It's cheap and as we all know that's all that matters in most military contracts

>>23730724
It also comes in red.

>>23730731
What good is cheap if the GM outperforms it?

What benefits does the Zaku II have over a GM?
>>23730736
So does my dog’s penis.

>>23730741
Nevermind I don't sell products to furfaggots.

>>23730745
You can’t talk to me like that, as a state owned manufacturing concern you fall under chain of command and will have to deal with the consequences of speaking that way to a better looking superior.

>>23730724
Did you see that video the Feds put out for their Zudah? It ain't lookin' good for old' Zimmad y'know.

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The cockpit still smells like Char, Haman-sama. I was even told that it might still have samples of his DNA. As a reminder we only take gold bars as payment. Always a pleasure doing business with you and Axis.

>>23730741
Outperformance matters to some extent, but pilot competence, logistics, and war economy matters more. Good militaries want to avoid overengineered products because servicing needs to be cheap and fast. If there's a 10% performance tradeoff, it is better to take the cheaper unit and simply buy more of them. You'll have a wider field of force projection and will outperform on logistics when it matters most.

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>>23730772
>use half of Axis's operating budget to buy Char's old Zaku II
>finally get inside the cockpit with your back massager
>everything smells like Indian food

>>23730787
We only control so much territory and manufacturing capacity. We do control the near entire supply of Helium-3 which is the most critical fuel component of Mobile Suit Development.

While you make the Zaku seem like the pragmatic choice for now, what happens in a few months when oceans of GMs splash into Solomon as is predicted?

And why are we financing the design and manufacture of six different amphibious mobile suits not counting mobile armors? Are we stupid?

>>23730724
>Zimmad Company claims they can offer more performance with their Gouf

Zeonic made the Gouf

>>23730724
the zaku II uses your existing logistics chain
it is compatible with parts and weapons already in your stockpiles and your pilots and engineers don't need retraining to use it
this is a bigger selling point than any improvement in performance offered by zimmad

>>23730878
Ah shit. I meant so say Efreet.
Drop a colony on the thread. It’s over.

>>23730724
>Zimmad Company claims they can offer more performance with their Gouf and Dom against the Federation’s new RGM-79
The Gouf is a Zeonic machine. You obviously don't know what you're talking about, so just buy the proven Zaku anon. Now lets go get some hamburgers!

>>23730787
Statistically the GM significantly outperforms the Zaku II by many metrics.

>>23730999
I'd certainly hope so considering it came out ~9 months later. And this is in a universe where tech advancements come so quick that they went from finally making them able to walk on two legs to being able to control spacetime in like 15 years

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>>23731015
That's a bit of what I'm trying to say, realistically I'd be telling the OP to refuse the Zakus if anything else is an option.

>>23730724
nigga did you look at the calendar, it says One Year War Month 11/12, the feddies are knocking on Solomon's door right now and A Baoa Qu is next
do you wanna have 2000 zakus or 1000 doms

>>23730724
USE THE ORIGINAL ZAKU YOU FUCK

>>23730724
It looks cool

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>>23730959
The reason I fucked it up is because Zimmad does create some Gouf prototypes, like this bad boy, and that autistic knowledge beat out common knowledge.
>>23730999
On paper it does, in reality the Zaku IIs are shown fucking up GMs pretty consistently.
If I had to come up with a reason why beyond “Zeon has better pilots” or “bad guys need to seem threatening” I’d say this:

1. Despite having less performant reactors, Zaku IIs have a more efficient power delivery system thanks to the external cables.

2. Dependence on kinetic and ballistic weapons means no power draw on critical systems. A heat hawk has indefinite deployment time, a beam saber has 5 minutes.

3. Zaku IIs have thicker armor and more mass which is beneficial in CQC.

>>23730999
Trips of truth but there is one factor that matters more than everything else: the Feddies were smart enough to mass produce beam weaponry ASAP. The GM could be outperformed by the Zaku in every other metric but it wouldn't matter since a single beam shot is enough to cripple if not outright kill enemy suits

>>23731046
>The reason I fucked it up is because Zimmad does create some Gouf prototypes, like this bad boy, and that autistic knowledge beat out common knowledge.
I mean if you like Zimmand so much man idk just buy Zimmand than. My ass is on the next ship to Axis. Good luck with your expiramental ground type when the Feds are swarming A Baoa Qu

>>23730741
>What good is cheap if the GM outperforms it?
It doesn’t, the GM is fucking garbage

>>23731046
The theory that seems to be common among Japanese fans is that many of the early GMs were made with all sorts of cost cutting measures that keep it from matching the performance it’s supposed to have. And that’s also why they blow up when pushed too hard in IGLOO. Shoddy, cheap construction.

>>23731068
Not a theory. MSV says there are early and late GMs, with the early ones being rushed to shit.

>>23730753
if it's fucking state-owned then i don't need to sell shit to you, some middle-management project manager fuck is just going to issue requirements and whichever state-owned manufacturer can produce a viable product at minimal cost will receive a mandate from the state to produce X number of units

>>23731068
lmao so Zudahs were completely appropriate for the early OYW standard but Zakus were just EXTREMELY reliable from the get-go?

>>23731046
>The reason I fucked it up is because Zimmad does create some Gouf prototypes, like this bad boy, and that autistic knowledge beat out common knowledge.
sorry man I need to out-autism your autism, the gouf C-5 prototype isn't a testing prototype for a zimmad competitor to zeonic's gouf, it's an early test prototype for the dom, zimmad used it for trialing the new Dom head design and heat saber.

at that point in the timeline (a bit after Zeon began earth invasion), zimmad hasn't produced any ground-type MS before and have only produced a handful of space-use MS that were trial prototypes but never made it to production. to get a leg-up on development for earth-use MS, they obtained permission from zeonic for a gouf (because it was already specialized for ground use) and then started performing tests on Earth with it to gather data that would eventually develop into the dom

>>23731052
>Feddies were smart enough to mass produce beam weaponry ASAP

Feddies invented E-Cap technology which allowed for hand-manipulator held beam weaponry.
Zeon was already mass producing beam weapons for their Musais and other ships, what they didn’t have access to was E-Caps which allowed miniaturized beam weapons to be used by Mobile Suits.

IIRC, the Gelgoog only has a beam rifle because Zeon reverse engineered E-cap technology.

>>23731077
Yup, I know. Without looking it up before posting my brain associated Gouf with Zimmad for this one bespoke machine fact I had floating in my brain.

>>23731074
Originally Zaku I and Zudah competed for acceptance around UC0074 or so, any Zakus you see in 0079 have had the benefit of years of all kinds of work like testing, production, revisions, etc, especially since each Zaku is an incremental improvement on the first model. They figured out all the problems early on so what you see deployed during the war are newer models that had plenty of R&D time during peacetime.

On the other hand, the Zudah seen in MS Igloo is at its core, still the same 5 year old testing unit that competed with the Zaku I, just dressed up slightly with weapons and not even confirmed to have new engines. It didn't have the benefit of years of years of work to perfect the design.

The Zudah was also intended to have much higher specs and performance than the Zaku I, like 20~30% higher thrust and reactor output. Zimmad sorta overpromised and had trouble getting reaching those specs with reliability and stability, so it ended up blowing up in their faces. Other shit has happened too in UC like this. Hizacks were supposed to be next-generation grunt MS but while the prototype design was testing well, the final production spec was subject to some fuckery with Anaheim Electronics substituting a reactor change at the last minute that looked fine on paper but in reality had trouble meeting full output, hence the problem where it had trouble powering more than one beam weapon.

>>23731083
whoops I guess my need to explain as an armchair autist overrode the fact that you already acknowledged it

>>23731092
I understand the need to flex 0079 knowledge, you’re okay.

>>23731071
It means you’ll get less contracts you stupid piece of pencil pushing grunt shit retard.

>>23731102
ah yes, that's how they do it in soviet russia and maoist china where each state-owned factory no. XX also has a fucking sales team that wines and dines and sucks off the government rep

Where exactly does the idea that the GM is vastly superior to the Zaku come from? I feel like I’ve only ever seen them shown as near equals. Like, in Gihren’s Greed, a Zaku F2 will fucking murder a regular GM. A squad of GMs get blown up in IGLOO by two Zudahs.

>>23731107
Right, you’re competing for the favor of the government which in turn provides you with more resources. That’s how innovation is extracted from your labor and why Zeon had Mobile Suits before the corrupt capitalist Feddie dogs did.

I’m going to have you taken out back and shot for your insolence in this time of strife as you hinder the progress of Zeon’s revolutionary cause.

>>23731046
>A heat hawk has indefinite deployment time, a beam saber has 5 minutes.
What the fuck? Why aren't we all defecting to Zeon then
>tfw I want to wait until they become Neo Zeon because I think the designs get cooler
>whereas Zimmad's designs are consistently good

>>23731113
confusing military-industrial-complex capitalist sales pitches with the government simply demanding a state-owned factory to produce something is fucking wild

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>>23731118
>What the fuck? Why aren't we all defecting to Zeon then
most suits carry two sabers and can swap between them, except for the cheapest of grunts. that said, reminder that norris' gouf couldn't power its heat sword, not sure if that was a problem with the sword itself, but there's no reason Norris couldn't just grab a heat hawk or dom heat saber instead other than carrying difficulties

>>23731133
>most suits carry two sabers and can swap between them
The humble GM sadly only has one
>reminder that norris' gouf couldn't power its heat sword
Wait what the fuck

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>>23731136
norris' sword stays dark for the entire fight and the slashes to the EZ8's arm do bang it up but don't actually cut, the only time he actually kills anything with the sword is when he plunges it through the guntank's "neck" which isn't armored

>>23731144
Ok that's pretty weird. Maybe he just didn't like the heatening-
>literally throws away his unheated heat sword
Yeah maybe he just liked bashing things with it

>>23731144
There is no reason his heat saber shouldn’t be you know, heated up.
Do they give a technical reason why this is the case? Did his hand manipulators malfunction delivering power to the saber?

This also reminds me of another advantage heat hawks and heat sabers have:
They have actual physical weight which should help them overpower beam sabers in swinging clashes. Is there any animated examples of this or do the japs just look this over?

>>23731144
He saw shiro and immediately decided the little bitch wasnt worth spending thr energy to turn of his sword
Also he was out of ammo and energy after defending the mountain from the first wave

>>23731155
Minovsky particles used in stuff like beam sabers or so on are formed by actual magnetic fields, or I-fields. If the forces are powerful enough, simply being a physical mass is not going to push through the I-field. Beam shields used in later Gundam works are an evolution of that technology.

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>>23731155
>Do they give a technical reason why this is the case?
it's never been explained why. in databooks they only note that the heat sword is battery-powered or something, but I don't really see a reason why like any modern electrical device with a battery, it could charge -and- run off the reactor at the same time.

>They have actual physical weight which should help them overpower beam sabers in swinging clashes. Is there any animated examples of this or do the japs just look this over?
not sure what you mean here, do you mean the beam saber should just fold like jello if you hit it hard enough?

>>23731172
I mean, imagine clashing a rapier with a claymore.

>>23731193
well, the problem is that it's fictional weapon, it can be exactly as strong as it needs to be so it doesn't crumple, and if it isn't then just pump more power into it

they've never had a physical weapon just swing through a beam saber, because if that worked then the opposite could happen, if you swing a beam saber into a 80 ton zaku then the zaku could just overpower the sabre by virtue of having a lot of mass.

>>23731155
That anon is full of it. Norris didn’t heat the sword because he thought the power going to that would be better used elsewhere. Simple as. And he was right.

>>23731200
but where did it go

and why is gouf not strong enough to power everything

>>23730724
Theres a three month waiting list for Doms IF you get on M'quve's good side.
6 week list for Gouf and they aren't cleared for space combat yet.
And they're both limited quantity orders
I can get you Zakus for all your men by the beginning of the next episode. Cash or card?

>>23731199
It’s a fictional rapier that doesn’t crumple, it’s invincibly durable.
I’m actively taking a charged swing at you with a solid claymore and you go to defend by attempting to clash.
What happens?

A heat saber has far greater mass and therefore far greater inertia in a swing than a beam saber. It’s basic physics.

A GMs arm would be driven back considerably by a full swing from a heat saber or heat hawk.

>>23731206
No mobile suit is. They have limited operational time based on generator output and fuel reserves.
Norris probably knew he was going to be out in the field the entire day.

>>23731144
>AAAIIIEEE I'M BEING BONKED WHILE I CAN JUST KICK OR RUSH TO THRUST THE MACHINE GUN INTO THE GOUFY COCKPIT SAVE ME AINA

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>>23731193
>>23731212
Generally, heat weapons are never really shown to have thia proposed advantage.

>>23731237
Obviously the beam saber I-Field generates the pushing forces as a consequence of the heated emissions (source: I just made it up)

>>23731245
>>23731237
Isn't it exactly just the I-Field repulsion?

>>23731237
Which is why I said the creators seemingly glance over this technical fact.
A beam sabers “blade” is presumably weightless, therefore a heavy object being swung at it should drive it back with more force.
>>23731247
AFAIK the I-field isn’t pushing outwards, it’s pushing inwards to give the beam its shape.

We would need a legendarily autistic person with textbook Gundam technical knowledge of how these fictional weapons work in order to refute my grounded claim that this is a glanced over element of competing mobile suit technologies.

>>23731108
In 0079, or supplemental material I can't remember, it's explained that the actual difference between the Grandpa and a GM isn't that large of a gap, with the main difference being the Gundarium. As for Zeeks mowing GMs down en masse, well, somebody on the Feddie side has to die in large battle scenes and you can only soccer kick Balls so many times

>>23731251
>AFAIK the I-field isn’t pushing outwards, it’s pushing inwards to give the beam its shape.
Gundam wiki quotes 『総解説ガンダム辞典Ver1.5』講談社、2009年8月、41-42頁、ISBN 978-4-06-375795-8 and suggests there's a pushing outwards force nevertheless

>inb4
yeah but. y'know.

>>23731258
i imagine half the difference is what's in side the machine
>a newtype who ended up one of the most famous mobile suit pilots of the UC with several months of experience
vs.
>someone who has likely never had anything but simulator combat and started piloting this thing for real within the last week

>>23731261
Even if there is a “pushing outwards” force, the beam is still weightless or near weightless and carries almost all of its mass in its hilt, like a lightsaber.
Therefore, physical heat weapons should have a physics advantage in clashes.

I stand by this being a severely overlooked element of Fed MS vs Zeon MS.
>>23731258
Off the top of my head, RX-78 also has the learning computer and magnetic coating over the GM.

>>23731266
>Therefore, physical heat weapons should have a physics advantage in clashes.
We don't know how reactive the I-Field is though. Beam saber can slice through alloys like butter so that's a lot of raw energy

>>23731266
Learning computer is a useful tool but that data is given over to GMs later.

>>23731268
Yeah but that doesn’t matter.
If you had the sharpest rapier in the world, and I had a claymore, the inertia from my swing would overpower your rapier and drive it back.
Heat weapons cut through a combination of plasma heat and kinetics, not purely energy like a beam saber.

>>23731271
I thought the learning computer worked in tandem with Amuro Ray to potentate his skill as a pilot. Something like it remembering his best tactics and automatically reacting to threats. It’s been a while so i might be wrong.
Magnetic coating is at least a big up over a GM. It dramatically increased the Gundam’s physical latency.

>>23731245
>>23731247
I was reading about it on some Japanese sites a while back. Evidently, the mechanic is that heat weapons generate a level of electromagnetic force that can interact with the minovsky particle lattice that holds in the mega particles that make up a beam saber.

>>23731251
>>23731266
It's not really a matter of pushing inward or outward.

>>23731268
I've seen the beam saber described as having more destructive potential than a nuclear bomb at a smaller scale. Like absolutely obliterating titanium armor in less than a second is pretty insane.

>>23731273
Not if the rapier fucking explodes all over its blade without the blade evaporating

>>23730724
Legions of Zakus are not the way to go. Invest in beam suits, either the Gelgoog if you're a basic bitch with no taste and no appreciation for style and can ignore the dumb dog snout or the Gyan if you're cool

>>23731302
I’m not sure what you exactly mean by this, but heat blades can interact with beam blades without being damaged by them.
See:
>>23731237

Therefore, the heavier of the two will have more inertia when swung. End of story.

>>23731315
>I’m not sure what you exactly mean by this
My canon-based headcanon explanation: repulsion is by energy of collision between beam saber and a solid object triggering extra microexpansion and energy release from the beam saber I-Field, and this negates the effect of weight difference between the melee weapons

Sabers do fluctuate/flash on clashes

>>23731326
I can buy into what you say to a degree, but that same resistance would still be felt by the user in some equal amount. Newton’s third law of motion.

Ultimately, I’d like there to be a technical reason for heat weapons to be viable, otherwise everything is just beams forever. It’s a big reason I don’t like late U.C. works, everything is the same.

>>23731340
>Ultimately, I’d like there to be a technical reason for heat weapons to be viable, otherwise everything is just beams forever
Anti-beam chaff and Dom's beam diffusers absolutely don't affect heat weapons
Water would neuter them way less than it neuters beams

>>23731340
Heat weapons can be used even if damaged and not being able to be energized. Might be cheaper to make?

>>23730724
As a means to tide you over until you can switch fully to Goufs and Doms.

Until Zimmad can actually provide those MS and the necessary retraining has been done for your pilots, you will still need Zakus until the switchover is done fully.

>>23730796
KEK

>>23730796
Because Char's Zaku was never given a canon end I like to think it was dusted off by some Zeon remnants and used as a symbol of Spacenoid independence on a backwater hidden base somewhere

I thought beams had mass, as evidenced by things like the Beam Magnum having recoil, implying in some way that stored mega particles actually have weight. Would that weight mean anything when it comes to shaping a Beam Saber? No clue, and maybe I am totally retarded miss remembering something here, but I don't think beam sabers are necessarily weightless. There's that scene in unicorn where that Jegan's beam saber shortens significantly into a beam knife, and I don't know if that implies you can shorten blades for more cutting power aloud by the denser mass of particles. Granted, I could just be retarded, and UC came after a lot of this other Gundam material was established, so it could be pointless to bring up. It just seems to me that beam weapons having recoil implies a degree of weight to beams themselves. There's that scene of the Atlas Gundam in Thunderbolt using its beam saber to propel itself through the water at max input, and I have no idea how it would do this otherwise.

>>23730724
Ask germany and russia what wins wars: performance, or production? A mobile suit that goes three times as fast is just a more expensive firework unless you've got an ace to put in the thing. The zaku II is versatile. It's reliable. It shares a common production base with numerous more specialized suits which means ALL your techs know how to maintain it and have the parts on hand, not just the ones on the ship it was assigned to. But more importantly, it's cheap.

>>23730741
>What good is cheap?
Simple. If every Zaku II blows up a single GM before being blown up, you win, because you've forced the other side to spend more money and resources manufacturing a more expensive but equally effective weapon, and the vast majority of their pilots lack the skill to fully utilize that enhanced performance anyway. You don't build an army around the skills of it's aces, you build it around the skills of it's novices.

>>23731046
>If I had to come up with a reason why beyond “Zeon has better pilots"
How about this: Zeon has more experienced pilots because they've been fielding mobile suits much longer than the federation has when the GM is introduced. They've had months more cockpit time to get used to piloting a mobile suit. They aren't necessarily better, but they've got a hell of a head start.

>>23731144
The Gouf Custom's Heat Sword never glowing was one of those attempts to make the regular Gouf's weapons more "realistic." Just like how the power paw finger guns became a separate piece and the heat rod is now a more basic looking grappling hook.

>>23732299
I agree with you and that is my interpretation too, but also >>23731172

>>23732299
I really like those more cartoony elements to the vanilla Gouf. Especially the heat rod, the old heat rod was something you could beat someone to death with

>>23732200
>Ask germany and russia what wins wars: performance, or production?
Lend-lease.

Didn’t the Gouf originally have a beam saber?

>>23732770
no

>>23732770
No, it's transparent and extends out of its hilt, but apparently it was made of heat-treated expanding memory polymer. While my meory is unreliable, in TV terms I think Ramba Ral is the only one who's ever been shown using that particular type of heat saber, and every grunt Gouf in 0079 just uses the heat rod, Zaku machine guns, and the finger machine guns.

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>>23730724
OP thinks he has any say in what he gets.....

>>23732425
Yeah the Gouf Custom was always a sauceless imitation of a true king.

>>23732770
Yes(no).