>>3913648
Unfortunately, combat is an unavoidable part of blobbers. I'm pretty sure blobbers have, on average, notably more combat than other "classic" (i.e. non-H&S/ARPG) RPG genres. 99% of blobbers revolve around slowly turning your party into an unstoppable death blob (pun intended) throughout the game.

>>3913648
well step one is not playing Wiz8 that game is hot garbage and a new blobber isn't gonna be able to appreciate how busted and insane it is

>>3913648
>Is this just a case of me being fundamentally incompatible with the genre?
You just don't like rpg's. Mindless spam combat is part of the genre. Play a different genre or stick to srpg.

>>3913708
This anon b wildin. Wiz 8 is perfectly fine with the missing items fix and combat speedup mod.
The real issue is, it's not a great entry point for people looking into blobbers. Just because it's the most approachable old-series Wizardry game doesn't mean it's newbie-friendly.

>>3913648
Wizardry 8 and M&M were failed experiments in making mobs exists within a 3D world. It doesn't in any way suit the flow of a blobber where combat attrition is a constant factor.

I have no idea what you mean by blobber.

>>3913721
>It doesn't in any way suit the flow of a blobber where combat attrition is a constant factor.
Really, nigga?

>>3913648
I'm sure this post is in good faith and you aren't just making cowardly meandering insults at a subgenre you don't like.

Just say what you mean and be done with it.

blobber gameplay was improved by the genre's evolution into jrpgs, which is rather damning

>>3913742
Gonna cry?

I just want a game like legends of grimrock 1, the less puzzles the better, theres Grimoire and Gates of Skeldal but what else

theres dozens of great jap blobbers you could be playing instead of western slop crpgs

>>3913766
Nah, you do all the crying already.

>>3913757
Historically incorrect and provably so.
Blobbers didn't become jrpgs. They became MMOs. Specifically, they became Everquest, which literally had a blobber UI when it first launched.
Jrpgs were never blobbers, they were a parallel genre entirely, and descended from top-down adventure games (think Zelda, not Zork).

>>3913790
Have you never seen or heard of Ultima?

>>3913778
Someone has to say something worth replying to, God knows you won't.

>>3913809
The reply was as worthy as >>3913766 was.

>>3913833
This >>3913766 was what >>3913742 deserved. No interaction, no thoughts, just ghettospeak.
It is possible to do better in disagreement, to have a conversation.

>>3913837
>No interaction, no thoughts
You mean like >>3913766 ? Why didn't you take your own advice and do better then? Surely, you'd have arguments against ghettospeak if you had substance behind the
>(3D combat) doesn't in any way suit the flow of a blobber where combat attrition is a constant factor.
... statement. Oh wait, you didn't - you were voicing your emotional impression. Get niggered then, you faggot.

>>3913846
>still no argument
lol
>Get niggered
projection

So the answer to "Gonna cry?" was a resounding yes.

>>3913846
>(3D combat)
Wait, I missed this, you didn't even understand my post.
lmao

>>3913849
>Surely, you'd have arguments against ghettospeak if you had substance behind the
"(3D combat) doesn't in any way suit the flow of a blobber where combat attrition is a constant factor." statement. Oh wait, you didn't - you were voicing your emotional impression.

You're the one that failed reading comprehension, yet I'm projecting? Lol.

>>3913851
>Wizardry 8 and M&M were failed experiments in making mobs exists within a 3D world. It doesn't in any way suit the flow of a blobber where combat attrition is a constant factor.

Alright, full post. What did I misunderstand?

>>3913708
What other blobbers would you recommend to someone who has never played one?

>>3913903
Legend of grimrock
>t. Never played any bobbers

>>3913907
Personally, I think real-time blobbers are worse than turn-based ones. Never liked EotB.

>>3913790
your obsession with pedigree blinds you

>>3913790
>Blobbers didn't become jrpgs. They became MMOs. Specifically, they became Everquest, which literally had a blobber UI when it first launched.
Everquest was just a MUD with a GUI. You played one character, not a party, so how was it a "blobber"?

>>3913648
>tfw thrusting at higardi roustabouts

>>3913708
Wiz 8 seemed to me like one of the few blobbers that had some degree of narrative choice to counterbalance the shit combat* (read: 100% of gameplay in other blobbers) . Every other that I'm aware of is like Doom but you control 4 or more characters at once. Only you don't really control them, they amalgamate into one multi class character like Skyrim or some other theme park RPG - you left click and spells/sword swings happen until enemy dead

>>3914227
lmao

>>3914227
If you only play Wiz 8, the narrative is truncated, since you're missing the background story. Then again, going all the way (6-7-8) is a greater investment, in time and effort, than many are willing to make.

>>3914227
Please stay away from blobbers and go back to visual novels/jrpg's.

>>3913790
>Jrpgs were never blobbers, they were a parallel genre entirely, and descended from top-down adventure games
not only Dragon Quest was acknowledged by its creators as being directly influenced by Wizardry and Ultima games, but it was also released just a couple months after Zelda
you must be the most clueless poster on this board

>>3914227
it's cute how zoomers who have read max 5 books in their entire lives start lecturing about narrative
video game narrative is on the same level as 70ies porn movie's narrative

Who came up with the term blobber it's fucking stupid

>>3914582
Supposedly it was originally a pejorative.

>>3914582
It probably makes little sense to kids like who have never seen a Blob movie.

So all blobbers are shit and hey hey people lied to us?

Try playing Might and Magic 7 first. 6 is a much more hardcore game thats better for veterans. Mm7 is the first one I played as a kid and I have a lot of nostalgia for it. Also try playing heroes of might and magic 3, too. Its not a blobber, but maybe it will help you get into the lore and world since both games take place in the same setting. Also has the same monsters, which is kind of cool.

>>3913648
You can start by not helping to force that retarded quirk chungus nickname for first person DRPGs

>>3914583
whats up with rpg "fans" and trying to adopt pejorative insults as their jargon? Real beta cuckshit

>>3913723
It's where the party moves and acts as a single group rather than independently, much like a multi-headed blob

>>3914651
DRPG is the Japanese subgenre based on Wizardry, which are all turn-based. It doesn't cover Dungeon Master clones.

>>3914720
Here we go again with this bullshit.

>>3913648
play grimrock

>>3914807
>Here we go again with this bullshit.
Did you learn nothing from your previous humiliation(s)?

>>3914920
Yeah, i learned schizos are extremely delusional.

>>3914923
This constant and random application of the schizo meme allows you to pretend you aren't just stupid, huh? It's basically a memetic security blanket.

>>3913775
Can I have some recs? I enjoy Etrian Odyssey, would like more in that vein.

>>3915019
Translation:
YOU SO DUMB, ME SO SMART!
Good job.
>>3915048
Got the drpg thread, somebody posted about anime blobbers.

>>3915061
Not at all, I am not made a genius by others being retards or kids caught up in memetic cobwebs.

>>3914687
>moves and acts as a single group
don't the characters act independently though? like the wizard casts a spell and the ninja hides, etc

>>3915131
Yeah, think how JRPG parties work and you've got it.

>>3915048
Potato Flowers in Full Bloom had good class design and fights, but the dungeon was pretty boring.

>Top down overworld
>Blob dungeon exploration
>Tactical overhead combat
This is the way.

>>3914654
Because some RPGs just aren't very good, you Higardi roustabout.

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>>3914654
Insults are bad enough, but pejorative insults are the worst.

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>>3915156
pwease don't make fun of my fwippers

>>3914307
seething wizardytroon

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I like anime blobbers and visual novels but I do not like jrpgs, specially turn based jrpgs. Crpgs are even worse all western RPGs are shit. But anime blobbers are good! good gameplay no bloat, no dialogue spam, usually few cutscenes etc very gameplay focused is good !

>>3915214
Using wizardry as a insult is a joke.

>>3915233
Likes blobbers, ok?
Like anime blobbers,ok?
Hates western blobbers,Wtf?
I mean, western blobbers are much more gameplay oriented than the anime ones.

>>3915237
it is what it is unc

>>3915251
>unc
Zoomer speak, every single time.

So which bloober to play?

>>3915321
>>3914649

>>3913648
Is this the Gothic gang?

>>3913648
Why are you forcing yourself to like things in the first place? If it's shit, it's shit.

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>>3914352
this, playing with interesting combat systems and encounters is much more fun than reading fanfic-tier stories

>>3915843
It's not a matter of forcing, it's trying to understand why a genre is popular when you yourself don't connect with it. What do others see that you don't? I'm sure you've had a game or film or whatever what you gave three or four tries before realising you 'got' it. Vamp was mine

>>3916170
How about playing with the narrative?

>>3916206
Dungeon Travelers 2 is great and if you don't like it you have no pulse or brains.

>But the lewd girls!!! Ahhhh!
Just ignore or, or don't, either way the gameplay is fun and challenging

>>3916170
Carmack is an autistic sperg, he only cares about systems and numbers. Of course he would think story is of marginal value.

>>3916210
Story interrupts gameplay and gameplay interrupts story.
RPGs need to either go 80% story 20% gameplay like visual novels and point n click adventures.
Or go 80% action and 20% subtle noninvasive lore - like Dark Souls.

They really suffer when they go 50/50 or 60/40 imho.

>>3915687
Nah I don't want to start with the 7th game in a series.

>>3916210
Doom had a better story than 90% of new RPGs

>>3915321
Your mother.

>>3917664
Might and Magic 6 and 7 (plus Heroes of Might and Magic 3) are their own story. 6 is way harder than 7 and will absolutely filter you.

>>3917664
M&M games are a bit disconnected when it comes to the over-arching plot
I mean sure, there is one connecting meta-plot, but it's not as important
if you want to start with 7 and miss a lot you actually have to play
>M&M 3
>HoM&M 1
>HoM&M 2
>HoM&M 3
>M&M 6
>M&M 7
you don't have to actually play most of those before playing 7, unironically just read the plot summery, all M&M games are gameplay first type of games anyway

>>3913648
If you like the dungeon crawling but hate the turn-based combat you could try Dungeon Master and its clones (Like Eye of the Beholder and Legend of Grimrock)
>>3916252
It's interesting to note, I did a back-of-the-envelope estimation awhile back based on some incomplete but hard observations about the gameplay in the supposedly story-heavy Final Fantasy VI and found the cutscene ratio to be around 15% of the play time. Typically 5-15 minutes per hour of play (with 15 minute events being rare and often interspersed with combat anyway eg the Opera House event). Combat wasn't a full 85%, there was still shopping/menuing and talking to NPCs in towns taking up a significant fraction of time. But the majority of the game is still combat.

>>3918248
My understanding is that 6, 7 and Homm3 all take place in Erathia, and the others take place in a different world/land/continent.

>>3913648
>blobbers
i can't wait to stab one of you retarded niggers in the neck when i finally catch you in the wild

>>3918248
>>3918551
Some of the games are directly connected:
HoM&M 1 -> HoM&M 2 -> M&M 6 -> HoM&M 3 -> M&M 7.
Morglin Ironfist escapes from another world to Enroth, after killing his uncle, and eventually becomes king of the largest country on that continent. After his death, you get the Succession Wars between his two sons. Roland canonically wins and petrifies Archibald, then the Kreegans invade, requiring Archie to be de-stoned. Catherine (Roland's wife) goes back to Erathia, to fight various fucktards (including her lich-ified father), then the spaceship of those guys from M&M 3 lands in a nearby region soon after the end of the war.

M&M 1 - 5 are only loosely related to the above, they main provide some background lore (and the thingamajig everybody's trying to grab in M&M 7).

>>3918792
Good luck with that son
there is only 1 in 4 chance you will actually hit me when attacking my blob

>>3918792
Listen up retard. Blobbers,drpg, dungeon crawlers are all valid terms for this subgenre.Go fuck the diablo arpg schizo if you aren't him.

>>3918865
kek

>>3918884
>Go fuck the diablo arpg schizo if you aren't him.
I get a chuckle every time you get mad and talk about the “Diablo schizo” because I know that you’re talking about me, and I’ve seen you accuse at least three or four different anons.

>>3913648
The thing I need most in this life is a game that plays like doom, has the aesthetics, world, and map design of M&M6-8, and has a tons of NPCs with fleshed out character writing and a good story.
Shit like Mohrta is the closest I'll ever get.
But I crave a modern take on the old-school idea of open world maps.

>>3919214
why do they call you the "Diablo Schizo" anon?

>>3919452
>why do they call you the "Diablo Schizo" anon?
Three points:
1. "Hack and slash" and "dungeon crawler" (likely descended from 'pub crawl') are both broad stylistic terms that originated from tabletop games, and tabletop RPGs, to describe games/campaigns that are primarily focused on heavy amounts of combat with little story, and exploring a dungeon teeming with enemies, traps, and loot, respectively. They are not specific sub-genres of games or clones of any particular titles, but general descriptors. These terms have been in use since the early 1980s at a minimum, likely since the 70s.

2. The term "ARPG" is confusingly used to refer to two distinct concepts: one, the broader usage of "action RPG" dates back to at least the 1980s, and refers to RPGs which include some real time or action elements where player skill and reflexes affect combat, rather than combat being purely turn-based number crunching. Two, it is also used in a more modern context to refer to the specific sub-genre of Diablo clones. This second usage arose in the late 2000s. Many autistic arguments on this board result from anons using these two different meanings for the term without clarifying which definition they're using.

3. The original term for the second, later definition of "ARPG" was "Diablo clone", which was commonly used in the late 90s and early 2000s, before falling into disuse. Eventually, a new generation of players who weren't necessarily familiar with Diablo and Diablo 2 began calling this sub-genre "ARPGs" by the late 2000s, and this is the term commonly used for that sub-genre today. This is similar to how the term "Doom clone" was common in the mid 90s, while by the 2000s, the modern term of "first person shooter" replaced it.

For some reason, there's a number of zoomzooms who get really assblasted about one or more of these simple points. I don't know why, they're simple statements of historical fact, and not value judgements on any particular games.

>>3919456
As an oldfag, this is all correct.

>>3919435
>Mohrta
The game with the Don Quijote-themed undead gunslinger/crusader?

>>3919456
It's also a matter of hierarchy. All Diablo clones are ARPGs (since they include real time action elements where player skill directly affects combat), but not all ARPGs are Diablo clones (only a severe contrarian would claim that the Witcher titles are Diablo clones).

>>3919456
aye, I see now
can confirm regarding 3, similar terms like Diablo-like or in my mother tongue Diabloid were used as well

1 isn't specifically something I agree on since dungeon crawler was [for the most part] the only style of D&D played at least up to 1983-84, you go into the dungeon to find loot (and kill things, but mostly find loot), transport loot back into a safe town, rinse and repeat
saying that there was no story is a bit of a stretch but yeah pre-written stories were minimalistic to say at least and most of the storytelling was emergent in nature.
I think there is a heavily misunderstood quote by Gygex wondering abour the internet regarding "hack&slash" style D&D, it's not about being mostly dungeons (once again that was basically all D&D), I recon it was more about not coming up with creative solutions and always resorting to the attack "button"

>>3919456
The funny thing is that the confusion is mostly because lazy autists fucking love acronyms and can't be bothered to type out Action RPG or even the full name of a game. Acronymtards are the worst.

>>3919504
Your points seem reasonable to me. The primary disagreement, in my experience, is that there’s one or more anons for whom “dungeon crawler” specifically and exclusively means a clone of Dungeon Master or Wizardry. Which is all well and good if that’s how they want to use the term to describe games they like, but then they obstinately deny that the term has an older or broader meaning that predates those particular games, and then get mad and call you a schizo for bringing up the original usage of the term. Thats all. Similarly, there’s one or more anon for whom “hack n’ slash” exclusively means a Diablo clone.

>>3919456
>Hack and slash
Yes.
>dungeon crawler
No, even though it started from tabletop and plato stuff, it become a video game genre name. The reason for that is that dungeon crawler handled both the combat and exploration side of rpg's while hack and slash is meaningless for both.
And all of this is pointless anyway since tabletop is not videogames. Stuff like oubliette on Plato cemented what it was, first person, party creation and focus on dungeon only.
>The term "ARPG" is confusingly used to refer to two distinct concepts
No it doesn't. It means rpg with focus on combat and using action elements.
>The original term for the second, later definition of "ARPG" was "Diablo clone"
Nope, they were called arpg's. I don't care about google hits or something.Also, most arpg in that period( early 2000's) were not isometric diablo like. Unless you believe deus ex and gothic were even considered diablo like?
>zoomzooms
You are the zoomer. I have been wondering where do you get this bullshit? It is just copy paste from chatgpt. You and the stupid ai don't even mention roguelikes, a major telling sign.

And let me ask you a question?
Can you really tell me with a straight face that diablo shares gameplay elements with wizardy/dungeon master?
Can you really tell me with a straight face that oblivion shares gameplay elements with myst?

>>3919504
People did mix up their play usually, downtime in towns, exploration in the wilderness, politicking with the local nobles, hitting on bar wenches. You could have a whole campaign that never entered a dungeon and the DM's guide even in 1st edition encouraged DMs to vary it up.
>>3919509
>they were called arpg's
They were almost always called Action RPGs, fully spelled out, I don't remember seeing the ARPG acronym. Diablo clone came after many games started cloning Diablo and was specifically about games like Dungeon Siege or Prince of Qin.

>>3919513
You have a bad memory or didn't actually interact with anyone.

>>3919659
My GameFAQs account is almost 30 years old and I have an incredible memory. :)
You are probably have alcohol related memory loss and filled the gaps in with fantasy.

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>>3919509
>Nope, they were called arpg's.
You are wrong. Picrel.
>I don't care about google hits or something.
It's a useful metric for contrasting the relative usage over time of certain terms online, within the timeframe that Google was widely used. You "don't care" about it because it refutes what you're saying as anachronistic, and you have no rebuttal. The popular term in the late 90s and early 2000s was "Diablo clone" or similar, and "ARPG" became popular only later, in the late 2000s.

Allow me to repeat myself:
>the broader usage of "action RPG" dates back to at least the 1980s, and refers to RPGs which include some real time or action elements where player skill and reflexes affect combat
>["ARPG"] is also used in a more modern context to refer to the specific sub-genre of Diablo clones.
>Many autistic arguments on this board result from anons using these two different meanings for the term without clarifying which definition they're using.
You're doing precisely this. Presumably intentionally and not accidentally, as I'm literally laying out and distinguishing between two different common usages of the term, one older and broader, one newer and referring to a specific sub-genre of game, and you conveniently didn't quote that part of my post. You're intentionally conflating the two in order to have a dumb slapfight.
>Can you really tell me with a straight face that diablo shares gameplay elements with wizardy/dungeon master?
People were using the term "dungeon crawler" years before Dungeon Master came out, so how could "dungeon crawler" possibly mean "Dungeon Master clone"?
Can you really tell me with a straight face that Diablo is not about crawling through a dungeon? 1-4, temple, 5-8, catacombs, 9-12, caves, 13-16, hell. The whole game is a dungeon crawl. Have you even played it?

>>3919669
>GameFaqs
Gamefaqs forums have always sucked ass it was where all the most retarded kids posted.

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>>3919456
>"dungeon crawler" (likely descended from 'pub crawl')
Doubtful, Americans don't use "pub crawl". Dungeon crawler is also different than dungeon crawl. A dungeon crawl was a type of adventure in tabletop, while a dungeon crawler was a type of vidya RPG.

>>3919824
That depends entirely on what games you played and your ability to sift. In the late 90s, if you wanted to discuss a particular game, that was the place.

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>>3919824
GameFAQs was the best site online back in the late 90s and early 2000s. Best forums too.
>it was where all the most retarded kids posted.
One of many reasons it was great.

>>3919812
>People were using the term "dungeon crawler" years before Dungeon Master came out, so how could "dungeon crawler" possibly mean "Dungeon Master clone"?
And here is your major problem. We are talking about video games. And even then i mentioned oubliette.
And why are you using dungeon master clone of all things? Use wizardry as a better example.
>Can you really tell me with a straight face that Diablo is not about crawling through a dungeon?
So is Zelda and many other non rpg's. Dungeon crawler doesn't just mean there is a dungeon and you kill stuff, for fucks sake?
The genre was established in the 70's.
And yes, a isometric, solo character, procedurally generated with action elements game is exactly like a first person, party driven, non procedurally generated game with menu focused combat.

I finally figured you out. You don't even play these games. Just spout ai summarized facts.
You are telling me with a straight face that diablo has any semblance of wizardry/dungeon master/might and magic?
Just because there is a dungeon and you kill shit?
And you are still not mentioned roguelikes? I wonder why? Ai not good enough for that?

>>3919962
NTA but I have no idea why you are putting DM and W in the same basket
Considering we are on a vrpg board that is, I would assume games with such a different play styles would not be lumped together

>>3920008
Dungeon master and wizardry are the same genre?

>>3920012
Have you played them?
they play wildly differently

>>3920034
No they don't? They are both first person dungeon crawlers with a party focus. They both use menus for commands. The only major discussion is that dungeon master has a much more bigger puzzle focus.
And the dancing/realtime element feels more like atb then a proper real time system thanks to how slow the game is.

>>3920044
Not him, but you're an idiot.

>>3920045
Arguments please. Oh wait, you have none. So which genre is dungeon master then?
Let me guess, it is the dungeon master clone genre? Same as the diablo clone genre, right?
Jesus, this board is more retarded than v.
Play the fucking games and tell me that they are different genres. I know you won't. The average vrpg retard can't even play rogue let alone dungeon master.

>>3920046
I've ascended in Nethack multiple times. You should get off your high horse.
My conditions for similar sub-genre is would I recommend two games in the same breath. Like say someone really liked Wizardry 5, I wouldn't assume they would like Anvil of Dawn. The fact is that there isn't a good name for Dungeon Master clones, because there weren't enough made past a certain point. I would call them dungeon crawlers though, but you can also mention they are real time square dancers.

>>3920047
>Wizardry 5, I wouldn't assume they would like Anvil of Dawn
Why not? People who like fallout like baldur's gate because they are both crpg's.
>The fact is that there isn't a good name for Dungeon Master clones
It is called a dungeon crawler. You can have games within a subgenre with a different style of gameplay as long as the core is there.
Just look at Baldur's gate and fallout. Yes, real time vs turn based can be a deal breaker but the fundamental things of a crpg(exploration, character building,player choice, etc..) are still there.

>>3920048
CRPG just means computer RPG. Wizardry is a CRPG. Baldur's Gate is an isometric RTwP CRPG, or IE game, and Fallout is an isometric TB CRPG. What's the point of not giving clear information when talking about a games? We aren't trying to sell them here or lump things into a subreddit.

>>3920050
>CRPG just means computer RPG.
Actually means rpg's that are closest to tabletop in computer form and are a subgenre of rpg's. This is why the thing is listed are common across them.
Now notice how wizardry pretty much lacks sections of crpg things, because it is a different subgenre.
Fallout and wizardry play a lot different like each other. Same as eye of beholder and pathfinder.

It is the same thing as jrpg, it doesn't mean japanese, but a gameplay style.

>>3920051
>This is why the thing is listed are common across them
Meant "This is why the things i listed..."

>>3920051
>Actually means rpg's that are closest to tabletop in computer form and are a subgenre of rpg's
No it doesn't. It means computer RPG. There are some confused mutterings from certain sectors that cRPG means "classic RPG" and that dialogue trees and branched quests are closer to tabletop. Though questing and dialogue in BG1 and Fallout are p. different.
Eye of the Beholder and Might and Magic play different.
Fallout and Baldur's Gate play different.
There are people that like them both, there are also people that only like one or the other.

Again, there's no point in not being specific if you aren't trying to sell something. You've inherited a marketeer's mindset, that wants to spread a wider net to catch more fish. There's utterly no point to this an RPG player discussing things with other players. We should be trying to be clear about what games are and not looking for simplified labels and new acronyms.

>>3920054
>Again, there's no point in not being specific if you aren't trying to sell something.
His whole gimmick is conflating multiple definitions of the same term, even when one attempts to clarify and distinguish between them. In one argument with him a couple of months ago, I was even using numerical subscripts to distinguish between definitions, to clarify precisely was meant, and he was just pretending they weren't there. I think he either has some inability to read and comprehend words, or he just likes to argue.

>>3920054
>here are some confused mutterings from certain sectors that cRPG means "classic RPG" and that dialogue trees and branched quests are closer to tabletop
No, they aren't "confused mutterings" it's the natural evolution of language due to the practicality of having a term to distinguish games sharing those traits from the larger majority of videogame RPGs. You have to be pretty dumb to not get this.

Just because the other guy might be dumb, doesn't mean you aren't also a fucking idiot.

>>3920074
>His whole gimmick is conflating multiple definitions of the same term
Maybe, but the other faggot is pretending that multiple definitions cannot exist at all, which is a failure to understand how English works.

>>3920074
You literally used Ai for this? "numerical subscripts", seriously? You could at least prompt it to make it sound more natural.

>>3920082
>get called out for being a zoomer who wasn’t around decades ago, arguing with people who were about how it was
>no, you’re the zoomer!
>provide supporting evidence
>that doesn’t count!
>clarify terms used and distinguish between their different usages to help autistic anons successfully communicate meaning
>it’s uhh AI! All your posts are AI!
It’s so fucking tiresome. I genuinely thought you wouldn’t be a retard this time around. I shouldn’t have given you the benefit of the doubt.

>>3920087
It is AI. The way it is structured, the word used, it is all AI.
Now your latest post isn't AI(because there is no arguments), just wish you actually use your own arguments instead of using a AI.

>>3920089
You are literally dumb as fuck.

>>3920087
>clarify terms used and distinguish between their different usages to help autistic anons successfully communicate meaning
I liked diablo 2 man, care to recommend me some games like that?
Sure, there is Gothic 1 and 2, Deus ex, Revenant..
Wait a moment? None of those play like Diablo?
Here is a usenet post proving that they do and that they are in fact diablo clones.

You didn't think this through did you ?

>>3920090
Again with the AI. Just stop and have the mental capacity to at least insult me without using AI.

>>3920092
Your autism prevents you from successfully communicating with human beings.
>The term "ARPG" is confusingly used to refer to two distinct concepts: one, the broader usage of "action RPG" dates back to at least the 1980s, and refers to RPGs which include some real time or action elements where player skill and reflexes affect combat, rather than combat being purely turn-based number crunching
Let's call this definition "action RPG" or "ARPG_1"
>it is also used in a more modern context to refer to the specific sub-genre of Diablo clones. This second usage arose in the late 2000s.
Let's call this definition "ARPG_2"
>The original term for ARPG_2" was "Diablo clone", which was commonly used in the late 90s and early 2000s, before falling into disuse. Eventually, a new generation of players who weren't necessarily familiar with Diablo and Diablo 2 began calling this sub-genre ARPG_2s by the late 2000s, and this is the term commonly used for that sub-genre today.
I tried to make this plain as day for you.
>I liked diablo 2 man, care to recommend me some games like that?
Diablo 2 is an ARPG_2. You could also call it an ARPG_1, but that's broader and less useful for recommending you games that play similarly.
>Sure, there is Gothic 1 and 2, Deus ex, Revenant..
>Wait a moment? None of those play like Diablo?
Gothic and Deus Ex are ARPG_1s, not ARPG_2s.
>Here is a usenet post proving that they do and that they are in fact diablo clones.
I never said that ARPG_1s are "Diablo clones", although Diablo clones would also, more broadly, fall within the set of ARPG_1s. I said that ARPG_2s were originally called "Diablo clones".
>You didn't think this through did you?
Clearly more than you did.

so anyway, what options do i have If I want to scratch that wizardry 8 itch? Wizards & Warriors, MMIX, and that's it? I tried both and they were kind of meh, I really loved the fantasy party isekai'd into a scifi world aesthetic

>>3920102
>Let's call this definition "ARPG_2"
>"Diablo clone", which was commonly used in the late 90s and early 2000s,
You see that is the problem. This is not true in any way shape or form. Isometric arpg's were not a major thing minus diablo 1 and 2 for that era and there wasn't enough of them to even have "clone" status. Especially after consoles took over.
The best you can say is that it applies to sacred, which reviews noted.
Nox dungeon siege and divinity were noted as being different from diablo.

>>3920050
>>3920054
>CRPG just means computer RPG
it used to mean computer RPG when RPG used to mean a ttrpg by default
now it's the other way around, RPG = vidya RPG, and insisting on keeping 'C' = computer is pointless
best accept that most people who use the term CRPG mean "classic rpg" i.e. computer rpgs made in the style of a bygone era before every vidya rpg became some sort 3d action-adventure/rpg hybrid.

>>3920155
>This is not true in any way shape or form. Isometric arpg's were not a major thing minus diablo 1 and 2 for that era and there wasn't enough of them to even have "clone" status.
anon from >>3919504 here
>hexplore
>nox
>darkstone
>dungeon siege
>titan quest
>throne of darkness
>divine divinity
>BG dark alliance
>sacred
not all of those are from the top of my head, but most are

you simply don't know what you are talking about, stop being a stubborn ass

>>3920174
>most people who use the term CRPG mean "classic rpg"
No.

>>3920078
>the natural evolution of language
lmao this tired line. This is a specific subculture, growing out of the Black Isle forums onto RPG Codex and now here, that views it that way, talking about a specific set of games but using an old moniker that they aren't really familiar with. The fact is that you people don't know how to make yourselves clear, which is why you spend so much time arguing about semantics and talking past each other. You're a midwit repeating platitudes, thinking it wisdom.

Again, there's no point in not being specific when using language in a hobbyist setting.

>>3920174
Anon, you're supposed to use cRPG, little c, you can't even get the meme right.

>>3920198
In your schizo hallucinations I'm from the Black Isle forms and RPG Codex?
>Again, there's no point in not being specific when using language in a hobbyist setting.
Of course there is. People use terms casually and expect people will be able to follow along and not sperg out for no fucking reason if the exact precise meaning of term isn't super relevant to the conversation. The guy who started talking about crpg WAS specific in what he meant, but that didn't stop this retard (>>3920050) from not reading the whole post and immediately sperging out about what terms are supposed to mean, triggering this whole pointless, autistic digression.

The debate was supposed to be about whether Wizardry and Dungeon Master should count as the same genre and instead of figuring out the finer points of that distinction, you (and maybe others) won't stop REEEING about CRPG semantics.

>>3920218
>In your schizo hallucinations I'm from the Black Isle forms and RPG Codex?
No, your memes are.
>Of course there is. People use terms casually and expect people will be able to follow along
How's that working out? Are you going to cry about autistic nitpicking in a genre dominated by people prone to autistic nitpicking and classification? This whole "you are nerding wrong" shtick you have is just another layer of that same tendency, anon. You're a midwit who thinks they are seeing clearer.
>whether Wizardry and Dungeon Master should count as the same genre
They are both RPGs, anon. They both play very differently. If you need that difference explained, well, you must be a pedant.

>>3920203
gtfo and come back when you have anything of substance to say

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164.4 KB JPG

I wish there was some hidden gem that I haven't heard of before that's actually stupid good in this genre. I usually just replay shit I've already played a million times already.

"Diablo schizo schizo" anon, I feel like I was too harsh on you. I'm sorry. Let's circle back to our original disagreement:
The definition of "dungeon crawler" I'm using:
>a broad stylistic term that originated from tabletop games, and tabletop RPGs, to describe exploring a dungeon teeming with enemies, traps, and loot. It is not a specific sub-genre of games or clones of any particular titles, but a general descriptor. This term has been in use since the early 1980s at a minimum, likely since the 70s.
Let us call this "dungeon crawler_1"
The definition of "dungeon crawler" you use:
"a specific sub-genre of vidya RPGs, similar to Wizardry and its clones, Dungeon Master, etc"
Let us call this "dungeon crawler_2"
Diablo is a "dungeon crawler_1". Diablo is not a "dungeon crawler_2". Can we agree on this?

>>3920866
Which of the two categories does W&W pic related fall into for you? I think it's an underrated gem

>>3920917
It's alright, I guess. Kinda janky as opposed to wizardry 8 and M&M 8

>>3920911
why not just use a different word to describe "dungeon crawler_2"?
like blobber?

>>3920911
Problem with that is that dungeon_crawler_1 is a not a video game definition. It is a tabletop one.
You can classify both diablo and rogue into dungeon_crawler_1. But from a gameplay perspective they are not the same.
When talking about games on a game board you use video game genre definitions.

>>3921011
>Problem with that is that dungeon_crawler_1 is a not a video game definition. It is a tabletop one.
Video game RPGs descended directly from tabletop RPGs, were created by players of tabletop RPGs, often inherited much of the mechanics of tabletop RPGs, and so naturally, also inherited much of the terminology and vocabulary of tabletop RPGs. This isn't really surprising. Even the anon with whom I was originally arguing acknowledged that "hack 'n slash" was a valid broad stylistic descriptor inherited from tabletop, he just objected to the term "dungeon crawler" because he's used to using a newer and different definition of that term to refer to a specific sub-genre of video games.
>You can classify both diablo and rogue into dungeon_crawler_1. But from a gameplay perspective they are not the same.
Correct. It's a broad term, and does not refer to specific gameplay style or sub-genres.
>When talking about games on a game board you use video game genre definitions.
"Dungeon crawler" in the broad sense has been used to describe video games on the internet for 40+ years. If someone wants to redefine it in a more niche and specific sense, and then object to the original usage and deny that it exists, then that is their problem. The purpose of words is to communicate meaning and ideas. A reasonable person, accustomed to using the second definition but then seeing someone else using the first, would clarify, "by 'dungeon crawler', I mean [X subgenre]" and so on.
>>3920973
Good question. I usually see the terms "blobber" or "DRPG" used, both of which are less ambiguous because they don't have any other meanings.

>>3921098
>Video game RPGs descended directly from tabletop RPGs, were created by players of tabletop RPGs, often inherited much of the mechanics of tabletop RPGs, and so naturally, also inherited much of the terminology and vocabulary of tabletop RPGs. This isn't really surprising. Even the anon with whom I was originally arguing acknowledged that "hack 'n slash" was a valid broad stylistic descriptor inherited from tabletop, he just objected to the term "dungeon crawler" because he's used to using a newer and different definition of that term to refer to a specific sub-genre of video games.
Irrelevant for video games. Tabletop is a board game, not a video game.
>Correct. It's a broad term, and does not refer to specific gameplay style or sub-genres.
Therefore meaningless for video games.
>"Dungeon crawler" in the broad sense has been used to describe video games on the internet for 40+ years
How can you define anything with a classification that is based on such a broad sense? There Is a reason genres and subgenres exist.
And they aren't broad in their definition.
>The purpose of words is to communicate meaning and ideas
And the point of genres is to classify similar gameplay elements into one classification.

If you want to be pedantic, you can do this for every single genre. And again, the problem is that when you compare gameplay, your entire argument falls apart.

>>3921108
It seems to me that you’re starting from the unstated assumption that every useful descriptive term for a video game must be its specific genre or sub-genre. You appear to be exclusively focused on defining and categorizing things and putting them in neat little boxes, to the detriment of being able to discuss and describe them.

>>3921110
Nah, i am just not binary when it comes to classification. I don't see any value in being broad as possible and thus making any connecting gameplay element meaningless. Or being autistic enough to not classify specific games into the same genre/subgenre because they are different in non core stuff.
There Is a middle ground, you can have wiggle room for classification but the core of the genre/sub genre needs to be present.
And the classification can't be based on completely vague stuff like "you are crawling through a dungeon" or " hack and slash which is too vague ".

>>3919829
yeah, dungeon crawl comes from how you have to crawl, move slowly, through the dungeon to avoid traps and pick it clean. nothing to do with brit slang for bar hopping.