this goes for all the games in the genre

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>>2245907
So what you're saying is we should combine rhythm and RTS?

>>2245907
This nigga plays rts on a console

>>2245907
>Why is this considered strategy
It's not, but this board is very liberal when it comes to strategy since it allows visual novellas (/gsg/ games)

>>2245907
>unc has early onset arthritis
Vidya aren't for you anymore, old man.
Try books or something.

>>2245907
It's *real time* startegy.
So timing matter.
It's in the name.
Play HoMM if you need something turn-based.

>>2245973
So whwre is the *strategy*?

>>2245982
Without strategy you'd be clicking blindly with little hope of achieving results - like a monkey with a typewriter. Obviously you need to have a battle plan if you want to get anything done.

>>2245982
Is about which orders you give and when.
You know, just like IRL strategy.

>>2245907
>press buttons faster than the enemy
this is only half the battle
the other half is pressing the correct buttons

>>2245929
Populous 3 is a thing

>>2246008
... but there is no rhythm game stuff in Populous 3?
Unless that was the joke about the OST being mostly cool unga bunga music.

>>2246011
The OST is reactive (one of the "ground-breaking" features of the game, and actually kinda cool for AD 1998), so the more you click, the more intense the drum section gets.
This is further coupled with changing the drum section in combat and changing it rhythm to your reactions.
A neat little feature, but it's there.

I kind of miss times when game dev cycle was half-in-half serious features and based gameplay loop combined with goofing around and making tiny easter eggs

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>>2246005
>>2245997

>>2246059
Concession accepted.

>>2246018
Gonna call bullshit on that one.
Reinstalled it just to test and mauling the mouse does nothing with the music.

People like to think they're god-tier strategists, and that the only reason they lose is that the other person is faster or employed some kind of "cheese"

>>2245907
*laughs in LimitedViper*

>>2246189
>faster
Worst part is that it's generally not even the case.
They think 90APM is some Olympic-tier accomplishment that require years of sweating to achieve, not realizing themselves are often way above that in non-RTS games. RTS are among the most relaxed genre speed-wise.
It's like complaining that FPS have too much text to read, and that's not wanting to be a speed-reading tryhard is the reason you got AWP'ed 5 times in a row at the same corner.

>>2245907
pretty bad strategy to be slow and decrepit

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>play
>press buttons faster than the enemy
>win
Why is this considered strategy and allowed on this board? This shit is basically just Osu but without the music and in pvp mode.

>>2245907
>inhale
>exhale
>live
I mean what the fuck

>>2246287
Asthma isn't real, there are only people who should git gud at inhaling.

>>2245907
>I can't pause real life therefore strategy can't exist

>>2245982
why do you post in such a dishonest and baity fashion? dont be such a disgusting little gremlin

>>2246266
It's a convenient thing to blame, especially when games display your APM compared to your opponent and it becomes a dick-measuring issue similar to K/D in FPSes. Shitters are just bad at playing and bad at learning how to do better.

>>2246312
A real life hour takes on real life hour to pass so its pretty slow and makes pausing unnecesary.

>>2246275
Strict timers in chess only exist to force mistakes. If you gave GMs a generous +30 or even +60 seconds per move, a large amount of matches would end in a draw.

RTS are multi unit action games.

>>2246275
With 1-3 hours for each game, advantage is minimal.
>Speed/Blitz/Bullet
Not chess

>>2245907
>invent the radio
>win because i can give my guys orders faster than the radioless guys
wowowowow no. god needs to balance this out NOW

>>2250513
Except the RL units have infinitely better AI and you don't need to micro them, so just giving them a single "attack move" command in RL is the equivalent of several dozens of micro commands in vidya, if not a lot more, to get an equivalent performance out of them. Not to mention that sometimes just telling them the overall strategy you're going for is sufficient as a "single" command, to replace literal minutes of dozens of micro commands

I've been saying for years, they're actually just a gradient of the same genre. RTS Games >>><<< Fighting Games >>><<< Rhythm Games

>>2252290
Literally every game falls on this gradient you retard.

>playing pvp
You get what you deserve.

>>2245907
Fucking agreed. Really liked the concept of Anno games, but couldn't keep playing it because there was no effective pause and autopause.

>>2260026
OP is playing against the computer
You fucking retard

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>>2245907
pressing button faster than opponent is pretty much every PvP vidya .
every single game is just a skinner box of press button for stimulus. press button-->see output-->press button--->see other output
boiling down all games like this demystifies the expierence "breaks immersion" via awareness of conditioning which is the first path to breaking the conditioning.
looking back when video games was mainly nerd shit I see how people would look at gamers with pity and disgust. They are pressing buttons purely to hear the different beeps and boops on screen. and getting some sort of visual feedback as well. which amounts to something akin to masturbation.
like you could be more productive if you tried to play the piano or synthesiszer.
But anyways I agree with you OP. When I play RTS im not intersted in hitting hotkeys and other stuff. I like to sitback and enjoy the ambiance and environment of the game.
When it comes down to press button faster competitive play, I hardly see the point of a UI/UX and a graphical display.
you're more concerned with other stuff besides graphics. in competitive play.

>>2265239
>pressing button faster than opponent is pretty much every PvP vidya .
No its not. I don't remember people winning in civ multiplayer or any card game by using a shit strategy and pressing the buttons fast enough.

>>2265789
he made a stunning discovery that people enjoy clicking dem computers
don't be mean, everyone was young once

>>2265789
card games arent vidya. they were merely ported to a digital media.
the PvP vidya that doesnt have some sort of twitch reaction component is in a very small minority.
the competitive scene in civ and homm is severly dwarfed by rts,arpg moba,fps and mmo.

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>>2245929
Fund it!

>>2267443
nice moving of the goalpost

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>>2268600
i said pretty much every pvp vidya.
im not moving goal posts, you're just grasping for retorts

You could make a game where there is deliberately lag between orders and action. But no one would play it.

>>2268708
tell that to the ten million guys playing BW on dial-up

>>2245907
The strategy is encoded in the proper combination of buttons pressed at the right time, just like in all games.

>>2268780
... actually: just like in all PC activity.
Even if you design a say, part of a turbine in a CAD program, it comes down to proper planning which is again encoded in the right button presses at the right time.

>>2245907
I'm not really the type to play RTS, but wouldn't most unit have timer to build? How does pressing button faster make you win?

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>>2268785
the process that led to developing a turbine had less rules and contraints than a game of starcraft

>>2268799
There are RTS games where you can make your units dodge arrows and cannonballs like Neo, by moving slightly to the side as the enemy is shooting at you. If you can click faster, you can do this all over the map simultaneously and be invincible in multiple locations.

>>2269205
there's a limit to how fast you can do things
it's somewhat malleable to your mental state, how tired you are, thing like that
and it's also improvable through practice and out-of-game regime, like sleeping well and being in good physical shape
the strategy in RTS games involves rationing your current attention and "control capacity" among the various things too
overfocusing on unit micro means weakening economy control, focusing on calculating how much unit production you can maintain on current economy distracts you from looking at the minimap, having to take a shit during the game ensures certain defeat
in ye olden days, chess grandmasters would undertake rigorous physical endurance training regimes before world championship matches, to make sure they can concentrate and maintain attention for longer, as part of preparation... strategy

>>2245907
Yeah I was over RTS pretty early on for the button mashing, actions-per-minute bullshit. Not gonna say its not strategy though, I just dont care for the format. There is turn based, but that feels a little too table-top for me. I loved the early Total War series for the fact it kind of combined the best of both. All turn based when it came to management but you still get to fight battles in real time with whatever resources you managed to strat into the battle in turn-based mode. It's real god damn shame they dumbed the games down so much and shitted them up with stupid mechanics. Now I can't find anything I like. The paradox stuff seems to be the next best format but it's also kind of boring not having real battles and just blobbing around. Anybody got other suggestions?

>>2246275
chess is not a strategy game, retard

>>2245907
Mr Slow on YouTube. 20 APM still wins. Not just clicking faster.

>>2246266
A lot of shit that you do in RTS isn't taken into account by APM. It doesn't help that RTS interfaces often suck ass.

>>2245907
I haven't played AOE 2 against another human for about 6 years or so now. And that was just a series of matches against a friend of mine I knew personally.
If you play ANY game competitively and care about winning or losing them, you're an irredeemable basement faggot and really should get a job.

This board is for normal people who only play AOE 2 and StarCraft 2 single player for the kino campaigns and maybe to get gold medals.

>>2245907
I've never considered gookclick to be strategy.

>>2269330
Right? It's clearly a rhythm game.

>>2245907
Play better games and not gookclickers.

>>2245929
There's Patapon and Ratatan for that.

>>2245907
>play
>have higher iq than an enemy
>win
Why is this considered strategy and allowed on this board? This shit is basically just having superior genes but online.

>>2245907
Aoe 2 is the easiest game of all age of empires, is literally a baby game.

I wish I could still play RTS. My wrist is shot. I can't use a mouse anymore at all

>>2245907
If you lose simply because your opponent is faster than you, that just means you suck at strategy as well as being fat and slow.

>>2295079
it has nothing to do with being fat and slow, just look at Hera and MrYo.
It has everything to do with knowledge about the game.
People who say "RTS isn't real strategy because click fast" would get obliterated by time constraints alone in a chess tournament by anyone who actually knows and practices the game.

>>2295064
Have you tried vertical ones?
Solved my wrist problems in literally a single week.

>>2295064
put your whole arm into moving your mouse

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>>2245907
If only there was a way to combine real time and turn based strategy to get the best of both worlds. Too bad the only company to ever do it turned into ultraslop with zero competition.

>>2246287
you are a victim

>>2245997
>BUILD A GUY
>BUILD A BUILDING
>BUILD A GUY
>BUILD A GUY
>BUILD A BUILDING
>FOCUS FIRE ONE UNIT!
>FOCUS FIRE ONE UNIT!
>FOCUS FIRE ONE UNIT!
>FOCUS FIRE ONE UNIT!
>FOCUS FIRE ONE UNIT!
Yeah, that's a real brain melting strategy there general....

>>2270021
>It doesn't help that RTS interfaces often suck ass.
Being expected to do CTRL/SHIFT + *Commands* to add / change / assign shit to hotkeys will never not be a pain in the ass... And 3 times as worse when you have to do so under pressure, which is basically all the time in RTS.

>They fucking die anyways
>Gotta do all that shit again
Might as well just get good at selecting shit on the screen, since you already need to do that anyways...

>Oh but the game can auto assign a bunch of shit to them automatically with no user input aside from the most basic singular unit type setting!
That's half my point. The day I can JUST assign a fucking command group that will be automatically rebuilt /regrouped on the fly with ZERO input from me aside from putting the fucking units there in the first place is the day the genre goes mainstream again.

this board would be pretty much dead if the strategy thingy was actually enforced. rts games and total war games unfortunately do shit up the catalog but at least the
>people
playing them are contained in a few barely alive threads. I doubt they would fuck off to reddit if they weren't able to post here so it's good enough I guess

>>2295064
Pausable RTS + controller support unironically.

>>2246275
without an increment of at least +60 seconds nuchess is a shitty rts

>>2311600
>rts games and total war games unfortunately do shit up the catalog
If rts games shat up the catalog, I'd be ecstatic. Unfortunately it's Hoi4 autistic mod NIGGERS who shit up the board with their gay russian culture

>>2311595
You're looking for BAR/Zero-K, you can perma add a unit type to control groups and it persists between matches.

>>2314185
>BAR
What's the point of unit groups when the only winning strategy is to just turtle until you can build artillery? Any other strategies aren't worth wasting resources on.
>Endless QoL features out the ass
>Every game requires nearly half an hour of mindless rote economy/base building
>Now I can make decisions!
>What unit do I make while waiting for artillery?
I like the QoL stuff but every other part of it is fucking terrible and boring.

>They just updated Legion units and make their unique artillery look nearly identical to the Armada variant
Sorry but the devs are just too fucking retarded to make any good decisions, and I chalk up the QoL features to just be noob bait for this 0-fun overbalanced shit-fest of a "game"

>>2314215
You're bad at the game.

>>2314283
You think you're "good" at a SHIT game

>>2245907
Actually the problem is that gamers optimize the fun out of everything and in AoE and RTS games in general that means you must follow the flowchart for your particular civ and failure to do so results in losing the game as your opponent is following their flowchart and RTS games come down to who follows their flowchart the quickest. In AoE especially the flowchart is far more important than even micro. This makes the game great for PvP as if both sides follow their meta build orders the game becomes purely skill based, the problems arise when you try to use a more fun but suboptimal build order or unit type. If you want an easy civ that has a good winrate in shitter elo then just spam Goths, Byzantines, Magyars and Franks or even Teutons, also Britons but they're Archers so they need a bit more micro.

>>2311588
Which building do you build? Can you afford to build it now? What if building it now sets you back from researching a valuable technology you need, which is more valuable the earlier you get it? What if you're better off focusing on the buildings and units you already have, and producing more of one particular unit instead of diversifying to multiple units? How can you make the choice? You need more info, so you better send a unit to go see what your opponent is doing. If he's already massing an army to come toward you, then you need military units right now to defend or counterattack to pull him away from your base, but if he has no army then it's probably safe to go for the valuable technology instead.

This is all an example of how strategy works in RTS games. You hyper-fixate on APM because you are slow and bad at the base mechanics of the game, so it's all you can think about. You never get to the level where you are free to actually think about the game in strategic terms.

>>2314689
>AoE
We literally just had a pro-level tournament set on Arabia that showcased a huge variety of strategies including several off-meta builds for popular civs. You are pretending like "the meta" is a solved thing, but it isn't. It's always shifting as people find new opportunities in unexpected combinations of mechanics. Sometimes it results in really cheesy, annoying things, sometimes it results in deep mechanical play being the deciding factor. Other times it just creates chaos where the person who can adapt fastest wins.

>>2314689
>Actually the problem is that gamers optimize the fun out of everything
This is true for the corporate twitch addict losers who treat games like a job.
But not everyone is like that.

>>2248829
Mmm... Currently most classical games end in draws.

>>2303905
play sword of the stars 1

>>2311588
>FPS
>CLICK MOUSE ON CERTAIN COLORED PIXEL
>HOLD KEYBOARD BUTTON
>CLICK MOUSE ON CERTAIN COLORED PIXEL
>HOLD KEYBOARD BUTTON

all FPS games are Osu wannabes.

>>2314689
RTS is simply one of those genres that really suck to play if your skill is garbage.

>>2246059
The computer doesn't tell me what to do unless it is Phantom Brigade, which is turn based.

>>2315700
probably the worst take on this board right now.
Ask anyone here when they started playing and obsessing over RTS and strategy games in general.
You don't *need* to play competitively in korean tournaments to enjoy the genre. You don't even need to play against other people to catch the RTS bug.

>>2315835
I meant 'suck to play competitively against randoms' specifically.

>>2315700
Naeh rts games are still great if you're dogshit.
Arguably they're even better if you're bad, since then the singleplayer and campaigns become more interesting even on lower difficulties.

RTS games suck, if you have a self-inflated ego and can't handle that some people are smarter than you.

>>2315864
>RTS games suck, if you have a self-inflated ego and can't handle that some people are smarter than you.
That's the gist of what I was implying. If you suck, won't try to git gud, won't play against opponents closer to your skill level, and all you do is seethe that some players can beat you effortlessly in five minutes, it means you're in no condition to enjoy playing.

>>2315839
>>2315880
ahh that's fair

>>2315835
>when they started playing and obsessing over RTS
Prob Warcraft 2 or Command & Conquer, I forget which came out first. Without looking them up I’d guess about 95-96.
I haven’t played RTS competitively for about 20 years, but I’ll occasionally fire up a little dow1 single player, as a treat

>>2245907
play Knights&Merchants

>>2245907
>basically just Osu
I'd say it's more like racing.
>run a few laps on a race track to get the feel of it
>tune up your car for straights/curves/off-road/drift/whatever
>hog the road so others can't overtake you
>effectively recover from a spin-out
>go recklessly when desperate
>hope for a miracle when too far behind to catch up
It takes speed to win, obviously, but also knowledge, assertiveness, restraint, composure - basically a lot of experience to play very well.

>>2245982
in attention management

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>>2245907
This is why true strategy games are turn-based.

>>2295064
lower your sensitivity and move the mouse with the whole arm, that's how I got better at Quake and that's how you'll get better at RTS games

>>2322220
"true strategy" has nothing to do with obediently waiting your turn to strike you fucking moron

>>2322261
The focus is on STRATEGIZING, not APM.

The whole problem with RTS is that it's 90:10 when it comes to doing actions with precision and speed and doing all that strategy in real time. The strategy comes in when a player's army is in the wrong place and it loses them the game. The strategy comes into play when a player realizes the enemy wins if the status quo continues, so they're pressured to attack.

RTS has those elements, for sure. It's unfortunately not the focus of RTS. It might seem like it is to people who already mastered the precision and speed of input. Would you like chess if you had to read a passage from a book before you make a turn? Plenty of people out there would find the game unaltered. They've learned to read fast. RTS players seem like the kind of people who would have trouble with that. They'd rightly question that the focus of the game seems to be in reading really fast.

>>2245929
Starcraft2 already exists

>>2322438
A good rts player may realize things all at once. But can only execute orders in a linear fashion.
If they could they would micro everyone in a mob and execute base orders simultaneously.

>>2322384
you can't strategize while under a time pressure? pathetic

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>>2322384
>See that ridge? We stand perfectly still until god tells us to move
>Ignore that enemy coming at us and bracing weapon
>Ignore that he's aiming at us! Ignore it, men!
>That's TRUE real life strategy right there, so-ACK!!!!

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>>2245956
Poor people are people too.

>>2322438
>Would you like chess if you had to read a passage from a book before you make a turn?
What kind of analogy is this? RTS players don't read and process redundant information, they memorize everything by rote and cite it from their own minds as a checklist on the maps they play for years.

the think more about what the player might do next since they already know what they are going to do.

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>>2322689
>putting your soldiers in places where they can get attacked
sounds like a strategy fail to me dawg

>>2327512
they ran out of arbitrarily set 2 action points when running to the next position. Sounds like a game design fail to me dawg

>>2322752
gonna need a fact check on this one

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>>2322689
Imagine that being a cornerstone of military doctrine for several hundred years. What kind of crazy fiction is that?

I played AOE1 and AOE2 when they came out. I simply refuse to believe that anyone is still playing them in current year, much less playing them with a fucking console controller. This is elaborate bait.

>>2327663
little did we know at the time that age of empires would reach the height of gaming. i wonder if anyone plays rise of nations

>>2327663
Why? It's fantastic to throw off your opponent in ranked 1:1s, just load in with one and then use the normal person m&k to kick his now off-guard ass.

>>2327659
the fact that you can walk forward in formation, in unison, and under constant enemy fire, dismantles this comparison to turn based slop

>>2327615
>not ebeing able to find a good defencive position within the action point limit
lol whoever's playing is an idiot

>>2314215
>What's the point of unit groups when the only winning strategy is to just turtle until you can build artillery? Any other strategies aren't worth wasting resources on.
lmao, clueless

>>2328595
real life environments are nothing like turn-based slop level design where the developer deliberately gives you cover every 2 action points, you dumb fucking triple nigger

>>2315721
>The computer doesn't tell me what to do
Cope. You've pre-programmed yourself to respond the same way to every condition and enemy encounter. So the computer doing specific things makes you react in a predictable way. You are programmed and controlled by the computer, your brain is basically keyboard macros with extra steps.

>>2328648
>where the developer deliberately gives you cover every 2 action points
lol you do not play any turn based games and it shows

>>2328910
You're beyond retarded.

>>2328910
>see a tank in tbs
>bring AT weapons in range
>see a tank in rts
>bring AT weapons in range
>but it's bad when rts players do it because....I said so, only I play strategy
>not featured : tbs anon needed 5 minutes of concentrated brain power, raw neuron rubbing for thought-forming purposes to come up with "I need AT weapons" after the tank showed up

>>2245961
Wait, that acronym. What does it mean?

>>2329001
prove your argument. Protip: you won't, because you're wrong

>>2329163
XCOM: UFO defence, and X-COM Enemy Unknown/Within. Both feature maps with wide stretches of almost to absolutely no cover, and the ability to destroy what little cover does remain, so you either have to fight a long range engagement (good luck if you didn't bring a sniper), somehow waste an age trying to go around the parking lot through the very edge of the map (and lose LOS to the ayys, or worse, split the party), or run into it like a suicidal maniac and hope your dudes can dodge the enemy fire (or retreat but, you know, that doesn't win the mission that just retreats you).

then there's games like Advance Wars which are even more abstracted but i only know it from user made maps so who knows if the developer maps are as good as that.

>>2329134
The difference is that TBS anon has to make his AT gun and shots actually count whereas RTS anon just clicks a bunch times more and sends more AT guns in the general vicinity.

>>2245907
I hoover around 1100 elo and 100% of my wins are against people with higher APM

>>2329076
I knew you'd reply with that post at that exact time, programmed NPC

>>2329134
>the APM ADHD HRT autist thinks playing games is mentally straining
Holy

>>2329198
if you want to go at it like this then the rts player has to take in accounts just as much informations to take a decision
>when does the tank appear, is it an early, normal or late timing ?
>was it one tank made to help at one point of the map or in timing ? or did the opponent started to include tanks in its unit composition ?
>can it be a rally error that this tank showed up there while there is a pack of them skirting the edge of the map to ruin one of my bases ?
>or did the enemy just wanted to make me waste ressources into AT weapons while he's actually going air ?
>>2329270
You're a retard that missed the point, congratulation
alright open wide
>tbs anon said that rts players responding to similar situations with similar answers is bad and "pre-programing"
>I say that's just a component of strategy no matter if real-time or turn-based
>I make fun of him along the way making it like he needs to reinvent the wheel everytime and that's why he needs it turn-based
>you arrived at your mental strain reply
did they have to add padding to your bedroom ?
as for the rest of the thread, I play both rts and tbs, both have good amounts of decision making that depend more on individual games than the genres.
the only fags in the whole system are the tbfags/spfags that misunderstand what the impact of apm actually is and at worst use apm as a scapegoat.
it's easy to point your fingers at apm while it's hard on the ego to look at the replay and see you were severely behind before a fight even started
but hey, atleast the complains about rushes/early aggression have gone mostly away

Bros are still arguing in this low quality bait thread

>>2329369
>all those words
Just to say that your brain is pre programmed no differently from a keybind. You are responding in the exact way I predicted

if my slow 100apm having ass can hit near GM in 2010 peak SCII fervor, the game is not about clicking button fast. there is something to be said about build optimization and rote repetition of that, but then in any turn based game you pretty much have the same thing anyways. take civ for instance- by turn 1-2 I want my settler down, I should time my first settler to finish building by pop 3 and the scout or warrior should be home by then to escort it, i want my first golden age by x turn etc etc. so if you're complaining about that I have to just assume you've never tried to play the game to win against a tough opponent or even player the harder AI and might be a midwit.
>inb4 words words words
sucks to be illiterate, git gud.

>>2322821
>RTS players don't read and process redundant information
If reading was a necessary subtask in chess, it wouldn't be redundant information. It's actually funny how hard you outmanoeuvred your own point.

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>>2330877
This is kind of like the GDP argument. If you focus on the flawed measuring stick, your argument will suffer as a consequence. APM is just a flawed measurement at the end of the day.
Have you considered that having 100 APM of meaningful actions truly places you in the top 1% of skill? Add to that all manner of mechanical things you need to master (camera movement/setup, hotkey setup) to attain even that 100 APM?

I'm actually not saying you're wrong about mastering the game, but have you considered that you might've accidentally diagnosed the problem? 100 APM is slow and reasonable. More would be better, but most people are going to get better results playing at a slow and reasonable pace, because people are inherently limited.

So we can very easily verify why it's kind of a silly standard. Would a good SCII AI be unfair if it did 20 000 APM? A lot of people think a bad SCII AI that did 20k APM and lost wouldn't be, but what if it was good? This is actually a mental sanity check if you're thinking logically about this at all. A lot of people hyperfocus on the end result and not whether the design decisions are good or not.

>>2330975
>the game is not about clicking button fast
did you miss me saying that? or were you just that excited to go on your little educational rant?
>the problem
there is no problem. the game is the game, engage with it earnestly or don't. not my problem you'd rather be a midwit discussing design semantics.

>>2331095
How about you take your own advice.
I think it's pretty much implicitly clear I understood what you said. I responded to the idea and I justified what I said. Don't say anything if you're going to take disagreement that personally. That's genuinely good life advice, by the way. Get over yourself.

I'll make it simpler for you. Just because APM is a flawed measuring stick that's only concerned with how fast you're clicking, doesn't mean we have to follow the measurement into the full extent of that retardation. I pointed out, if you stop being fully retarded with the measurement, notice that you validated the measurement? That's a pretty obvious problem for your case.

>>2331292
I guess you really did miss the rest of the implied statement of
>the game is not about clicking button fast
which is absolutely not me disagreeing with you and then got indignant about me telling you you're being redundant and obnoxious to boot. that's wild. you're wild.

>>2331297
You can take the conversation in any direction you want. You can even reject it. From my point of view it kind of seems like you peed your pants and you're complaining that there's pee in your pants. I just wanted to make sure you understand that part.

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This conversation in general needs a reality check. Data seems to indicate click things really fast (= latency) at a high volume (= APM).

>>2331309
Note that while it's clearly correct that higher APM isn't automatically better (see diamond outliers), there's also very clearly some kind of latency ceiling and APM floor going on.
When you really dig at the data, you find a surprising correlation that's a lot higher than you'd think.
Skill correlates HEAVILY with how few actions you do per screen. This makes sense, it's a lot more about doing the right actions rather than any action.

But there's a reason I outlined the floor and ceiling. In this conversation both sides are half right. With that, you are fully wrong if you fully commit to either point of view.