okay

>>732239507
Thank you for reading

>>732239401
I agree with this assessment

>>732239401
That's why I always mod games so that axes become "dull" items rather than break and disappear.
Zomboid was a perfect example of this bullshit.

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My earliest encounter with durability and it was so fucking stupid that I ended up dropping the game.
I'm sure it's great otherwise. Too bad it gimps itself so hard.

i don't think you've swung an axe into a human body 500 times op

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>swing it 500 times and it becomes completely unusable
I never upgraded my accuracy stat

the handle of my mallet wore out in way under 500 strikes. it had been sitting in a shed for decades, but then so have your typical vidya tool/weapon

>>732239401
Yeah but those 500 swings are cutting down 100 fully grown trees. That sounds like a reasonable amount of work to require some maintenance.

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Reminder that if you got upset at this axe, you failed the litmus test and are retarded

>>732242340
>calling others retards
Please explain what that curve on the handle is for, there is 1 (one) correct answer.

>>732239401
>swing it 500 times
you're lucky if that's many in vidya. most of the time they break after 20 swings.

>>732242340
It seems like it would want to twist in your hands more than a regular handle and it's weird to have the grippy stuff where only one hand would be but whatever.

>>732239401
thats why its good in fortnite

>>732239401
Crafting a hatchet from the ground up also requires months of work irl, yet only takes a minute in survival games. Games aren't realistic.

>>732239401
>>732242303
IRL you would be honing the thing anyways at the end of the day.
Also the way the head sits on the handle is a big deal and the product of some decent engineering.
They used to loosen and fly off a lot more easily than they do now.
The wedge system is about 180 years old, and before that it was a big issue for thousands of years.

>>732242820
There's no fucking way putting a wedge in an axe head is less than 200 years old, are you talking about something more specific?
I can find references to viking era finds with wedged eyed axe heads

>>732239401
Who cares about how realistic it is? It's a video game, the point is that you have a limited tool that you either have to get more resources for or find a new one (you have to manage it properly and then take a risk afterwords). Retard

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>>732244417
I misremembered the whole thing.
Its this combination of the way the eye of the axe is shaped and the wedges used.
You need a tapered eye (narrow at the bottom) so the handle with the wedge in it will resist being moved better, the wedge itself, and then a second smaller wedge made of metal you put across both the main wedge and the handle to expand the wood further.

We started using it in about 1840 for claw hammers and it spread everywhere else that had toolheads mounted on wood.

>>732244597
>Who cares about how realistic it is?
Me. There's no other reason for the mechanic to exist.
>the point is that you have a limited tool that you either have to get more resources for or find a new one (you have to manage it properly and then take a risk afterwords).
Unless resources are actually limited, resource management is just grocery shopping.

>>732239401
Mechanics don't have to be perfectly realistic. The only reason you can't enjoy it is due to your irrational refusal to suspend your disbelief

>>732246815
I can suspend my disbelief just fine for good mechanics.

>>732246431
autists don't deserve input on game design. It's why train companies don't hire train fags

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>>732239401
Then just play the games that have it, the way you want.

>>732239401
>500 times
Try the new Zomboid patch, you'll be lucky to get two trees out of a brand new, off the shelf hatchet

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>obtain Flaming Greatsword of Asskicking++
>too afraid to use it because if i slap an enemy with it 100 times it'll fucking shatter and vanish into the aether
Why would anybody think this is a good mechanic?

>>732239401
Monster Hunter has the right idea
>Blade dull
>Whetstone, 10 seconds, ready to go!
Of course, this does lead to some weird bits like
>Hammer dull
>Sharpen it...somehow.

>>732247129
Oh so you selectively disbelieve only for things you already know you don't like for gameplay reasons. Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

>>732239401
What happens when you sharpen all the metal of the axe? Then it would break. Sharpening metal tools is like sharpening pencils. Except it would take a much longer time to sharpen an axe into uselessness.

>>732247390
No? Unrealistic but fun is good, unrealistic and annoying is bad.

>>732239401
okay and it also doesn't take days to travel by foot in a video game

>>732242213
pretty sure flesh and bone are softer than tree trunks

>>732247919
It'd be boring if it did.

>>732248085
human bone is almost exactly the same density as white pine

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>repairing items damages their max durability

>>732246815
>>732247129
>>732247390
>>732247541
there are some mods to fix most of anything you have issues with.

>>732242143
The durability system in Dark Cloud 1 was fine for the most part, the main issue was the fact that certain enemies arbitrarily tanked your WHP for every single swing. DC2 fixed basically every single issue 1 had.

>>732248606
It shouldn't be a problem to begin with, thoughever

>>732242420
Its a hewing axe for squaring off logs and split lumber. I'm not sure what it's doing on a spaceship, instead of a sailing ship

>>732248795
Fuck off, dumb nigger.
Games should not read your mind to be perfect for YOUR retarded ass.
They should aim for a set of people, and have the flexibility for people to customize things to their liking.
Factorio not only aims for automation autists, it provides a massive amount of control over your experience by default AND allows for people to mod the hell out of the game to their liking.

Picky people who are also too lazy to even customize things like you are a plague upon this good earth.

>>732249073
>They should aim for a set of people, and have the flexibility for people to customize things to their liking.
Who are durability mechanics aiming for?

>>732239401
I'd rather have higher and harder crafting requirements than durability.
It matches life better too that way but it's more of a struggle, hence it will turn away more casuals.
Win win, but not for corporations.
Other than that, just turn it off in most cases, *or* make it so only lower grade weapons and armor suffer from durability limitations.
That works even better, maybe...

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>>732239401
>Breath of the Wild

>>732249129
Maintenance cycles.
The feel of your stuff wearing out so you will choose what you use based on where something falls on
>how effective it is to use
versus
>how easy is it to keep this thing in use

if you are competent you can plan things around that as well by controlling how easy it is to get whats needed to maintain certain things and where to get them at.
You can make something become a luxury item or a rare "save my ass" item based on how limited or expensive it is to use, and have other items be your "daily workhorse" to get through normal experiences.

It allows for more variety in gear, lets "lower tier" items maintain a longer cycle of usefulness, gives players another way to measure how far they have come, and influences the way they play.

In vintage story via mods you can take this durability further.
You can split the durability between tool head, handle, and binding, give the option of better bindings and handles and treatments for them and the blade to give it more maintenance to increase the performance.

Since vintage story can have a dedicated smith role, this gives the smith player more to do while making them an even more valuable contributor that can enhance your performance further.

Dull creature, try to realize that there is more to this world than simplicity, and that you are far, far from its center.

>>732249486
>retard

>>732249580
>ass blown so wide open all he has left are insults.
I am very intelligent and impressive, I know.
No need to prove to me further.
My most humble thanks for your compliments.

>>732247390
>you don't complain about realism of the cool thing but do about the annoying thing? hippocrates much???
i pray this is bait

>he conceded instantly
Well that was disappointing.

>>732246027
thank you tool head mounting expert, I didn't ever think about this before and it's quite clever

>>732249486
>there is more to this world than simplicity
This is not a good argument when the key is often just whether the system is fun. Complexity is orthogonal to enjoyment, and by itself accomplishes nothing without sufficiently robust interactions with other systems. Increasing the amount of equipment slots or character abilities is an increase of complexity, but that may be plain bloat.

>>732249994
That's why you need some one skilled making it and making sure its inline with what you want the game to be and the audience you want it for.
Not that complicated.

>Axe becomes useless quickly
Don't devs know this isn't how it works irl?
>Buildings now require thousands of man-hours of work to complete
Um this is a videogame, we need to abstract some elements to keep things fun.

>>732249897
nah, 2/3 of the innovations were ancient stuff already.
someone just had the idea of putting a second wedge in to hold the first from working its way loose lmao.
apparently that metal one is often serrated as well to help it stick in.

>the axe of woodcutting breaks after a few trees
>you have infinite bombs that cut trees down anyways
botw is so stupid with durability

>>732250093
>just make it good lmao
>not that complicated
Incredible discussion of the topic there, anonymous, you really got to the heart of the matter with that one.

>>732250332
I said to make it balanced and in line with everything else the game is going to be.
I didn't realize that was going to be a struggle for you to parse.

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>>732239401
>guns require ammo in a gun-focused game
>no one bats an eye
>melee weapons require durability in a melee-focused game
>everyone loses their shit
Please make it make sense.

>>732250904
Isn't not requiring ammo the main upside of melee over guns?

>>732250976
depends on the game balance.
not everything is gonna be like Left4Dead 2.

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>>732239401
>The only game I can think of that even made it any fun was

>crowbar breaks after hitting a rotten corpse a couple dozen times
Devs who do this have never touched a crowbar.

>>732250584
Yeah that's ideaguy-tier non-statement. It sure would be nice if every system in every game would be "balanced" and "in line with" others, who the fuck would say otherwise? Simple mechanics can have the very same virtues, and you have to consider theme and flavor as well.
Now, I'm not saying you should have some set of concrete design maxims to show off before /v/irgins. I am just not impressed with the observation.

>>732250976
If a game has melee weapons only then that's irrelevant.

>>732251432
If you can't even get different departments to communicate you aren't gonna have a successful game.
I don't know why you are insisting on making out BASELINE requirements to be something difficult.
Were you one of the 1/3 of useless developers that got fired for being deadwood DEI or something?

>>732251290
>every weapon you looted was damaged to some degree, but you could repair weapons using other similar weapons and improve their damage and value-to-weight ratio
Only example that actually did anything interesting with it more like

>>732250904
>arbitrary systems regarding dropoff and recoil and overheating and reloading in gun-focused games
wow it's almost like muh realism is the most braindead gotcha for videogames

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>>732242213
...I don't even think OP was alluding to using it as a weapon against people.

>>732242260
That is a maul not an axe

>>732251702
What the fuck are you even trying to say? Realism is exactly what I'm arguing against. Ammo and durability are pretty much analogous gameplay-wise, and yet people treat them differently because one is "realistic" and the other one isn't.

>>732251612
Anon, I am not refuting what (you) said. I am saying it's an abstract value judgement that can't be formalized. For all intents and purposes exactly the same as MAKE IT GOOD LMAO. Nobody sets out with the intent to make an unbalanced mess with a team where left hand doesn't know what right hand is doing.

How about if i smack a guy with a sword it just never breaks, how about that? People only talk up realism in a game when it's shit that makes it less fun.

>>732251964
your post highlighted two mechanics that are both reasonable irl, and the opposite reactions they garner from gamers, so it seems you want to pull a fast one over one side
you say they are
>pretty much analogous gameplay-wise
but that is just untrue, excluding some autistic sims (and i don't know how they design shit there) maybe
ammo is material cost, often easy to obtain, encouraging the player to switch weapons without invalidating the rare and the powerful
durability often renders tools not merely inoperable but completely destroys them, encouraging the player to hoard the best ones like ethers for the final boss
there is often a big discrepancy between what is temporarily unavailable versus completely expendable, and one is way worse than others psychology-wise

>>732242143
I used the default slingshot and broke it and slowly chipped everything down 1hp at a time until I got Steve in the second dungeon somewhere.

for durability to make sense, it needs to be a scarce resource. else it only resolves to busywork. obviously, forcing players to economize their weapon uses does not well suit an action game. but there are games where durability can work fine to differentiate weapons and strategies - stealth, rogulikes, tactical games. genres where thinking about resource allocation is expected and required.

>>732252423
>durability often renders tools not merely inoperable but completely destroys them
>>>>>often
And you're accusing ME of "pulling a fast one"? I see what that "often" is doing in your argument. No, Breath of the Wild is an extreme example and losing your durability in most games does not, in fact, destroy your weapon. That is unless the game is trying to be "realistic". It may be true in more simulative survival games, but in most melee weapon-focused RPGs with durability mechanics, this is simply not the case. There are absolutely games where durability is analogous with ammo, games where you can carry weapon restoration items and fix your weapons on the fly the same way you would reload ammo. But apparently that doesn't matter because this thread is about "durability bad" regardless of context and this comparison doesn't serve your argument.

>>732252823
fair enough, but the most important part is the difference in perception between out-of-ammo gun and broken-piece-of-junk sword, and latter not being expended does mitigate that
in terms of purely abstract mechanics, you certainly can make melee weapons behave exactly like guns, but nobody will actually design it that way verisimilitude is a fancy word to explain why, it's like realism but better
mid-battle weapon restoration is a meme, it's all about doing it during downtime / at blacksmith; making weapons numerically worse but not inoperable feels bad; it's a cursed problem of player perception just as "i can't use it now i might need it later"
if you do insist on durability as cornerstone of some possible design, you probably need to sell the fantasy of being a walking arsenal, where every weapon is expendable something like weapon-focused sifu if it takes a life, but then the question becomes what's even the purpose of durability and inventory in an action game

>>732251968
>Nobody sets out with the intent to make an unbalanced mess with a team where left hand doesn't know what right hand is doing.
nobody should even let it GET to that point.
you are all in the PRODUCTION department, wtf do you mean?

>>732239401
If it were shart of the wild it would take 5 hits to break it

>>732253956
In that case I agree with most of your points, but the bad things you pointed out aren't really inherent to durability as a mechanic. I'd say durability definitely benefits from being abstracted to some extent and making it more realistic only leads to problems.
>what's even the purpose of durability and inventory in an action game
Same as ammo, it forces the player to swap their weapons and improvise more. It obviously depends on whether the design warrants such a thing, but generally I would say it's a far better fit for an action game than an RPG where the player character is restricted to a few specific weapon types.

>>732250904
You can pick up more ammo. You can't pick up more durability.

>>732242340
You are a retard for watching kike propaganda.

>>732247348
>play Generations
>make Glavenus armor
>can now sharpen YOUR GUN
They knew exactly what they were doing with how absurd this looked

>>732242673
>Valhiem and vintage story exist
>Axe or pick takes 200 steps to make
>Breaks in minutes

If you release a fully pulled bowstring without any arrow on it, that bow is considered defective and unfit to use, that is if you didn't outright break it when it happens

>meanwhile blasting 20000 bullet per match through a HMG barrel and overheating it 10 times in the process is fine in 99% of shooters

>>732247263
>Zelda botw
>Weapons's break in 100 attack
>Once you get the good shit, you avoid ennemies since there is no reason to fight them, if you do this will only force you to farm the good shit
>Exploration become useless since it's only give you money (useless), weapons (useless since you have the good shit) or armors (most of it is useless)
And so, you just have a big useless map full of useless shit

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>15000+ rounds barrel life
>explodes after 500 rounds

>>732258861
i explore because i want to find cool shit and do puzzles i don't care about finding

Copper Sword of Truth #114
+10.3% damage to bokoblin
20.1% chance to bleed
+100% to anal damage

that would just get thrown into a weapon locker or sold for rupees

>>732239401
A combat axe is different from a woodchopping axe.

>>732259240
You picked the gun up at 14500.

>>732242143
In this example it sort of makes sense to balance the fact that your weapons have stat growth rather than the playable characters.
Generally though durability mechanics are poorly thought out busywork or something to lazily fix "balance".

>>732259240
>>732261615
I remember finding a shiny assault rifle with all sorts of high tech attachments on the floor on my america vacation and I thought "sweet, free gun!", but when I test shot the gun to see if it is actually working, the entire thing burst into a million pieces.
Must have been left with exactly 1 durability left. So no free gun in the end.

>>732239401
how do I sharpen axe

>>732239401

Weapon duration is one of the stupidest things added to gaming.

>>732261785
I mean the dumb thing is that most of these mechanics are probably only in games because minecraft did it, and it's fucking retarded in minecraft 2.
It was only marginally acceptable when there was the fixed world size.

>>732239401
Splitting wood is not the same as felling a tree with it you fucking asshole

>>732239401
the only way durability is done right is when you get a minor debuff from not maintaining your shit, which is accurate. then maintenance is exceedingly cheap and fast, you do it, back to 100%. but no, we have to make shit break and be totally unusable or straight up remove it from your inventory.

>>732239401
>axe in a survival video game
>no sharpener provided
bruh

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>>732262140
The only way durability is done right is when I can break your shit and ruin your fun

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>>732239401
Melee weapons are one thing, but I actually have no fucking idea why a durability system exists with modern day guns in some games. I don't mean like a Fallout situation where you're just sticking shit together and patchworking some old ass firearm. I mean like a fucking current-use MP5 just falling apart for no reason after a couple gunfights. Unless the gun was literally fucking fried in electricity and hot lava, I don't understand why it would just start breaking apart on such an extreme level that its usability would be so heavily impacted.

There's a point where it's blatant chore-like gameplay rather than a fun and immersive part of the experience. In fact, it harms the immersion because it's so stupid. God, Stalker 2 was dog shit.

>sword breaks
>have to get same/craft same sword
>or you go back and repair it
Shit's just busywork and nothing more. What's next, filing taxes on the junk i sold?

>>732239401
>The only game I can think of that even made it any fun was Fallout 3
Yeah, I sure loved finding super rare weapons like the katana and having it break after three hits.

The most durability games should have it the weapon maybe needing sharpening for max damage.

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>>732239401
>Best game in the franchise retroactively makes fun of future slop

>>732250904
It's almost like guns need bullets to shoot, fucking dingus.

>play -tide game
>"Hand Axe" or some kind of variant
Baby, we're coming home.
>they all suck
GOD DMANIT

>>732261785
Don't mind it on its own, at the end of the day its just another form of limiting an ingame resource instead of letting it be infinitely used

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If Look Outside did away with durability it'd be a 9/10, with it it's an 8. Especially since they can break in the middle of combat. Having Hellen's cleaver break and having to resort to her bare fists for the rest of the fight was some of the worst the game had to offer (next to the disc puzzles, fuck that shit)