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After being told it's greatest game over and over again I finally decided to give it a shot. To my surprise not only it wasn't any good, it was downright bad
>No options to roleplay. All quests are linear and all "choices" are entirely superficial. (For example trying to help cowled wizards and killing devs snowflake NPC results in instant fail and that's the ONLY choice I had after 3 hours of playing)
>Game assumes that I care about their NPCs and focuses it's story around them rather than player character. Attempts to kill or dismiss imoen results in GM telling you NO YOU CANT DO THAT! THAT WOULD INTERRUPT MY PLANNED CUTSCENE. This makes the story fall flat for me because I have no reason to care for her since I've known her for two seconds (I don't care what's the lore if the game itself didn't make the effort to develop connection and just wrote "she's ur sister you must love" in her backstory. I also didn't like the fact that villain is being presented as le heckin hyper smart chessmaster who's playing everyone like a fiddle considering that he's actually pretty dumb but the game forces you to fail to advance the plot.
>90% of the game is dungeon crawler combatslop which grows pretty stale really quickly
I might be biased since I played Troika games before playing bg2 and the differences are night and day. It's like hopping on Fallout 4 after playing new vegas. It's very sad that Bioware's design philosophy prevailed over Troikas because it's much easier to produce combatslop than design engaging quests and story that allows you to roleplay and affect the world in a meaningful way.
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>>3896448
>90% of the game is dungeon crawler
Are you telling me Dungeons and Dragons is all about dungeons? Let me guess, it has dragons too? WTF I wanted a visual novel with dialogue branches why am I playing a video game instead?
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I've seen this argument many times, and I'm convinced it comes from a tranny. There are many things BG2 does wrong, but motivating you to care about the main quest is done better than probably any game I've ever played.
You were imprisoned and tortured by the most annoying git in the world, and when you got out and were ready to tear him a new one, not only did he escape, but he kidnapped your sister to boot. Anyone with a shred of testosterone in them would not rest until they're stomping on Irenicus' face. All these people who say, "Well, maybe he got more utility out of torturing me than I lost from being tortured. I'd rather go and explore the world", cannot have working genitals.
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>>3896481
DnD had a DM who responded to your actions and you were roleplaying with other party members. When DM inserts his snowflake NPCs and ignores your input and when you do something that goes against his plans he doesn't improvise but forcefully puts you back on track he's called a bad DM. Bioware is a bad DM and you're character is reduced to a spectator in their preplanned story.
>>3896520
>Being against baldurs tranny means you're a tranny
Ok.
>Anyone with a shred of testosterone in them would not rest until they're stomping on Irenicus' face
But what's the point if you're not actually allowed to do that until the end of the game? It's both frustrating and disempowering. When I'm clearly not allowed to do something no matter my input I get insentive to just opt out instead of participating in this humiliating ritual. In fallout 1 you could go straight to a big bad and kill him without him escaping 300 times and your party getting defeated in a preplanned cutscene.
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I liked it, which means your taste is shit.
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>>3896773
I don't mind straightforward stories if they're presented as such. What makes it different and what made me annoyed is that it's been marketed as a roleplaying game with many choices, same thing happened with BG3 and their 17 000 endings. I believe there are better ways to make RPGs and the adoption of bioware doctrine had a disastrous effect on the evolution of RPG genre
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>>3896922
>BG1 is better because for most of the game you're free to explore and do whatever you like.
Plus the way the main story is paced, how the two plots intertwin and how the main villiain is written are far superior.
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>>3897145
Well yeah, that was either retarded or tongue in cheek. However:
>Sarevok
A misterious and menacing figure of whom you knownothing about. Throughout the story you unravel that he's got an interest in you for reasons unknown and that he's behind a huge and clever conspiracy. Finally all pieces of the puzzle come together in the final chapters.
>Irenicus
A large ham who everyone is terrifyed of with lots of informed virtue. Gets taken prisioner but it was part of the plan, trust me bro. Has several chances of finishing you off but doesn't for some reason. Convoluted plan that's a mere excuse so the devs can railroad you into cool locations. Sets himself to failure.
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>>3896448
BG1 is more open-ended about who you are and what you can do, and there is significantly less focus on party member stories since they were all treated as throwaway companions, like from actual D&D.
BG2 is almost an entirely different game, desu, because the ending story from BG1 is now amped up and the PC is much more important. The NPC's have much deeper stories, some as a consequence of having been with the PC so long, so they should be more than a body and stat sheet and have some actual character now.
If you're playing BG2 first, you're just doing it wrong and you should have known better from the simple fact that its a sequel to another game. Crying about not knowing the personal relationships between characters is on you, not the game.
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>>3897410
>The NPC's have much deeper stories, some as a consequence of having been with the PC so long
only thing is that it's true if the player had spent time with those companions in BG1 which naturally is going to be true only for a subset of players.
>You actually should now care for Jaheira and Khalid, and Imoen and that retard Minsc
nah fuck that
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>>3897446
>going to be true only for a subset of players.
By the time BG2 rollet out the first novel of the game was already released. Developers had in mind players who had already completed BG1. Back in those days people used to play all games in a series and not jump in on the second.
Basically, the "cannon party" was established on the lore and devs rolled with it.
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>>3897446
You don't have to care about them, and I never personally liked that they shoehorned those characters in as the canon party members, but you still need to respect their relationships with the other characters and understand their motivations, and why they might potentially care about Imoen, who is treated like the PC's kid sister in the first game.
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>>3897599
>I never personally liked that they shoehorned those characters in as the canon party members
Yeah, but the thing is that the cannon party members can be recruited relatively early in the game, plus tgey're at specific locations tgat the story drives you to.
Personally I like other companions better, but some of then can only be recruited fairly late in the game or, if you plan on continuing to bg2, have way less relevance storywise.
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>>3897626
They should have just changed the opening dungeon to be "easier" for a solo/duo (with Yoshimo), maybe add one or two other temporaries that get killed off. Then you could have all the characters from BG1 appear at various places in BG2, like they mostly already do if kicked out of the party.
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>>3897643
They did dirty many of the characters from BG1. They didn't need to give such a bad ending to some of tgem just for a cameo.
>>3898928
Myself included for my first playtroughs, but my point still stands, a new player will find some companions too late in the game to bother rearranging the party. Plus I'd bet the vast mayority of players play a good guy in the first playthough.
Not saying establishing a canon party was a good idea, nevertheless.
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>>3899092
>Myself included for my first playtroughs, but my point still stands, a new player will find some companions too late in the game to bother rearranging the party.
That's a pretty strong statement considering you yourself did in fact rearrange companions
I don't think I know a single person who had Khalid in the party for example
>Plus I'd bet the vast mayority of players play a good guy in the first playthough.
there are 25 bg1 companions, only 8 of those are technically evil
but most of those are ok in a neutral/good aligned parties unless you choose to also have that retarded paladin
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>>3899234
>That's a pretty strong statement considering you yourself did in fact rearrange companions
I used to take Kivan and in later playthoughs Yesslick and Coran.
But Khalid and Jaheira knew about Gorion and give you your first quest of the main story so it's normal to roll with them.
>I don't think I know a single person who had Khalid in the party for example
I got tired of Jaheira before I got tired of Khalid
I usually play good characters on BG since the evil options not only give less rewards but also it's the equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot. Not many rpgs have decent options for evil playthroughs.
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>>3896448
You're speaking to a bunch of oldfarts who need to cling to their youth being GOAT or their whole barely-managed life crashes and burns. They'll never admit their shallow and crungy RTwPslop plot-on-rails gayme wasn't even that popular when it came out.
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It's kind of funny how much better the npc companions lives would be if they never got involved with PC in BG1, since they forced a canon party for BG2. Jaheira wold be bossing around Khalid and doing her harper thing, Dynaheir would do whatever she does with her big dumb bodyguard following her around from town to town. Imoen wouldn't have been fingered and mindfucked, and could live out a dull life in Candlekeep, probably getting her shit together and some point and settling down to some minor job for library or something, maybe a wench at the inn.
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Tbh a bunch of the joinable NPCs had it coming regardless.
>Xzar and Montaron
Working for the Zentharim they would eventually mess up and get killed for their troubles or run into the harpers and get the same fate
>Edwin
Overlty ambitious red wizards never end well anyway
>Coran
He would have gotten himself killed either by wyverns or by that mage he cucked
>Safana
Not good enough to survive her own schemes. Wouldn't have died of old age.
>Tiax
No need to ellaborate
>Ajantis
Accidentally killed
>Faldorn
Had it coming
Others were better after meeting the bhaalspawn:
>Garrick
Silke would have eventually killed him.
>Yeslick
Owes his freedom and his life to the MC
>Kivan
Avenged his lover by joining the party
>Branwen
Who knows how long she would have stood petrified?
>Viconia
She'd be dead twice
>Quayle
Got saved by the MC
>Eldoth
Would have never managed to follow trough with his plan
>Xan
Dead had the MC not saved him
And others are somewhere in the middle
>Jaheira
Traded a gimpy husband who she bossed around from a literal son of a god. Shame about Khalid, he didn't have it coming.
>Minsc
Wouldn't have been able to save Dynaheir. Would be directionles and probably get himself killed if on his own. Dynaheir got saved but then got killed, so it evens out.
>Alora
She would have been caught eventually
>Shar-Teel
Got to solve her daddy issues by killing her own father, so perhaps a win
>Skie
Traded a boring yet comfy life for adventure, but she was unprepared for it
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>>3896448
Murderhobo is not roleplaying. Try actually playing the game instead of sperging out immediately and killing NPC's and then acting surprised that the game falls apart. I know zoomers have a horrible attention span, but Jesus Christ dude.
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>>3899564
>Murderhobo is not roleplaying
I agree which is why I think BG2 is not an RPG. Every quest doesn't have anything besides killing. No choices, no alignment, nothing. The quest that made me give up on BG2 completely was that mage spellhold quest that gets failed after you do what you're told and help cowled mages because game designated them as bad guys who can't be interacted in any way that doesn't include killing. It's just an endless dungeon where you can't do anything besides murderohoboing
Compare that to Arcanum where I could play and enjoy the whole game without KILLING ANYONE and still have fun because 90% of quests can be resolved in multitude of ways that complement the character you're roleplaying as (talking/sneaking/fighting) and takes into account your class, race and skills.
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>>3899562
Bhaalspawn Imoen would have eventually been hunted down like all the others.
But I agree with you, she clearly was never meant to be one. She was supposed to be younger than Charname. Everything points to that, including how Gorion basically ignored her.
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>>3899234
>I don't think I know a single person who had Khalid in the party for example
Khalid was a pretty decent option for a good-aligned fighter. A lot of guides mentioned buffing him with specific items and keeping him around.
I didn't, but mainly because Jaheira was meh, and I was playing a RAN/CLE (which benefitted from the OG bugged spell progression), so I didn't need a second druid.
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>>3900181
>A lot of guides mentioned buffing him with specific items and keeping him around.
Can be the second best archer in the game with the missile bracers. Can be a solid frontliner with the gauntlets of ogre power.
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Is there any other game with the mage rock paper scissor buff and dispel shit that bg2 has? It's honestly my favorite part of the game and the pathfinder games have everything but that, magic feels pretty weak in those in comparison.
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>>3902052
but they still rate it #7 of best rpgs of all time despite site being filled with deranged fallout sycophants
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>>3896448
This reads less like a critique of BG2 and more like admitting you didn’t engage with the game on its own terms.
Saying BG2 has “no roleplay” is just false. Roleplay isn’t delivered through constant quest branching, it’s expressed through alignment, reputation, faction reactions, class strongholds, companion arcs, and long-term consequences. If your definition of roleplay is “every NPC must let me do whatever I want,” then yes, BG2 won’t indulge that.
The Cowled Wizards example doesn’t prove superficiality, it proves the game allows failure and morally bad outcomes without hand-holding you with bespoke cutscenes. Not every bad choice exists to be rewarded.
Complaining that you can’t instantly kill or dismiss Imoen misses the point entirely. BG2 is a character-driven RPG with narrative continuity from BG1, not a sandbox murder simulator. Skipping that context and then blaming the game is on the player, not the design.
Calling Irenicus “dumb” while missing that the plot is about being outmatched by structural power, not a cartoon chessmaster, is a shallow read. The game doesn’t “force you to fail” so much as it refuses to pretend you’re the center of the universe from minute one.
Finally, “90% dungeon crawler combatslop” is what you get if you ignore companion quests, strongholds, banters, and side arcs. That’s not a flaw in the game, it’s a refusal to engage with it.
Disliking BG2 is fine. Claiming it lacks roleplay just signals unfamiliarity with what it actually offers.
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>>3902472
this kills OP
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>>3902371
so this is a list of only western crpgs, right? I'm not a weeb but suggesting that not a single Final Fantasy game makes the top 50 list when there's low-quality franchise rip-off slop like Wizards and Warriors on there is just funny
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>>3902472
>it’s expressed through alignment, reputation, faction reactions, class strongholds, companion arcs, and long-term consequences
There was nothing of that offered in the first 2-4 hours I played. What you mention is too insubstantial for me to be engaged, especially when compared to much better crafted RPG's like Arcanum. I'm not saying that it's not there or that I don't know about it, I say that it's not enough to make any meaningful difference.
>If your definition of roleplay is “every NPC must let me do whatever I want,” then yes, BG2 won’t indulge that.
That's a strawman. RPG should have some options to roleplay beyond combatslop. BG clearly failed in that regard.
>BG2 is a character-driven RPG
That's a really funny word. Let's pretend you're playing irl DND session and GM focuses all his attention on his donutsteel NPC's and you can't participate or roleplay in any way that goes against his wishes and your role is reduced to being a spectator in his show. That's the feeling I get from playing "character-driven RPG's" which is not really RPG at all. A good DM should craft it's world and story with the intention of maximising role-playing potential, not reducing it. "character-driven RPG's" don't even try since they care more about their npc's than the player.
>The Cowled Wizards example doesn’t prove superficiality, it proves the game allows failure and morally bad outcomes
Except the "Lol u immediately fail" is not a valid choice, it's a lack thereof. Trying to paint it as le hecking smart design choice is just dishonest and retarded and everyone can see it. Compare it to an actual evil choice from Fallout 2 where you can become a slaver. You get punished a lot but it feels meaningful from RP perspective because you get a lot of unique dialogues and encounters.
But in BG2 there's no actual way of helping cowled wizards since they don't even have a reputation and my quest outcome wasn't acknowledged in any way
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>>3902472
>Calling Irenicus “dumb”
Yea he is dumb because there's no actual way he could have predicted that he could escape or that wizards couldn't just kill him since they're supposed to be a very powerful organization so getting captured was just a really stupid plan that has a really small chance of working.
But instead of doing anything mages are just standing there saying "HURR DURR HE'S SO COOL AND POWERFUL I WONDER IF THOSE HANDCUFFS WORK" before he breaks and kills them. Really brilliant writing.
>The game doesn’t “force you to fail” so much as it refuses to pretend you’re the center of the universe from minute one.
Yea I got that. Player character is not the center of the game, Bioware's donutsteel NPC's are because it's a "character-driven RPG" where player can't drive the plot or make meaningful difference
>Finally, “90% dungeon crawler combatslop” is what you get if you ignore companion quests, strongholds, banters, and side arcs
Most of it is centered around combatslop and isn't related to roleplaying. Le heckin banter can't make me look away from structural flaws this game has, it's just fluff text.
>Disliking BG2 is fine. Claiming it lacks roleplay just signals unfamiliarity with what it actually offers.
I played it for 4 hours I think I know what it offers. Even if it somehow gets good after 5 hours which I don't believe it still is a flaw on games behalf since it doesn't respect my time
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>>3902697
>attempt to divert the argument away from the game in question by attacking a different one
It’s always this.
>lol you think X is bad? Name I, J, K that are better
>lol you think I, J, K are good? What a retard, I, J, K are terrible
Super clumsy and transparent.
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>>3902725
>unhinged attention whore spams low effort outrage bait threads about bg2 for weeks
>why dont you give me attention, im mentally I need you)'s!!
Everyone who makes garbage thread like this should be ignored and given no replays unless they give examples of games which are better just to keep discussion somewhat honest. This is last reply you get from me nigger.
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>>3902609
>wall of text
>>3902600
>wall of text....
>I played it for 4 hours I think I know what it offers.
Why would you type so much nonsense and then admit you barely even touched the game?
>Even if it somehow gets good after 5 hours which I don't believe it still is a flaw on games behalf since it doesn't respect my time
the issue isn't "when it gets good", the issue is you have no basis to offer insightful critiques of a game of its scope and size. Everyone knows its good, it's time tested and universally well received. But it isn't flawless, it has flaws, but you weren't able to highlight any of its actual flaws because you are clueless about how it works and plays
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>>3902995
>>3903002
>hurr durr you haven't wasted 40 hours on a shitty game that you don't enjoy therefore you can't critique it
What a nice and thoughtful counter-argument
>Everyone knows its good, it's time tested and universally well received
Fallout 4 is also universally well received, your point? Most people are completely retarded and like to eat shit. That's not an argument. I provided a critique that you weren't been able to counter in any manner.
>>wall of text
Another excellent counter-argument. No wonder you like "character-driven RPG's" like bg2 and larianslop. You're the reason we can't have nice RPG's anymore
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>3903030
>90% of the game is dungeon crawler combatslop which grows pretty stale really quickly
>>3902600
>There was nothing of that offered in the first 2-4 hours I played.
you got filtered by BG2 on normal difficulty, in a couple of hours lmao
Bascially OP is like the journo who got filtered by Cuphead tutorial now he's here to cope & seethe
you love to see it
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>>3903063
>You have to play 40 hours of shitty game to know it's shit
>You can't talk about what you experienced while playing and why you had to quit... BECAUSE YOU JUST CAN'T OKAY YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING REEEEEEE
Insane strat
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>>3903055
>assuming that identifying something is the same as experiencing something.
Ok, let's talk reality. What is the most basic form of identifying a phenomena?
>To use your example, it doesn't take four hours to know that you're playing BG2.
>>3903021 anon's point was not that the game was not BG2, it was that it didn't offer him what he wanted. It is is a bad position, but countering it by saying he should force himself to engage with what he hates is retarded. It's how Age of Decadence fags argue when you say to them that their game is shit and they direct you to play a visual novel with merchant start (or a secret ending loremaster if they're feeling extra sadistic) for the true AoD experience, and it's fucking sad to watch.
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>>3903070
>Ok, let's talk reality. What is the most basic form of identifying a phenomena?
No, let's keep talking about your retarded allegory. No, you don't need to taste shit to know that it's shit. But if you wanted to give me a detailed critique on the taste of shit, how could you know what it tastes like without tasting it youself? You could look at it and smell it, and infer that it probably tastes horrible, but that's speculation. There are foods that look and smell horrible but taste delicious. Hence, your allegory is retarded.
>anon's point was not that the game was not BG2
Correct, which is why your allegory doesn't work.
>It is is a bad position, but countering it by saying he should force himself to engage with what he hates is retarded.
Nobody's saying that. What people are saying is that offering a "critique" of a 60-hour plus game when you admit you've only played four hours of it is retarded because you haven't experienced the game. What OP is offering is a 'critique' of HIS experience of it, the four hours that he's played. "I don't like it" is shit opinion, but he's entitled to it. "Game is bad for reasons I have no understanding of because I barely made it out of the tutorial" is a patently laughable statement.
>It's how Age of Decadence fags
I don't care about your irrelevant seething about a game that's unrelated to our discussion.
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>>3903084
>>3903147
This only works if you admit that the first 4 hours are complete dogshit but it gets good after 20 hours or something. If you don't do that then your seething is meaningless and can be disregarded as impotent whining of someone who can't say anything meaningful. I'm not going to give any leeway to lying faggots, I'm done with bioware and larianslop. You're the same retards who baited me into playing DOS2 because I believed it will be get good at some point which it never did. You're retards who aren't interested in having a discussion and are too intellectually incapable to defend your slop which you salivate over because you played it when you we're kids or something
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>>3903274
BG2's fitst dungeoun, AKA Irenicus' castle, is regarded as kinda meh by a lot of players, including BG2 enthusiasts. It is meant to familiarize new players and those coming from BG1 with the mechanics and such. Kind of an expanded tutorial.
Afterwards you're thrown into Waukeen's Promenade and once you get to the Copper Coronet you get sidequests thrown at you left and right with just a few pointers of what you need to do. As such it can feel both overwhelming an railroady, moreso compared to the more open world of BG1.
It gets better once you get the hanf of tge story and begin to make your decissions, but it is also a bit dragged down that a worse writting tgan the first installment.
I would encourage you to keep playing since there's some cool stuff ahead of you, but honestly, if it's not the game for you, it isn't.
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>>3903436
I played BG2 when it came out and have played it an innumerable amount of times
I’ve never once bothered to skip it or used the chateau Irenicus mod. It’s not that big of a deal and it doesn’t take that long. It’s similar to the fo2 temple of trials level of overblown whining.
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>>3896448
Baldur Gate 2 is extremely outdated and overrated, nobody that thinks this game is great has good taste, not a single one.
Game was on life support until the third one got blown up in popularity, thats how irrelevant it was and how poorly it aged, and the expansion is even worse somehow, go figure, Bioware is for teenagers, when you grow up and gain gaming experience you realize their games are shallow mess.
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>>3903423
After the first dungeon I did some quests on like 4 or 6 different locations and all the side quests played in the exact same way. I think the only quest that wasn't combatslop was some harper necklace thing but it was a railroaded fetch quest. The mage stronghold quest was my breaking point because I thought that I finally get to make a seemingly important decision only for me to find out that it's also railroaded combatslop.
It's just clearly inferior to similar games like Fallout and Arcanum that were released at the same time. Even if I played and enjoyed it I would still call it slop or guilty pleasure. My main problem comes from the fact that people are now treating BG like a standard for how RPG's should be designed which directly harms me since there will be less RPG's I enjoy playing
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It always annoys me how you can't refuse to go to Gaelan Bayle's house. No matter what options you pick, you are forced to follow him. If you go through the effort of trying to refuse, you eventually get a dialogue option that sounds like he is finally going to fuck off and let you leave, only for it to loop back around and trap you until you agree to go with him.
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>>3896448
>>Game assumes that I care about their NPCs and focuses it's story around them rather than player character
I was going to reply seriously until I read this. The game is ENTIRELY focused on the protag.
You reek of a retarded monkey that played the tutorial dungeon and then your ADHD kicked in and you went to /v/ and /vrpg/ to attentionwhore.
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>>3903518
I don't think it even triggers without jaheira. I only went there because she was nagging about it all the time
>>3903559
Yea that's the design of most of the bg2 quests it seems. I'm glad I dodged the bullet by dropping it instead of hoping it gets better someday
>>3903586
But there are people who played it more than I did and that confirm my assumptions. It's unreasonable to assume that biowares would change their entire design philosophy midway through and become a good RPG since nothing so far has indigitated that
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>>3903829
>But there are people who played it more than I did and that confirm my assumptions
You only read what you wanted while ignoring the rest, classic confirmation bias.
> nothing so far has indigitated that
You played the tutorial, you are objectively and factually a subhuman retard for even thinking this. You're an ignorant retard that unironically thinks it's a good idea to speak about AN ENTIRE GAME when knows absolutely NOTHING about and has made over 20 different utterly wrong assumptions and statements yet still sit here going
>uuuuuuuh, well acthually i wus rite about my dumb shit
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>>3904073
That goes without saying, just got done with the chosen of cyric encounter from RR and I'm checkng out eet this time around. It has some interesting late game mods but idk if I'll stick with it going forward. Having access to the first game is kinda weird, you can drop all your items before the final boss from sod and skip all the progression from the beginning of bg2. Also going through SoD every playthrough might get old fast.
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>>3896481
Thing is BG1 at least (haven’t played 2) is not a very compelling dungeon crawler. It’s an isometric game with an automap so getting lost isn’t really a thing. In D&D of that era thieves had a special ability to climb up walls, in BG1 there aren’t any objects you can climb up. No listening or peeking through doors to see what’s on the other side. No need to buy rations and keep track of food or water. No uses for rope or ten-foot poles. While infravision is a spell in the game I don’t think it actually does anything. D&D has a lot of mechanics that have rarely been featured in its videogame adaptations. Dungeon crawling in Baldur’s Gate at least 1 is basically just walking between combats with the occasional pass or fail obstacle for your thief to handle. The Elder Scrolls 1 Arena at least gave you riddles to solve in every main dungeon.
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>>3904943
If you are a completionist who goes everywhere and does everything, BG3 is probably about as long, or slightly longer, than BG2. Probably in the 80-100 hour range for a first playthrough.
However,BG3 sucks.
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>>3896448
I stopped somewhere in the Underark after either encountering or dealing with the dragon. I was thoroughly bored throughout the game, and when I wasn't I found it grating to get through. I don't understand why people tout it as the greatest RPG ever made. It was like reading a subpar fantasy book with mandatory breaks in-between the lukewarm writing for some mind-numbing battles.
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>>3905498
>I don't understand why people tout it as the greatest RPG ever made.
This usually means "played it as an impressionable adolescent". It's related to the adage that "the golden age of science fiction is age twelve".
>t. played BG2 as an impressionable adolescent
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>>3905501
I played BG2 as an adult, and it's one of the best crpgs I've ever played.
>BUT THE WRITING IS WORSE THAN A MEDIOCRE NOVEL
We're not talking about mediocre novels. We're talking about crpgs.
>BUT IT DOESN'T GIVE YOU THE FREEDOM OF A TABLETOP RPG
We're not talking about tabletop rpgs. We're talking about crpgs.
>BUT THE ROMANCE OPTIONS DON'T ALLOW ME TO SUCK COCK
We're not talking about sucking cock. We're talking about crpgs.
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>>3905835
>And it's still mediocre even by the standards of CRPGs
The modern standards are the lowest it has ever been. If games like Pathfinder WotR, BG3 and [insert no-name indie game] is what is considered great and the peak of the genre, the situation is grim.
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>>3904957
>BG3 sucks
Just played it for 8 hours yesterday, and other than the fact that TB takes 10× as long as real time combat, its looking to be a great experience, especially compared to modern RPG's.
(Is there a mod that fast forwards the AI's turn??)
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>>3897334
Irenicus is hard carried by having a stellar voice actor who breathes life onto the character, without that you quickly realize he's just a spiteful incel hellbent on ruining everybody else's day because we can't have nice things.
At least his sister Bodhi has an amazing ass, too bad you can't have undead seggs with her.
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>>3905855
>If games like Pathfinder WotR, BG3 and [insert no-name indie game] is what is considered great and the peak of the genre, the situation is grim
The thing all these games have incommon is that they were inspired by Biowares design philosophy which prevailed over Troika's philosophy. I genuinely believe that if slop like BG1-2 never existed and Troika games were more popular then we would live in a much better world. But alas majority of people are retarded and we can't have nice things
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>>3896448
>I don't care what's the lore if the game itself didn't make the effort to develop connection and just wrote "she's ur sister you must love" in her backstory
You know the game is a direct sequel to the first game, right?
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>>3907627
Imoen is also only established as your sister in bg2, bg1 barely has characters. The most memorables lines you have in the game is quayle's stupid death sound jaheira's authority figure and xzar's I am death destroyer of worlds that plays 500 times.
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>>3907550
>you are there to fight.
Then it's a fighting game, not a role playing game. If it was marketed as such I would not have complaints but that's not the case
>>3907627
I'm saying there are better ways to make a sequel that enhance roleplaying instead of throwing it into the trash. Also I'm pretty sure she can fucking die in BG1 or I can make a character who hates her which throws the entire plot off the rails. Saying "it's a sequel" doesn't fix those flaws because biowares wrote a plot not for the rpg but for the movie where everything is predetermined and player has no agency
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>>3907781
>Then it's a fighting game, not a role playing game. If it was marketed as such I would not have complaints but that's not the case
Quoth the BG2 box:
>Every world has conflict. Good and evil. Friend and foe. Safety and danger. In Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn, you'll find yourself between these factions. This epic sequel to the Roleplaying Game of the Year will immerse you in a world of intrigue, adventure, and fierce combat where your ability to discern the difference between these sides - with the assistance of steel and spell - determines your fate.
>New weapons and AD&D proficiencies (including a two-weapon fighting style) create unique combat options for players.
>Encounter hundreds of different types of monsters, thousands of NPCs, and over 130 new spells (for a total of over 300!) in a huge and intricate world.
>New races and character kits such as the Half-Orc, Beastmaster, Undead Hunter, and Assassin add to an extensive array of character options.
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>>3896448
The choice to murder everything you see is fully supported, anon. You can literally kill every single person on the map. The guards can be called and you can exterminate them too if you're powerful enough.
There are no other games which allow you to just completely kill everyone.
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>>3910584
>You can literally kill every single person on the map. The guards can be called and you can exterminate them too if you're powerful enough.
Try killing Aran Linvale and report back.
>There are no other games which allow you to just completely kill everyone.
For me, it’s Morrowind
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Copypasting my message from other thread, hoping for help.
I'm playing it for the first time now. I'm currently in act 2 - finished exploring Atkhatla, De'Arnise Hold, Umar Hills and Windspear Hills. I'm going to Trademeet and thinking about adding Rasaad to the team. Here's the thing. I've hit 1,250,000 experience which is the cap for newly recruited companions. Everything afterwards will be vastly underleveled. I'd like to avoid that.
How viable is Rasaad (or monk in general) from level 13 onward?
Will I suffer a lot without Thief in the party? I don't care much about backstabbing and setting traps. In theory I can bash chests and open them with Knock spell. Traps can be activated with summons. Still, I don't know how common are repeatable traps and unbashable locks.
My team is Dwarven Defender, Keldorn, Minsc, Valygar, Yoshimo and Aerie.
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>>3911041
Monks are kinda ass. An MC optimized monk is kinda okay, and Rasaad ain't optimal. They get okay spell resistance I guess?
Just get him for his quests/items and ignore him afterwards
Thieves are convenient, and Yoshimo is convenient till you reach spellhold.
You could replace Minc or Keldorn for another character with little issue I guess(be it another frontliner, or a cleric for very useful spell list)
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>>3896448
You'll find that happens a lot. For some reason people really struggle making distinctions between shit they enjoyed growing up and shit that actually is objectively good.
BG1 and 2 are really mediocre at best. Fallout 1 and 2 are even worse and I'd call them outright bad. Arcanum is just okay. Planescape has absolutely dogshit gameplay, and a decent story. Most old CRPGs were really bad. BG3 mogs them hard, despite having an atrocious set of characters and a mediocre story, purely because of the gameplay. If you want a kino old CRPG, play Jagged Alliance 2, even if it's not entirely traditional.
It's just one of those things. You have to take anything people say about old games in particular with a massive grain of salt, and I say this as someone who grew up playing these games. I played the shit out of Quest For Glory 5 and loved it, but you don't see me going around praising it like it was amazing, because it objectively wasn't.
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>>3910563
Okay I think I was wrong here because I wasn't born when BG2 was released and didn't know about the official stance, but only about what the fans and codextards and youtubers were saying. I assumed that Bioware had the same marketing as Larian who said that BG3 had tons of roleplaying and 13 000 endings which was obviously false, and the Larian design philosophy is directly inspired Bioware which is why I also hate Bioware by association.
>>3911068
>Fallout 1 and 2 are even worse and I'd call them outright bad
What are your metrics? For me Fallout 1-2 is 100 times better because a single Tandi rescue quest from Fallout 1 offered me more choices and roleplaying opportunities than every single quest from BG2 combined.
>BG3 mogs them hard, despite having an atrocious set of characters and a mediocre story, purely because of the gameplay
Oh okay so you don't even take choices and roleplaying into consideration when judging a ROLEPLAYING game.
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>>3911041
Rasaad is the worst companion in the game, and his quest in shadows of amn has the "best" ending making him leave your party til throne of bhaal, I'd avoid him and pick up either imoen or nalia cause those improved hastes from aerie are going to last like 20 seconds. Monks just feel like dogshit you're a way worse fighter for 90% of the game and even in tob a fighter is probably going to be stronger than you cause of all the bonuses they get from equipment and onhit effects. Nevermind not being immune to crits and having to reload every now and then if rasaad blows up
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>>3911098
I absolutely take roleplaying into consideration. It's my main focus, in fact.
>Tandi rescue
Proving my point. Here's your roleplaying:
-Kill everyone.
-Kill the boss 1 on 1.
-Pass a speech check.
-Buy her.
All good and fine. My problem is, the quest always resolves the same. No one reacts to the fact that you snuck in, or bought her or whatever. It always ends the same. There is no roleplaying, it's all just pure flavor.
In BG3? You get the same variety of options, except the world actually reacts to it to an absurd detail (such as pickpocketing a quest reward from an NPC, then doing their quest, and then seeing them comment on how their reward is gone and they can't give it to you anymore)
My complaints about F1/2 are mostly gameplay-related, sure, the shooting, movement, and general lack of tactics or any sort of thinking is really bad and what sours me on the games, but they aren't good for roleplaying, either. They don't even bother giving you real reasons for doing anything evil, it's all just cartoony evil for the sake of evil, with shitty quips included.
In BG3, if you decide to raze the grove, there's a good reason for it. It gets you an in with the cult you're investigating (and a follower). You get the gameplay choice AND the roleplaying and reactions. In Fallout, you only get the gameplay.
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>>3911101
The outcome of Tandi quest direclty affects the ending of Shady Sands which should be reactive enough. BG3 doesn't even have ending slides btw because writer thought he was making a movie lol. I also think it changes dialogues of shady sand residents but I'm not sure.
>There is no roleplaying
I get where you coming from but expecting a separate "reaction" (idk what you mean by that exactly) for every single way to beat a quest is unreasonably hard and Fallout 1 already does a good job by giving you a way to resolve a quest using your preferred method which complements your roleplaying. If you're roleplaying a talker and you resolve a quest by talking you're roleplaying and there's no need for anything else for that to be the face.
>In BG3? You get the same variety of options
No you don't actually. There are a lot of mandatory quests and encounters which can be resolved ONLY by combat which makes it impossible to RP as a talker or a thief the same way you do in Fallout.
>except the world actually reacts to it to an absurd detail
That's not my experience. In my first run I accidentally murdered half of the grove because I had a fight with guard and the other half didn't react to it at all and the thiefling leader never acknowledged the fact that I killed like 80% thieflings in front of his door.
>such as pickpocketing a quest reward from an NPC, then doing their quest, and then seeing them comment on how their reward is gone and they can't give it to you anymore
That's a TikTok advertisement clip which is one off gag that is not enough for roleplaying. No one in BG3 reacts to anything you do and you can be a murderhobo who slaughters EVERYONE and no one will give a shit because BG3 doesn't have mechanics like karma and reputation to keep track of your actions. In Fallout/Arcanum there are different perks like child killer, maniac, vilified, etc. to keep track of what you do. BG3 even ditched the alignment system which was one of my favorite RP aspects
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>>3911101
>My problem is, the quest always resolves the same. No one reacts to the fact that you snuck in, or bought her or whatever. It always ends the same. There is no roleplaying, it's all just pure flavor
Now you're confusing 'roleplaying' and 'reactivity'.
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The entire game feels like a chore and tedium, but why is the combat in this game so bad? Especially the mage fights? I managed to finish IWD and HoF TWICE with solo Shapeshifter and Sorcerer, but I keep dropping the game because most encounters with spellcasters are some of the most obtuse or tedious I've encountered in a game. They can cast several buffs at the same time AND it's not uncommon to have them be resistant or outright immune to spells designed specifically to breach their defenses/dispel them. If they don't eventually kill me/my party, it just turns into a drag where neither of us can really harm each other any longer. How do you overcome this and why did I not encounter the same bullshit in IWD?
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>>3911104
>. No one in BG3 reacts to anything you do and you can be a murderhobo who slaughters EVERYONE and no one will give a shit because BG3 doesn't have mechanics like karma and reputation to keep track of your actions
Not that guy but you are talking out your ass my dude, they put you in prison if you get caught stealing or trespassing in BG3. I know it's less immersive than a little statistic on your character sheet that has no tangible game effect, but it still happens.
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>>3896448
Three things.
First, this is insincere bait.
Second, its a hard-sequel to BG1. The majority of what you mentioned wouldn't even occur to you if you played the 1st one and were invested in the characters like you should have been.
Third even though BG2 is a great game, your right about it not having a lot of roleplay decisions with consequences. There's a few minor ones and one major one that I can remember, but that's about it. At the time it was a revolutionary game, but this board does overblow it significantly, its probably not even in the top 10 cRPG's on the market right now, but it still goes in the hall of fame for being so far ahead of its time at the turn of the millenia.
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>>3911109
Okay this is bait
>>3911132
This doesn't have any far reaching implications and the game don't acknowledge it in any way afterwards which is my primary complain. As I said this could be easily fixed if there was at least a karma and reputation system but Larian deliberately cut all the roleplaying mechanics out so the game has no way of knowing what you did which led to crime and punishment system being extremely buggy and goofy
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>>3911140
My man not everything the player character does has to echo through eternity. It doesn't affect the story because it's not important. Should the merchants in later acts treat you differently because you spent a lot of money on the ones in the first act? Who cares, this is silly.
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>>3911101
>It gets you an in with the cult you're investigating (and a follower).
What? Nothing about Act2 changes at all, being "in with the cult" is just your headcanon not something that is actually in the game. Also you arent investigating them you are looking for a cure lmao did you even pay attention at all?
And Manthara is essentially an easter egg character with 0 content.
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>>3912078
>Way too much BG2 dicksucking is just people trying to fit in, rather than actual enjoyment of the game.
This is the opposite of the truth, in my experience. Pretty much the only people who have anything positive to say about it were people who already played it back in the day and liked it. It's trendy and popular for zoomers on this board to bash all the old classic games because out of either "they're too clunky to get into" or contrarian "that classic you like? it's actually shit", take your pick.
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>>3912244
I think it's because it's a just generic fantasy setting that doesn't say anything or has any interesting themes. Then again Planescape is set in the same universe and has much more interesting world because it makes use of it's setting to say something. BG on the other hand doesn't say anything besides "this is a fantasy world where u must go kill stuff"
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>>3912259
That's basically Forgotten Realms for you. The most generic fantasy setting where everything has a place. The good thing is that, well, you can fit anything into it. The bad thing is that it lacks uniqueness or an idiosincrasy.
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>>3912352
U make a good point. Forgotten Realms is the most generic fantasy universe that I can think of. Asides from maybe the progenitor LotR. I think that's why its my favorite fantasy universe. It's simple a more complicated and deeper LotR world that "has everything" but nothing particularly unique. Though part of the reason for that is that for whatever Forgotten Realms ripped from LoTR, everything else ripped from Forgotten Realms. So retrospectively it became generic over time, when it became the inspiration for many other fantasy worlds that came after.
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>>3912359
LotR feels generic because it set the example what a western middle ages fantasy world should look like aand everything that came after it ripped it off in some way or another.
And just to be clear I didn't meant to shit on FR. I was merely describing how it works, and it works pretty well acvording to design. From the get go FR was meant to be generic, vast but not deep, in order to fit almost any fantasy cmpaign creators and players could think of. And it that regard it works perfectly.
This comes at the cost of uniqueness and personality, but you can get any player on the same page in a matter of minutes without having to dump massive ammounts of lore on them.
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>>3912138
>muh zoomers hating on my childhood sweetheart
it's been always trendy to shit on things with a huge following because it's guaranteed to produce a response
even before the Internets
that being said BG2 deserves the hate for being shilled as the no. 1 crpg of all time by the most basic nostalgic normies. Would it just be universally talked as the alright crpg it really is, it wouldn't get as much hate.
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>>3911137
if YOU played the 1st game you'd know the 2nd assumes the player to care for a FRACTION of the companions cast of the 1stand mostly not even the cool ones
which is understandable, since there were so many of those, but still meh
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>>3912562
I've read fellowship i.e. 1/3 of Lotr. I don't mean that its a generic world because of itself. It was revolutionary at the time, intricate, and the best of the best(he created a new language for it). Only that its become* generic overtime due to how much its assets have been utilized in other fantasy media. Arguably the decades of lore that have been added to Forgotten Realms have made it deeper and more complex than LoTR, but its still generic from a modern perspective, just like LoTR. Lotr and Forgotten Realms have the "general" elements of nearly every fantasy world that's come after them, hence the call for it being generic.
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>>3912565
Your completely missing the part where one of OP's(you?) major criticisms of the game came down to not giving a fuck about imoen. A problem solved by playing bg1. Also Jahira and Minsc are good aligned party members from bg1, ya know the ones you start with?
>invested in the characters like you should have been
Imoen (play bg1, care about saving her, motivated play the game, solved)
Jahira (play bg1, understand and care about her story, her grief, solved)
Minsc (play bg1, not much is really added aside from maybe a few references to bg1, this one is fairly unimportant)
>characters
Notice the plurality, 2 or more.
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>>3912601
>I've read fellowship i.e. 1/3 of Lotr.
I've actually produced a condescending chuckle, not sure if I need to kill myself now or if I can live with it
other settings copying aspects of LotR don't make LotR generic, anon
it's a fairly obvious claim in general, X having aspects that others fail to reproduce despite reproducing a fraction of superficial aspects makes X non-generic
LotR still stands out among all fantasy settings and there is literally nothing like it
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>>3912611
anon you are obviously emotional and defensive about this topic, a very feminine trait ngl
I finished BG1 several years prior to trying out BG2 about a year or so after it was released and I didn't give two fucks neither of those, which is only natural considering all the non-iterating companions options in BG1
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>>3912620
>I finished BG1 several years prior to trying out BG2 about a year or so after it was released and I didn't give two fucks neither of those
So you cared about one, the other, or both? Which one did you like?
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>>3912614
>there is literally nothing like it
Literally everything is like it in many ways anon. Elves? Halflings? Orcs? Dwarves? Wizards?
Maybe there's nothing like the story, its a great story. But the world? There's plenty like it, respectfully.
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>>3912657
so?
those are all surface level things anon
you have to look past the superficial aspects and I have to say by this point I'm not sure you are capable of that
but there isn't a single fantasy world that would feel as having as real, as tangible of a history of grand events or personal hardships that tie in to form this unity of a world.
There is nothing like it.
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>>3912662
>there is nothing like it
It sounds like your not very well read in fantasy literature. Have you ever read Wheel of Time? Stormlight Archive? Sanderson? Malazan?
There is definitely a lot like it, its called epic fantasy and meets all of those criteria to which you are referring.
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>>3912716
So you haven't read any of them...? Yet you have an opinion on them...? I'm not exactly sure what your laughing at? Is that "no I haven't read them" or "no I disagree with you"?
Based on your response I'd venture to say my initial hunch was correct, you're not* very well read...
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>>3912702
Nah dude. some come close (Wheel of Time, Midkemia aka Riftwar Saga), and some are in another room altogether, especially Sanderson. You need to remind yourself that Tolkien was a professional linguist of an old-school hardening/schooling - a guy who invented a functional new language. On top of the worldbuilding which he made after understanding the way we build or own myths and legends - the mechanics and substance - and thus created a whole new onem instead of using ours as a mere template. Style AND substance, while Sanderson can pass only the appearances/style.
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>>3912789
That's what I thought, not very well read... Your opinions are baseless, so you can only cook up condescending ragebait remarks in response in a desperate attempt to win an ego battle wherein you establish your the "top dog". Congratulations I guess? It's obvious you read Lotr stopped there and made uninformed opnions about the rest of fantasy. The anon below at least has an informed opinion that's respectable and is willing to engage in good faith.
>>3912787
If you read through my comments I did my mention the functionality language as being the key part that's never really been done before. Even other made up languages like klingon don't have real sophistication. >>3912601
Sanderson gets a bad rap, quite unfairly on 4chan. His books actually do something that no other fantasy world has even done (Tolkein included). The way his world and cast are stitched together through the cosmere is actually quite unique. Tolkien God rest his soul spent the majority of his life writing 2 books and a collection of short stories, maybe if he had written more he would have created an interconnect world and cast, but as of now really only Sanderson has done it on the level that he has. The trade off of course with Sanderson is that his pros are bland and the quality of his writing is hit or miss whereas Tolkiens is solid(though there's not much of it)
Wheel of Time is actually the main series I was thinking of in comparison. I will say two things Lotr has on wheels of time is that a)the world's backstory/lore isn't as sophisticated and b)there's no unique language(let's face it elvish is a gimmick, albeit a good one). However it also* does things that very few if any fantasy stories have ever done(Lotr included). Thats having an intricate plot with large character moments foreshadowed over an epic length of time(14/15 books). LoTR just isn't capable of executing some of things a story like WoT can due to its very short length.
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>>3896448
It's similar to Morrowind in that, if you're mature enough to tolerate archaic gameplay, it's one of the best games ever made.
If you're a zoomgroid with ADHD, yeah, BG2 is going to give you a panic attack or something. You're to stupid and your attention span is too short. It'd be like expecting an 8-year-old to enjoy fishing. Your brain is just too underdeveloped and weak.
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>>3913092
Ok this is the worst take on bg2 I've ever heard, the only great aspect of this game is the gameplay, companions and bants are cute especially with jan in the party but the story is completely linear and even stuff like how people praise irenicus, he has 10 minutes of screentime and that is counting his showup in ascension tob.
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>>3913491
>completely linear
Really? That wasn't my experience of it. It felt like there was a lot of side content and you could go anywhere up until a certain point. Hmm I guess it does get pretty railroaded once you leave to go to you know where.
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>>3913092
I'm an ADHD zoomer(26) with a second monitor (technically a third monitor some times) and I didn't think Morrowind or Baldur's Gate were all that archaic.
Granted, they both needed a bit of getting-used-to in order to understand mechanics like how important fatigue was in the former, or pausing and the action economy in the latter are.
But for the most part, I thought they really scratched an itch that I've been looking for for a while. A really numbers-heavy game that demands that you do a bunch of internal risk/reward calculations. Stuff like "Should I try for a stun, do damage, summon an ally, or maybe flee to gain distance" or "How much of a benefit would it be to have this fire aspected weapon versus this one with greater accuracy but lower damage overall. Maybe I'll want to bring along this one that has a +4 against undead just in case"
Baldur's Gate was a pretty good game to play on a steam deck, but I'll admit, it was way too easy to just set it down to go scroll some 4chan after every death. Maybe that's why my play time is so much longer than most people seem to take. (around 340 hours combined for both games)
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>>3896922
You can go pretty much where you want in bg2 as well though? Surely 'get money for boat trip' is the game telling you to do that - I remember spending several dozen hours just exploring before deciding to go on the boat trip
As far as I can tell the only difference is bg1 has a lot more empty wilderness, whereas bg2 feels more quality over quantity
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>>3896448
I didn't like the story and characters that much either, but I was expecting something that was more in-between IWD and Torment (I guess it technically is because it has 'official' named party members (idk how else to put it)).
That said it;s still god tier for the gameplay in terms of the amount of class choices and epic battles you have.
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>>3916258
How'd did you get get the steam deck to work with bg1/2? It doesn't have native controller support. I'm (25) zoomer and I think most of what you said is spot on, but I want to add a critique. At least for me, using a m+k it felt like late game battles took longer than they needed to. Particularly in bg2. The amount of wizards you have to fight at once, combined with real time pause slows a lot of the battles down to a crawl. Maybe its simply because I didnt use hot keys but still, I can only imagine it would taken a ridiculous amount of time to get through battles with a controller, particularly if you dont have native optimization.
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Baldur "BIB":)
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>>3896448
despite what people might say, bg2 isn't really a story game and is more of a hack n slash with a small amount of narrative direction
it's super railroaded plotwise and half of the plots don't even make sense, like yoshimo. it feels strongly like the writers hated forgotten realms as a setting but were forced to do it.