I already fought the tarrasque. He was the hero ultralisk in the campaign editor for Starcraft 1.
Guy Montag was the hero firebat, btw. Thus, Starcraft was an 0451 game. Q.E.D.

>>3914760
>Daily reminder that because tabletop players are massively butthurt over epic levels
don't pretend for one second you like the endless pile of feature bloat that comes with high level D&D

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>>3914768

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Could you defeat Hellmaster Phibrizzo?

>>3914778
so? you have to communicate your point, anon, despite what the voices in your head tell you we can't read your thoughts
seriously what's up with the average board IQ is so low lately?

also why start with a screenshot from AD&D 1e MM then follow up with a AD&D 2e screenshot
Also why reply to someone who is obviously talking about modern D&D with a AD&D 2e screenshot?

You get to fight Mephistopheles and other Demigods in many of them

>>3914785
>male

>>3914760
I look like this

>Move:9 inches

wut

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>>3914830
9 inches inside you, that is

>>3914760
Daily reminder that D&D over 6th level is a fucking mess. Sure all D&D is garbage but over 6th level it is 100% trash.

>>3914830
Early D&D assumed everyone would be using the same scale for figurines and battlemaps, 2e onwards abstracted it into game world distances. Do remember, D&D is an offshoot of a miniatures wargame called Chainmail and wargames require everyone to be the same scale.

>>3914813
>seriously what's up with the average board IQ is so low lately?
I was agreeing with you and providing historical evidence to support your assertion (implying that muh heckin EPIC LEVELS were an aberration that started in 3rd edition, and in the original editions, players and DMs were expected to be wise enough to know when it was time to move on and start over, instead of bloatmaxxing their characters and campaigns), but apparently you were too stupid to infer meaning through context.

There's been more than a few epic level campaigns in major DnD games, hasn't there? No idea why they never use Tarrasque.
I don't think Vecna has really been adapted as something people fight for a long time, but maybe I'm wrong. No intention to check.
You do fight Asmodeus' essentially next in line in that one NWN campaign

>>3914919
It kinda falls apart in your example though, because video games aren't based on using recurring characters in multiple campaigns. You can easily do video games that get to a high level because it doesn't get stale as it's all one campaign and then done.

>>3914760
Because all levelling systems break down at some point.
Levelling is retarded. People don't have levels.

>>3915157
>t. Level 1 for life

>>3915164
It's funny, I keep asking random strangers at the pub what level they are, and they just look at me blankly.

>>3915187
Those ones are NPCs, they dont have levels and their response system only works for fixed conversations, you have to find a main character to get it

>>3915157
Every system breaks down if you get the numbers high enough.

>>3914835
>D&D over 6th level is a fucking mess
There's a reason why almost every class got followers and responsibilities (and maybe a fortress/temple/base) around levels 8-10 in AD&D. It's time to (semi)retire your character.

>>3914760
Mask of the Betrayer? Hordes of the Underdark?

>>3914835
Only 3.5 (I guess pathfinder too by extension) had things that truly went to shit as levels went up due to how things like attack, typical enemy strength scores, AC, touch AC, etc tended to scale completely out of wack. The spell list will completely trivialize non-combat encounters at a certain point as well, but that's a little outside the scope of problems that make it into vidya

>>3914760
you fight demogorgon in baldurs gate 2, as well as the evil elemental lords
and in temple of elemental evil you fight zgtumoy or whatever her name is

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>>3915275
Yup.

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>>3914919
let's see if you pick up this context

>>3915285
3ed brought all the stat bloat. IMO it's specially awful in the HP bloat, even at "mid" level combat becomes a slog.

Is OP baiting or just stupid?

>>3915300
>and in temple of elemental evil you fight zgtumoy or whatever her name is
Iuz also appears there, and St. Cuthbert (you can fight his avatars only with mods tho)

>>3915373
It's not that bad if you actually roll for hit dice instead of maximizing them like a retard.

>>3915373
I wasn't really considering 3.0 and 3.5 separately. It was all changes that happened at the start of 3rd ed itself.
>>3915513
It's the con modifier that ends up making it a huge number. I think a lot of people just took the average instead of rolling, but I don't know about maximizing. One house rule my group started to use near the end of when we were playing 3.5 was to just reroll hit dice for basically every time it's a new dungeon/similar since it was kind of the fun alternative to being stuck with a shit roll or everyone just picking averages.

>>3915211
When even let the numbers go that high?
There are better reward systems than "number has gone up."

>>3916054
If you want 3rd ed with checks in place to keep the numbers grounded, it's called 5e.

>>3916062
>here, take the same standard array of stats as everyone else and then apply them optimally to your chosen class! Rolling might not be equitable
>no feats by default (“optional rule”)
>feats compete with stat increases
>most feats are garbage and not worth taking except for niche builds
>everyone just pumps their “damage stat” until it’s 20. Cookie cutter builds
>we didn’t like how players could stack the odds in their favor, so instead we replaced number stacking with fucking squaring the probabilities because we are retarded
>btw there’s no more alignments because the concept of objective morality might make people feel bad
>also you don’t need a deity as a paladin to receive your holy powers because that’s not very inclusive
I hate 5th ed so much. The most retarded and dumbed down edition of DnD ever. Game should have stopped at 2nd edition.

>>3914760
Good. Devs can’t write high level adventure and due to having give content they end with
>hey dirtbag (level 25 demigod) I need you to kill 5 rats (infernal) in basement of my heavenly tavern

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>>3916245

I can fight 2 Vecnas in Dead by Daylight

>>3915047
>No idea why they never use Tarrasque.
It can't be defeated without figuring out some cheese that doesn't work in a video game. Like casting Control Undead on an allip, having it drain its wisdom then getting a few dozen peasants to shovel dirt into its throat while it's unconscious so it suffocates.

>>3916318
You just need to slap his shit and cast a laundry list of spells.

>>3914760
>armor class: -3
Decreasing armor class is the dumbest idea to have ever blundered into dnd. Shit stuck around like a bad smell

>>3916577
>Decreasing armor class is the dumbest idea to have ever blundered into dnd.
It came from tabletop naval wargames, where the strongest armor possible was the biggest heaviest ship, a ship of the line first class. The second-best armor was a ship of the line second class, and so on. AC1, AC2, etc. Hence, the lower AC, the better. THAC0 was an abstraction to simplify tabletop dice math. Players of the era were expected to understand the historical context of why this was. Negative AC and THAC0 haven't even been a thing for longer than most of this board has been alive, I don't understand why you still have strong feelings about it.

>>3916587
>Negative AC and THAC0 haven't even been a thing for longer than most of this board has been alive
You've never encountered OSRfags, huh. They're still clinging to that shit and will scream that you're just too dumb to get it if you say ascending AC is better.

>>3916600
can you please go back to /tg/?
thanks.

>>3916600
I never played RuneScape, so no, I have not had that pleasure. I agree that positive AC makes more sense, but I understand the historical reason for why things were the way they were, and don’t mind the old ways. It probably helps I played a little 2nd edition tabletop and cRPGs before 3rd edition came out. My gut is that a lot of the complaints came from younger players whose first experience was the BG “enhanced editions” and such

>>3916610
this guy doesn't even play vidya or know anything about crpgs, he's trying to provoke a decrepit tabletop debate here because he thinks posting tangentially to the boards purpose is the bee's knees. he's basically a reverse janny.

>>3915157
>>3915285
I like Arduin because it has a lot of 3.5's emphasis on having stats for everything, but levels don't linearly multiply your hit points (although some class features give you a flat modifier of +5 hp once), your HP is just based on your race's starting HP. This also means that monsters have HP based on their size/type, not based on how powerful they are, and there are monsters which are extremely deadly despite having low HP. Generally, adding more simulationism solves "game balance" issues, and bad balance is mostly a forced error which you impose on yourself by making your game overly level-scaled or giving the players plot armor (if a critical hit always has the chance to kill/maim you, you can't focus as much on making a "build", but you focus a lot more on making good decisions).

>>3914760
There is a tarrasque in Dominions, but that's a wargame. Fear and Hunger was partially inspired by one of the creator's D&D games, and you can fight gods in it, and the game doesn't have leveling issues because all progression is exploration-based rather than grinding-based (and often, fighting monsters is a bad decision)

>>3916200
Don't forget that in 5e (although this started in 4e) you can't trivially customize a monster's stats by modifying it's equipment, or give class levels to a monster, because there are no rules for doing so except in 3e. In 5e, monsters just deal as much damage as the creator wanted them to deal (rather than damage based on their weapon), overuse elemental damage on held weapon attacks, and never have class levels, just a list of spells and what level the spells are cast at (or recently, just the spell itself as an attack).

>>3916245
kek
It also goes the opposite way a lot, where every random cave ends up being full of Pit Fiends and all the NPC wizards you meet somehow know how to cast level 9 spells without even bothering to handwave it with a Henderson-tier backstory.

>>3914760
go make a nwn campaign if you want this, you could fight all 3 at the same time even

they'd be fodder really at level 40 tho

>>3916774
Vecna probably wouldn't be that different from fighting a demi-lich.
Tarrasque is honestly just a melee threat that can't really do anything other than make attack rolls and some gimmick eating people thing (finishing it off just requires a plot device by design. By default I think it asks for the miracle spell in 3rd ed presumably as some sort of Saint Martha reference). He might actually only have DR epic or +6 in that ruleset (so basically something easily achieve in NWN), but I don't remember.
I assume the stat block for Asmodeus wouldn't be THAT different from the other archeduke of hell you can fight, but he is the strongest one

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>>3916836
>Vecna probably wouldn't be that different from fighting a demi-lich.
Yeeeh about that, stat block from 3.5 (close enough to NWN's 3.0)

>>3916900
If you actually use deities and demigods mechanics it's basically impossible to beat any of the gods without divine rank of your own.

>>3916903
which you know, kind of the point
epic level adventurers aren't meant to fight actual Gods, they'd eat shit against someone like Vecna or god forbid Asmodeus and a battle like that only lasts as long as either thinks the attempt is entertaining or cute

Tarrasque is nowhere near on the level of both, epic level adventurers absolutely could take one on, hell it would be real funny if someone cast Nailed to the Sky on the Tarrasque

>>3916904
In Vecna's case I assumed anyone who wanted to use him would be after more of a "Die Vecna Die" sort of context where it would be an avatar or something. Actually fighting a god in their fullest would be a clusterfuck if you actually took characters to their limit.
As for Asmodeus I'm pretty sure he only has some low divine rank like 1, which is just like maximized HD and a couple immunities iirc. Even the strongest devils and demons don't have shit on gods. He's statted out in some 3.5 book with a bunch of devil shit that I no longer have handy (fiendish codex maybe?)

>>3916907
at the bottom of the stat block there is a stat block for an avatar of Vecna which is a lv 25 Archlich
still has a bunch of abilities that do not make them trivial at all to fight even for epic level characters

even in NWN context, mastery of counterspelling would be a royal PITA to deal with, same with spontaneous wizard spells given they still have 2 epic level spells they can cast

problem course with representing Vecna and well, just about any epic wizard in a videogame, is that you can't exactly represent that the minute you set eyes on them 50 different contingencies trigger and in all likelyhood you're now tasked with dragging them out of their personal demiplane from which they're in full scry and die mode on you

>>3916600
>OSR
thac0 wasn't even the default way of calculating to hit prior to 2e, and 2e is arguably the least popular old-school edition
all editions before that defaulted to attack matrices, a table DM had to consult every to-hit roll
THAC0 unironically made things much easier but still if there is one single good thing 3e did it was ascending AC
PS
a lot of OSR retroclones do ascending AC as an optional rule at the very least

>>3916900
>Greater Teleport at will
Almost every demon and devil has this, and it breaks the game if you play them at their full intelligence. For example, sieges (actual attrition sieges, not break-ins) would be impossible if the besieged force has control of a fiend (for example, a succubus) who can teleport out and teleport back in, bringing in 50 pounds of objects every 12 seconds. And also, unless you kill the fiend in a surprise attack or stop it from casting spells, it can teleport away after the first round of combat. I really like 3.5e's mechanics and crunch, but I don't like how it expects the players to have magic items and specific spells or else some fights are impossible.

yeah, this thread is total /tg/ retardation, huh?
like, how can you guys say you roleplay for fun, you can't even create new topics to discuss.

>>3917189
what is wrong exactly with discussing rpg systems on a boards dedicated to vrpgs?
if you feel like you are excluded I say we are on the right track

>>3917353
>what is wrong with discussing tabletop on a vidya board when a tabletop board exists
herp derp

>>3916900
>80AC
>SR107
lol wtf?
you'd need a real minmax build to take out this guy solo i guess

>>3917463
Well it's CR 63, so if you're a level anywhere near 63 (or equivalent with templates and divine rank and shit) it's probably not that insurmountable.
Nobody actually does that shit though. It's just a thought experiment gone wild like The Immortals Handbook

>>3916900
>80 AC
>25 DR
>SR107
>Divine Shield 14/day for 100 damage
I don't think even an army of archers fishing for crits could take him down before he casts a 40DC Weird and kills them all

>>3917468
i just meant if you put him in nwn it'd be rough. those numbers are just too big for that game(low bab/ab caps). still maybe could with a crazy specific build and a lot of time stop cheese but that's basically cheating anyway.

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>>3917483
nta
I finished a playthrough of Aielund recently where my own guys had AC in the mid 60s when buffed up around level 37. I haven't got a hard save at the end with their final numbers but here's an unbuffed Robert Black at level 34 from a save where I thought I might brick my playthrough.
He's got a +7 bastard sword and NWN's internal enchantment limit is +20, so it's theoretically possible to get enough attack bonus to hit an 80AC enemy on a roll of 16-20 if you were playing a module with absolute god tier items, 20 levels of full bab and attack-boosting feats.
You'd still die to a DC40 Weird in the first round, but it's theoretically possible to hit him in a module designed for that.

>>3917496
It really comes down to items. A fighter that has level appropriate strength boosting, enhancement bonus on weapons, only leveled strength and maybe some inherent bonus bullshit as well gets pretty up there. Epic levels only give 1/2 BAB, but when levels reach shit like 40 that's still quite a bit as well.
The attack stat so absurdly outpaces AC in that system normally that I suspect it would be the least of a theoretical Vecna encounter's problems.

>>3917502
even my weapon master minion from swordflight barely got +60 with song, +12str from gear and like 5 extra ab from epic wm feats.
you'd probably need to go beyond +10 weapons for any normal builds to hit reliably and probably won't ever with the the -10 or -15

and he has over a thousand hp and is immune to everything