Oooof, but completely unsurprising. Ninja Scroll figures continue to be cursed.

>>11689587
They shilled the fuck out of this for months in order to secure enough preorders to produce it, and after 2 years they just can it? Wtf happened?

>>11689587
Glad I went through BBTS for my Pre-Order. I sniffed out this thing failing months ago and it's real easy to cancel from them.

It's a shame, while Fwoosh don't make great figures, any Ninja Scroll figures in this day and age would've been cool. Their Ninja were decent enough and this guy had potential to at least be Marvel Legends tier quality, so it's a shame it's not getting made.

>>11689587
Based, Fuck Robo

>>11689587
Welp, at least those skeletons they were making are still up to receive afaik.

>>11690126
over priced crap, five below has better options

>>11690114
Robo bailed on Fwoosh a long time ago. It's just been that one guy who tried to run the Fwoosh Toys leg of it. Pabs, I think is his name?

>Wonder why they decided to cancel, not enough orders?
No, it's one guy trying to run all of Fwoosh Toys and mismanaging money. Pre-orders for items years out and collecting money immediately, continuously trying to still shill those crappy Ninjas from like a decade ago that were bad back then and awful by today's standards, everyone else at Fwoosh leaving the company because they didn't agree with his business decisions, etc.

Pretty sure these Ninja Scroll figures were originally scheduled to come out like a year or year and a half ago and he never even showed a single update of them making it to the factory stage. If they had started tooling, which should have been started at least a year or two ago, these wouldn't be canceled because that's the most expensive step.

>>11690126
LOL good luck with that.

lmao imagine thinking this would succeed day 1

>>11690114
Robo left fwoosh like 2 years ago m8

I forgot they were even going to be making these. Ah well

So why was it canceled? Anyone know?

>>11690183
Not a lot of companies actually go through a step by step process if it's not done through Kickstarter. Companies like Four Horsemen ask for interest-free loans from their fans and has never documented those processes (and considering some of their mishaps, it's like they themselves don't even look at production either). So it's common for toy companies to not make any announcements until it's almost ready to ship.

Delays are usually announced though, especially when they have retail support. If there's a delay, most small companies are likely going to face financial trouble, due to the costs involved.
Given all the bullshit that's been going on since COVID, I'm surprised a lot more companies haven't folded. MAterial shortages. Fuel shortages. Shipping delays. Labor costs going up. Tariffs. Plus, people buying less shit due to all these shortages/delays/labor driving up prices... it's seriously a bit crazy people were still trying to buy shit like they used to and crazier still so many companies have remained in business.

>>11690252
Right, but if tooling had even been started, these would come out eventually. Tooling costs many thousands of dollars and is the most expensive part of the process. It's also done very early on in the production process so it's sounding like not much happened in the 2 years or whatever since they opened the pre orders.

>>11690185
Well the Skeletons did come out, they sucked and were awkward, but they did get made. Now Fresh Monkey Fiction either owns the molds or are licensing them as they plan to put out some of those Fwoosh Skeletons under their Monster Force line.

>>11690252
>interest-free loans
This was a dumb term a decade ago and it's still a dumb term today.

>>11690257
Not always the case, I remember a Kickstarter that was doing Skeletons and generic soldiers that got to the tooling stages and even had the Skeletons produced, but because of QC issues they had to get touched up over and over again until the guy just ran out of money and ghosted the whole project. There were actual physical figures made, but without funds to finish and finalize everything, all of em probably ended up being scrapped.

Chinese factories will also hold product hostage if they feel they can get away with it, They did it to the 4H way back when and it was only because guys at NECA got involved did it sort of get sorted. 4H lost a lot of their older molds in the process but they seemed to learn from it as their current factories seem way better. It also helps they have a MUCH larger, very consistent output, as a constant flow of product keeps a factory happy.

>>11690257
Unfortunately, if you have $50,000, spent $30,000 on tooling and then $25,000 on material+labor and then some fuck up happens and they want $9k more to fix it.... you really odn't have enough money to fix it and then have it shipped.

There's a reason why these companies are asking for money up front for these projects. They can't get bank loans like a normal, healthy company can, so if trouble arises, they can't pay the $10k difference and they lose everything.
Asking your customers for additional money is the worst thing any company can do, since you'll likely get threatened by a lawsuit. And announcing another product to raise funds isn't a great idea either and people usually recognize this for what it is.... and you should never support this shit either (unless it's already made)

BUT who knows what's up with Fwoosh. People are getting refunded, so they obviously have money.
That's why I'm asking why it was canceled. Maybe it's just China being China and trying to fuck Fwoosh over. Instead of getting fucked over even more, Fwoosh called it quits before they get buried even more by a deceitful factory.

>>11690273
>This was a dumb term a decade ago and it's still a dumb term today.
It's exactly what it is.
From your cowlike consumer perspective, it's just a preorder.

From a business perspective, it's an interest free loan. They can't afford getting a regular bank loan because the 6-11% interest rate is too expensive or because their business is too flaky for a bank to trust them with one in the first place. So in order to raise funds, they turn to their community to produce their products.
Since most of these companies want to produce toys BEYOND what the consumers are going to order (future orders), they're also padding out the prices for each figure. So if you buy ONE figure, the price is set so that 3-5 figures are able to be produced.

If you ever look at collector lines before, the price for collector toys are usually $2-8 more expensive than children toys sold at Walmart, like Marvel Legends being $15 while a NECA figure was $17 (in 2014). While something like the 4H Raven was $45.
So as consumer, you're paying 2x, but in reality, you're actually paying 4-5x thanks to being the sole monetary funds for the toyline.
You have to remember that you're buying DIRECTLY from the toy company when doing the interest free loan method, versus buying a Predator or Marvel LEgend figure from a store that bought it wholesale from Hasbro or a distributor (whoj bought it from Hasbro). At wholesale, a toy's 40-70% of the MSRP.

Another bitch about the interst free loan method is that NOTHING gets produced until they raise their funds (and the money gets into their bank account). So it takes about a year for something to get shipped to you. Whereas a toy company who gets loans is able to start production before anything is even ordered, thus consumers get their toys much faster from their announcement date. Hence most things announced at Toy Fair arriving 2-6 months later.

>>11690126
Come on man, surely there are better skeleton toys out there.

>>11691055
Literally everything you said is absolute bullshit. From the price of the Ravens, and other similar toylines of the time, to how businesses work, to even using the term you been trying to make a thing for a decade. The very fact you're trying to push getting loans with INTEREST as somehow a good thing is the most absurd idea anyone has ever spouted on this website in my entire time here. Stop being dumb.

>>11691065
There are many, MANY better Skeleton toys out there. I only got one of the Fwoosh things and that was enough for me. And again, I liked their Ninja and feel their Samurai figures were *great* when bought at a discount. But those skeletons were just bad when stuff like Storm Collectables, Boss Fight Studios and even weird stuff like the Kulu World skeletons existed at the time. Now you can just get the Keep Going ones who look fantastic and are pretty dirty cheap all things considered. If that Monster Force two pack Crusader set used ANY other Skeletons I would've been all over it, but paying that much for two Fwoosh bones was not worth it.

>>11689587
There is so much shady shit that happens in the toy industry, i don't know why people trust any toy store or company.

>>11691092
that's what happens when you almost always have to rely solely on the shady chinese factories and they know you don't have many other options.

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>>11691090
>banks don't give out loans and expect the borrower to pay it back with interest
>toy companies don't borrow money to produce toylines
>kickstarter fundraisers aren't last chance attempts at producing something when they can't raise funds through traditional ways
>toy companies aren't producing extra units of toys through the funds that they're raising money
>their toy prices arent inflated many times over
Are you 6 years old or are you retarded? Even an 8 year old has a basic understanding of how businesses work.

Again, the price for something that this is to cover YOUR figure plus 2-5 other figures that 4H was seeking to get made, because this is the only way they can raise money to produce a toyline. They produced 2-3x as many figures than were actually ordered, so that they could sell them on a later date, plus their profits.

I really don't understand what you think is bullshit, because how else does do businesses and banks work?

>but it's literally not an interest free loan!!!
still doesn't change the fact that that's effectively what it is. instead of a bank giving them money to make the toyline happen, expecting a repayment plus interest (let's say 150% return), customers give them the money to make the toyline they get a toy in return (or 20-30% return).
You are not paying just for the toy like a normal preorder, you're literally paying for your toy PLUS 2-5 others

>>11691137
>You are not paying just for the toy like a normal preorder, you're literally paying for your toy PLUS 2-5 others
This might be the single funniest thing you've ever said.

>>11691137
>banks don't give out loans and expect the borrower to pay it back with interest
There are better options to raise funds then going to banks..

>toy companies don't borrow money to produce toylines
Most successful ones don't, no. They use profits from previous releases to fund future releases. That's kind of how a good business is supposed to work.

>kickstarter fundraisers aren't last chance attempts at producing something when they can't raise funds through traditional ways
They aren't, they're alternative means to raise capital through direct investments from people who support the company and the product in exchange for something. In this case I give company money to produce it's product and in exchange...I get product.

>toy companies aren't producing extra units of toys through the funds that they're raising money
Production units are based on estimated quantities a business expects to sell combined with set minimums from a factory on it's ability to produce said number. If a company expects to sell 427 figures and a factory has a minimum of 500 units orders for a production run, the company will have to make 500 of said units. If a company expects to sell 327....then they will still need 500 units made as that's a minimum production number from the factory.

>their toy prices arent inflated many times over
They are, by retailers. Buying from a secondary seller instead of direct from the manufacturing company will increase costs. That's why 4H products have higher prices from their Retail Partners while initial pre-order sales are lower priced. You get the lowest price ordering direct from the manufacturer.

And again, NO company would want to constantly take out loans to make something new. Doing that is *literally* throwing away money. That is an ATROCIOUS business model. Interest is a BAD thing and the only people who actually like interest are the loan companies who make money by doing absolutely nothing.

Again, stop being stupid.

>>11691092
>>11691101
Smaller companies are especially vulnerable to that kind of bullshit. For starters, their lack of experience makes them easy targets from predation. On top of that, being smaller makes it less likely you'll be able to secure time at a more reliable factory, instead you'll most likely make deals with cheaper, less renown factories and have to deal with less quality workers. Smaller companies often have less access to good representation in the factories as well, which can lead to an increase in miscommunication which can cause problems even from factories who *aren't* trying to scam the company. And having an intermittent product schedule will just make you less desirable to the good factories, once again limiting your options to cheaper, less reliable workers.

Running a toy company is not an easy job, especially for smaller teams and companies.

>>11691209
>There are better options to raise funds then going to banks..
yeah, but it's still common (HASBRO here: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/46080/000095015723000938/ex10-1.htm MATTELl here: https://contracts.justia.com/companies/mattel-inc-6805/contract/254375/ ) to go to banks instead of asking for an interest free loan directly from their customers. By going to banks, you build up credit in order to fund shit, instead of needing to get an interest free loan from your consumer base.
> That's kind of how a good business is supposed to work
sup middle schooler? Want some candy?
You have a super simplistic understanding of how businesses operate.

>They are, by retailers
I don't know if Fwoosh had any retail support at first, but 4H didn't. You were paying 4H directly and they didn't get any retail support until years later, and even then, stores like BBTS inflated their prices above 4H's own prices, which means 4H didnt give them normal wholesale prices.

And you clearly have no idea how many units 4H was selling. They sold their stuff online afterward and at conventions for years. So they were definitely making 2-4x as much stock, so again, it wasn't a straight up preorder.

But if you watn to pretend $45 was just to make a 2002-era quality toy while other companies like NECA were making better articulated figures for $17 at retail (so wholesale price is $8 or less).... well, do you want come down to my van down by the river for some candy?
I also have a bridge i can sell you.

>>11691223
.....both Mattel AND Hasbro have their own Crowdfunding systems in place for high ticket, low demand items.

And yes, 4H and Fwoosh both had retail support, the Ravens were sold on BBTS at absurdly marked up prices and BBTS also put in a huge order for Fwooshes NInjas that couldn't go through Kickstarter (they also had pre-orders for the Ninja Scroll figures).

And yes, we DO know the numbers the 4H were producing, it was literally written on their cases and easy to deduce. And you could actually *see* how many units were for sale on their site, and still can to this day. They even talked about how they accidentally over-ordered Swigg by making 1000 of him and ended up making an event out of it at Legionscon by inviting everyone to bring their own Swiggs, who they also practically gave away when they did that blind box bullshit sale, to take a big group picture of them all. He's still up for sale at his shop btw, approximately 227 of him left in stock.

And again, the birds were NOT $45, only the initial pledge for one was priced like that and that's because it included shipping. The birds were $33 each, which BBTS marked up to $75 each. For Legions, the 4H capped the retail markup and all of their Partners now have the same MSRP, which is higher then the initial 4H price, but reasonably so.

And the birds had way better articulation then anything NECA put out at the time, and honestly are still better then most releases today, at which NECA's products were almost similarly priced but far lower quality.

So now you're not just being dumb, you're actively lying.

>>11691258
>.....both Mattel AND Hasbro have their own Crowdfunding systems in place for high ticket, low demand items.
And a lot of people rightfully complain about it

>the Ravens were sold on BBTS at absurdly marked up prices
MONTHS later AND after they were sold out on 4H's own store.
Guess how they managed to create those figures? With YOUR interest free loan, because you "preordered" their overpriced figures from Kickstarter.
And the prices are absurd because they didn't give BBTS wholesale prices.
All this proves how those $45 is to produce more than just your preorder and profits.

>it included shipping
LOL, no. Even TODAY shipping isn't that expensive.

>now you're not just being dumb, you're actively lying
Says the 7 year old who doesn't understand how important banks are to a business, what wholesale prices are, and is pretending shipping in 2015 was $12
Nevermind the price of toys in 2014 was nowhere anywhere close to justfiying 4H's prices.... except if you understand the fact that Kickstarters are to start a business and the figures are literally just "rewards" to fund 4H starting their Mythic LEgion line. The fact that 4H continued to rip off their customers by charging as much as they do when you buy directly from them is just 4H being assholes.
Every company who has retail support is at least justified and 4H didn't get official support until like 2018 or 2019.

>>11691090
Man I hate that the Keepgoing skellies just come with a pair of hands, granted for the price I can't complain, but still.

>>11691275
>And a lot of people rightfully complain about it
Dumb people complain about a lot of stuff they don't understand. Thanks for setting that example btw.

>MONTHS later AND after they were sold out on 4H's own store.
The 4H got the figures first, shipped out the rewards to the individual backers and THEN sent stock to BBTS. BBTS bought them through the Kickstarter just like everyone else, it wasn't until future releases that they started getting direct orders.

Yes, the 4H didn't get full retail support right out the gate, but they didn't have a full production stream at that point either. Kickstarter was a new concept, especially in the toy markets and the 4H showed it could be a successful way to start a new toyline. But even in those early stages retailers were buying 4H products, just in a less direct manner.

>LOL, no. Even TODAY shipping isn't that expensive.
I literally worked part time in a shipping store, yes shipping was that expensive, even moreso today. The 4H's high shipping prices were one of their biggest issues in the early days. Even now the cheapest their shipping gets is $10 flat rare. If you don't have a deal in place with a shipping company, shipping is VERY expensive. Hell, most kickstarters STILL charge similar prices for shipping because $12 is a good average price.

And again, only the first bird cost $45, every subsequent one bought was $33, even if you bought them from the 4H store. With Legions, you could even get figures for as low as $16, which rivaled even Marvel Legends at the time. NECA was well into the $25 range by then and their products were way shittier.

I get it, your dad works for a bank and you're pissed people aren't giving them free money because direct funding is better for companies then taking high interest loans. No reason to make shit up and act like a fool over it, I'm sure your dad can still afford your nuggies and apple juice from Mcdonalds.

>>11691294
The lack of gripping hands is what limited me to two of em. Hopefully they're really good figures though, don't have anything else from the company so don't know what to expect.

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>>11691297
>making shit up after proving he doesn't understand how businesses and banks work
I really love how you ignore the fact that BBTS didn't carry the Birds line until months after 4H sold out of the birds on their own store.

Again, where do those come from when they had to ask for an interest free loan from their customers? 4H obviously wasn't using their own money to make these figures, hence needing to turn to Kickstarter in the first place.
Nevermind American collector companies were producing better figures at the time for half the price at retail (or 5-4x wholesale) which again shows how inflated 4H prices were and proves those $45 wasn't just for your own figures you preordered.

pic of how full of shit you are about how much shipping costs. Again, these are TODAY'S prices and 4H would undoubtedly had business account for even cheaper prices in 2014/2015. USPS isn't even the cheapest option either, especially not back then.

But i know, I'm talking to a dumbshit 7 year old, who doesn't understand anything.
Or a basement dwelling downy.

subby ruins yet another thread

>>11689587
The main guy in ninja scroll was a cuck for not fucking the poison bitch

>>11691339
This was a dead thread to begin with so it's not like anything of value was lost.

>>11691339
>you ruined this thread by explaining how businesses and banks work!
I'm sorry for contradicting your childish beliefs, but asking for money upfront before a toyline is produced is basically an interest free loan, especially when you're paying for the stock that will made to be stocked in 4 Horsemen's own store and BBTS.
A toy in 2014 should never cost $45, even if that includes shipping and it's sad that you don't even understand what Kickstarter even is.

>>11692410
>you don't even understand what Kickstarter even is
Considering you compared Hasbro (who still beg customers for "interest free loans" despite having access to infinite credit due to constant cashflow from multiple releases per month) to small indie companies starting a new toyline shows that you probably don't understand what Kickstarter is.
Reminder that even major companies beg for "interest free loans" for toys that end up at retail.
https://toyhabits.com/sea-saucer-bat-multicraft-super-powers-mcfarlane-crowdfund/

>>11692431
>literal retard beliefs
wow, we got a real life retard who's never left his mommy's bossom for longer than an hour, because you have no idea how reliant small businesses are on banks.
Small businesses are 1000000x more dependant on banks than giant conglomerates like Hasbro are and again shows how fucking important loans are even to giant conglomerates despite them making hundreds of millions of dollars a year in just profits.

It's great that Kickstarter exists, which helps out small businesses like 4H who got rejected by banks for loans, but KS is literally doing the same thing a bank would do for a small business: giving loans to help start a business. Except those loans are interest free.

So much mad and cope, because you falsely believed that your $45 preorder was a fair price in 2014 despite the fact better toys were being released $17 at retail back then and shipping was super cheap compared to today's prices.
You've already proven you don't even understand what Kickstarter is too.

>>11692478
>opens with ad hominem and continues to strawman for the rest of his reply
I see you still haven't figured out how to read. Come back here when you have US citizenship and at least 2 full years of English lessons and maybe you will be able to actually argue against the points I made.
Also I'm not the anon that you were originally arguing with, so it's not my $45 preorder. Good job thinking that everyone on this board that can see you are full of shit is the same person.

I have no horse in this race, but anon who thinks $45 for a super limited run figure compared to mass produced stuff you find in stores that was approaching $20 at the time is just the most insane thing ever is nuts. A small production run of figures from a small company will always be multiples more expensive than the mass produced stuff at stores. Is that so hard to understand? Economies of scale.

>>11692500
>retard who doesn't understand how banks work and how businesses need loans trying to use the word "strawman"

>>11692507
Here's what the the retard doesn't understand: they weren't super limited runs.

Kickstarter isn't a preorder system, and to legally protect themselves, it's why they call what you buy from there "rewards" and everyone who who funds the projects are "backers", because it's basically just a fundraising platform.
The Kickstarter was made to fund the entire toyline that they wanted to start, hence having enough stock to sell on their store after shipping everything backers and BBTS to scalp them for their own store.
So the money the backers paid was to fund an entire toyline for the next few years, because they made enough stock to sell afterward AND enough molds to produce more toys in later years.

>Economies of scale.
It's not that extreme though. This is why i brought up NECA and Hasbro earlier. Despite Hasbro selling action figures in the hundreds of thousands and NECA in the mid-ten thousands, the price differences is only $2-5.
Again, this is why that retard needs to pretend that shipping so high in 2014, because he knows how steep $45 is for an action figure.

And just to make it extra clear, a few years earlier, 4H was selling their own line (without asking for interest free loans because back then the banks still trusted them) for $20-30. And back then they had a reason to, because they had retailers ordering these figures (actually ultra limited with 250 made), so there was actual wholesale prices back then. The Birds nor Mythic Legion figures had no wholesale prices until maybe 2019 (and even then, retailers had to increase the prices due to how greedy 4H is)

>>11692542
>Despite Hasbro selling action figures in the hundreds of thousands and NECA in the mid-ten thousands, the price differences is only $2-5.
I think that smaller difference is more so the difference in overhead. Neca only has like 50 or so employees and one small office. Hasbro has multiple large offices all over the world and thousands of employees.

>>11692542
>Again, this is why that retard needs to pretend that shipping so high in 2014, because he knows how steep $45 is for an action figure.
The $45 included a flat rate for shipping where you could add as many figures as you wanted for $33 each and didn't have to pay additional shipping cost.
>because back then the banks still trusted them
You mean because back then when there were no laws prohibiting banks from the kind of predatory and irresponsible lending that led to the GFC, which were introduced in the middle of 2010 when Scarabus was in the middle of being tooled.
As usual you take a half truth and then twist it to fit your own agenda. You are the unreliable narrator of /toy/.

>>11692549
? I think you have it backwards? Hasbro toys cost less despite having 1000000x more overhead costs than NECA.
And you're ignoring the fact that 4H used to be ~$2-4 more than NECA. Funny enough, 4H used to have more articulation too, but they went backwards in 2014 while raising prices way up.

>>11692602
>the downey is defending subsidizing other people's shipping
lol. This is exactly why i skipped their Kickstarter, because i only wanted the Raven and i knew they were going to sell it later and i didn't want to pay their rip off shipping price.

>You mean because back then when there were no laws prohibiting banks from the kind of predatory and irresponsible lending that led to the GFC
LMAO
So you're saying that 4H should have never been given a loan, because banks knew their business model was that shit and banks just wanted to rip off a couple of retards?
LOL. Holy fuck, you have no idea what you're even trying to say when trying to defend 4H.

I seriously can't stop laughing at how assbackwards your defense for 4H is, because you ahve no idea how banks and businesses work. Nor how shipping works. Nor how kickstarter works.

>>11692668
>the downey is defending subsidizing other people's shipping
Hell yeah, I'm defending poorfags who can only afford one figure subsidizing my shipping for 10 figures. Get on my level. Sorry, I guess you'd have to be able to afford more than one toy a year to get multiple figures in a Kickstarter.
>So you're saying that 4H should have never been given a loan
No.
You've already shown that you twist facts to suit your agenda, so you are going to double down and keep doing it after being called out for it? Are you really that retarded?
Apparently you are.
Since you are clearly retarded, I will spell it out for you.

At that point, 4H released less than a dozen figures every year or so. In the past, banks had no restrictions on lending them money, despite the fact that they didn't have a steady stream of revenue, and any earnings from the products they took a loan out to develop were a year or more away.
That all changed after 2010. Loaning a business that doesn't have constant revenue is a risky loan, and regulators enforced stricter, more conservative assessments of risk for loans provided by banks. Even if 4H had paid back every loan they had taken out for the Minotaurs through to Scarabus, the rules for risk assessment changed.
It wasn't because the banks thought they were untrustworthy or retarded or any of the ways that you want to twist it in your feeble little mind.

And I know that no matter how I explain it to you, you will disingenuously pick out one sentence and misrepresent it like you have done with my previous reply, like you always do, all to get me to reply to you because you crave the attention that your parents obviously never gave you.
>I seriously can't stop laughing
It might be related to the mental illness that causes you to sperg out about Four Horsemen at every given opportunity. They really do live in your head rent free.

>>11692906
>downy who lied about how much shipping costs, doesn't know how kickstarter works, and pretends businesses don't need banks wants to deny how 4H couldn't get a loan after banks stopped giving loans to any dumbshit
LMAO
Are you getting AI to write your shit, because you have NO UNDERSTANDING of what you're TRYING to deny. By writing everything out, you're CONFIRMING what I've been saying.

Banks USED to be loose in giving out loans, hence 4H getting loans and making toylines without asking for interest free loans from their fanbase. They produced toys first and then got orders, like healthy companies do. Once banks were sitting on a shit ton of bad loans, they started to be more selective. They then gave out loans to companies who had business models that could pay back their loans, thus 4H could no longer get a loan from banks. This is why the Scarabus figures were delayed for years.

So 4H had to turn to asking for interest free loans to fund their toyline. They sold $45 figures to fans so that they could produce 3-4 more figures and sell those on a later date.
Their toys were 2-3x more expensive than anything else at the time despite selling directly to the consumer AND not willing to give wholesale prices to any store. Super fucking greedy.

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>>11693709
oh, and just to show some contrast in how Kickstarters who want to start toylines usually behave.
Shit like pic were SUPER FUCKING amazing deals.

It was at least 50% off what you pay at retail, because you were buying directly from the toy company and of course, helping raise funds to get this shit started.

Once this line got funded and popular they started to limit how many people could actually fund the later kickstarters, because retailers were now carrying the line.

Other toy companies who had retailers in mind for their kickstarter also kept the price with wholesale in mind, thus the reward prices having a bit of a discount or same price as MSRP.

Again, 4H didn't get retail support until almost 5 years later and most retailers charge more than 4H does, because 4H doesn't give proper wholesale prices.

>>11693709
>Are you getting AI to write your shit
No, only you use AI. You've posted screenshots of you using AI.
USING selective caps-lock WORDS for EMPHASIS doesn't mean your LIES and HALF-TRUTHS have been CONFIRMED.

>Once banks were sitting on a shit ton of bad loans, they started to be more selective
Yes, it was entirely a coincidence that "banks got more selective" after the Frank-Dodd act passed in 2010. I bet it was entirely voluntary on the banks behalf, because banks don't want potentially higher profits from asset seizure after borrowers default on their loans than they would get just from interest. Sure, banks totally voluntarily quit giving loans to companies that have never defaulted where there was a slight chance that they could get more profit from asset seizure. It was totally voluntary. No, it definitely didn't take the government stepping in.

And it's convenient that you completely ignore the part about risk assessment where even if a company had paid back every loan and had no history of defaulting, the new regulations around risk assessment were stricter.

It's not because the banks don't trust 4H, as you constantly claim. You might as well be claiming that you can't buy a bump stock because the owner of the local gun shop doesn't trust you. Probably a bad example because with your mental health history, you'd never pass a background check in California anyway.

>>11693721
>comparing a TTRPG that came unassembled and unpainted to a wave of action figures
Lol.
You are really getting desperate. Just ignore that the profit margins of those games are far greater than an action figure which is why they can give such huge discounts. Since you are a fatso that loves food analogies, you might as well compare an ice cube to a hamburger.

>>11693792
>NO U!!!
>NUH UH!!
Exactly the arguments i'd expect from someone with Downs syndrome.

>Yes, it was entirely a coincidence that "banks got more selective" after the Frank-Dodd act passed in 2010. I bet it was entirely voluntary on the banks behalf, because banks don't want potentially higher profits from asset seizure after borrowers default on their loans than they would get just from interest.
LMAO
Seriously, dude, why are you even arguing with me if you're confirming everything i say?

Banks never stopped giving out loans to companies they could trust money with. They only stopped giving it to retards who shit on their customers like 4H.
4H can't be trusted, hence being rejected by the banks who previously gave them loans, yet here you are trying to be a contrarian to defend the company who shit out brittle toys for a decade.

>You are really getting desperate.
They're still a toy company who made a hundred million molded toys for their customers. It's little different from 4H, except Reapers has a business model that didn't involve ripping off their fanbase and growing retail support.
Nevermind other companies like Boss Fight and other toy companies exist who also gave discounts to customers and also had retail support almost right away.

>>11693849
>why are you even arguing with me if you're confirming everything i say?
Good lord, are you so autistic that you couldn't detect the obvious sarcasm?
How the fuck can you be this dense?
Seriously. It's not even subtle sarcasm.

I'm not agreeing with you. Please get those English lessons, because I'm not agreeing with your half truths like "banks don't trust 4H."
Everything you say is a distortion of the truth.
You are a compulsive liar that takes a grain of the truth and then twists it to fit your insane agenda.
And the fact that you have turned 3 threads in a little over a week into reasons to seethe about Four Horsemen is proof that you really do have an insane agenda.

>>11693871
>I was only pretending to be retarded... because I first said that business don't need banks... until i got AI to make my posts for me... and then you called me out when i didn't understand that AI was confirming everything you said. ... My constantly moving goalposts were just sarcasm actually!
>but because you word it negatively when a bank doesn't trust 4H with their money that means you're insane!
LOL!
It's always about fucking tone with you downies. Being mean isn't an automatic you win button anywhere but on PBS Kids.

I don't get why you take shit about 4H so personally. I mean, i know that 4H are figuratively retarded, because of the moronic decisions they make, but are they as downy retarded as you? If you're a 4H employee/owner, are you still mad that banks rejected your loan applications because of how shitty your business is run?

It's 15 years since banks stopped trusting you with their money, yet you're still holding a grudge?

>>11693881
>yet you're still holding a grudge?
You should look in the mirror as you ask that question.

>>11692478
>Small businesses are 1000000x more dependant on banks
No small business will survive if it has to keep taking out loans. If a business needs constant loans that means it's *not making money*, and having to repay a loan with interest means you are actively losing money.

>KS is literally doing the same thing a bank would do for a small business: giving loans to help start a business
That is absolutely not what Kickstarter does. That's the exact opposite of what Kickstarter does. Kickstarter does nothing but connect people looking for investors with people willing to invest, Kickstarter is just an advertising platform and nothing more.

>Except those loans are interest free.
Good, I would hate for ANY throw away money like that. I would much rather they invest money that back into the company itself because paying interest is BAD.

Again, stop being dumb.

>>11692507
The figures weren't even $45, they were $33, the extra $12 was only for the initial pledge because it included flat rate shipping.

>>11692906
>At that point, 4H released less than a dozen figures every year or so. In the past, banks had no restrictions on lending them money, despite the fact that they didn't have a steady stream of revenue, and any earnings from the products they took a loan out to develop were a year or more away.

Their main revenue stream back then was freelance sculpting for other companies, something they still do today. Even then though they didn't go to banks for loans....because that's dumb. Instead they partnered with various other websites and stores for initial investments to produce a wave of figures, and then supplied those websites with said figures to sell, including exclusive releases. They eventually turned to Kickstarter because that's a literal direct line to fans as investors, and that method has been wildly successful for them multiple times.

>>11694392
>No small business will survive if it has to keep taking out loans
I'm glad you understand this part. And how often is 4H asking their fanbase for interest free loans?
Again, most other companies are already producing shit BEFORE they ask for preorders. 4H doesn't do SHIT until they get your money for their inflated priced toys.
So how healthy is 4H's business model? Do you understand why banks won't give 4H loans?
>KS isn't a way to get a large sum of money to start a business/make a product and doesn't take the place of a bank loan
sure is playing stupid... but someone with downs syndrome like you doesn't know how to play, huh?

>The figures weren't even $45
Literally were. Every single starting option to get the toy from the Kickstarter included that "shipping fee". And even if you pretend the figure is only $33, that shipping fee in 2014 costs more than shipping is today to ship THREE figures.
>bb--b-b-but if you order more than that you get a good deal!
ooof, imagine everyone who only ordered the base figure subsidizing the costs for a few people who ordered more than 3.
And those $33 is still twice the cost of a collector toy from a small company at the time (who sold shit at retail) and also costs MORE than 4H's own figures from year before despite selling it directly to their customers without any retail support for 5 years.
No matter how you look at it, 4H inflated their prices and ripped off their customers. Normal businesses margins are 30-50% ($16 MSRP collector toy at retail and retail ordered the toy at $8 wholesale), yet 4H's is 200% based on how they charged for their toys ($45 toy with no retail support, so 4H kept the entire $45. If we pretend every single figure cost $12 to ship a 7ounce toy in 2014 they're still keeping $33).

>>11693881
>it's not because I'm lying, you just don't like my tone. And if you don't let me lie unchallenged that means you are taking it personally
Can you go a day without making a fallacious argument? This is why every thread on the board from Gi Joe to Star Wars hates you.
>i know that 4H are figuratively retarded
Says the literal retard. When are you going to get over the fact you broke a couple of accessories? The fact that you are still seething about a company over a couple of pieces of plastic show how emotionally stunted you are. Like a toddler throwing a tantrum because there was no straw in his juice box, except that tantrum has been going for nearly a decade.
>yet you're still holding a grudge?
Self reflection isn't something you are capable of, right?

>>11694735
>doesn't know how banks work
>doesn't know how businesses require loans to fund shit
>doesn't know how kickstarter works
>thought 4H was only offering a way to preorder their toys
>thought $45 for a toy in 2014 was a fair price
>doesn't know how much shipping costs 11 years ago nor how much it costs today
>thinks he's using the term "fallacious argument" correctly
>derailed a thread about Fwoosh into a 4H defense thread because someone used them as an example of how money up front leads to bad consequences
>calling anynoe else a retard because he was called a downie for not understanding basic concepts
LOL

And yeah, i have a grudge against 4H and rightfully so. I supported 4H for about 2 decades. I overpaid for their products, because i wanted them to make more products. In return, they ripped me off by using low quality plastics. Every wave, there was promise that they'd improve and learn from their mistakes, but every wave had the same problem and introduced new problems. Then they had the nerve to make an hour long video to insult everyone who complained. Anyone would be angry after being personally affected by those issues and being personally insulted.

No one should be angry that they got rejected from a bank loan because their business model is awful and they can't self fund a toyline without an interest free loan. No one should be angry that someone warns others that the Mythic Legion line has had over a decade of problems and that 4H isn't trusted by banks.

>>11696169
Your entire post is an admission that you need therapy. Holding a decade long grudge over a couple of broken pieces of plastic? Clutching your pearls about a YouTube video that you never watched that was about a wave of toys that you never bought that was from 4 years after you stopped buying their toys? The amount of mental illnesses in this one post is astonishing.
And you are retarded because you clearly have a developmental delay disorder that causes you to cry about broken toys for 9 years when most elementary school children are capable of getting over something like that pretty quickly. You also can't detect obvious sarcasm.
I don't mean it just as an insult because I disagree with you, or because you attempted to insult me.
You are literally retarded.

>No one should be angry that they got rejected from a bank
No one should be angry about a broken toy from nearly a decade ago, but once again, I'm not a 4H employee,. Accusing everybody that calls you out on your bullshit of being an employee reveals how your schizo mind works.
And I've just realized that I've been arguing against your assertion/assumption that they got rejected by the banks, but I don't think they've ever said it. You should post proof that they were rejected by the banks. Proof. Not circumstantial evidence or conjecture.
Proof.

>>11696257
>you're not allowed to get mad over a company who fucked up for almost 10 years straight by making some of the worst business decisions ever, insulting their customers, and making brittle toys, but I'm allowed to get mad at you because you insult them!
lmao

Also love how you're attackign me instead of proving what I say is wrong, but i guess you can't defend how banks don't trust 4H with their money because of how shitty their business model is and how 4H needs to ask their fans to fund their toylines with interest free loans

>b-b-b-but it's not an interest free loan!
Yeah, you don't understand figurative language because you're a Downie and this is why you take criticism about 4H so personally.
I mean, if you don't have Downs Syndrome, then you're 4H employee because who else would take what i say about 4H's blunders so personally?

>b-b-but there's no proof that they were rejected by a bank!
brah, you realize that they were getting loans before, right? This is how they were able to make toylines before. Like a real business, they started production on a toyline first, thanks to banks loaning them money, and then got retailers involved.
I like how quickly you forgot about these post, explaining why banks stopped giving retards money >>11692906 >>11693792

>>11696372
>Also love how you're attackign me instead of proving what I say is wrong
Do you mean like the way you call everyone downies, 4H employees, shills, zoomers, or newfags to try to dismiss what they are saying?
The difference is that you are actually retarded. You admitted you are retarded when you admitted that you are holding a grudge for a decade over a couple of pieces of broken plastic. You are developmentally delayed. Children get over broken toys quicker than you have, and they don't have the money to replace them. You have the emotional regulation capabilities of a toddler. You are retarded.
And I've already proved that everything you say is a half truth that you twist for your agenda.
>Yeah, you don't understand figurative language
I've never once insinuated that you believe your "interest free loan" claim was an actual loan. Or is this strawman some sort of preemptive attempt to defend your lying by saying you were talking figuratively?
>I'm not lying, I'm just being figurative when I said 4H were rejected by the banks.
It does fit your MO.
>No I don't have proof that they were ever rejected by a bank, it's purely conjecture but I expect everyone to believe it. Just like they should believe me when I say that I own more than 3 Mythic Legions figures but I can't take pictures of them because my dog ate them
I know your dog didn't eat them. It was a figure of speech that is used when we know someone is lying but they start making really lame excuses.

>I like how quickly you forgot about these post
Yes, I totally forgot them, which was why I said
>And I've just realized that I've been arguing against your assertion/assumption that they got rejected by the banks, but I don't think they've ever said it
I totally forgot my previous posts, which was why I referenced them in that comment.

That was sarcasm. I am telling you this because you are literally retarded and cannot detect obvious sarcasm.

>>11696528
>if you call me a downy, that means all the words you said explaining how banks and businesses work has to be dismissed
You'e a real genius, but that's expected from someone who NO Us me at every turn, instead of explaining why a Four Horsemen would need to turn to Kickstarter after years of getting loans to make toys without begging their fanbase to give them an interest free loan to make the Mythic Legion line

>That was sarcasm
No shit? I'm just pointing out how you quickly forget your own arguments, since it proved everything i said.
Earlier you were saying how businesses don't require loans, but since you have Downs and started using AI to make your posts for you, you had no idea how explaining why banks no longer gave out loans to retards like 4H was proving everything you were arguing with me about.

Your entire post is just denials, dismissals and insults. No ounce of logic or rational thought behind it, but what can i expect from a retard who gets butthurt if someone criticizes a company they claim they're not involved with?

>>11696561
No, I dismiss everything you say because you are a lying retard with a childlike understanding of the world where the only possible way things can be done is the one you've conjured up in your underdeveloped brain.
>No shit?
Well you tried to twist my last attempt at sarcasm by claiming I proved what you said, and then when I pointed out it was sarcasm you tried to dismiss it with "I was only pretending to be retarded" because you were too embarrassed to admit that you were so fucking autistic that you couldn't detect blatant sarcasm. And you are still trying to say I proved everything you said because all you have are disingenuous tactics to fall back on.
Like I said, no matter how it is explained to you, you will pick out a sentence, and misconstrue it or twist it into a strawman. You are a compulsive liar. There isn't an honest bone in your body.
>Earlier you were saying how businesses don't require loans
I never said that. That was the other anon you were arguing with. I've pointed it out several times when you claim "earlier you said" but you keep trying to attribute other's arguments to me because nothing gets through your thick skull into your childlike brain. You are literally retarded and can't even follow the conversation, and you think you can call everyone else a downy?
>started using AI
I never used AI once, Grammarly boy, but every accusation you make is projection, like crying about being called a retard when all of your posts contain nothing but insults for the first paragraph.
Hell, your reply to my first comment in this thread opened with nothing but insults, then insane ramblings that had nothing to do with what I said, and then you trying to attribute another anon's posts to me. Have you ever considered not acting like a retard? Maybe then the board will drop treating you like a retard that needs to be institutionalized.

>>11696528
The world would be better for customers if more held grudges against companies like he does

>>11696652
I've let the company know about a design that had an issue. They changed it. Not just because of me, but because multiple people did the same thing.
Stomping your feet on 4channel isn't going to improve things for customers.

>>11696630
>more insults, dismissals, and denials without a single ounce of logic to explain why 4H suddenly stopped being able to produce their own toyline without asking their fanbase for an interest free loan
Sure is butthurt Downy who doesn't understand how businesses and banks work.... nor how kickstarter works. Nor how much shipping costs.

>>11696788
>more insults
>Sure is butthurt Downy
I'd say the worst part is the hypocrisy, but it's the lying. The lying is the worst part. Then the strawmanning.
And who says they stopped being able to produce their own toyline without "muh interest free loan" except you?
They could have decided to go though Kickstarter because it was the best way to gauge demand. Maybe they used Kickstarter for exposure since the platform was getting a lot of publicity at that point. Maybe they crunched the numbers and calculated that Kickstarter fees would be less than the interest they would have to pay.
This is all conjectured of course. Only 4H would actually know.
Conjecture just the same as your claim that banks don't trust them blah blah blah. Unless you want to provide proof that they actually were denied a loan because the banks don't trust them.
Because you are absolutely certain that it is the only possibility, so you must have undeniable proof, right? Surely you aren't just making it up because you are eternally seething about a couple of broken weapons and some paint rub.

>>11696833
They're using Kickstarter to promote the fact it's a new TTRPG system, they've already started tooling on everything, especially the full sized Legions figures. But moving into a new market requires getting the attention of a new audience and they're aiming to get the interest of people into TTRPGs who don't also collect figures.

They're also well into the tooling of the current Arkhan figures up for pre-order now. They've already ran a few test prints and are currently doing fine tuning on the molds. They generally do initial production of figures long before they open pre-orders, it's how they were able to have stuff like the Valiant Knight and Qoi in hand for Legionscon despite their actual waves being months from release or drop Otho and Urzokk v2s as in-stock items.

The other guy is just a raging idiot who's dad works for a bank. That's the only way to explain how ANYONE can be dumb enough to actually *defend* interest as something desirable. Anyone with half a braincell is *happy* when a company can raise capital without having to take a high interest loan, as that means said company can reinvest more money into itself, which is how a company becomes successful. But he's been spazzing out about how the "4H NEED LOANZZZZ@!" for a decade now with no proof of anything outside the dingle-berries he pulls from his ass.

>>11689587
The entire Fwoosh site's been down for a while now. I never went back after it crashed a few years back and everyone had to sign up again, but sad to see it completely gone. It was my main toy forum for a couple of years.

>>11697190
I'm aware of everything you've said regarding how Four Horsemen have frequently tooled molds without taking money for preorders to do in-stock drops for figures.
>The other guy is just a raging idiot who's dad works for a bank.
Considering he's claimed that he's a private school faggot, that would make sense.
My first post in the thread was the one pointing out that even major companies use crowdfunding for things they need to gauge the demand of despite having access to credit, and pointing out that even McFarlane's Superpowers shit that he crowdfunded on his own website ended up at retail. All he did was insult me and rant like a mental case about shit that had nothing to do with my post. That's why it's so funny that he's now having a sook about me insulting him. It's ok when his reply is nothing but insults, but when anyone else does it he cries like a bitch.

>>11697474
Funnily enough, their online store is still up and running trying to get rig of the last ninja figures they made.
https://fwooshstore.com/

>>11696833
>NO U!
I actually explain how 4H use to be able to produce toys without asking for interest free loans from their customers before 2014. I used logic and reason, while calling you a downy.
You first tried to say that banks aren't used by businesses, switching your goalpost to saying only big businesses used them, and then moved the goalpost again by explaining how banks were no longer trusting their money to retards after the financial crisis. Since your last point proved everything i was saying about how banks don't trust 4H with their money, you started saying you were only being retarded and just switched to denials, lying, and insults.
You gave up on logic, because you got found out that you needed AI to make your posts for you, because you have no idea what anything you've talked about even means.

>>11697190
>That's the only way to explain how ANYONE can be dumb enough to actually *defend* interest as something desirable
I'm not defending bank loans, retard. I'm just stating facts of how successful businesses are able to make a product without asking their fanbase for interest free loans, hence the Mythic Legions line having super inflated prices (because the fanbase is paying for the stock that will be later sold at stores) and 4H not being able to give retailers proper wholesale prices which is why places like BBTS have to inflate their prices.
Since toy companies like HAsbro, Boss Fight, NECA, Mattel, etc are able to get loans from banks, they're able to produce multiple toys a year and for much cheaper. Whereas 4H asks for money up front before anything is produced and then takes forever to release their product.

Aside 4H's awful QC and customer service, this constant begging for money and taking over a year to produce their toys no doubt led to the Mythic Legion General losing half its poster count by 2020.
Because other companies can get loans, their fanbases actually grew after 2020.

>>11697668
There used to be powercon for motu but it's not motu exclusive anymore or something

>>11697474
I stopped using them after that crash too, it's a shame as it was really the last actual toy forum out there with any kind of traffic. Now all that's left is this place...which is mostly a ghost town, or reddit....which is reddit and thus is just awful. I miss old school forums and I hate how "social media" has so thoroughly taken over and killed them.

>>11697513
Him being some private school nepo baby would also explain why he knows nothing about how actual small businesses work and why any decent small business would choose ANY other method of raising capital over getting a bank loan. Having a few of those myself, loans suck and interest is nothing but a scam.

But yea, most of these companies go to Crowdfunding to A) Advertise and 2-ensure there's enough of a demand for those big ticket items. But the first one is always the most important reason as Crowdfunders become "community events", a period of time that fandoms will spend talking about specific products and brands, which is always the goal.

The 4H have more then enough funds to make new figures, but what they want with the RPG stuff is to expand the audience. Jumping into Kickstarter, which already has access to TTRPG enthusiast is easily one of the best ways to do that.

Also yea, he's a spaz. I don't know how any sane person can drop the line "interest free loans" for ten years and still think it's somehow clever or novel. It's like he's trying to force this meme and has been failing for near a decade in doing so.

>>11698340
There's still some forums out there. Toyark and HissTank still have traffic. Plus, some of the Fwoosh refugees started a new forum that's ok

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>>11698340
>4H totally wanted to delay producing their toys for 4 years and halfassed their releases to raise money, because bank loans aren't supposed to be used by small businesses
lmao
Since you're ignorant: the scarabus figure was delayed, the minifigure was split it was supposed to come with it was split to raise money for the scarabus (because a barely articulated 4" figure was the only thing 4H could actually afford), and then the scarabus was delayed even more. This in turn delayed the birds and mythic legion line, AND killed other planned figures too.

And since 4H requires to its fanbase to give them an interest free loan to produce their toys, ALL the stock that 4H will sell on their store (beyond what the consumers "preordered"), it falls on their fanbase to pay for it. Hence their figures costing 4x more than what collector figures cost at the time.
In other words, the consumer paid for 4 figures to be made for every single figure that they ordered through Kickstarter (~2 is the norm). Since their fans are paying 4x more for what a collector figure costs, they can't really give retailers wholesale prices, hence retailers charging even more than 4H's store. No other toyline does this

So good job at defending assholes like 4H ripping off their customers and not understanding how a business nor bank works.

It's no wonder that 4H felt confident to make an hour long video insulting their fanbase after customers complained that the latest wave of Mythic Legion figures had the worst QC issues for any toy line ever. And this is why the Mythic Legion General is dead.

Nevermind you already agreed with me that banks rejected 4H because they deemed their business to be untrustworthy.