>>3917711
enough to understand the reasoning for the underlying mechanics and procedure, and the reasons that versions changed as they did

Ideally none. Trying to replicate a system that is trying to replicate real life when your platform is much better equipped to do that is just counterproductive. Stop making computer tabletop adaptations and start making role playing GAMES.

>>3917734
What's your favorite vidya RPG? For context.

>>3917738
Deus Ex probably.

>>3917711
None

>>3917740
>my favorite RPG is a hybrid
So you don't like RPGs.

>>3917743
*computer tabletop adaptations

>>3917711
None

>>3917745
Define vidya RPG, exempting all elements of tabletop RPGs.
Then define FPS.
Then define stealth games.
Then define adventure games.

>>3917743
Ironic given Deus Ex is closer to a tabletop RPG than most RPGs

>>3917748
No.

>>3917752
No, it's not ironic and that's not accurate.
Gameplay doesn't matter, huh? It's literally a first person shooter and stealth game with RPG and adventure game elements. Why are you trying to turn other vidya genres into hallmarks of an RPG? Do you think the acronym RPG is cooler than FPS?

>>3917755
I accept your concession. You cannot separate RPGs from their tabletop roots.

>>3917711
Dragonlance is one word. Fake fan! Fake Fan!
I know it's just whoever did the subtitles.

>>3917756
The hallmark of tabletop RPGs is the range of actions you can perform, within an RPG framework. A key characteristic of Deus Ex is the range of actions you can perform, within an RPG framework.

>>3917763
>perform actions with a framework
Vague as to be meaningless. Applicable to all games.
>RPG framework
You have to define this.

In Deus Ex you can perform a range of actions (running, strafing, shooting, aiming, jumping, engaging with enemies all with a FP perspective) within an FPS framework. This is a true statement.

>>3917766
If you're going to quote me, quote what I actually said instead of being dishonest
THE RANGE of actions, if you've ever actually played a pen and paper tabletop RPG that should require no further explanation. You've played one before, right?

>>3917774
>within an RPG framework
Still avoiding that, huh?

>>3917775
RPG system
It's tedious defining all these extremely obvious terms, you clearly have either no relevant knowledge or no interest in actual discussion

>>3917777
>slap dicerolls and cyoa elements on a game and it's an RPG
I accept your concession. Now, continue posturing and projecting when you are transparent.

>>3917711

>Starts out showing D&D books presumably with the intention of make some sort of point
>Gets completely sidetracked about what he was talking about and starts flexing real hard

That seems about the right amount...

>>3917817
>flexing
i pity zoomers and their overly self-conscious social media addictions.

>>3917711
The less, the better. Ideally zero.

>>3917835
You think "flex" is a new term?

>>3917711
None. Video games and tabletop games are two completely different things.
This is like asking how much experience as a baseball player should someone have before becoming a football coach

>>3917711
I'd rather they have none than only have D&D experience, but having experience with ANY other system would be a plus.

Having experience in tabletop games is a baseline for game development, to some degree the more you have the better.
The thing is, regardless of how much knowledge you have it doesn't particularly matter if you can't understand the needs of different media, tabletop rules and other design conventions do not necessarily apply to videogames, a lot of that stuff can't be applied to videogames and the more dogmatic you are about it the worse it gets.
The more important thing is understanding the nature and necessities of the medium you're working with and what you're trying to do with that, Kawazu has vast knowledge of oldschool tabletop but he's always been aware of the necessities of the videogame format, which is why as much as he does love AD&D in particular he never tried to make a 1:1 adaptation, instead he broke tabletop design elements down to their basic ideas and then designed around those, often hybridizing them with things from other systems like Runequest in the process and adding some novel ideas on top.

>>3917853
no i think viewing everything as a performance is a natural phenomenon of excessive self-conscious about social media attention seeking. do you think zoomerishness is new? it's been years, bro.

>>3917897
It's a video presentation, it's a literal performance

>>3917899
read this post
>>3917817

>>3917711
Not really a requirement.
Zero is fine.
Like if you had a cultural blank of a person who could design games, you wouldn't have them play dungeons and dragons 5e first to get started.
There are certainly things you could learn from table top, but there so many wrong things you could pick up that you're gonna have to unlearn.
Video games have very different limitations compared to table top.

For example if you think an rpg has to be turn based, your brain is already so scrambled by table top that you might be beyond reason.

The question might make more sense if this was the 80s or early 90s.
If I wanna design monsters for an rpg today, I have an immense library of information to draw from at my computer.
In the 80s you'd have to be spending more hours than you can spare at the library to catch up, or a secondary source like Fiend's Folio could give you almost everything you need.

>>3917817
He just wanted to share his cool old books, anon.
Jesus

>>3917756
>It's literally a first person shooter and stealth game with RPG and adventure game elements
Do you have a single fact to back that up?

>>3917711
>JRPG dev
>favorite adventures are Dragonlance
it all makes sense now

>>3917752
you wouldn't have come to that ridiculous conclusion would you have played a single table-top rpg session

>>3917711
which role though?
>developer
none
>artist
none
>writer
GMing and coming up with your own adventures is pretty much doing the same job, so it's a big plus
>level designer
the same as for writers for top-down games, half the job in 3d games
>systems designer
should have experience in a lot of systems old-school, modern, narrativist, gamist, whatever the more the better

thanks for joining my TED talk

>>3917734
>>3917742
This.

The only good idea to be taken from tabletop is Vancian casting, which is far more interesting than mana, but that completely breaks if you have the ability to reload and re-allocate your abilities for an encounter you now have foreknowledge of, so it only works as a "test of general preperation" for fundamentally one off or randomized things like rogue-likes unless you accept that reassigning spells until they're optimized for each thing you face is the actual point.

CRPGs should have moved as far away from tabletop games as they could as soon as possible in order to focus on their strengths. Ultima and its derivatives sort of went down that path, but for whatever reason devs decided that chasing after a simulation of tabletop was some ideal to be striven for. Computer RPGs just do not let you improvise 'roleplay', so they should have dropped the fake vestiges that pretend to do this and full on focused on making simulated worlds in ways a DM never would.

>>3918251
Deus ex is an immersive sim, which is the closest video games get to tabletop. Prove me wrong

>>3918274
why don't you actually play some ttrpgs, prove yourself wrong and save us the time?

tldr;
what ttrpgs are best at and why they are still somewhat popular apart from people craving socialization is imo the sheer unpredictability of non-complete rules and open narrative
the freedom that comes with a good GM who can adapt to your narrative choices on the fly, and make consistent rulings for creative solutions you come up with on the spot is simply intoxicating
no vidya comes close
it's still just scripted reactions, there might be multiple pre-designed ways of doing something
it's still just a pool of a handful of scripted reactions

>>3918274
>Deus ex is an immersive sim, which is the closest video games get to tabletop.
Rhetoric. And you believe it?

File: fft-bmg-rawstats.png (157.8 KB)

157.8 KB PNG

>>3917734
>Stop making computer tabletop adaptations and start making role playing GAMES
Yeah, key word being "games" not "sims." Simulation isn't the ultimate goal of an RPG, it's just a partial element.

>>3917738
NTA because you're mostly right in your criticism of that guy, but for the sake or argument I'll say I agree with him that tabletop influence is overrated and for my favorite RPG: Final Fantasy Tactics. It lacks real dungeon crawling but is otherwise a real RPG and good example of not being unnecessarily tied to tabletop assumptions and conventions.

Pic related is an excerpt from the FFT Battle Mechanics, detailing stat calculation and level-up growth formulas. The result in-game is a set of clear and simple numerical abstractions for the player to use in strategic/tactical decision-making. But under the hood, the calculations would be very tedious on tabletop, especially in a game where level-ups are a routine occurrence (playing normally, you'll probably have 2-3 characters leveling up every battle)

>>3917748
>Define vidya RPG
It's what you get when you take the basic mechanics and principles of a tactical wargame and play as an individual unit instead of the commander, and the game emphasizes adventures rather than military conflict.
I'd agree that Deus Ex is a hybrid game (FPS+Stealth+Adventure with some RPG elements).

>>3917757
You can, sort of. They are similar, but not the same. You can derive Vidya RPGs from other Vidyas and they are still Vidya RPGs so long as they have RPG gameplay and mechanics. You do not really need to reference tabletop at all. If you took Warcraft RTS mechanics, shifted the focus onto 4-5 hero units, implemented auto-pause mechanics, replaced the resource gathering and tech tree buildings with dungeon crawling, and replaced the enemy army with assorted NPCs and monsters, you'd have an RPG with no reference to tabletop games at all. (Though such a game would be an awful lot like Baldur's Gate).

>>3918250
Dragonlance was what made D&D popular everywhere in the old days, it's not really a JP only thing.
Kawazu was the one who set the general JRPG formula in stone back then with FFII being the template for a lot of design elements that still persist to this day, and FFII is structured exactly like a Dragonlance module so yeah, with this in mind things do start to make a lot of sense but western games aren't so different, the Gold Box games alone are mostly Dragonlance stuff and they were seminal for the western market.

It's ironic because later on his career he distanced himself from how the Dragonlance modules played and instead worked on creating a formula that would simulate the core narrative gimmick of Dragonlance's books, that is multiple main characters with their own parties, living in and exploring a setting in their own different ways, at their own pace and with their own self contained stories, something the west didn't really do until recent times, largely because they stuck to the Dragonlance module DNA much like the japanese industry did but went onto the opposite tangent of trying to be direct tabletop adaptations instead of being conversions.

RAISTLIN MAJERE
THE QUINTESSENTIAL POWER-HUNGRY VOLUNTARILY CELIBATE 4CHAN ARCH-MAGUS

The heart of any rpg is gameplay, i.e. combat and build autism. If you can skip combat, it is not an rpg but an immersive sim.

>>3917740
>>3917743
It's not even a hybrid. Deus Ex is not an RPG at all. In any fucking way whatsoever.

>>3918495
Yeah it doesn't have levels, skills, xp, skill checks, quests, or anything else you'd find in an RPG

>>3918485
So Oblivion isn't an RPG, huh

>>3918512
Are you ready for this, anon? Guess what. The elder scrolls games are not, in fact, RPGs. Congratulations. You've discovered the action adventure genre.

>>3918525
Is Baldur's Gate an action adventure game series as well then? What's the key difference other than perspective?

>>3918529
>action

>>3918410
>Dragonlance was what made D&D popular everywhere in the old days
Nah. That's what fucked TSR over, the novels were popular apart from their relation to D&D.
>the Gold Box games alone are mostly Dragonlance stuff
They are mostly Forgotten Realms.

>>3918538
Real-time BG is just as fast if not faster than Oblivion

>>3918509
>Deus Ex doesn’t have skills, XP, or quests
Look, I personally think Deus Ex is RPG-adjacent at most, but did you even play the game? I don’t think that you did.

>>3918540
And?

>>3918546
That post is sarcasm, anon.

>>3918547
Your terse one-word comments indicate you're unable to describe a significant difference, don't discus it then I won't force you

>>3918525
They are arpgs.
Hybrid action and RPG.
The combat and dungeoning is much more RPG than action game, and definitely not adventure game. Sim elements are heavy but not so much they overpower everything else and the game becomes a sim genre.

Real action games test your reflexes and fine motor skills, ES doesn't. Adventure games emphasize puzzles. Interactive fiction emphasizes storytelling. Elder Scrolls doesn't fit any of those.

They are ARPGs with emphasis on simulation elements.

>>3918529
How about you first explain how Baldur's Gate is like Oblivion.
Call of Duty has skills and quest objectives, too, anon. Street Fighter has spells and character interactions. Are those RPGs?

>>3918581
No, "Arpgs" are Diablo.
Oblivion is an adventure game. The correct term that you're struggling (and failing) to avoid is "adventure". They. Are. Adventure games. That's the name of the genre. "Adventure". And if you want to get specific, then you call them "action adventure" games. They are not action RPGs. They are action adventure games.

Hope that helps.

>>3918559
When people refuse to engage with your bad faith tortured semantics, that doesn't somehow mean you won anything, anon. It just means you've been dismissed because you were crushed.

>>3918584
Fantasy setting
Custom character creation
Leveling and skill progression
Loot and equipment upgrades
Main quest + side quests
Factions and guilds
Dialogue-driven quest structure
Player agency in quest order and character build

A pair of fantasy RPGs

>>3918588
And?

>>3918548
I done goofed

>>3918589
Which of those doesn't apply to Call Of Duty? Because... literally all of those also apply to Call Of Duty.

>>3918589
>Fantasy setting
Why undermine your entire post by starting with this?

>>3918587
The only people who consider ARPGs to mean Diablo clones and nothing else are Diablo fans that have no experience with any other RPGs. And retards like you who want to pick a fight for no reason.
>>3918587
>They. Are. Adventure games.
No, they aren't adventure games. I'm quite familiar with adventure games and Elder Scrolls games don't qualify.

>>3918587
btw, do you classify Dark Souls and Skyrim in the same genre?
Anyone with half a brain should be able to tell they really don't belong in the same category. Yet you'd put them both in Action-Adventure.

>>3918589
>Fantasy setting
Not a real RPG trait, though it's more important than your replies realize.
>Custom character creation
Incidentally an RPG trait -- wargame mechanics require a system robust enough to model a variety of unit types with some semblance of parity. This means character creation should be possible. But it's not an essential element of a given game nor does character creation guarantee a game is an RPG.
>Leveling and skill progression
RPG trait via wargame mechanics + adventuring focus
>Loot and equipment upgrades
RPG trait, same as previous.
>Main quest + side quests
Not an essential RPG trait. An RPG can just be about getting wealthy and powerful.
>Factions and guilds
Not an RPG trait, simply a consequence of world sim elements.
>Dialogue-driven quest structure
Not an RPG trait.
>Player agency in quest order and character build
Optional RPG features.

>>3918761
You asked how how Baldur's Gate is like Oblivion, and then you evaluate as though you asked for a list of traits only found in RPGs. Make up your mind

Genres are not real retards.

>>3918774
Adding a useless period but missing an essential comma, your grammar is backwards

>>3918775
It's your mom's period, unlike your mom's other discharge it was in fact essential.

Which is the dumber perennial argument on this board: "does ARPG mean 'Diablo clone' or 'action RPG'", or "RTWP vs turn based"? It's surprisingly tough to decide.

>>3918802
The answer is "What is an RPG?" because on this board it always devolves into
>RPG is when I like a game and not-RPG is when I don't like a game
Ironically there are tons of TTRPGs that would be called Not-RPGs by this board because for a lot video game fans RPGs begin and end at being a DnD clone

>>3918587
What other action adventure games have to-hit dice rolls?

I don't think developers need to do so since the mechanics they develop actuate the game they're making. On the other hand people that play video games should at least dabble with table top, none the less other forms of games, to understand video games at a base level.

Disco Elysium, Oblivion and WotR are all RPGs. Deal with it. You play a character and have stats/attributes.

>>3918587
>Oblivion is an adventure game
Name a single proper adventure game that has any similarity to oblivion? You can't. Keep playing Diablo, a action adventure metroidvania.

>>3918802
>RTWP vs turn based"?
This has merit and can lead to a discussion.
>"does ARPG mean 'Diablo clone' or 'action RPG'
This is just one schizo ruining every single thread because he never played any game before diablo and uses google as some form of validation for his "argument".

>>3918539
The novels' popularity got a lot of people into D&D regardless, the modules were fairly successful on average and there were well over a dozen of those, there were also other things like comics and miniatures which were quite lucrative, even outside of TSR's retardation when it came to handling the brand they got more benefits out of it than anything, for better or worse Wizards still come back to it to this day unlike other settings like Dark Sun which have been memoryholed.
I did misremember a few DL Silver Box games as Gold Box games though, I'll give you that.

>>3918890
>The novels' popularity got a lot of people into D&D regardless
Sure, but far less than people say, as it was hard to find people to play DL with in my experience, and they fairly quickly ruined the whole setting anyway even when they tried to salvage its overly novel influenced nature with the second continent (where the last of the Goldbox Krynn games is set). The novels encouraged TSR to chase that audience and so they created too many settings and novelizations and tried to go full multimedia empire, which led to them overextending themselves and put the fear of God into WotC to avoid doing the same. Dragonlance, as a tabletop setting that people wanted to run, was mostly a disappointment and I think the growth of the popularity of D&D during that time was more related to fantasy itself gaining popularity.

>>3918885
> This is just one schizo ruining every single thread because he never played any game before diablo and uses google as some form of validation for his "argument".
Oh, you’re STILL salty about getting embarrassed about this?

>>3918587
there's a lot of retarded shit said on the 'chan, and this is probably in the top 10% of retarded opinions. here, have your (you)

>>3918943
Ah yes, let's remember that conversation. Journalist/reviewers use term x and your counterclaim was a bunch of google hits. Jesus.
Plus,you never even mentioned rogue, which is ironic in how much diablo takes from it.
But to put your pathetic argument down for good. Genres aren't called by their best selling games or game that popularized them. Fps games are fps games and not doom like.

Now feel free to post some google shit or some idiotic reviewer to make your case seem even more pathetic.

>>3918960
Getting this defensive so soon is never a good sign, my zoomer pal. However, I'll humor you, in the spirit of friendly debate, and the search for the truth.
Remind me again what was the crux of your argument? Were you the one arguing that "Diablo isn't a hack and slash or a dungeon crawler", or were you arguing about what the definition of "ARPG" was? Just want to be sure I'm not putting words in your mouth.

>>3918996
>Diablo isn't a hack and slash or a dungeon crawler
It is not. I want you to tell me how is diablo connected gameplay wise to wizardry or dungeon master?
Cmon, i am looking forward to this. And don't you dare come out with " it is just isometric wizardry".
As for hack and slash, it is just a vague term not connected to genres but playstyle.

>>3919003
Oh and i forgot, no bullshit about wizardry/dm not being dungeon crawlers.

>>3918957
There's a lot of retarded shit said on 4chan, and that's not even in the middle 60% of retarded opinions. For one thing, you can't even capitalize or punctuate correctly.
Did you know that the (you) is already generated for the targeted user?
Go do your homework before we tell your mom you're on 4chan.

>>3918485
>If you can skip combat, it is not an rpg but an immersive sim.
spergtastic post

>>3918368
>FFT's math bloat is good because its more complicated
Wew lad. Don't make an effort post ever again.