever, ever been a labor shortage...
https://www.rlebrun.com/2023/04/a-historical-overview-of-labor-shortages-in-the-united-states/ lmfao
>...what REALLY happened was [describes what happens in a labor shortage]
fascinating mind at work here

>>25069350
>>25069381
kek, fucking cooked that lying faggot
>>25069398
musk exclusively employs jeets because, as he has said himself, he can get them to work under conditions that violate labor laws and can pay them less. he also has not created a single job because he did not found tesla or spacex or twitter, he bought them using his dad's emerald mine money.
I vote straight ticket republican. get musk's cock out of your mouth. immigrants are bad and exist only to be scabs. you already outed yourself as a third world esl piece of shit with the >usian line

>>25069425
>Most of the people doing the hiring are native-borns, where would you deport them to
south sudan or whatever country has the highest odds of them being enslaved and gang raped
> LeBrun Advisory Group
wow, that sure is a real source and not some rich banker faggots who benefit from lying. hell one of their examples is fucking coof, where again the issue was lack of wages
>fascinating mind at work here
again, this means the issue is wages and not a labor shortage. if you pay them they will come

>>25069425
>Most of the people doing the hiring are native-borns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLBjNF2eLo8

>>25069376
>surprise surprise
You say this as if there is some widespread, well known revelation that has debunked free trade. In fact free trade is almost universally accepted by economists as economically positive. There may be "losers" with free trade but these are isolated groups whose energies would be better redirected elsewhere rather than inefficient production that can't compete with overseas production. Capitalism in fact refines itself via producing "losers" who can't compete and rewarding winners who can, just like natural selection. That's why the system is so efficient and produces so much wealth.
>lowers everyone's quality of life
Depends on what you mean. Economically it's good, you could argue it's spiritually bad or something if you wanted.

>>25069467
>well known revelation that has debunked free trade.
it has
> In fact free trade is almost universally accepted by economists as economically positive
wow, jeff bezos's propaganda wing pushes for his propaganda?
> but these are isolated groups
you mean the majority of the American people?
> Capitalism in fact refines itself via producing "losers" who can't compete and rewarding winners who can, just like natural selection. That's why the system is so efficient and produces so much wealth.
making the American people impoverished so a handful of faggots can get mega rich is not a good system. the point of an economy is to make sure everyone can live and eat. if it isn't doing that it isn't working well. the economy exists to serve humans, humans do not exist to serve the economy
>Depends on what you mean. Economically it's good, you could argue it's spiritually bad or something if you wanted.
see above. the living standards for Americans have dropped significantly since H1Bs, student visas, the 1965 immigration law and NAFTA were created. If the economy is not producing better living standards, it's failing. the economy exists to benefit humans, humans do not exist to benefit the economy

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>>25068440
>The first thing you learn when you learn economics
... is pic related.
You must have skipped that lesson.

>>25069521
Lol you have to substantiate that, America is the country with one of the highest median and average wages, low unemployment, highest GDP per capita, highest desirability for investment etc.
>handful of faggots can get mega rich
Lol a handful of people getting mega rich at the expense of everyone else is exactly what free trade prevents. If I can buy a car from China for 20k and an equivalent car in America costs 30k, every car I buy from China I and my fellow citizens save 10k. We then put that 10k in our banks or investment accounts which will be invested in productive businesses that actually are competitive.
The people hurt by this are the auto industry, who either have to become more efficient or redirect their energies elsewhere.
Restricting free trade protects that special group of people against the interests of everyone else. That's the point.
But you can't see this because you're an emotional leftist woman.

>>25069524
Idiot, the influx of people who are economic agents and will work, invest, and consume creates a demand for goods and services and increases production which in turn gives opportunities for businesses to expand and new businesses to arise.

If your theory were true then the people in Greenland would be the richest in the world with the highest salaries. There are 6000x more people in the USA than in Greenland, so by your logic the supply of labour is so low there that they must be getting insanely high wages compared to Americans right.... right?

>>25069557
Greenland has less goods to exploit

>>25069557
Also, while it may seem that Greenland has a low population density, the population density in Greenland is very high if you subtract all the worthless land

>>25069537
>America is the country with one of the highest median and average wages
cool and it doesn't help that cost of living is so fucking high and wages haven't kept up with productivity to the point where most Americans today are making less than their parents were.
>low unemployment
bullshit statistic. unemployment is intentionally calculated wrong and undercounted
> highest GDP per capita,
GDP is an intentionally terrible measurement. GNP is also ass and the fact GDP is worse just shows what a terrible and useless measurement it is.
>Lol a handful of people getting mega rich at the expense of everyone else is exactly what free trade prevents
it fucking doesn't. see what's fucking happening now
>If I can buy a car from China for 20k
china is using currency manipulation and government subsidies to dump cars and solar panels and I'd assume other stuff onto foreign markets for less than they cost to make in order to kill domestic industry. There are vids of obongo bitching about this. it's why china is basically the only country that makes solar panels. Trump intentionally shat up the WTO over it in 2019 and no one fixed it, not brandon, not yurop, even though brandon could have via EO because everyone is pissed about it. No one of consequence has tried to fix or replace the WTO. Go look at the countries who agreed to the new framework, it's like albania and nigeria and nations like that.
>The people hurt by this are the auto industry,
so the workers, Americans are hurt by this.
free trade is a race to the bottom at the expense of the workers. it's for wanna be robber barons to get richer while everyone else gets poorer
>Restricting free trade protects that special group of people against the interests of everyone else.
it protects American workers against the mega rich. you faggot
>But you can't see this because you're an emotional leftist woman.
you already outed yourself as a third world homosexual with the >USians comment. leftists like you love free trade. it's the marxist ideal of the international worker being oppressed by the communist party. you are a huge fucking faggot and you can't get bezos's cock out of your third world mouth

>>25069557
>everyone is just an individual economic unit
>more economic units means more money for daddy musk and daddy bezos
>nevermind it's a race to the bottom for the workers

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>>25069415
>immigration is BAD for the economy!
>decades of economic research and data does not support this whatsoever
>REEEEEEEEE THE DATA IS WRONG AND FAKE AND BULLSHIT AND LYING AND FAKED AND WRONG AND YOU'RE A COCKSUCKER REEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Ok
>basket full of goods doesn't include food, fuel, housing
all three of these things are in the consumer price index. I understand that you're very upset about immigrants but you owe it to yourself to not sound like a total retard when making your case
>>25069426
>musk did not create a single job because he bought his businesses so there
it doesn't make any sense to say this. if you buy a business and expand it, you created the jobs that result from that expansion. this is a very simple concept to understand
>only ESLs say USian so you're a piece of shit so there!
USian is shorter than American and I'm typing a lot, not sure what to tell you
>you're sucking musk's cock too!!!
what is it with you and cocksucking? I don't like Musk, he was just a very easy example
>I vote straight ticket republican
we can tell
>>25069433
>let's deport american business owners to south sudan
you can't deport a citizen, definitionally
>your source is fake because... because... IT JUST IS OKAY
lol
>it's not a labor shortage! it's [what happens during a labor shortage, ie demand for labor goes up meaning the price of labor goes up]
the funniest part of all this is you denying the existence of labor shortages while describing exactly what a labor shortage is and does

>>25069572
>>decades of economic research and data does not support this whatsoever
go look up the reproducibility crisis. economics is a soft science. there is no such thing as economic research. it's all intentionally fake propaganda to benefit the mega rich you fucking bootlicker. if immigration is good, why has the quality of life dropped for Americans since the 1965 immigration law? Why are Americans making less than their parents? Why do the NSF docs from the 1980s talk about increasing immigration to lower American stem worker wages?
fucking bootlicking faggot. you aren't arguing from a place of evidence or data. you are arguing based on intentional propaganda.
>all three of these things are in the consumer price index
you really think inflation was only like 5% or whatever lie they said it was over the past 5 years? holy shit you are retarded. everything more than doubled in price. the CPI is an intentionally bad way to measure inflation because it was created by politicians so they could say they were doing a good job.
>I understand that you're very upset about immigrants but
you are a lying piece of shit. the CPI intentionally includes shit like TVs so they can say the number is going down when it isn't. it doesn't properly weight shit people actually need like food, housing or fuel, you bootlicker
>it doesn't make any sense to say this
he didn't fucking do shit. all he did was buy the companies and fire people to juice the stock prices.
>USian is shorter
only thirdies write USian. I've never seen an American write that. you are clearly a third world ESL cocksucker. you got outed. take the L nonAmerican. It's only 3 letters shorter and lit lets you go over 2000 characters you third worlder
>what is it with you and cocksucking? I don't like Musk
then why do you have Musk's cock in your mouth, thirdie?
>we can tell
cool. so you agree open borders and free trade is left wing shit.
>you can't deport a citizen,
pretty sure you can put them on a plane to south sudan.
>your source is fake because... because... IT JUST IS OKAY
>lol
it's literally a random ass consulting firm that has no credentials or authority and the article itself says fucking nothing and has no sources or data. it's a fucking blog post made by a company trying to sell a product. makes sense that a third worlder like you can't tell the difference. really calls into question all of these "studies" you have been illuding to but not citing
>the funniest part of all this is you denying the existence of labor shortages while describing exactly what a labor shortage is and does
that's not a labor shortage, it's a pay shortage and it can be fixed with domestic workers and without immigration or free trade by the market paying correct market wages instead of artificially deflated wages. the invisible hand of the market provides, but that causes richfags like musk and bezos and their bootlickers, like you, to cry

Do you want AI and robots to replace immigrants?

>>25069604
yeah. AI and Robots have the exact same labor market issues as immigrants so there would be no difference on that front, but AI and Robots would have none of the social issues immigrants cause, which is a massive negative with immigrants.

>>25069563
>>25069560
It doesn't matter. Say Ireland then. Irish people should be much better paid than Americans on your assumption. There are 60x more Americans than Irish, so that means Irish people are dealing with 60x less competition for jobs! Oh wait... there are less jobs in Ireland because there are less people, and more in America because more people, and Americans actually get paid way more than Irish.
>>25069564
>dump cars
This is the funniest talking point ever. So China is giving us a gift at great expense to themselves and were supposed to be mad? Especially as all the savings we get from these supposedly dumped cars then stimulate growth in other sectors of our own economy.
This argument could just as easily be used against technology: you're putting the peasant out of work by using automated agriculture! The traditional peasant farm can't compete!
Who cares? There is no difference between cheap goods and wealth. A man is wealthy if things are cheap for him. He is poor if things are expensive for him. By getting cheap goods from abroad we become wealthier.
>nobody but China produces solar panels
Another nonsense argument, even if true. Unless essential for national security we shouldn't care about this whatsoever. The economy should be thought of abstractly, this type of thinking is low IQ.
>so the workers, Americans are hurt by this
Emotional woman logic. It's funny how you talk about "the workers" when it suits you and "the evil rich capitalists" otherwise, even though the auto industry is ran by capitalists. Anyway, yes, free trade may result in certain inefficient sectors of the economy being hurt, just like any other form of economic competition in capitalism, but the workers will find another job and everyone will be better off for it.
(BTW the auto industry in the USA would not completely collapse for lack of tariffs, I was just using this as a thought experiment).

>>25069557
Maybe you should learn the basic lessons of the thread before replying.
>>25065769

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>>25069588
>economics is FAKE PROPAGANDA because if it was REAL then things would be BETTER so THERE
I don't know what to say to this because it's so powerfully retarded. "If medical research was real, then how come people die? It's propaganda checkmate libtard"
>inflation numbers are LIES because PRICE GO UP
yes, prices went up, that is what inflation is
>cpi is an intentionally bad way to measure inflation
the cpi is how inflation is calculated. that and the pce. they both do basically the same thing, basket of goods and services
>the CPI intentionally includes TVs
yes, it does, because that's something people buy. the entire point is that it's a basket of a wide variety of goods and services. if it only measured like 3 things it wouldn't be a useful way to track inflation.
>it doesn't properly weight food, housing, fuel
first it was that the CPI doesn't have these things, now it's that it doesn't weight them right. food is literally the most heavily weighted thing in the CPI. televisions are below food, housing, and fuel. you can see for yourself here https://www.bls.gov/cpi/tables/relative-importance/2024.htm
>you're a THIRDIE you HAVE TO BE
sigh
>I'm obsessed with the idea of sucking cocks
okay?
>open borders and free trade is left wing shit
eh, depends on the era. open borders is left-wing, free trade started as left wing back in the 19th c but became a more right-wingish position sometime in the late 20th c. the GOP used to be proudly pro free trade from around the 50s to the trump era, but I wouldn't expect a trumptard to know this, or anything really
>pretty sure you can put them on a plane to south sudan
sure, I guess? it'd be very funny if this argument is how you found out that "deport" doesn't mean "kick someone out of the country" but specifically "expel a foreign-born noncitizen from the country"
>your article is fake because it has no sources or data and it's a blog post and
>illuding [sic] to research but not citing
the first two posts in this thread are me, pretty sure they're on AA/libgen. it'd be very funny if this argument is how you found out that a "labor shortage" is a concept in economics, not a specific historical event -- there have been several times in american history where there have been large labor shortages, most recently post-COVID, but again, a "labor shortage" is a concept. there can be a labor shortage in the market for high-skilled welding labor and no labor shortage in the market for car detailers, for example. whenever an industry's biggest constraint is the availability of labor, that's a labor shortage. COVID caused labor shortages in many industries; here's an article from OECD [https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/the-post-covid-19-rise-in-labour-shortages_e60c2d1c-en.html] that you will say is fake and will make you upset
>that's not a labor shortage, it's a [describes what happens in a labor shortage, ie the market offers higher wages to attract labor]
your mind is so interesting to watch

>>25069622
>This is the funniest talking point ever. So China is giving us a gift at great expense to themselves and were supposed to be mad?
it destroys the domestic industry and gives them a monopoly. did you skip the gilded age section of American history? wait, you are a thirdie, you never learned about it.
Look at what monopolies do. airbnb enshittified, amazon enshittified, google enshittified, uber and uber eats and doordash enshittified netflix enshittified.
when you let a company have that much market share they then turn around and jack up prices and make a worse product because they are the only game in town.
>Especially as all the savings we get from these supposedly dumped cars then stimulate growth in other sectors of our own economy.
where? I don't see any stimulated growth in the US or yuro economy
>This argument could just as easily be used against technology:
that's a fucking non sequitur because better tech at the time lead to better jobs that paid more than subsistence farming
>Who cares? There is no difference between cheap goods and wealth. A man is wealthy if things are cheap for him. He is poor if things are expensive for him. By getting cheap goods from abroad we become wealthier.
which is why 35 years of free trade and neoliberalism has lead to Americans having less money to buy shit? Americans living in worse conditions than their parents?
>even if true.
holy shit you are a fucking gay and retarded faggot who can't get musk's cock out of you mouth. if it's a nonissue why did obongo, yurop, brandon and trump all seethe about it?
>Emotional woman logic.
this doesn't work after you outed yourself as a third worlder with the >USian comment. there's no insult you can throw that's worse than what you are IRL.
>It's funny how you talk about "the workers" when it suits you
I am a worker, you bootlicking faggot. I assume you work too when you aren't blowing musk and licking bezos's boots
> Anyway, yes, free trade may result in certain inefficient sectors of the economy being hurt,
you mean the entire US economy
>but the workers will find another job and everyone will be better off for it.
gunna need a source on this. where are those better jobs for the auto workers? I'm not seeing them. I see a ton of Americans who were fucked by NAFTA and I don't see any better jobs anywhere. I see a generation of Americans who are worse off than their parents. I see that free trade has made living conditions in the US worse

>>25065590
The lie that there's continuous growth and an absence of zero-sum games. Don't believe your lying eyes type stuff.

>>25069623
Remittances (like all foreign trade) are made up for by exports. You just have to think it through for 5 seconds to see why.

A Mexican works in the US and sends his money back to his wife. He doesn't send dollars, though, because his wife can't spend them, so he first converts his dollars to pesos and sends those.

Now where does the currency exchange office get their pesos? From an American businessman who exported his products into Mexico and got Pesos in return, and then sold those Pesos to the exchanger for dollars.

So if we remove the monetary abstractions what happened is this:

An American business sent exports to Mexico
Mexico paid us back by sending labour


Or to put it another way
We sent Mexico goods
Mexico sent us worthless Pesos
We redeemed those Pesos by employing a Mexican to do labour for us

Of course "us" and "them" is not correct as these are all individual transactions.

This is the problem with economics. It is a beautiful discipline revealing the hidden structure behind things but it requires too much of a high IQ for most people to understand. They will rather follow demagogues who tell them trade and immigrants are the problem.

>>25065600
Economics can't even monetize carbon emissions in an actionable way and we're supposed to believe it can prove mass immigration is good for society? Lol.

>>25069665
>Economics can't even monetize carbon emissions in an actionable way
not economists' fault that politicians don't want to implement a carbon tax

>>25065576
The Unprotected Class barely touches on it but does make a good case for this. They touch on the Civil Rights Act, Discrimination Law, and how an increasingly diverse America further disadvantages the vanishing white majority who find themselves economically locked out of progression. This touches more on wokeness and law as implemented and then the incentives businesses have to employ non-whites, especially nonwhite-men.

I find that while these next two recommendations don't directly tackle immigration, you can consider then the few remaining jobs taken by immigrants to have a more outsize effect than if these jobs/fields had remained domestic. Both cut deeply into the myth of 'Most Prosperous Time In History' that Libs love to cling to. This is their Mandate, that their policies deliver prosperity. It is why they depict forefathers as ignorant, filthy savages, when they were anything but. I am assuming your motivations here in recommending these, but believe I am on the money.

For some good further reading, there's Freakonomics, which is a brainlet book and podcast, but they had on MIT Labor Economist David Autor who brought up some interesting perspectives just on the number of jobs. This was more to do with offshoring than immigration.
https://freakonomics.com/podcast/did-china-eat-americas-jobs/
Then there's this Paladium article discussing GDP, which is more in line with internationalism and errors with how we're tracking GDP and Value Added GDP and so on, and how it's gamed.
https://www.palladiummag.com/2025/10/03/how-gdp-hides-industrial-decline/
Remember migrants will never perceive the decline. They only just showed up and are thrilled the air isn't poison. It's easy to convince them.
Remember, "The Economy" is broadly gamified and is not a good metric due to Goodheart's Law.

>>25069655
How are Americans worse off than their parents?
>inb4 house prices
House prices per square footage did not rise when you control for size of household. People don't get married young or have kids anymore and generally demand bigger, more luxurious houses.

>>25065921
This is the most important reply in this thread.

>>25069645
>I don't know what to say to this because
straw man. economic research isn't based on a hard science and it isn't reproduced. you aren't arguing from a place of data, you are arguing for propaganda and then pushing a strawman. And a ton of medical research also turns out to be wrong because surprise, someone has a vested financial interest in certain results so the data will be tortured until it conforms
>yes, prices went up, that is what inflation is
prices went up by way more than the official inflation numbers
>the cpi is how inflation is calculated. that and the pce. they both do basically the same thing, basket of goods and services
and they do it in an intentionally shitty way to make inflation look lower and to make politicians look better. when the measurement is the target it isn't a good metric.
>yes, it does, because that's something people buy.
I haven't bought a fucking TV in a decade but I eat everyday. the CPI is intentionally weighted in a retarded way to make the metric look better for politicians because tvs are a consumer good that drops in value.
>first it was that the CPI doesn't have these things, now it's that it doesn't weight them right
it doesn't. it doesn't properly weigh or measure food or housing. tvs shouldn't be on the list at all. it should just be food and housing you faggot
>>you're a THIRDIE you HAVE TO BE
>sigh
an American would never say >USian
what third world country are you from, because you lost every drop of credibility by using that term, thirdie
>okay?
maybe you should take bezos's cock out of your mouth
>, but I wouldn't expect a trumptard to know this, or anything really
see, more proof you are a third worlder and not an American. what country are you from thirdie?
>sure, I guess?
I know what deport means, you third world tranny. do you realize there is no physical thing stopping deportations and it's just words on paper that can be changed?
>the first two posts in this thread are me
and they are both propaganda, fucking powell. I noticed the sic. should I put sic by your >USian?
> it'd be very funny if this argument is how you found out that a "labor shortage" is a concept in economics,
that's not what happened at all you pseudo intellectual. are you underaged? you sound like you huff your own farts and that you think you are smarter than you are due to lack of world experience.
> there have been several times in american history where there have been large labor shortages,
the only time you can ever argue there was an actual labor shortage would be during times of war due to men being deployed in war. there is no such thing as a peace time labor shortage
>most recently post-COVID,
that didn't fucking happen. there was no covid labor shortage. cocksuckers were upset that no one was taking their poverty wages and they had to up pay to meet the invisible hand of the market

>>25069622
Ireland has one of the strongest economies in Europe relative to its population. What matters isn't the absolute strength of an economy, but its relative strength. That's why it's better to live in Ireland than India.

>>25069645
cont.
> there can be a labor shortage in the market for high-skilled welding labor and no labor shortage in the market for car detailers,
if wages are appropriately and correctly paid the problem will fix itself without immigration
> for example. whenever an industry's biggest constraint is the availability of labor, that's a labor shortage.
this has literally, never ever happened during peace time
>COVID caused labor shortages in many industries;
that literally did not happen. it didn't happen. firms were just being cocksuckers and were refusing to pay inflation adjusted wages.
>OECD
unelected bureaucrats who represent the mega rich and who want every country to have open borders with india. it's literally propaganda
>and will make you upset
that has nothing to do with it. the fags pushing that shit have a vested interest in lying to benefit their mega rich buddies they rape kids with. the fucking email leaks literally mention trying to arrange meetings with musk and UN officials. the head of the EU just said she wanted to import a ton of jeets. it's literally the globohomo
>your mind is so interesting to watch
you are a fucking midwit and a thirdie. I have a chem MS. I'm smarter than your midwit ass
>>25069657
this
>>25069661
>He doesn't send dollars, though, because his wife can't spend them,
you can spend greenbacks in every country on Earth, especially in shithole countries that are getting remittances
>but it requires too much of a high IQ for most people to understand.
you are literally a third world retard

>>25065576
This debate is impossible because no one can honestly define what good for the economy means, but importing any kind of labor is obviously good for increasing the amount of economic activity going on in a space. Doubly so if the labor is pre-trained at someone else's expense.

>>25069690
>How are Americans worse off than their parents?
We are making less in terms of real money than our parents and everything costs way more. you are an intentionally lying piece of shit if you don't think people are worse off now than their parents. it's widely reported. jobs pay less in terms of inflation adjusted real money and housing costs are way, way higher (and if you have student loan debt which I don't have. I have a degree but no debt). I don't know what world you are living on where you think Americans today are doing better than their parents were at a similar age
>>25065921
>>25069694
if the economy does not translate into better living standards for the average American, it's fake and gay

>we can't train unemployed people to do skilled-labour because- we just can't okay
>you're assigned your skills at birth and also I don't like paying people money

>>25069724
>, but importing any kind of labor is obviously good for increasing the amount of economic activity going on in a space. Doubly so if the labor is pre-trained at someone else's expense.
importing labor fucks over workers. there are a bunch of National Science Foundation docs from the 80s under reagan that got released during the 90s where they talk about lying about a stem shortage so they can get more immigration because it will drive down American wages and with student visas giving residency/citizenship they think they can drive down wages to the point where it isn't viable for Americans to get phds

>>25069724
The economy is good if my quality of life is better, the economy is bad if my quality of life is worse. Obviously this is relative, but a good economy to me is one that's good for me and i'm neither an employer nor an immigrant

>>25069724
If employers are allowed to access pre-trained labour abroad then they're not going to have an incentive to train people here. That's bad for you if you're not an immigrant or an employer

>>25069670
>carbon tax is a feasible solution
Retard confirmed.

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>>25069697
>you did a heckin straw man
lol
>economic research isn't based on a hard science and isn't reproduced
economic results are reproduced all the time, what you talking about lmfao
>biting the bullet on the medical research comparison
lmfao
>prices went up way more than the official numbers
and you have no evidence for this other than "it feels like it's true so it is so there"
>they calculate inflation in an intentionally shitty way
how should they calculate it other than "let's look at a big basket of goods and services from a wide range of sectors in the economy and see if their prices go up, and weight the things that people buy the most often most heavily"
>I haven't bought a TV in a decade but I eat everyday
yes, that's why food is the most heavily weighted category in the CPI, and that's why TVs are weighted far less than food, housing, and gasoline
>it should just be food and housing
inflation is supposed to be the rise in prices of everything, all goods and services, not just food and housing. that's the entire point of the basket. this is like saying "doctors should only pay attention to your heart rate and your blood pressure and ignore literally everything else going on in your body because they're not as important as your heart beating," which is very retarded, but somehow I think you'll agree with that
>you're a thirdie because you JUST ARE OKAY and also I'm OBSESSED with sucking cocks
lmfao
>I know what deport means
sure
>there's no physical thing stopping deportations and it's just words on paper that can be changed
okay?
>you're a pseud and you're a kid and you huff your own farts and that you think you're smarter than you are and
cocks and kids on the mind today, huh? not hard to be smarter than a trumptard. it's possible to be an intelligent conservative (there's many) but to be a trumptard you have to voluntarily make yourself retarded
>labor shortages aren't real and also they're real but they've never happened in peacetime and the COVID labor shortage didn't happen and
picrel from the paper you didn't read. you haven't been correct once in our entire reply chain
>inb4 THAT SAYS THAT EMPLOYERS DIDN'T PAY ENOUGH SO I'M RIGHT SO THERE
again, yes, that is what happens during labor shortages. the paper argues that the pandemic caused labor shortages, but also that workers held out for higher wages, which worsened/protracted/contributed to the labor shortages. you're so retarded it's hilarious

>>25069367
"Richer" is a matter of perspective, really. The dollar is broadly fake and inflationary, and yet it is also what we are using to measure "points." It's a calculation, sure, but ultimately it may as well be closer to a True Measure of Inflation.
Instead of CPI which tracks consumer goods, track it instead to Asset Goods and Fixed goods. e.g., Gold, Stocks, Houses.
Granted, sure, Gold and Silver isn't perfectly stable, either. It goes through periods of shortages where pure gold is worth 'more.' There are periods of great conquest and discovery where gold/silver is worth 'less' (e.g., Spanish Gold brought back to Spain, crashing its value.)
If Asteroid Mining or Alchemy (I know it's bullshit, work with me here) or some other way of generating tons of Gold came about, 'then what'? And it's not like we're not both still pulling it out of the ground, and simultaneously losing it in bits and pieces that fleck off here-and-there, or someone's precious gold stash gets forgotten or buried and he dies before revealing its location.
I'm sympathetic to such fluctuations. Housing is a similar example. You can build more housing, affordable housing, favelas, slums where landlords can't collect, and therefore ownership becomes worthless. Housing can also become worthless, even in an inflationary period. (See Detroit/Rust Belt.)
Ultimately, what I mean to say is, there is no perfect way to measure these things. The landline method is already bad and worsening all the time. But there's also no incentive to measure when the prognosis is so bleak. Who wants to tank their popularity numbers when they can tweet about "Record Low Unemployment!"
What's stupid though is it seems both sides do this. The Vibecession crowd quickly hawk about the tariffs as wrecking an economy. Those same people who insisted we were in a recession are now saying everything is perfect, and it clearly isn't amidst mass layoffs and H-1Bs and more white collar offshoring.
Jews get 'richer' but even a luxury car now is all plastic inside, Chinese components under the hood, and Indian programmers. What is 'value'? How is it created? I believe Jews screw things up for themselves all the time. Very short-sighted people.
>>25069467
>"No there aren't any losers!"
>"Okay fine there are "Losers" but these are isolated groups!"
>"Okay fine those "losers" propelled populists to the forefront of the last 3 major election cycles of every major party, but-" (You are Here)
>"Alright fine it was a wash, please, just let us open the border though, I promise bro just one more wave of mass immigration and we'll all be rich bro, please please please-"
Spare me.
>>25066346
This is an interesting read, and likely correct. Books and publishing houses seem very ideologically captured, which presents a problem for an honest discussion. Tocqueville was right to worry on honesty/truth.

>>25069777
"Labour shortages" are good actually

>>25069717
>>25069777
>trips of truth
Checking myself.
>if wages are appropriately and correctly paid the problem will fix itself without immigration
this is not borne out by the evidence
>this has literally never, never ever happened during peace time
yes it has. I'll refer you again to the OECD paper
>REEEEEE THAT'S FAKE THAT'S FAKE REEEEEEEE REEEEEEE THEY'RE FAGGOT PEDOS REEEEEEEE REEEEE FAKE FAGGOT PEDOS FAKE FAKE REEEEE
lmfao
>I have a chemistry degree so you HAVE to take me seriously! I am smart! I AM! TAKE ME SERIOUSLY REEEEEEEE
can you hear yourself when you talk

>>25069747
this
>>25069753
ergo, we should ban immigration
>>25069780
the guy who owns oracle owns a hawaiian island. they are richer than ever

>>25069661
>Remittances (like all foreign trade) are made up for by exports
Except that the countries seeing the highest net immigration are also net importers.
>You just have to think it through for 5 seconds to see why.
What a pity you didn't.

>>25069777
>>you did a heckin straw man
>lol
and there we go again, you have no real argument so you have to invent a fake one, homo
>economic results are reproduced all the time
they literally aren't. you just believe propaganda and dogma without actually looking into any of this shit because you are a fucking retard. if any of this shit was real, why aren't Americans doing better than their parents?
>lmfao
I accept your concession
>and you have no evidence for this
I buy stuff. Credit card debt is up in the US, savings are down and multiple companies have talked about slashing prices because the bottom 90% aren't buying shit. that's not the sign of a good economy.
>how should they calculate it
entirely based on food, fuel, housing and gold and not based on shit like TVs that are used to artificially lower inflation. again, politicians get reelected based on inflation numbers. they are incentivized to lie and cook the books
>yes, that's why food is the most heavily weighted category
it isn't weighted heavily enough if food is outpacing inflation by that much
>inflation is supposed to be the rise in prices of everything,
it doesn't fucking matter when it's a luxury good you buy once a decade if that vs shit you need to live that you have to pay for every day/month. food and housing have a disproportionate effect on people's budgets and should be measured accordingly. credit card/consumer debt is skyrocketing. that shows inflation is up.
>>you're a thirdie
you could easily have posted a gun by now and disproved it, but you haven't, because you can't because you are a retarded thirdie
>sure
keep crying, bitch boi. would you prefer I use the term exile?
>not hard to be smarter than a trumptard.
again, I have an MS in a hard science. you are a thirdie. and we both know you are a thirdie, probably indian. because you hate trump say >USian and refuse to post proof of being American. fuck retard
>you haven't been correct once in our entire reply chain
I've been correct every time
>again, yes, that is what happens during labor shortages.
cool, so you are saying labor shortages are good and that we should intentionally cause them because they provide a massive benefit for the economy and that banning immigration would benefit the economy.
labor shortages aren't real. your
>muh terms
argument is the same thing as antifa claiming they are the good guys because they named themselves the anti badguys

>>25069788
>>trips of truth
>Checking myself.
replying to yourself. you haven't told the truth once this thread, thirdie
>this is not borne out by the evidence
it literally is. see all the people who went into computer science before the h1b flood. the market corrects itself. people will move to jobs that make more money. hell right now a lot of ivy grads go into finance because it pays more even though it doesn't contribute at all to the economy and doesn't make anything
>please read my propaganda written by rich pedophiles please
lol no
>can you hear yourself when you talk
can you, thirdie?

>>25069793
And on that island, the rain is tainted with PFAs/PFOAs. The best underage girl he can serve up for blackmail is a 6/10 mutt with lovehandles after Cloaca Genetica and modern diets.
His 'wagyu' steak is no fancier than a working man might've bought a hundred ago, before factory farming imperceptibly lowered the floor.
Some polyester-suited man-slave sweatily splashes sea salt over an 'frozen dairy dessert' whose ingredients were delivered by Sysco, inescapable even at the 'premiere luxury Michelin Star' exclusive restaurant where he pays $10k just for the ostentatious display. It tastes foul and he puts the spoon down after a solitary bite.
Some inebriated IQ80 mongoloid with a MIG welder lays a lazy bead over the cross he sacrifices a child to Moloch on, the Modelo bottle used as a little extra material to cover where he punched through.
The aircraft his pet lawyers used to trot around the country, fighting to keep the border open crashes in an airfield due to subtard IQs in maintenance and flight prep.
The clique you know and loathe have always had power like this, but never have they been so unable to acquire anything of real value. And hilariously, eventually, it will be a few of them against the masses.

Like Genestealers when a Hive Fleet arrives, they will dive headfirst into the gaping maw and let themselves be eaten.

>>25065581
>you won't believe me when I say this, so you'll have to read the book, but immigration has little to no effect on wages in either direction
we have x number of jobs. We have y number of workers. Supply and demand is always at work. When programmers were rare, they were paid a lot. after pushing comp sci for decades, there was a glut. wages fell. Simple as. Bring in foreign workers, wages fall. Foreigners will work for lower wages, win win for business owners. You couple that with "initiatives" aimed at targeting immigrants and minorities over native born majority, you get what you get. Anyone can write a book and prance a word game how its not like that. But we can all *see* it happening. More people competing for the same jobs. Wages falling. Rent? Increasing. supply and demand there again. Its *great* for the "economy" and people that own businesses and government. Its dog shit for native born majority.
>
the only way wages stay the same? If you realize the cost of everything has skyrocketed in the last couple years, and wages stayed the same. That, is actually lower wages in disguise.

>>25066346
good post

>>25069849
There's also chain migration where someone will bring in their older relatives and create even more of a burden on social entitlements as they exist right now. Look at how bad the healthcare systems have become in the UK and Canada. One of the main arguments you hear is the expansion of the tax base as if it repairs the social safety net but in actuality there's more strain.

The main thing to notice is how they manipulate the timeline to argue as if it's only a short term depression of wages/increased cost of living. It's obvious any argument related to such goes out the window under SUSTAINED MASS immigration.

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>>25065576
>control f
>not a single post on mmt
YOU ABSOLUTE GIGA FAGGOTS

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>>25069705
Do you just not get my point because you're stupid or purposefully acting dumb? Ireland has a strong economy correct (partly because it's a tax haven), but my point was that they're not competing for 60x less jobs than Americans because they have 60x less people and thus getting paid a lot more. The level of jobs in Ireland all things being equal should balance out with the level of the population. Same with immigrants. When they come here they increase the labour supply which naturally causes demand for labour to increase which naturally causes more jobs to be created. If you don't get this point and keep deflecting well I can't help you.
>>25069734
This is a lie. Houses have gotten bigger and more luxurious, and household sizes have diminished. People now live in houses that are larger per square foot per person than they did in the past. This js because people get married at 30 rather than 20 and don't have as many kids. When you control for this, house prices have actually fallen slightly since 1975. Moreover this data does not control for the 30 year fixed rate on mortgages, which was as high as 13% in 1980 and had been dropping for a long time until recently, getting as low as 3% or so in 2019. If you control for this as well house prices will have cratered for a long time.
Anyway, the solution is obviously to build more houses but government regulations prevent that.
>>25069780
I didn't say there weren't any losers. There are always losers in capitalism that's exactly why the system functions so well. You reward efficient producers and put inefficient ones out of business. Those inefficient ones then redirect their energies elsewhere and the system functions more efficiently.
>>25069655
>wanna waaa where are the jobs for auto workers
The unemployment rate is 4%. I know you keep dismissing this statistic because it doesn't suit your emotional fantasy but it's true. Any workers that were laid off because of globalisation would've found different jobs by now. And those jobs incidennly were probably a lot cushier than backbreaking factory labour.

>>25070269
>, house prices have actually fallen slightly since 1975.
bullshit. housing prices as a ratio to income has fucking skyrocketed well beyond inflation. hell my own home went up by 50% of what I bought it for in 2019. anyone who says housing prices aren't higher is full of shit
>Anyway, the solution is obviously to build more houses but government regulations prevent that.
no you need to build more commie blocks in white towns and only white towns
>The unemployment rate is 4%.
the unemployment rate is not 4%. they changed the way they calculated it last time Trump was president and since it's something politicians get judged on no one is going to fix it. you can lie about unemployment and housing all you want, but no one will believe you over their eyes
>Any workers that were laid off because of globalisation would've found different jobs by now. And those jobs incidennly were probably a lot cushier than backbreaking factory labour.
there are a ton of unemployed tech workers and tons of towns never recovered from NAFTA
>labour
good morning, saar! If you are going to lie on the internet, saar, don't write like an ESL, saar.
> There are always losers in capitalism that's exactly why the system functions so well. You reward efficient producers and put inefficient ones out of business. Those inefficient ones then redirect their energies elsewhere and the system functions more efficiently.
NTA
efficiency is when more jeets and when everyone is working 80 hours a week for poverty wages and needs to finance a pizza

>>25070263
What does MMT have to do with immigration?

>>25070274
>anyone who says housing prices aren't higher is full of shit
I know house prices have increased beyond inflation. I said house prices have slightly fallen when you account for square footage per person. And then if you account for the fall in mortgage rates since 1980 it's probably even cheaper than that. If you can't see the distinction you're unprepared for a scientific discussion, emotional female.
>no you need to build more commie blocks in white towns and only white towns
Unhinged.
> they changed the way they calculated it last time Trump was president
No they didn't, lol. The U3 unemployment rate is 4% but if you want the broader one you look at U6 which includes discouraged workers, people who work part time but want to work full time, etc, then it's 8%, which is still within historic lows.
> tons of towns never recovered from NAFTA
Who cares? Those people went and moved somewhere else, this is how capitalism works, it's the efficient distribution of energy and resources.

>>25070306
>labour
what third world country are you from, saar? literally everything you've said has been an observable lie and you have said
>labour
and
>USian
what third world country is your ESL ass from? you are doing the
>let me tell you about your country
and you live in some ESL country and not the US

>>25070310
I accept your concession

>>25070312
there is no concession. you said
>labour
and
>USian
you aren't American. the fact you refuse to say what country you are from points to the fact you are likely indian or from some other south asian country so you are lying about the economics of immigration because it benefits you. I'd drop this point if you just admitted where you are from, but you won't

>>25070317
I didn't say USian, that was somebody else. Science is about people's objective arguments not their personal motivations.

>>25070269
>>This is a lie. Houses have gotten bigger and more luxurious, and household sizes have diminished. People now live in houses that are larger per square foot per person than they did in the past.
Dude a tiny 80sqm apartment in my Eastern European shithole was $50k a few years ago, now it's $500k.

>>25070319
>that was somebody else.
no it wasn't. it was you
>Science is about people's objective arguments not their personal motivations.
cool, so what country are you from, labour boi?

>>25070324
This is a lie. Unless there were some amazing building developments around your town that raised the property value, such that you went from living in a small village to living in the middle of a booming city, I don't believe you.

>>25070331
>no it wasn't. it was you
Uh, ok.
>cool, so what country are you from, labour boi?
The question of whether immigration and free trade is economically beneficial is not relevant to the question of which country I am from.

I believe both are economically beneficial but I am opposed to third world immigration (at least the way it is currently done; I wouldn't mind temporary work programs) because of cultural, not economic, reasons.

>>25070338
>Uh, ok.
don't lie
>The question of whether immigration and free trade is economically beneficial is not relevant to the question of which country I am from.
it's extremely relevant. the vast majority of scientific studies are based on the personal motivations of the scientist or the group/person providing funding. that's literally the single most important factor. that's why peer reviewed papers often disclose who their benefactors are. that's why we know an anti gun group funded that study proving gun owners have huge dongs and anti gunners have micrococks.
What country are you from?

>>25066165
>>25066189
Brexit happened because of jeets and arabs (and it failed completely and utterly since bongs somehow managed to be worse than the EU on the immigration question). Eastern euros were just used as a scapegoat because its socially acceptable to hate whites and not browns but the actual people that voted for Brexit did it with the intention that it would stem the flow of browns.

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>>25065753
Well it’s funny because they do the slow drip of corrections over the years and the whole shrug-oopsie routine when the independent checks get too bad. Turns out the immigrants aren’t saving granny’s pension (again remember the intentional conflation of skilled workforce and illiterate refugees) but oopsiewoopsie who could predict such things? Except all the people who did and were labeled racists. The rape stats and particularly gang rapes fly through the roof and they issue humdingers like “weeell statistically most rapists are citizens”. It’s to the point they present “per capita theory” (yes they call it that) as some extremist fringe idea. Literally preying on ignorance, which is what they claim people opposed to their agenda do. Several countries refuse to track crime by ethnicity, those who do often turn second generation immigrants into natives for the stats, you only get drips of truth from the occasional outlier that refuses to lie (Denmark being one example) and obfuscate. You’re not allowed to even ask the questions in some countries like the UK.

And then when you suggest it looks a hell of a lot like a conspiracy of the elites to push the most unpopular policies we have for some reason, that’s a dangerous right wing falsehood called The Great Replacement. Because they have to ensure nobody can even ask why the hell we’re doing this at all. The policies are so unpopular that single issue parties can rival 100 year old ones in a few election cycles and still they refuse to budge, but you also can’t ask what the fuck is so immovable about this agenda they will burn their entire parties down rather than change positions.

>>25070351
Brexit happened because bongs are a race of self important island people who think that they're better than anyone else

>>25070333
Ok and?

>>25065753
>>decades of economic research is wrong because.
because it's propaganda and not science. we have a retard itt saying wages are up, millennials are making more than boomers and inflation is down

>>25070357
>It’s to the point they present “per capita theory” (yes they call it that) as some extremist fringe idea.
kek, an NJ senator did that with blacks

>>25065581
Complete nonsense.

>>25070357
>And then when you suggest it looks a hell of a lot like a conspiracy of the elites to push the most unpopular policies we have for some reason,
didn't the current bong pm say immigration was a an actual conspiracy that happened? Like he didn't do anything about it but he said the refugee/migrant shit was intentional and not an accident
the shit in the US is quite literally a jewish conspiracy. Like the NSF lead by ronald reagan's jewish budy literally straight up lied about a stem shortage in the 80s and there are docs showing this and one of his replacements admitted it was a like in congress in the 90s

>>25070344
I haven't cited studies (although the studies also prove my point), I've made theoretical arguments from my understanding of economics.

I've said:
1. Immigration does not steal jobs because there is not a fixed supply of jobs. Countries with larger populations have more jobs, all things being equal. That's why the US has more jobs than the UK. UK having less people does not mean they are competing with less labour. In fact, US workers get paid more than UK workers. This is because the more people there are, the more economic activity, production and consumption, is happening, so there is a greater number of businesses and jobs. For example: If more people exist in a country, there is greater demand for housing, so construction companies become more profitable, expand and start hiring. If more people exist, there is more demand for food and recreational activities, so agriculture, restaurants, recreation companies become more profitable. Etc. etc.

2. Remittances are made up for by exports because it is impossible to spend dollars in Mexico. America can spend its Pesos by importing from Mexico or paying Mexicans who send back remittances to do work in the US. It's just trade. Apart from imports and paying Mexicans for labour, there is no other way for the US to spend its Peso holdings. So when you export to Mexico without somehow importing something back, whether that be Mexican labour or Mexican goods, you have a worthless sotck of Pesos which you can do nothing with. So exporting is essentially giving Mexico goods for free.

3. The above also refutes your obsession with exporting over importing.

>>25070463
>(although the studies also prove my point)
they really don't because economics isn't really a science and peer reviewed papers on nonsciences like psychology or sociology are always complete bullshit with an answer before the experiment started
>. Immigration does not steal jobs because
it does. see the NSF papers from the 80s. they figured they could use the H1B system and student visa system to lower American stem worker wages.
immigration does not create jobs or economic activity, it lowers wages and deprives natives of jobs because immigrants will work for less money, sometimes an illegally low amount of money, in worse conditions, almost always illegal conditions.
>Remittances are made up for by exports because it is impossible to spend dollars in Mexico
mexicans accept greenbacks. all third world counties accept the USD
what country are you from?

>>25070466
Ok let's game it out

>Immigrants work for less money
Even though this is a complete oversimplification as studies show, let's assume it is true. Then what happens?
>Goods are produced cheaper
>Companies make more profit
>They either pay out their shareholders or increase investment

>Option A: increase investment
>more jobs are produced
>all of a sudden, the demand for labour harmonises with the supply
>wages go back up

>Option B: pay out shareholders
>Shareholders invest their payouts
>Back to option A

>Other companies also realise they can now undercut their competition as goods are produced cheaper
>They start selling their products cheaper
>Everybody's purchasing power increases
>So real wages actually go up and stabilise


Where is the flaw?

>>25070484
that's literally not what's happening, where are you from?
>company fires workers
>hires jeets
>uses savings for stock buy back
>that money is never reinvested, just goes into the hands of the mega rich
>windows 11 keeps breaking, like the fucking password button disappeared
>goods are more expensive than ever
>real wages are down due to hyperinflation
>tons of Americans, especially recent grads can't find jobs
it's like you live in a fantasy world divorced from reality
what country are you from?

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>>25065581
>>25065588
>>25065600
If economists had any clue on how the economy actually works (and for the benefit of whom), they'd all be billionaires.

>>25070493
Inflation is good because it incentivises investment. You seem not to understand this. If the value of the dollar stays constant then, yes, the profits of a company can just sit idle in, as you say, "the hands of the mega-rich". Since these dollars never lose value, the mega rich don't need to invest them, and don't have to keep the economic engine going.

This is why Bitcoin and gold as an investment need to be made illegal, btw. The only investments that should be allowed are ones that increase society's productivity, not wasting energy on bitcoin and gold mining.

Anyway, the mega-rich are good so long as they spend their money on productive investments which increase everybody's purchasing power. Their consumption spending also provides employment, obviously (eg the people who build the mansions, the helicopter pilots, the servants) but this form of employment is worse because it is not generally increasing society's overall productivity. I'd be open to tax disincentives for this type of spending by the mega rich.