>>3913704
It's a first person point & click action adventure with RPG elements

>>3913704
It is real time thus not an RPG. Immersive Sims are a type of ARPG so probably that. Still it is pretty barebones in that department.

>>3913705
But it has shooting mechanics like in Half-Life 2

>>3913710
It's called having doom-like elements

>>3913711
Doom hasn't been relevant in 57 years.

>>3913704
its a good game

It's a first person action RPG
It's not like imsim elements are a real thing anyways. Spector just made it up because he needed a term for his simulation elements, but in my opinion, those are integrated as default in most rpgs

>>3913763
So every immersive sym just an RPG then?
Thief is an RPG?

>>3913707
Holy autism

>>3913770
Thief is a stealth game
Imsim is not a thing besides people extrapolating having "paths you can either push a box or lockpick to open"

>>3913704
it's a hack n slash first person shooter
not an rpg and immersive sims aren't real

whats with the brainlet's hyperfixation on categorization?

>>3913815
A hack n slash where the melee option is worse than guns?

>>3913867
“hack n slash” just means a combat focused game with little plot and irrelevant characters
You’re being baited

>>3913779
Thief was designed with the "problems, not puzzles" philosophy in mind where they are a lot of basic rules for everything that interact with each other, sometimes in unanticipated ways.
Boodlines doesn't have any of this.

Bloodlines is not an 0451 game.

>>3913926
Why not?

>>3914318
Because you touch yourself at night

>>3914350
That's projection.

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>>3913704
Well it isn't an immersive sim... like at all. So RPG it is (maybe FPS-RPG specifically? I don't fucking know.) Immersive sims are the old Looking Glass studios games from the 90s like Ultima Underworld, System Shock and Thief (and then other games that followed that design path after Looking Glass went broke like Deus Ex, Dishonored and Prey.) And yes, the name is shitty and everyone hates it (it should've really been Looking Glass-like or something I dunno) but it's the name that stuck so what can you do?

VTMB isn't from that line - at all. It's actually a Troika game and continues on from Arcanum/Fallout but started their transition from Isometric to full, first person 3D (which then went nowhere cause Troika almost immediately went out of business after publishing it.) VTMB does somewhat superficially resemble Deus Ex but not its immersive sim elements, there's some confusion because people think the term 'immersive sim' was created to describe Deus Ex - it wasn't, it dates back to Ultima Underworld from 1992.

And besides the real test of immersive sims tends to be (semi) realistic, systems-driven emergent behavior and VTMB doesn't really do that, at all. Pretty much every problem that isn't solved by shooting is a dialogue option that the devs pre-programmed OR a dialogue option being unlocked from a skill check which is an RPG mechanic AND pre-programmed by the devs and not emergent behavior from the game's systems interacting in unexpected ways

>>3914361
You got 10 seconds to beat it before I add you to the list of Sabbat casualties.

>>3914367
Have sex, incel.

>>3914374
My bad, I forgot this was a bot site now.

>>3914318
>Why not?
1. Because the first keypad code of the game isn’t 0451.
2. See anons thorough post here: >>3914366

>>3914398
>Because the first keypad code of the game isn’t 0451.
Only retarded troons care about that though.
What the other anon said matters more.

>>3914429
>>Because the first keypad code of the game isn’t 0451.
>Only retarded troons care about that though.
It’s funny that this was your response, given that I was making an argument by definition. A game that does not use the 0451 homage cannot be an 0451 homage game by definition, much as if I had said “a man cannot be a woman by definition”

>>3914491
Oh okay so I guess Thief is not an immersive sym because it doesn't have keypads and 0451 in it as a code.

>>3914506
The developers had to key in 0451 to come to work each day. also, thief 2 does use 0451 as a lock code

>>3913763
they are default now, they weren't back in the early 00's when he coined the term.

>>3914548
They're still not default given that Obsidian and inXile games don't have them. They still do things their way.

>>3913704
Neither, could barely even be called a video game really.

There's not really a lot of roleplaying in it other than just picking your ending and deciding to do quests or not, and the depth to builds is basically pick only two between melee, guns, and disciplines if you want the game to be easy (unless you carefully manage your exp and you can get them all).
I'd still call it an RPG, but it's not a strong example of one since there's a lot of other genre's elements at play. It's just a good game in general.

>>3915041
>you go around talking to NPCs, killing people, and either doing the side-quest or skipping them until you finish the game, meta knowledge and cheese trivialize the combat
Isn't that every RPG ever?

>>3915041
>There's not really a lot of roleplaying in it other than just picking your ending and deciding to do quests or not, and the depth to builds is basically pick only two between melee, guns, and disciplines if you want the game to be easy (unless you carefully manage your exp and you can get them all).
But enough about Deus Ex.

>>3914374
>it hurt itself in its confusion

>>3913704
Imsim/RPG hybrid.

fuck im installing it

>>3913704
I'm ambivalent about the immersive sim term but I don't understand why people keep calling vtmb one. You can't move around shit to climb over walls or blow up doors or whatever so no it's not an 'immersive sim' - if anything, Arcanum has more of that kind of stuff, but it isn't first person I guess

>>3916642
It's zoomers.

I just came here to say that Ventrue are the best clan and LaCroix has given so many people a poor idea of what they're actually like.

>>3916642
>I don't understand why people keep calling vtmb one.
It would be pure cope to make VTMB seem more than it is

But I don't see people calling it an immersive sim

>>3916909
>But I don't see people calling it an immersive sim
I do a lot - just google 'immersive sim games' or whatever and it'd pop up too much

>>3916909
I get it though, VtMB is special because of how many options you get but it's not really an imsim. Imsim is more like few options but strong interactability while VtMB is like no interactions, high options as everything is hard coded.

>>3916916
Surely I can find a redditor calling any first person with RPG elements game an immersive sim, probably because it's an incredibly small "genre" and the "fan community" needs any game they can get

Looking at wikipedia page on immersive sims not mentioning VTMB leads me to believe it's not a widely held view, and I can't bother to argue against a view that's held by a handful of people

>>3916931
Alright? I've seen it a lot around here and elsewhere and so my whinge is directed that those people, but you haven't seen it, so I don't see what's there to discuss

>>3916926
"Immersive sim" is a fake genre, a vapid marketing term that doesn't mean anything. Like "roguelite".

Larian DOS1/2 and BG3 are closer to imsim design philosophy than VTMB is. Just because VTMB is a first person action RPG doesn't make it an imsim.

>>3917000
Oblivion is more of an immersive sim than vtmb but that doesn't fit the narrative

>>3917003
I mean a lot of this shit about rigid RPG definitions can be traced down to butthurt over Oblivion and Skyrim so it probably has some place in the narrative

>>3917000
BG3 is railroaded to all hell and frequently ignores or disrespects player choice, what are you talking about? Aside from being able to push people off cliffs. Everything’s hardcoded.

>>3917061
Like Bethesda's and Tim Cain's RPGs, it has immersive sim elements without fully leaning into it.

>>3917183
nta but I have increasing issues with the term since what a good rpg sounds like also sounds exactly like a good immersive sim. As you add more ways for your character to interact with the world, so a strong character being able to bash doors or move heavy objects, or a caster character using spells to change the properties of those objects, it gets hard to differentiate the two
I guess if anything an 'immersive sim' is how you describe a game that has those things but is actually less of an rpg. So that's why System Shock 1 counts, but 2 far less so

>>3917198
I think you should stop thinking simulation as a genre.

>>3917244
Obviously simulation itself isn't a genre and that's fine but almost everyone treats 'immersive sim' as a distinct genre

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>>3913704
Its not.

>>3917399
Invisible War isn't great but it's far better as an immersive sim than Bioshock Infinite

Try not to take this too hard, redditors, but.. That super cool niche genre you can't define? It's actually just ARPG. Yes, the most popular and mainstream genre.
>Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss is a 1992 action role-playing game
>System Shock 2 is a 1999 action role-playing survival horror video game
>Deus Ex is a 2000 action role-playing game
>Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines is a 2004 action role-playing video game

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>>3917512
Ah yes, Thief: The Dark Project. My favorite action-RPG

>>3917544
>Thief: The Dark Project is a 1998 stealth video game

>>3917550
Yes? But it's not an ARPG, which is what you were (incorrectly) claiming immersive sims actually are. I mean, Thief's a stealth game and practically the DEFINITION of an immersive sim but it's got no RPG elements whatsoever. So you're just wrong.

Oh and VTMB isn't an immersive sim, I thought we covered that already?

>>3917553
>practically the DEFINITION of an immersive sim
So what's the definition?

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>>3917554
Uh yeah, sure. Here it is. This was written sometime in late 1996-early 1997 by the Thief team. This is the long version though, I'll post the short version in a sec if you can't be bothered reading all that. I know it says the "Looking Glass' immersive REALITY philosophy" rather than 'immersive SIMULATION' but it's the same fucking thing.

Also note they specifically talk about how the games they're making AREN'T crpgs. Plus I'm pretty sure Diablo had only JUST come out at this point so ARPGs weren't really a genre yet.

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>>3917560
Oh sorry I posted the short version first instead of the long version. Here's the long version if you want a more thorough definition. Again this is from Looking Glass themselves so, y'know, it's the actual, REAL definition rather than some nonsense.

Turns out the real definition has been on the internet for almost 30 years, it's just that no one bothered to check Looking Glass's old website lol.

>>3917560
>>3917561
So if I had to put it concisely, this would be something like
>allows solutions that are not specifically scripted for a given problem
Does this sound agreeable enough?

>>3917574
Yeah sure, that's close enough. Systems-driven emergent gameplay is another way of putting it. But anyway, VTMB doesn't really do that, at all, hence why it's not an immersive sim.

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>>3917574
>>3917578
Although it's worth going into HOW Looking Glass specifically tried to achieve this effect, because specificity is important. Plenty of other games have had emergent behavior in them (that's bound to happen in any computer program once it reaches a certain level of complexity) it's how Looking Glass designed for it that's important. So just to highlight one sentence from the Manifesto:
>These systems include things like the physics simulation and player movement, combat, magic, and skills, and our "Act/React" concept of object interaction.

So Act/React is this system Looking Glass designed for Thief that handles all its object interactions. It's basically what we'd call an Entity Component System these days a good decade before Entity Component Systems were a thing in games. It's also basically what the Chemistry Engine in the new Zelda games is but here it is 20 years earlier in a game that came out within the same month as Ocarina of Time. In fact as far as anyone can tell Thief is the very first game programmed with an object system structured like this so it's genuine pioneering work.

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>>3917583
So just for a quick example: you can blow open locked wooden doors in Thief:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt128epD5GI

The doors don't blow up like in Deus Ex but it still works all the same. But hey, plenty of other games have had destructible doors before and after Thief, what makes Thief so special? Well it's because the way it works in Thief is that fire damages wood - and that applies to all fire sources (fire arrows, mines, fire elementals, torches etc. are all tagged with Source:FireStim) and all wooden surfaces will take damage from fire (every single Wood texture have the property Receptron:FireStim - TakeDamage in them as that's attached to the entire Wood textures class - WoodTex - so all wood textures inherit it.) However it order to take damage said wooden texture needs to be attached to an object with hit points (which is admittedly still kinda video-gamey but hey, 1998) like for example: a door. So in other words the reason why you can blow up locked wooden doors in Thief isn't because the designers decided to make that specific door breakable, it's because they started out by universally making fire burn wood. And it's not just doors, anything wooden in Thief will take damage from anything on fire (if said object has hit points/can be destroyed that is.)

To be clear: there's no fire simulation going on in Thief where fire spreads or anything - it's a game from 1998, you wouldn't really see that kind of thing until Far Cry 2 a full decade later. But there is something of an actual simulation going on in Thief (somewhat - at least as best as they could do back in 1998.) And it's not just the 'fire burning wood' system, that's just one example. The entire object system is like this - every single object interaction works this way in Thief's world.

Anyway that's the basic idea of what immersive simulation's supposed to be. Hope that helps.

>>3917583
>>3917586
It's really refreshing to see an effortpost that goes into this much detail. It's posts like these that keep me returning to this shithole, occasionally there's something like this around here.

>>3917591
I swear I ranted about this very system before on here years ago. In fact iirc it was the exact same thread topic where OP was asking whether or not VTMB is an immersive sim or not. I feel like I'm in fucking groundhog day whenever I come to this place.

Anyway yeah, that's what immersive simulation's ACTUALLY supposed to be. I get the confusion though - a lot of stuff written on the internet about immersive sims is just plain wrong. It's one of those situations where the Wikipedia article is crap cause it's citing shitty Youtube video essays and bad games journalism only for said Wikipedia article to then be used as a source for more bad Youtube essays and games journalism. I swear Wikipedia's rubbish.

You have to do a bit of digging to find the REAL information on immersive sims on the internet but it is out there. Looking Glass were super open about what their design philosophy was and how they were implementing it on a technical level. You just have to dig for it on the wayback machine or on old UseNet posts back when Looking Glass still existed.

>>3917583
>>3917586
That's an interesting look under the hood.

I think the important point is consistency in logic across all possible scenarios, right?

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>>3917595
Yeah like here. This is Marc "MAHK" LeBlanc, the dev from Looking Glass who created and implemented the Act/React system (in addition to Thief's entire object system) and who co-wrote that manifesto above, talking about how Thief is more simulation-like than something like Metal Gear Solid on Usenet back in 1998.

See how that's a well-worded, detailed response by one of the game devs about why Thief's a simulation? There's tons of examples like this from the 90s where LGS devs just plainly explained wtf immersive simulation(/reality) was, it's just that it's now all rather hard to find because, y'know, good luck finding posts from the 90s using Google these days.

>>3917583
>>3917586
>>3917608
I would almost have posted screens of the manifesto myself but here we go. I didn't really know about the stimuli system to this degree, these are some amazing insights. Thanks Anon.
Been listening to the Looking Glass Interview series on youtube recently and found it a bit of a shame that the interviewer didn't really go into depth about audio with Eric Brosius, just asking stuff like "What was the hardest sound you made?" Would really have liked to hear something about how he actually made the sounds, what were some really weird things he used and such, sound designers always have wild and funny stories if you ask them. Guess I should have a look on ttlg. I'm also curious how the sound engine works.
MAHK has a full System Shock Remake playthrough up on youtube where he's telling old stories from Looking Glass, how and why they did things, that's another more recent source of knowledge for me.

>>3918278
>interviewer didn't really go into depth about audio with Eric Brosius, just asking stuff like "What was the hardest sound you made?"
Uhhh probably tungsten carbide hitting diamond

no one cares. it's fun and we like playing it

>>3917586
Are you the anon that proved that you can make Flappy Bird in Thief using the Act/React system?

>>3913704
You just had this thread two days ago.

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>>3921413
It's the same thread. This board is s l o w