Science fiction? More like soience dicks-in

It’s annoying how Wells keeps referring to the moon as a planet in The First Men on the Moon.

>>25302435
science fiction and fantasy might not be for you if you are looking for scientific accuracy

Reading the latest Dungeon Crawler Carl book is eye opening. Writing has gone to shit.

Shut this shit DOWN. We collectively agreed to shelve this general for at LEAST a month.

>>25302435
Is it kino? I wanted to read those old type of space book like from the earth to the moon to see what the fuck they thought space was like when we literally had no fucking idea

>>25302448
but the moon is not a planet

>>25302455
The title alone makes it sound like a shit read, what compelled you to crack it open?

>>25302484
there’s a scene early on where the two victorian-era gentlemen get high off of space mushrooms on the surface of the moon and then meet some aliens

>>25302489
Based

Alright, time to come clean. How many of you are alienfuckers?

>>25302486
Friends like it, and I've never read anything in the LitRPG genre. There are currently 8 books. The first few books weren't that bad. Honestly the major problem is the author started to want to give his writing an intentional theme and symbolism. This was not the case in the earlier books, so it clashes horrendously. Just tonal whiplash when it comes up. There are television hosts going "GLUB, GLUB" to his followers as a show introduction as a critique of both propaganda and capitalism, but then the titular character starts to have a river roaring in his head about all the death and destruction. I'm not saying he is a master of subtext or anything of the sort, but it went from enjoyable interpretation of the text to just... actual text, and he's fumbling it horrendously. Imagine writing a climax where you kill rich politicians, bankers, propagandists etc, etc, etc, and somehow fucking it up. I don't even know how he flubs it most of the time it just comes off as reeking with loser Revenge-of-the-Nerds energy.

put this link in the op
https://standardebooks.org/subjects/science-fiction

>>25302411
SFF SAMPLER OF MEDIA I'VE PERSONALLY EXPERIENCED (~100 post line limit)
If anyone wants a deeper dive into anything, let me know.

20 SHOWS
Science Fiction
Andor
Dark Matter
Orphan Black
The Expanse
The Orville

Fantasy
Awake
Game of Thrones
House of the Dragon
Misfits
What We Do In The Shadows

Speculative (Dystopia, Alternate History, Post-Apocalyptic, etc)
For All Mankind
Last of Us
Pluribus
Severance
Years & Years

Non-English
Äkta människor (Real Humans)
El Ministerio Del Tiempo (The Ministry of Time)
Лyчшe, чeм люди (Better Than Us)
Transferts (Transfers)
3%

10 MOVIES
Coherence
Edge of Tomorrow
Everything Everywhere All At Once
Ex Machina
Looper
Palm Springs
The Man From Earth
The Man from the Future
The Martian
Upgrade

10 ANIME
Darker Than Black
Durarara!!
Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
Gintama
JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
Legend of the Galactic Heroes
Outlaw Star
Psycho-Pass
Shinsekai Yori
Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann

5 ANIME MOVIES
Chronus
Harmonie
Maquia
Paprika
Summer Wars

10 MANGA
Berserk
Blade of the Immortal
Drifting Dragons
Flying Witch
Flying Witch
Fullmetal Alchemist
Gantz
Jojo's Bizarre Adventure
Made in Abyss
One-Punch Man

20 GAMES
FANTASY
Breath of Fire III
Chrono Trigger
Final Fantasy Tactics
Final Fantasy VI
Lost Odyssey
Shining Force II
Suikoden II
Tactics Ogre
Tales of Vesperia
Ys VIII: Lacrimosa of Dana

SCIENCE FICTION
Borderlands 2
Enslaved: Journey to the West
Fallout: New Vegas
Front Mission 3
Horizon: Zero Dawn
Mass Effect 2
Star Ocean II: The Second Story
Xenoblade Chronicles 3
Xenogears
Zero Escape: Virtue's Last Reward

>>25302608
um cool i guess but none of these are books

Still wondering if any literary fantasy or sci-fi has been written in the last 5 years

>>25302616
No, and thats a great thing books have evolved beyond pretentious fags like you
All the themefags and prosefags should be hanged

>>25302621
Then what the fuck do you read for?

>>25302622
For fun unlike your pretentious ass

>>25302627
You don't sound like you have fun, Anon

>>25302629
I do

>>25302627
Hm. Why do you describe others interfacing with art differently than yourself pretentious? I believe you're undervaluing your interests and hobby.

File: Screenshot 2026-05-26 003916.png (2.2 MB)

I normally don't engage with AI, but I have seen some clear AI images that are able to posses this otherworldly vibe that I feel like so much of our visual media is unwilling to actually tackle. When I read Jack Vance, I see truly strange worlds and places in my mind, but if it were ever adapted for tv or film, it would look like everything else that has ever existed in film or tv done 1000 times before.

>>25302643
Curtains unsettle you, pookie bear?

>>25302645
Where did I say it unsettled me?

>>25302485
In the classical sense of the word, it was considered such for some time.

File: 1691793891729651.jpg (537.5 KB)

>>25302643
I am a scifi character, and that character is comprised of outlandish adventures in the nature of consciousness and creativity. I have sought the strangest creative mediums to explore.

https://pastebin.com/vHKeTau2

https://npirl.blogspot.com/2008/11/next-big-thing-in-virtual-worlds-that.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkG6s0IhFxk

https://vimeo.com/129609470

https://dn720005.ca.archive.org/0/items/co-creative-evolution-final/Co_Creative_Evolution_1.05.pdf

https://i.imgur.com/gwggJ60.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/5f8fhr2.png

https://ia800708.us.archive.org/28/items/simsane-9.1-vyrith/SiMSANE_9.1_Vyrith.pdf

>>25302411
>Wtf did screencapfag really heemed the general?
No I just got tired of making the threads all the time and couldnt figure out a new edition

File: s-l1200.jpg (473.1 KB)

I'm in the mood for a book with a macho, tough-guy protagonist who I can live vicariously through. Any recommendations?

File: bloodstone cover.jpg (261.8 KB)

>>25302795
Karl Edward Wagner's Kane

>>25302801
Great recommendation but unfortunately I've already read it.

>>25302815
So read it again.

>>25302643
I suspect AI would work for about half of Weird Fiction. Something like House of Leaves, but not The Etched City or the Scar.

>>25302795
Richard Morgan's Thin Air

>>25302885
Thanks.

How is the Gap Cycle? Is it just Bakker in space?

File: 1657413870042.jpg (37.9 KB)

>>25302474
There is zero reason for this general to be up at all times.
>>25302616
You'll find quality work when you stop consuming only megapopular authors.
>>25302795

File: A_Glass_of_Wine_with_Caesar_Borgia_-_John_Collier.jpg (973.7 KB)

I'm not really into fantasy about rag tag teams of adventurers travelling around. Can anyone recommend me some books centered around, or at least heavily features, messed up people or families doing messed up things? (something like the Targs and Lannisters of asoiaf and the Feanorians of the Silmarillion)

>>25303095
Priest of Bones

>>25303095
I think Daughter of the Empire might be what you're looking for.

>>25303008
>There is zero reason for this general to be up at all times.
Yes there is, whine baby.

File: 1777495045656225.jpg (144.6 KB)

I just finished reading pic related and it is literally an isekai story. It's got all the tropes
>randomly transported to a different world
>MC's upbringing makes him morally superior to most of the natives
>has an intrinsic physical advantage over the natives
>has a special power that works exclusively in his favour
>MC is better at the natives' own technology and society and teaches them to do things "properly"
>MC gets a slave but it's ok because he treats her nice
>slave falls in love with MC, also she's a princess
>etc etc
I would not be surprised in the slightest if some of the seminal trend-setting isekai authors were directly inspired by it.

>>25302795
consider growing up

>>25303394
I had the same experience, and I also really disliked it. All the worst parts of old scifi combined with all the irritating parts of isekai

It's interesting how much of old scifi is effectively just portal fantasy or similar. It's like they didn't know how to write speculative fiction without first grounding it in modern reality first.

File: No Fun Allowed.jpg (132.9 KB)

>>25303454
>>25303394

>>25303501
I enjoyed the book thoughever.

>>25303501
I'd have enjoyed it way more if Carter had even a single weakness. He's teleported to another planet and instantly learns, masters, then dominates their culture, fucks their women, even tames their dogs and horses.

I'm fine with wish fulfillment, but this is the same level as a 6yo playing with an action figure. Every scene, every story arc, has zero tension or stakes because you know the answer will be "Carter solves the problem effortlessly"

>>25303525
You're demanding too much from a 1917 pulp.

>>25303619
I'm not demanding anything, all I said was that I disliked it and listed my main complaint.

>>25303389
No discussion benefits from petulant entities who can only communicate through insults and a need to get the last word in. And these threads are all cyclical.

>>25303631
>I'm not demanding anything
Then why complaining?

>>25303095
Gormenghast trilogy

>>25303637
>No discussion benefits from petulant entities who can only communicate through insults and a need to get the last word in.
Thats your problem, not mine. And there are plenty of discussions that benefit from that. See any highschool boy's groupchat.

>>25303733
>See any highschool boy's groupchat.
You're in a lot of those, I presume?

>>25303691
Are you having trouble following this conversation?

Someone posted about a book and its isekai qualities. I replied, agreeing, and mentioned that I disliked it. Another person - you? - then replied that I was being a grump or something, so I clarified why I didn't like it.

And now we're here. This making any sense to you?

File: 1779135324789989.jpg (48.6 KB)

>“No …” the Anasûrimbor replied once again. “Where you fall as fodder, I descend as hunger.”

File: GSV failed to solve captcha twice.jpg (120.7 KB)

The 6th actual book i read was Iain.M.Bansks' surface detail at 16 years old. Now 13 years later and at my first revisit it's still absolute gold.

File: warriors.png.jpg (60.4 KB)

>>25303394
You're right. Here's the book cover of the first modern Isekai in Japan: Warrior From Another World (1979).

File: 1764080756257267.jpg (1.2 MB)

I've already heard all of this before. But reading it in a different context, expressed slightly differently, its rare that fiction of any medium makes me think about how something can apply to life. Now the mark of true greatness, would be how it actually answers these problems its posed.
Also like how these are framed as cultural opinons and not some character or narrator forcing these opinions down my throat to accept. Makes it easier to engage with and question without getting mad.

>>25304234
Banks is odd. Most authors I like or loathe, but even stuff like the Algebraist outside of the Culture books is rather solid work.

Some of it you can tell he had an idea but no real way to end it - Player of Games ends in a glorified game of 40k in a burning palace amid a worldfire. And even if ultimately stems from a plot to disrupt a system in another galaxy that the machines find distasteful and started by tormenting a human until he was willing to cheat (but they'd still photoshop him cheating even if he said no to the cheat) in a game of space backgammon? It doesn't really land that well emotionally or storywise. But there's always something in there. Ironically I think Player of Games could have done with a heavy metal soundtrack.

File: 1777930253237331.jpg (1.2 MB)

Wow just an absolutely brilliant page. Just brilliant. This is a secret aspect of writing that I rarely get to talk about except to myself, so I wont bother to share it deeply, because I don't believe anybody here deserves to understand it as I do. But something I used to look for before I subconsciously lowered my standards, was whether a movie, book, show, or game would emulate and address the same kind of questions that come to mind for me as a product of engaging with that writing. Its a high frustration to find out, that the thing youre writing does not actually care that much about the concepts it is expressing to have asked the questions you've asked, or to address those questions in some meaningful regard. Too often themes are framed as something to tickle the intuition so that your bias may fill in the gaps, or so that the writing may direct you necessarily to one answer. Questions are an exploratory tool. It is a demonstration of an engagement with the range of possible understandings. Its not that directing to one answer is inherently bad, its when the exploratory part of answering something is skipped merely to validate a presupposed conclusion. I'm even regretting my "Questions are exploratory tools". They are far more than that unfortunately. Far more insidious than that.

>>25304535
> I don't believe anybody here deserves to understand it as I do
This is one of the many reasons why no one likes you here or anywhere else

File: 1760589511669818.jpg (271.0 KB)

kek wtf is a barefoot autist? the term is thrown here like its as foreign as hibakusha

File: 1772774475552649.jpg (251.3 KB)

Its very funny how many world building similarities I can find between this and Sun Eater, except it doesnt moralize as strongly. Just presents judgements as mere opinions of a set of persons, who's judgements are often given depth by virtue of where it comes from (prior dialogue expousing an actual chain of thought and principles)

I wonder if future sun eater ever explains this, but the biggest biggest problem about tolerating Hadrians naivete, is that its never explained or justified. Why hes the way he is, and thinks the way he does is never elaborated through dialogue or overhead narration, because even future narrator Hadrian is as boring as past Hadrian despite this supposing to be a sort of memoir.

Its implied that its because of all his learnings from Gibson, but first of all, isnt Crispin supposed to be taught by Gibson too? And second of all, didnt Gibson literally basically grow up with Hadrians father, and 3rd of all, fundamentally it is BAD writing to imply and let intuition fill in the gaps. That is skirting depth.

I might have to talk about this deeper some other day, but novel is a unique mediums where you can give SO much more information and context to a person than can ever be given in real life. To not do that, to me, is to not take advantage of the medium. I hate when characters are imbued with certain characteristics simply because they are. Hadrian barely takes after his enviromental conditions of nobility beyond not knowing that "shaking hands" means greetings socially for plebeians, and beyond speaking in a commanding charismatic way (which is essentially just a superpower, not a personality affect) Why? His attitudes cannot be inherent, these are taught attitudes both ways.

My working theory is that the fact that hes shorter than average for nobility gives him a sort of inferiority complex where he sympathizes with different people more or something, but its just silly.

And you cant pull any "scholiasts think le peace is epic and nobility isnt superior" because theres like a bunch of examples of scholiasts who think the opposite.

Oh great, fuckwit is back.

File: 1774337183415043.jpg (1.2 MB)

So good so interesting. I'm just thankful that even when not talking (directly) about philosophy, the world building can still be interesting and engaging. I was half afraid that even if the philosophy talk would be good, there'd be an aspect of the book I'd have to force myself through, but so far its been a breeze to read, its too refreshing, too good to be true.

>>25304605
Please fuck off. Go away.

>>25304535
>This is a secret aspect of writing that I rarely get to talk about except to myself, so I wont bother to share it deeply, because I don't believe anybody here deserves to understand it as I do
wow, anon

File: 1773331715045146.jpg (342.8 KB)

real as fuark...

>>25304632
Secret as in special to me, because I don't often have reasons to talk about it. Not secret as if "secret" is some essential objective fact of such a style of writing, or even a relative fact. Its a self contingent "fact".

/sffg/ is dead. A shambling corpse kept alive by ONE obsessive retard worm.

>>25304605
I love the term "carked", such a good, gritty term for the process it describes.

Glad you're liking the book. The best is yet to come - you're going to absolutely love a certain character that'll be introduced very soon.

File: 1755134553794128.jpg (512.8 KB)

Old Father says to Danlo that he should keep a word in mind to deal with the vast amount of possible knowledge that can be learned.

My only question is. Doesn't this go against his charge about how human beings sort and categorize truth to fix it, therefore narrowing the ways it can be understood, is that not Shih? Why would he encourage such? To be fair he allows danlo to learn language despite language probably being the chief way things are categorized, and despite him saying that we too often treat the symbol as the reality it represents. So its possible shih is just a tool to keep in mind since Danlo already learned Moksha

^ I want this retard dead.

File: 1772747298225954.jpg (728.4 KB)

Oh im stupid he literally explains it in the next set of words kek. Im so used to not expecting books to explain the motivations behind saying certain seemingly contradictory or incoherent things (All of Terra Ignota) That i just rushed myself and asked, so that I could have a satisfying answer that allows me to keep reading, but no the book answered itself. Good book so far.

>>25304648
>The best is yet to come - you're going to absolutely love a certain character that'll be introduced very soon.
Thats the most exciting part, the book has set a standard already with first impressions that it isnt skin deep, so my expectations is literally that it can only get better from here on.

>Oh im stupid
At least he admits it

File: 1765193952218612.jpg (1.1 MB)

If theres any petty criticism I could have for now, its that I dont think the beginning quote of chapter 4 quite ended up making any sense by the end of the chapter. Chapter was the best yet despite that anyway.

About 30% through The Dragonbone Chair. Liking it a lot so far. The worldbuilding is very comfy and I really like how Simon is realistically portrayed as an annoying teenage brat sometimes. After years of having my brain rotted by webnovels I was expecting to bounce hard off this book due to the pacing, but with it's the most engrossed I've been in reading this year. Also got lucky at my local library, managed to pick up the entire series (minus Green Angel Tower pt 2) in paperback used for $4.

I Am Legend is pretty great. The bit where he says he can't ever look outside at night because the female vampires will go to any and all lengths to cocktease him into coming outside and that he can barely fight his lust to do so is hilarious.

Just finished The Way of Kings

What did I think of it?

>>25304691
No it wasnt hilarious you just liked it cause it made you horny

>>25304711
One of the books of all time forsure

>>25304656
Why aren't you using the filter from the last thread?

>>25304645
It is genuine autism. I do not say that to be maliceful but as someone who has worked with autistic patients -- often in-home client visits -- and been exposed to highly-specific intricate stream-of-conscience rambling, both during professional work environments and meeting randoms over the internet.

>>25304691
I know most adaptations suck but the I Am Legend still one makes me mad all these years later

The book ending is sublime. It turns everything on its head, the meaning of the title hits you like a brick, and you even end up understanding why the vamps are doing what they're doing. Movie ending doesn't just miss the point, it turns 360 degrees and shoots itself in the head

plus they fucked up the dog scene and made it way less tragic.

>>25304735
It didn't. It was funny.

>>25304751
I used the filter you guys were pushing and it filtered 17 threads in the catalog but none of the pagespammer posts in the thread.

>>25304762
It is, but it's the Chris-chan variant where he's completely incapable of understanding that he's not surrounded by idiots and crazy people, but that it's him that's the problem

>>25304593
Do what I do and report him for spamming. It's not like he's actually reading. It just goes into chat gpt.

Maybe it'll do something, maybe he's the janny.

>>25304798
It never accomplishes anything. I'm fairly certain this board isn't moderated.

>>25304817
I see your type on /vg/ too and I just don't get it

Someone is reading a book and posting about it. What the hell is this thread for, this board for, this entire site for if not something like that? What the fuck is the alternative?

I imagine the reason the posts stay up is that there is no rule they're breaking. You really want it to be illegal to post *too on-topic* about a subject?

>>25304831
Shut up, you piece of shit. You know what you're doing and you know it's just for the purposes of being a fucking annoyance.

>>25304831
>There is no rule they're breaking
Spamming/flooding

Can you just not talk about him and not reply to him you bunch of retards

>Autistic retard persists in his insanity even though everyone around him has signaled that they hate him and want him to fuck off
Read the room, idiot.

>>25304861
It is difficult to ignore the elephant when its dick is all up on my forehead.

>>25304674
Slit your own throat, scum.

Newfag here, why do we hate that guy?

>>25304897
Stick around for fifteen threads or so.

How do I demoralize pagespammer to the point of suicide?

>>25304915
Wrong target. Aim higher.

>>25304923
NTA but for who?

>>25304923
Daily reminder that Bakkerspammer and pagespammer are the same person.

>>25304506
Thanks to Banks, I enjoy cheap space operas now.

>>25304593
>>25304619
Did you miss the screenshot with the filter?

>>25304959
Please refer back to >>25304783

>>25304817
I'd not be surprised, the jannies tend to be hugbox retards as we saw after the sharty stuff. Still, the horrors persist and so shall I/my autistic devotion to reporting.

>>25305022
nta
Every time /sffg/ has really gotten the attention of the powers that be their solution had been to simply delete the thread for a while every time it's made. The longest lasted for weeks.

>>25305022
>reporting someone for talking about books
>on a literature board
>in the appropriate genre thread

>>25305057
Kys jeet ai spammer

>>25305057
Mindless navel-gazing about the contents of every individual page isn't discussing literature, you're essentially just stroking your own faggot ego with your oh so "deep" analytical dives.

Most of the shit the idiot posts is the most mundane, sophomoric fart-sniffing bullshit imaginable and contributes absolutely fucking nothing to the thread.

Fuck off and die. You're just eating up post space 90% of the time. Kill yourself.

Is The Andromeda Strain worth reading?

>>25305108
It's fine but the film is much better. Actually that's true for most of his books.

>Movie is better than the book
I don't believe (You)

>>25302455
back to plebbit you faggot

>>25305118
Next you're going to tell me that I Am Legend (2007) was better than the book.

>>25305127
Crichton had good ideas and concepts but his actual writing was pretty flat and boring. Which is why film adaptations of his stuff tended to work so well, they kept the good ideas and lost all his prose.

>>25303442
I'd rather just keep reading.

finally got round to starting malazan and am halfway through GOTM
people have greatly exaggerated the diffculty of following the book, hell even the preface too

>>25305152
I don't think any one has ever said that in all of human existence. If there are worse adaptations, none immediately come to mind.

>>25304960
It's your device not the filter.

>>25305458
I agree completely.

>>25305458
It's more that there are just a lot of people with ADHD / short attention spans who get impatient if the book doesn't clearly explain everything in the first few chapters. Malazan IS pretty sparse on helpful exposition, but this is only "challenging" if you have poor reading retention and limited ability to make inferences.

File: GSV incapable of picturing a red apple in mind.jpg (187.8 KB)

>>25304506
Despite being among the worst culture novels i think player of games had one of the best endings, which I'll admit are the weakest parts of Banks' writings. Player of games might be the best to make into a film, and that's all it's got to it. Hope they do that some day. I do dislike the fact that it's the one that people usually recommend as a starting point. Look to windward is way superior(and i'd recommend it to any anons as a starting point), but maybe not as a story, but more of like a glimpse to the world he built.
I think he never had an idea of how to end his novels, but a shitload of ideas for the setting and he ran with it. That might be the reason there's something special there, or maybe it's nostalgia. I'm usually overtly critical, but with Banks' writing i just naturally roll with it. He could feed me any scifi bullshit with dozens of plot holes and I'd eat it all up since it's actually entertaining.

>>25305458
A lot of it was exaggerated, but Malazan has also accidentally benefited from how tastes have shifted over the years.

The things people used to complain about - being thrown into the deep end, lack of exposition and reliance on inferences, vastly interconnected lore and worldbuilding, etc. - are now things that modern consumers enjoy and seek out in their books, games, and movies.

>>25302674
This is extra-fried-schizo.

>>25303095
Our Share of Night
The Chronicles of Amber
Ancient Evenings
The Deep
The Stone Dance of the Chameleon
The Oresteia

No idea why you guys freak out so much over screenshot anon he's not even active most of the thread he posts for like 1 hour then fucks off for like the rest of the day
Might be genuine mental illness to care enough that one or two hours of screenshots at most out of twenty four hours bothers you

>>25302411
200 SFF Magazines
A. Merritt's Fantasy Magazine
Aboriginal Science Fiction
Absolute Magnitude
Adventure Tales
Aeon
Albedo One
Algol
Amazing Science Fiction
Amazing Stories
American Science Fiction
Analog
Anathema
Apex Magazine
Asimov's SF Adventure Magazine
Asimov's Science Fiction
Astonishing Stories
Astounding Science Fiction
Astounding Stories
Astounding Stories of Super Science
Aurealis
Authentic Science Fiction
Avon Fantasy Reader
Avon Science Fiction Reader
Bastion Science Fiction Magazine
Beneath Ceaseless Skies
Beyond Fantasy Fiction
Beyond Infinity
Breach
Broadswords and Blasters
Chacal
Challenging Destiny
Cirsova
Clarkesworld Magazine
Comet
Compelling Science Fiction
Concept Sci-Fi
Constelación Magazine
Cosmos
Cossmass Infinities
CyberPunkNOW
Deep Magic
Destinies
Diabolical Plots
Dreamforge
Dynamic Science Fiction
Dynamic Science Stories
Eita! Magazine
Electric Velocipede
Escape Pod
Etherea Magazine
Exterus
Extro
FIYAH
Factor Four Magazine
Famous American Science Fiction
Famous Science Fiction
Fantastic
Fantastic Adventures
Fantastic Science Fiction
Fantastic Story
Fantastic Universe
Fantasy
Fantasy Book
Fantasy Magazine
Fantasy Scroll Magazine
Fantasy Stories
Fantasy Tales
Fantasy and Science Fiction
Fiction Vortex
Finnish Weird
Fireside Magazine
Flash Fiction Online
Forever Magazine
Fusion Fragment
Future
Future Orbits
Future Science Fiction
Galaktika
Galaxy
Galaxy's Edge Magazine
Galileo
Gamma
Great Science Fiction
Greatest Uncommon Denominator
Grimdark Magazine
Habitats
Haven Spec Magazine
Hearth Stories
Heliotrope
Heroic Fantasy Quarterly Magazine
Hexagon
Hub
IF Worlds Of Science Fiction
Imagination
Imaginative Tales
Impulse
Infinity Science Fiction
Intergalactic Medicine Show
International Science Fiction

Intertext
Interzone
Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine
Jim Baen's Universe
Khōréō
LONTAR - The Journal of Southeast Asian Speculative Fiction
Lightspeed
Locus Magazine
Luna Station Quarterly
Marion Zimmer Bradley's Fantasy Magazine
Marvel Science Fiction
Marvel Science Stories
Marvel Stories
Marvel Tales
Mermaids Monthly
Mothership Zeta Magazine
Mysterion
Mythic
Nebula
Neometropolis
New Edge Sword & Sorcery Magazine
New Exterus
New Worlds
Odyssey
Omni
On Spec
Orson Scott Card's Intergalactic Medicine Show
Other Worlds
Out of This World Adventures
Planet Magazine
Planet Stories
Plasma Frequency Magazine
Postscripts
Proteus
Questar
Rogue Worlds
SF Caledonia
Satellite
Saturn
Schlock! Webzine
Science Fantasy
Science Fiction
Science Fiction Adventures
Science Fiction Chronicle
Science Fiction Stories
Science Stories
Science Wonder Stories
Science-Fiction Monthly
Selected Science-Fiction Magazine
Shimmer Magazine
Shoreline of Infinity
Simulacrum
Solarpunk Magazine
Something Wicked SF & Horror Magazine
Space Science Fiction
Space Stories
Space Travel
Spaceway
Speculative North
Star Science Fiction
Starship
SteamPunk Magazine
Stirring Science Stories
Strange Adventures
Strange Horizons
Super Science Fiction
Super Science Novels
Super Science Stories
Sybil's Garage
Terra Incognita
The Colored Lens
The Deadlands
The Dread Machine
The Future Fire
The Magazine of Bizarro Fiction
The Magazine of Fantasy
The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction
The Most Thrilling Science Fiction Ever Told
Thrilling Science Fiction
Tomorrow Speculative Fiction
Tops In Science Fiction
Tor.com
Translunar Travelers Lounge
Uncanny Magazine
Unearth
Unidentified Funny Objects
Universe
Unknown
Unknown Worlds
Vanguard
Vastarien
Venture
Vertex
Vision of Tomorrow
Vortex
Weird Tales
Wonder Stories
Worlds Beyond
Worlds of Fantasy
Worlds of Tomorrow
Wyngraf

>>25306115
>how to end his novels
There was at least that one passage -- can't remember the novel -- where that gigantic space-faring creature that circumnavigates the galaxy had apparently met someone/something on its next go-round and didn't know about the Culture at all, umpteen millennia into the future suggesting that they were ultimately a fart in the solar wind.

>2/3's through the book
>expect to just read 20-30 pages quickly
>drops the most abrupt ill-conceived coldsteel the edgehog ending on you
>rest of the book is just appendix

wow, fuck you Bakker

>>25303182
>>25303310
>>25303706
>>25306194
Seems interesting, thanks anons!

>>25306391
Well, they were full of Sublime cults. Maybe they took the leap and became something else. Or the Elders finally told them to stop being Involved and they did, with only remnants like the Zetetic Elench kicking about. There's only so much time a Mind can spend doing heroin-math.

>>25306147
>lack of exposition and reliance on inferences
In Malazan? I felt the opposite was the problem: There's a ton of exposition and very little room for characters to actually leave an impression on the reader. For example, we're constantly told about adventures that Kellanved and Laseen and Rake had in the past but in the present none of them do much.

why is the prose so bad in science fiction? I like the speculative ideas

>>25306627
Give some examples. There are plenty of sci-fi writers with good prose, such as Jack Vance.

>>25306541
I found myself more interested in the world, like with Mieville, which is appropriate given it was a tabletop game campaign. I really wanted to know more about the elder races, the holds and the tiles and the warrens, etc.

Whoops. >>25306636 meant for
>>25306623

>>25306636
Worldbuilding is nice but there needs to be a core cast of interesting characters to keep me invested. Very few Malazan characters have any development or internal conflict over the course of the story other than Karsa.

>>25306627
>muh prose
Kys

/1080x*/;boards:lit

I have been convinced to give The Dark Tower a try. But I've also been told that the books went through rewrites/rereleases at some point which fucked with and worsened them? Is that true, and if so which versions am I looking for? I tried a cursory web search but didn't see anything concrete on the subject.

>>25306654
There will be a lot of collateral damage from this.

>>25306649
>proselet
lol

>>25306654
?

Kill all Noldor shits en masse

>>25306846
t. morgoth

>>25306846
Melkor getting zesty AF ITT

>>25306744
Iirc the revisions were done to add some foreshadowing of events later in the series and fix some plot holes. I don't think they are particularly important. That being said, if you are interested in post-apocalyptic cowboys fighting supernatural forces you should read Stones of Power, by David Gemmell, which is basically the exact same premise but better.

>>25306846
Shouldn't you be imprisoned outside of space and time right now?

File: 1770680982326070.jpg (50.1 KB)

Somewhat Nietzschean, although I think Nietzsche would reject the notion of knowledge to, I'm not sure, I've only read two of his books, he's not very thorough besides Genealogy so he can be general in his analysis. But from what I understand about the whole God is not dead, is that belief is actually fickle for the average person, and the "death" of meaning comes from a lack of actual meaning in the first place, if people could abandon their belief in God so easily, then whatever meaning derived from there was always created and conditional.
I really should read Twilight of the Gods eventually. Just been low on Nietzsche for a while now, but hes got interesting ideas.

The question obviously becomes. Why? Why did people lose their faith so easily? It wasn't suffering that caused such, as people in the past would be more staunchly religious while a plague killed like 70% of people. The obvious accusation is science, but contrary to popular belief, past scientific people were actually often pretty religious. So its something else, maybe something associated with science, but not science itself, either that or science changed and became something else unrecognizable from what Newton Practiced and what Darwin (less religious but still somewhat so) I don't know just thinking outloud, im less confident on my associating this with Nietzsche, hes really non specific about knowledge vs belief from my memory.

>>25307098
>outside of time
>right now
anon, I...

>>25307131
FUCK OFF
FUCK OFF
FUCK OFF
FUCK OFF
FUCKING FUCK OFF AND FUCKING KILL YOURSELF, NOW!!

Do you use maps when you read a series to orient yourselves to the scale and geography? Or do you just make a mental map with the directions and locations given in the text?

>>25307151
There has never been a single time where a map has mattered a single iotta of a fuck to me when reading. 9 times out of 9 the author knows dick about wartime logistics, so armies moving through them are unimportant, and if its just fantasy shlock "Go from A to B" then it doesn't matter.

>>25307151
I need maps, and if there isn't one I don't even attempt to form a mental picture myself

In real life - and video games - I have a fantastic sense of direction and orientation. But apparently this is due visual cues or some formless intuition because it doesn't translate at all to text.

i also can't picture the apple so maybe that's related

>>25307144
This is the reaction the faggot is looking for, responding to it only fuels his faggotry.

>>25307131
Can you actually do something useful and do this to work written by people in /wg/ or /wng/? Then I would actually respect you, until then; lame and gay.

>I Am Legend ends with Neville thinking "I Am Legend"
Woag.

>>25307131
I reject the notion you've ever read Nietzsche

>>25307185
>and do this to work written by people in /wg/ or /wng/?
If I knew an interesting web novel I could trust then maybe I would.

>>25307144
lrn2fix your filters. whatever mobile browser you're using is ass.

>>25307193
Firefox on an Android m8

>>25307192
What kind of weak little pussy is worried about "trusting" a fucking book?

>>25302435
>>25302485
The moon isn't a star. Stars are fixed in heaven. The moon moves across heaven. The moon is therefore a planet, just like the sun, Jupiter, and Pluto.

>>25307245
>Stars are fixed in heaven.
No they aren't. Stars orbit black holes the same way planets orbit stars.

>>25307248
Oh yeah? Then what do the black holes orbit, stupidhead? And what do whatever black holes orbit orbit? Fucking dumbass.

>>25307192
Yet you "review" literal who books. Why bother when you could actually be doing something with value.
Do you know how valuable those comments would be to a webnovel's chapters.
You're a fucking loser and coward.

>>25307253
NTA, but... The answer is cluster, then filament, then for us whatever the great attractor is. We don't know what it is the Laniakea Supercluster is orbiting. We can't see it.

>>25307253
>Then what do the black holes orbit, stupidhead?
Whatever has more mass.

>>25307260
So your mom?

>>25307263
>your mom?
based retard upset because retarded

>>25307263
Don't be ridiculous anon, if my mother had the mass of even a small black hole the gravitational force would instantly crush all life on the planet.

File: real_astronomy.jpg (189.1 KB)

>>25307248
Go outside and observe the sky. Over time, you will notice two kinds of heavenly bodies. One kind is fixed on the celestial sphere. This is what we call a star. The other kind moves in relation to the celestial sphere. This is what we call a planet.

>>25307266
Interesting thing about this, is that it likely wouldn't happen due to hawking radiation. The absorption of the surrounding mass, even if the black hole is traveling doesn't have enough radius to feed it because evaporating. It will produce a couple petawatts of energy and then disappear.

>>25307271
https://aasnova.org/2016/12/14/determining-our-motion-through-the-galaxy/

>>25307271
The night sky we see is not the same one we looked at yesterday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBfUBtdo8yo

>>25307254
>You're a fucking loser and coward.
What the fuck??? for not reviewing random webnovels I've never been recommended or given a reason to read? Fuck is wrong with you mofos.

>>25307346
Do something to make your opinion matter then, because currently it doesn't. At least with "reviewing" rando webnovels you'll have at least one person who will care. The author.
You deserve this treatment for your constant shitting up of our thread with your trite bullshit. You will get none of my respect. Coward, pussy, bitch.

>>25307385
I'm not really trying to make my opinion matter. There are a whole host of retarded people that can just say whatever they want aslong as it confirms enough peoples biases, and the internet is built in such a way that its most likely to promote and boost those people, in such an environment, my opinion mattering doesn't matter because my opinion offers nothing that people want. It's just supposed to be analysis based on predicates.
I post my opinions because sometimes I just need to get my thoughts out, if I care enough about something.

>>25307396
>>I post my opinions because sometimes I just need to get my thoughts out, if I care enough about something.
Do it somewhere else.

>>25303394
>randomly transported to a different world
Doesn't he die before being transported? Killed by Indians (feather, not dot), if I recall correctly.
>>25303454
>It's interesting how much of old scifi is effectively just portal fantasy or similar. It's like they didn't know how to write speculative fiction without first grounding it in modern reality first.
The audience was unfamiliar with speculative fiction, so it had to be grounded in something the audience knew. The reader discovers the world with the character. Can't do that if the character knows the world. Today's audience is familiar with speculative fiction, so you can build on what they already know from other works in the genre.

File: bafkreihvxl4ognnpmzljkaqab6dzq5j2cnq2puihwrzhrspgmvmrnhbybi.jpg (655.1 KB)

So I just finished the Metro trilogy, and holy fuck was that third book a god damn slog. I really liked the first two, but the third one was just torture porn from beginning to end. It felt like the author decided that he hated all of his characters and wanted all of them to suffer as much as possible. The third book felt less like a story, and more like some kind of critique of russian culture, and the story suffers for that, especially in the second half. I love bleak stories, but metro 2035 just felt more frustrating than anything. And don't even get me started on the shit with Sasha. I found myself laughing during her scenes because they were all so damn bad.
I do love the setting though. Anyone got any recommendations for other stories set underground?

>>25307396
>based on predicates
You don't know what a predicate is.
You are going to google or use AI to learn what it is before you respond to "prove" you do.
Know that even if you lie to me, you can't lie to yourself.

Reading a book about Jack Parsons and finding out that all the old hat big scifi authors were probably all occultist lodge wackos.

Doesn't bode well.

>>25307640
I wonder what Crowley and Parsons really summoned out there in that desert. Hubbard with tight with them too--the same creator of Scientology.

File: 81xE5qugy8L.jpg (387.8 KB)

Finally finished this. Very average and it has it's moments but everything felt too safe, too cliche and too repetitive. 2/5.

>>25307447
He dies before the Indians even get to him but yeah he collapses in a cave and his ghost separates from his body and gets warped to Mars after doing some Bloodborne pose in its general direction. It's still a random plot contrivance

>>25307091
Thank you, I'll not get so concerned about the rewrite thing and I will add Stones of Power to the list. Looks to be right in the correct direction, kind of has a cool Solomon Kane impression at first blush. Think you're actually the second person to recommend me that series, so it's overdue that I try it.

>>25307506
Well you haven't said anything of substance, so I have no reason or burden to prove anything. An accusation isn't an argument. BTFO loser.

>>25308167
Saying your own post BTFO someone makes you a narcissist..

>>25308167
I know you use 4chan because you are a social outcast who feels like they don't belong anywhere else. You are insufferable, nobody likes you, and you don't belong here either.

>>25308243
I bet you're spot on he's clearly a loser nobody likes

>>25308167
Please lurk more before posting on 4chan. We're very welcoming of new users but only if you're putting in the effort.

>>25308319
Sounds like reddit.

>>25308335
We are substantially more welcoming and inclusive than that bigot-filled cesspool. I can't even downvote you here.

... though sometimes I want to :p

>>25308243
What does that say about you, anon?

>>25306654
Type?

>>25306654
He just altered the dimension of his screenshots to avoid it, which is proof he's doing this to aggravate people and his posts are reportable.

>>25308351
anon...

>>25308361
?

>>25307804
>I wonder what Crowley and Parsons really summoned out there in that desert
The Whore of Babylon

>>25307804
It was Parsons and Hubbard doing the summoning. I don't think Crowely was anywhere near.

I tried reading Gap Cycle but its so atrociously written it feels like reading shitty fanfiction. It feels like a kid writing his first "novel"
>so this dude did this and that, and then he did something else, then this other thing happened

>>25308517
1980s SF, anon.

File: reddit and 4chan.png (248.2 KB)

>>25308243
Why do newfags always talk about 4chan from an external viewpoint and always with this smug tone?
>>25308335
4chan has actual standards unlike that pedophilic govt-endorsed shithole.

File: the-office-pam-beesly.gif (853.6 KB)

>>25308646

File: Screenshot 2026-05-28 at 1.24.31 PM.png (967.4 KB)

>The Winds of Winter has been in development hell for the past 20 years.
George R.R. Martin needs to put the fork down.

I cannot fathom giving an actual shit about GRRM slop.

>>25308646
I don't even know how many of those subreddits still exist

>>25308717
Show soured me on it. Read a really good essay on a Daenerys arc. But it convinced me that people like GRRM because hes is thorough about making simple assumptions actually more complex like: Wow you cant actually just be an idealistic retard that wants to free all the slaves without committing to the hard compromises of politicking.

The type of stuff that appeals to retards who were too simple minded in the first place to ever consider that. I'd probably consider it a good book for people approaching those formative years close to their 20s where you don't really know anything but become more interested in complex concepts like morality, truth, relationships etc.

Based on my impression of that brilliant essay is feels like GRRM is a response to the concept and simplicity of YA fundamentally. Which isn't bad. Its just that for me, I don't even consider YA worthwhile enough for a response to be satisfying to me. I already know its wrong, simple and stupid, and I already know exactly why.

Another thing is. GRRM is just way too long, and the show gave me such a bad impression (unlike most I thought it was bad from the start, and it took me multiple tries to actually push through watching till the end of season 4) that I don't want to bother with it

>>25308738
Ok screencapper

>>25308714
This is why you shouldnt read unfinished series.

>>25302616
Try Tad Williams, Adam Roberts and M John Harrison.

Is Golden Ocuemene literary?

>>25308738
>rambling post talking about an essay rather than his own take
what a complete waste of words

do you need somebody to write an essay about my post before you can respond to it?

>>25302616
>literary genre fiction
A contradiction in terms.

>>25308783
Nah. I read what I want. I just don't become super emotionally invested in stuff unless it's finished.

>>25309092
"I'm so cool because I don't care if something is finished" Nobody cares retard

>>25302455
I didn't enjoy Floor 10 but Floor 11 was enough to salvage the book for me.

>>25307832
It's a shame, it feels like the better a cover the book has nowadays, the worse it actually winds up being.

>>25308830
No, it's actually kinda poopy. Cool ideas, good ability to make techno jargon interesting to read, but awful characters and a worse plot

File: 1000020085.gif (1.4 MB)

>>25308646
>4chan has actual standards

>>25308714
>>25308738
>>>/lit/grrm

>>25309406
fuck is this a troll or real? a /sffg/ anon said its one of the better old scifi and i just took his word for it and put it in my backlog

>>25309465
I'm being serious, but don't let a rando like me sway you so strongly.

My main issue with it is that it tries very hard to be a Great Man vs. Society type of story, but with a very stupid and unsympathetic main character.

For the story to work the MC has to be very smart and machiavellian, but the author doesn't really know how to do that, so instead everyone else in the story is a dumbass so the MC looks good by comparison. This is a big problem because the other characters are all meant to be post-human, godlike beings, immortal and powerful and rich and ruthless. It just doesn't work.

It's one of the few books where I thought "I wish this was a setting, not a book, and someone more talented adapted it into a proper story"

I just bought the player of games to give the Culture series 'a shot', and the prose has already disappointed me a page or two in. IDK why I decided to be a paypig.

File: Croaker_Black Company.jpg (51.0 KB)

Who is the smartest sci-fi/fantasy protagonist?

File: 1536864123420.gif (588.8 KB)

Have you guys ever read a book you liked

>>25309567
Unironically the Artemis Fowl series.

>>25309567
Everything by Vance and Heinlein.

>>25309567
The Bartimaeus trilogy.

File: Marrow.png (293.7 KB)

>>25309506
>>>/lit/grrm
I read ASOIAF around 2008/2009 and have never felt any urge or want to reread them, with hundreds of books between.

>>25309567

File: Screenshot_20260529_012917_Kindle.jpg (300.6 KB)

SAAAAR!

File: siscon.jpg (408.7 KB)

I finished the Resident Evil 3 novel and began Code: Veronica, the last RE novel. Just like my Japanese anime!

>>25309567
Stop with the vagueposting

What happened to pagespammer? Is xir alright!? PAGESPAMMER COME HOME!!! I DIDN'T MEAN IT! I THOUGHT YOUR INANE, RAMBLING, SOPHOMORIC DOGSHIT WAS ACTUALLY REALLY DEEP AND BASED AND PROFOUND!!! PAGE SPAMMER, NOOOOOOO, DON'T KILL XIRSELF!! ;_;

>>25308646
>pedophilic govt-endorsed shithole.
LMAO, as if this site isn't also a pedophilic govt-endorsed shithole

>>25309088
elaborate

>>25309567
I like most of the books i've read recently

File: 61IQW+A6PvL._AC_UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg (81.3 KB)

Do I have to be a genius for this book? I don't get it

>>25309940
What's to get?

>>25309631
?

After Bakker I feel like I need more gRiMdArK
Is Manifest Delusions good?

one thing we need more of..necromancers

>>25310235
The reader's barely disguised fetish

>>25309940
>Blue Mars
>Green Mars
It's not that complicated.

Romance is really not one of Robert Jordans strong suits. Does it get any less any headachey as the books go on? I'm about 70% through shadow rising right now

Xianxia novels are really interesting in the way that they expose how fucked up chineses society is.

>>25310326
No? It's really that way. I mean, there's like dozens of romances on the novels and they're all like that.

>>25309615
Why are these books so overpriced? I'd be willing to buy the series for $50 but they're going for over $150 in decent condition. I actually like the lore stuff in the first few games so this sucks.

>>25310265
Blue Mars sucked, though. It's not even set in Mars and it left the Martian civil war aside as if it had never happened.

>>25310326
>Robert Jordan
I saw an omnibus of his Conan novels in my favourite charity shop. Should I read it?

>>25310469
IDK, I'm just doing wheel of time right now, because I was in the mood for some unc fantasy.
Well, that's not quite it. I did the first two years and years ago and I just circled back around to it now as the mood hit.
I briefly thought about re-reading the first two, but I figured there's no way I'm going to read all 14 books back to back even in the best circumstances, so if I keep going back each time I start then I'll never go anywhere. So now I'm just taking notes as I read, which is a habit I've been getting into with every book I read anyways

>>25310498
Meh, I'll buy it. It's just 50p (0.67 USD) after all. Thanks!

>>25309940
Nah, just a liberal homo.

Is there notable fantasy in the black powder era of technology?

>>25310546
We're currently in the black power era.

>>25310498
>unc fantasy
We really are full of zoomers huh?

>>25310574
The oldest zoomers are nearly 30. What about you?

>>25310574
I'm 29, dunno what that makes me, but I like using "unc" to describe anything that's more than like five years old and seeing who reacts

Fully simulated worlds are ever closer to being real.
https://youtu.be/ggfsGD1PCQA

>>25310582
The youngest are around 13-14. Oh look, summerfags are already rolling in.

Recommend me a book about genociding aliens I hate aliens they all evil and foreign n shit and probably queer

>>25310644
Look no further than Scott R. Bakker's Second Apocalypse series, by your description its exactly what you're looking for

>>25310644
Starship Troopers
A Hymn Before Battle

>>25310644
>probably queer
Like you.

>>25310673
>no u
Compelling response

>>25310644
I want something the opposite of HFY.
Humanity Fuck No, stories about humanity failing to integrate in the galactic community because we come off as autistic anti-social sperms who keep talking about figurative or literal ww2 tanks and trains. Lacking the training to be able to do any meaning full galactic work to improve our economic status. The logical equivalent in living in the galactic basement, as a NEET species.

>>25310687
spergs not sperms, but its basically the same message so galactic sperms is fine actually
own'n it

>>25310546
Rats and Gargoyles

>>25310644
Armor by John Steakley

>>25310648
lmfao

>>25310644
xeelee exultant

File: 20260529_172517.jpg (1.3 MB)

Is it good?

>>25311028
read it and tell us

Are there any Science fiction and Fantasy light novels worth reading, or are they all no better than The Eye of Argon?

Just came here to say Bakker is king.

>>25311028
No idea but I really liked Otherland by the same author.

File: redeem.jpg (131.2 KB)

sirs do not redeem

Pretty fucking tired of the "Hadrian recovers from trauma over decades/centuries -> he goes on an adventure! -> woah spooky stuff happening -> uh oh! you took to long and now you're invaded and captured by Cielcin!" cycle fuck OFF

Craziest thing here is how few Sun Eater defenders there were here. Even Terra Ignota had defenders. The motivation to continue has to come from within now

File: 20260525_205016.jpg (2.4 MB)

I baseded out and bought good goy versions of Red Rising, Leviathan Wakes, and Empire of Silence. Which one should I read first?

>>25311504
Leviathan's Wake.

>>25311508
>Leviathan's Wake
I only just realized that's not the name. Still kind of made sense.

>>25311504
>>25311508
>>25311511
Leviathan Wakes is a reference to the Thomas Hobbes book, Leviathan.

>>25311504
I have that RR edition too. It's comfy but also the weakest of the books. Still enjoyable though.

>>25311088
Our lord and savior R. Scott Bakker!

At the start of the next thread, I will post five (5!) short story reviews!

>>25302419
enjoy your elves-mages-dwarves magical retardslop

>>25311772
Congrats, we'll see it tomorrow.

>>25311028
Dunno, but I've got mixed feelings about his Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. Maybe this one is better.

File: d-left.jpg (122.0 KB)

>read blindsight on a recommendation
>ayys surprise humanity with a global gender reveal
>we follow a high functioning autist
>he is sent into space to meet the ayys along with a bunch of freaks
>one of them is a vampire
>they find the ayys and have no idea what they're dealing with
>starfish, radiation torture, war and explosion
>the autist is sent back to earth overrun by vampires
that was awesome

>find out there there is a sequel, echopraxia
>it takes place at the same time as blindsight?
>a dude is chilling out in the desert
>his neighbor is a church of science with a permanent hurricane going on in the yard
>dude is attacked by zombies
>he escapes into the church and they kill the zombies with their hurricane
now it's just weird

Reading the "Last Werewolf" trilogy by Glen Duncan. The first book was interesting, the perspective of the last werewolf alive. All the others have been killed by an extensive organization of humans and our guy, Jake, spends most of the book getting ready for the last dance. Of course things don't go as planned for anyone involved. Hijinks ensue.
I'm reading the follow up book and it's not as good, POV changes and it's kind of a slog. Here's hoping the last one is better.

>>25310546
Powder Mage trilogy + spinoff
Conflict between your standard arcane sorcerers and "mages" who snort black powder like coke and fuel their magic with it. It's kinda like Mistborn except it doesn't suck