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any /waka/ niggas here?

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Can someone redpill me on learning Sanskrit and Pali as someone who has already learned Latin and Greek?

>>25006963
Man why can't I be as smart as you. I only know English. Barely.

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the greeks in my mind keep waging war against the romans. as soon as I wake up I hear their bitching. fuck this thread for introducing these two into my mind. fuck you.

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I am rereading Longus once more, just because the novel offers so much that may not be apparent at first glance. First instance, the novel itself as a “pastoral” linking itself to the sprawling landscapes it describes in the text.

>>Pointed verbal echoes support an interpretation of the rural space as a mirror of the text: the narrator wishes that his narrative be a “delightful property” ( ktema terpnon) just as the estate is called a “most beautiful property” ( ktema kalliston). Strikingly, the same verb ( ekponoumai) is used for the labour of the narrator and the work of Philetas on his garden. Longus, it seems, gives a nod here to Theocritus who employs that very word when he refers to the the poet Philetas of Cos. The garden as a combination of nature and art mirrors an art that “imitates and improves upon nature” (553).

So it is like a Russian nesting doll. You have the pastoral landscape and you have the pastoral novel above it like a work of art that encapsulates nature. The verbal echoes here are quite clear. Also noticeable is the wolf imagery for sexual deviancy-

>Gnathon (Jaws) the elderly pederast ie wolf jaws
>Daphnis falling into a wolf trap where he meets Chloe
>Dorco dressed as a wolf to pounce on Chloe
>Lycanion (wolf woman) the prostitute

>>25007053
I must pay respects to Longus by reading his novel again. It's been a while plus I'm no longer that green so much more should it be appreciated. Read Cervantes' version of the pastoral La Galatea. He completely breaks the rules in this one. Should increase the chuckles if you are aware of them. He comes out swinging.

What's the most accurate YouTube recital of the original Iliad to listen to?

>>25007077
It is secretly a right wing novel for the modern reader. It would appeal in today’s political climate even more than its original day I think.

>urbanites as all deviant homosexuals (Gnathon) and lascivious prostitutes (Lycanion)
>the pastoral land as pure and urbanity as a blight
>Nature over nurture as the main duo believe themselves to be children of shepherds but only when it’s revealed they’re both offspring of aristocrats is their love truly blessed
>good breeding as inherent to nature of aristocrat class

This stuff all makes the novel a timeless classic of right wing thought.

>>25007473
from the attempts I've seen, Ioannis Stratakis(PBUH)' recitation is maybe the best as far the sounds, he even adds the digammas back in, but the con is that I don't think you can find the full video on YT, but if I were to guess someone may have uploaded it somewhere else
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAkQrwfvL1U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=101NFAu9yhw
this one I also like as far as the sounds, but it's a bit too dramatic for my taste
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1KkZH6hWyU
then I may be biased since it's what I used to learn the dactylic hexameter by heart(for Virgil's Aeneid, not even Homer yet), but there's this gem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI0mkt6Z3I0

>>25008100
Epic thanks, will be checking these out

>>25006963
What is your question, exactly?

>>25007053
Have you read Apuleius? When it comes to landscape it's most prodigious author I can think of.

>>25008329
>What is your question, exactly?
I'm just wondering what Sanskrit is like difficulty-wise

>>25008863
I can imagine that on one hand knowing both Latin and Greek should basically make it easy to digest the grammar, especially since it's supposedly more regular than Greek's, but on the other hand the vocabulary will be basically completely alien.
I also know both Greek and Latin and I'm intrigued by Sanskrit but I doubt I'll ever have the time to undertake that too

>>25009763
Vocabulary is the shittiest thing.

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im finally at the point where i can read greek but fuck me if i ever have to write it or worse, try to speak it. When reading i don't really understand why authors use certain words in places instead of others although i can understand what they are saying. Telling people i can speak ancient greek would be kind of awkward if they ask me to write or say something, although i can translate a piece of text for them, and god help me if a nu-greekoid starts talking nu-greek to me, i would guess i would pick up near 0 of what they say. Anyone else know this feel?

>>25001119
>Beyond a couple phrases most people hardly have knowledge of the gospels. Christianity has been all but seperated from common culture today. Hence why many who want to learn Latin have an easier time relating with Cato or Caesar than John or Luke

I think that's less true than you make it out to be. Certainly there are more people (Christian or not) who have pre-existing familiarity with the Gospels than have familiar with De Bello Gallico or... De Agri Cultura. But even without pre-existing familiarity, the Vulgate Gospels are good reading material because the style is simpler, more straightforward, and more casual than Caesar. The four Gospels combined are I believe longer than De Bello Gallico, and I think it would be significantly less intimidating for most students to read their way through all four Gospels than to read through the entirety of De Bello Gallico. And while the desire to conquer all Gaul and drive barbarians under the yoke is a timeless message, the Gospels are also full of interesting narratives and discourse in their own way.

>>25010066
>and god help me if a nu-greekoid starts talking nu-greek to me, i would guess i would pick up near 0 of what they say
Yes, people who have only studied Latin don't tend to understand Italian fluently either.

>>25006963
If you really knew Latin and Greek you wouldn't be asking that

>>25010066
>Telling people i can speak ancient greek would be kind of awkward if they ask me to write or say something
So don't say you speak it if you don't. You don't, you read it.

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You do read every day, right?

>>25011142
>I. PETRVS

>1 Beatus Petrus, apostolus et princeps apostolorum, Antiochenus, filius Iohannis, prouinciae Gallileae, uico Bethsaida, frater Andreae, primum sedit cathedram episcopatus in Antiochia annos VII. Hic Petrus ingressus in urbe Roma, Nerone Caesare, ibique sedit cathedram episcopatus ann. XXV m. II d. III. Fuit autem temporibus Tiberii Cesaris et Gaii et Tiberii Claudi et Neronis.

>2 Hic scripsit duas epistulas, quae catholicae nominantur, et euangelium Marci, quia Marcus auditor eius fuit et filius de baptismo ; post, omnem quattuor euangeliorum fontem, quae ad interrogationem et testimonio eius, hoc est Petri, firmatae sunt, dum alius grece, alius hebraice, alius latine consonent, tamen eius testimonio sunt firmatae.

>3 Hic ordinauit duos episcopos, Linum et Cletum, qui praesentaliter omne ministerium sacerdotale in urbe Roma populo uel superuenientium exhiberent ; beatus autem Petrus ad orationem et praedicationem, populum erudiens, uacabat.

>4 Hic cum Simone mago multas disputationes habuit, tam ante Neronem imperatorem quam ante populum ; ut quos beatus Petrus ad fidem Christi adgregabat, ille per magias et deceptiones segregabat. Et cum diutius altercarent, Simon diuino nutu interemptus est.

>5 Hic beatum Clementem episcopum consecrauit, eique cathedram uel ecclesiam omnem disponendam commisit, dicens : « Sicut mihi gubernandi tradita est a domino meo Iesu Christo potestas ligandi soluendique, ita et ego tibi committo ut ordinans dispositores diuersarum causarum, per quos actus ecclesiasticus profligetur, et tu minime in curis saeculi deditus repperiaris ; sed solummodo ad orationem et praedicare populo uacare stude. »

>6 Post hanc dispositionem martyrio cum Paulo coronatur, post passionem Domini anno XXXVIII. Qui sepultus est uia Aurelia, in templum Apollinis, iuxta locum ubi crucifixus est, iuxta palatium Neronianum, in Vaticanum, iuxta territurium Triumphalem, III kal. Iul. Hic fecit ordinationes per mens…

Huh, funny perspective on the early church. I didn’t realize the belief used to be that the gospel of Mark was Peter’s testimony. Or that the other 3 derived legitimacy from his support. The former idea seems to go back to as early as Papias or Iraneus in the 1-2nd century, while the latter seems to have arisen later.

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>Why doesn't this sentence work?
>What is this sentence?
OH MY GOD IT'S BECAUSE THE PASSIVE VOICE ALLOWS TWO NOMINATIVES
Fucking hell bro's I'm struggling

>learn classical language
>finding untouched untranalsted works is grueling and expensive
If only we had institutions dedicated to preserving knowledge and getting these things into my hands

>>25011559
Post the sentence.

>>25011559
Me when I overthink everything and sperg out over every minute detail

>>25011572
Funny of you to imply a goal of university’s is supposed to be educating people and spreading quality resources, this would be news in a lot of classics departments.

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for Hellasbros

>>25012396
roll

>>25011142
Gimme bible

>>25012592
>1 Petrus Apostolus Jesu Christi, electis advenis dispersionis Ponti, Galatiæ, Cappadociæ, Asiæ, et Bithyniæ, 2secundum præscientiam Dei Patris, in sanctificationem Spiritus, in obedientiam, et aspersionem sanguinis Jesu Christi. Gratia vobis, et pax multiplicetur.
>3Benedictus Deus et Pater Domini nostri Jesu Christi, qui secundum misericordiam suam magnam regeneravit nos in spem vivam, per resurrectionem Jesu Christi ex mortuis, 4in hæreditatem incorruptibilem, et incontaminatam, et immarcescibilem, conservatam in cælis in vobis, 5qui in virtute Dei custodimini per fidem in salutem, paratam revelari in tempore novissimo. 6In quo exsultabis, modicum nunc si oportet contristari in variis tentationibus: 7ut probatio vestræ fidei multo pretiosior auro (quod per ignem probatur) inveniatur in laudem, et gloriam, et honorem in revelatione Jesu Christi: 8quem cum non videritis, diligitis: in quem nunc quoque non videntes creditis: credentes autem exsultabitis lætitia inenarrabili, et glorificata: 9reportantes finem fidei vestræ, salutem animarum. 10De qua salute exquisierunt, atque scrutati sunt prophetæ, qui de futura in vobis gratia prophetaverunt: 11scrutantes in quod vel quale tempus significaret in eis Spiritus Christi: prænuntians eas quæ in Christo sunt passiones, et posteriores glorias: 12quibus revelatum est quia non sibimetipsis, vobis autem ministrabant ea quæ nunc nuntiata sunt vobis per eos qui evangelizaverunt vobis, Spiritu Sancto misso de cælo, in quem desiderant angeli prospicere.
>13Propter quod succincti lumbos mentis vestræ, sobrii, perfecte sperate in eam, quæ offertur vobis, gratiam, in revelationem Jesu Christi: 14quasi filii obedientiæ, non configurati prioribus ignorantiæ vestræ desideriis: 15sed secundum eum qui vocavit vos, Sanctum: et ipsi in omni conversatione sancti sitis: 16quoniam scriptum est: Sancti eritis, quoniam ego sanctus sum. 17Et si patrem invocatis eum, qui sine acceptione personarum judicat secundum uniuscujusque opus, in timore incolatus vestri tempore conversamini. 18Scientes quod non corruptibilibus, auro vel argento, redempti estis de vana vestra conversatione paternæ traditionis: >19sed pretioso sanguine quasi agni immaculati Christi, et incontaminati: 20præcogniti quidem ante mundi constitutionem, manifestati autem novissimis temporibus propter vos, 21qui per ipsum fideles estis in Deo, qui suscitavit eum a mortuis, et dedit ei gloriam, ut fides vestra et spes esset in Deo: 22animas vestras castificantes in obedientia caritatis, in fraternitatis amore, simplici ex corde invicem diligite attentius: 23renati non ex semine corruptibili, sed incorruptibili per verbum Dei vivi, et permanentis in æternum: 24quia omnis caro ut fœnum: et omnis gloria ejus tamquam flos fœni: exaruit fœnum, et flos ejus decidit. 25Verbum autem Domini manet in æternum: hoc est autem verbum, quod evangelizatum est in vos.

>1 Peter 1:1–25

>>25012396
Great concept but
>AI slop

I know latin fairly well already and I want to perfect it before learning another language, I was wondering what the people here think of the impressions people get from the combination of languages you know, if someone knows latin he might seem like a doctor, scientist, or lawyer but if he learns greek too he turns into a religious studies major

>>25012902
99% of people you meet will not care. The 1% do not matter. Stop being insecure
You give me the impression of a faggot

>>25012902
Latin Greek Hebrew is the religious studies trifecta.

Japanese is actually not nearly a weeb signal for people I’ve met, they’re often much more business-oriented people into, like, giving you an elevator pitch about how they can augment the growth of your company at a Christmas party.

My current issue is that I understand the grammar, but it's the vocabulary that's got me. So I can read it, but every second word I need to check up on to make sure I'm right, therefore I can't get into the flow of the language at all. fuk

>>25013503
Read moar

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>Have an exam in a week and a half
>Forget basic shit like olim
It's over bros...

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>>25013503
welcome to intermediate hell

Will learning Ancient Greek enable me to dunk on Emily Wilson with facts and logic?

>>25012364
When did I imply that? I explicitly worded it to not imply that.

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>>25013503
You should consider mnemonic learning, any average person can do it, its not like rote memory its associating words with pictures, the people who do it can perform fantastic feats, the people who introduced it during the middle ages were thought to be sorcerers from the feats they performed

>>25011572
Most of the translations are ugly and useless

>>25013854
Who the fuck is that?

>>25012935
They probably dont care because they think your education choices are uninteresting

>>25014008
hag who has published some heavily shilled new translations of the Iliad and Odyssey(supposedly what Nolan will/is using for his "movie")

>>25011142
Rollan’

>>25006963
Yatoham bhagini ariyāya jātiyā jāto

Nābhijānāmi sañcicca pānam jīvitā voropetā

Tena saccena sotthi te hotu, sotthi gabbhassa

People will with a straight face tell you to read 5000 pages of some redditor’s readers as “comprehensible input” written in a stilted pastiche of learner’s classical latin but to not read anything written by a Christian even though large chunks of it might be comprehensible within months for an English speaker, and it actually gets you into the habit of dealing with the challenges of authentic texts earlier.

>>25014690
>watching Nolan Reddit-slop when the superior Homeric masterwork exists

Ti einai auto! ~

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rkZw0rCou20&list=RDrkZw0rCou20&start_radio=1&pp=ygURTm9zdG9zIGlsIHJpdG9ybm-gBwE%3D

I've finally finished the list of readers I've set out to read from the Reddit spreadsheet!

>>25015109
Lmao I remember that guy.

>>25015131
I really am that guy, or at least one of those guys, and I'm just talking about through the "Beginner and Intermediate Readers" section (which I supplemented with some additional readers), not the entire spreadsheet. I had many stretches where I wasn't doing much Latin, and then many stretches where I didn't feel like reading yet another reader treading over the same stories. In retrospect, I do think it was helpful to add easy reading volume, but trying to complete the spreadsheet for its own sake isn't advisable for most people. Some of the readers listed are probably not worth reading for anyone at any level.

>>25015186
Hey, whatever works for you, I just think it’s silly people get pushback for suggesting the vulgate or patristics (especially when pagan authors from the late period like Ammianus come up). Bet you’re really locked in on the core of the language.

>>25015109
Lol it looks like the creator only intended it to be a reference/lookup tool.

>>25015186
What was your process for going through it? Did you do rereads? What were the best readers? What were the worst? How was Gildersleeve’s reader?

Actually the question about gildersleeve is broader for the general. I know his work is supposed to be very thorough so I was considering his grammar and reader as a way to prove/refine my understanding of grammar.

>>25011142
less go

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>>25011142
Made the unified table. International at the moment so horrible internet. Might mess up the upload since uploading from phone.

>>25015718
So then, for example, because the post with the pic rolled an 18, this roll I will make now will be for the classical table.

>>25015211
I have been reading the Vulgate too, but there might be easier readers more suited to a student's level than "the Vulgate or patristics." Also, certain readers might have vocabulary more targeted to certain purposes, like grooming students to read Caesar.

>>25015214
Maybe so, but I believe this is original u/justinmeister spreadsheet, and it looks like there are more checkboxes checked than not in as far as he made it. It says 1,890,158 words read. If I remember correctly, he said he did this over about a year before quitting Latin to focus on French. That's a commendable amount of work for a year's time.
ttps://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lvtSPiH3AfPcTzHLX5ABl-45MVUPIVxV0ym2ir-1xY8/edit?gid=0#gid=0

>>25015231
I don't think that Gildersleeve's reader was on the spreadsheet I was using. I got my copy of the spreadsheet from here.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TugURNkc0461IQoToKIlE4hnnbRykRYYxvrfl2X90No/edit?gid=0#gid=0

The worst readers were the ones by Mima Maxey, her textbook "A New Latin Primer" and reader "Cornelia." Maybe as used in her classes they were fine, but for someone who's just looking for easy reading material to supplement Familia Romana or another textbook, I don't think they're worth bothering with. Carolus et Maria is similar to those. Pugio Bruti (by Daniel Pettersson of Latinitium.com) was ridiculous and painful to read. I'm not sure I would classify Fabulae Syrae (LLPSI) as among the "worst" because it's a good companion to Familia Romana as far as the language goes, but I just thought the stories in it were mostly boring (disproportionately filled with "One time there was a mortal and a god raped him. The End." type stories).

I enjoyed the readers that did something different, like "Pro Patria" (South Africa) or Nutting's "First Latin Reader" (colonial-era American history, but also some exciting narratives from Caesar). Nutting's "Ad Alpes" was worth reading. Septimus was amusing. Ritchie's Fabulae Faciles has fun myths (Perseus, Hercules, Jason, Odysseus) compared to LLPSI: Fabulae Syrae. Epitome Historiae Sacrae and Fabulae ab Urbe Condita (based off Llhomond's reader) are good. Appleton's readers are good.

What's the "best" reader is going to depend on your level and on what else you're doing to study, but you always want to have reading material that is easy enough that at a minimum you can at least follow the general thread of what's going on--even if you don't understand everything perfectly--without frequent recourse to a dictionary or having to stop and puzzle out the grammar or translate into English. Ideally that easy reading would make up the majority of your study time. As a general rule, I think re-reading a good reader is usually more beneficial than going out and reading a new reader up to a certain point. As long as the reading is not too tiresome and you feel like you're getting something out of it, whether that be acquiring or reinforcing vocabulary, or getting better at parsing various constructions. If something was a stretch read the first time, you will usually get more out of it on re-reads than on the initial read. Also, it's helpful to anchor words to spots in particular books if you know what I mean.

>>25015718
>>25015849
damn, you picked up latin before even finishing the basics of english? respect.

>>25015989
You're supposed to capitalize the first letters of sentences. Hope this helps.

>>25015994
says who

>>25016146
Jesus.

>>25016148
is that why we are told to start with christian latin texts?

>>25016148
i don't think minuscule writing existed in the time of Christ

I'm surprised how hard it is to find ancient Greek learning books at book stores

>>25015994
english is the shower drain of languages where schadenfreude and restauranteur are both real words so the only real grammar rule is do what thou wilt as long as people can understand you and yea it is my native language nigger so I do whatever the fuck I want

faggot

>>25015989
Where even is the missed capitalization?
Algerian font is just all uppercase.

>>25016346
Yes.
>>25016451
That's because no one was following Jesus yet. As his teachings spread so did the cases.

>>25015521
>vermis, quia resurrexit
kek, I guess that was the belief at the time

The criticism that input-alone takes too long is valid in the context of the Latin community because the space is full of dinosaurs who can only imagine using SRS for disconnected vocab out-of-context rather than sample sentences (as people in the Japanese learning space have been doing things for literally 20 years now).

As a result, many input-advocates like that “Magistra Hurt” foid advocate massive amounts of input but often say to avoid stuff like Anki, if they even address it at all, even though Latin is really a relatively easy language for English speakers when it comes to comprehension. Many learners would find their beginner readers much easier and quicker to get through, and would find intermediacy much more bearable, if only they mined i+1 sample sentences regularly. 10 sentences mined from input per day for someone who has already completed the core 2,000-odd words in familia romana in theory would get someone up to a total of roughly 5,650 words down in a year, in the form of 3,650 sample sentences reinforcing core constructions regularly. It’s great technology that’s totally underutilized here, and the premade decks that exist are largely inadequate because they are mere vocab lists and not sentence decks (but the best deck is one you build yourself anyways).

>>25012396
κλῆρον πάλλω*
*ἆρα καὶ ἡμῖν δοκεῖ ἀγαθὴν μετάφρασιν εἶναι τοῦ roll;

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>>25018332
>ἡμῖν
*ὑμῖν

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Has anyone here read it?

>>25017825
Fuck Anki. I hate that stuff. The idea of ever using it is insane.
I'm NEVER going to use technology like that, hear me?
I despise anki so much and all the shills for it. Disgusting smug asshole.

>>25018332
>Aelian's On Animals
quick translation of the first paragraph:
There is an island called of Diomedes, and it has many herons on it; these, they say, neither assault barbarians nor come close to them: but if a Greek guest arrives, by some divine gift they come close with their wings open as if welcoming and embracing them. And if the Greeks touch them they don't flee, but stay calm and bear it, and if they sit, fly into their bosoms, as if invited as guests; it is said that these are the companions of Diomedes and that they were part of the expedition to Troy, who then after changing their appearance to that of birds, to this day still maintain their Hellenic identity and fondness for the Hellenes

>>25018332
>ἆρα καὶ
why does this sound pretentious to me

>>25018829
second paragraph(harder but I think I got the gist of how the method works):
The skaros(some kind of fish) feeds on sea herbs and algae: it is also the horniest of all fishes and its unquenchable thirst for the females is the reason for how it's caught; having noticed this the wisest of fishermen go after him in the following manner: whenever they get their hands on a female, they tie to it a light fishing line made of thread/rope on the top of its mouth and then drag it along the sea alive: they know where they sleep and places they frequent.
A piece of lead is created for them, heavy to drag, spherical, with a length of three digits, and it's fastened with a rope from the top and drags the captured fish. One of the fishermen on the boat sets up a creel wide by the mouth, and this is turned towards the captured skaros: it's then weighted down by a properly sized stone.
At this point then the males, like young men looking at a maiden in her prime, go crazy and run after the female, trying to surpass one another and get closer to caress her, like men mad in love seeking a kiss or caress or some other erotic stratagem.
So you could very well say that the fisherman calmly and cautiously lying in ambush dragging the beloved female fish in front of the creel is leading the lovers. Having entered the creel the fisherman lets go of the lead towards the inside(of the creel): this falling inside of it with the fishing line drags in the female as well and the skaroi are thus captured together, paying the price for their aphrodisiac zeal

>>25018700
Sounds like somebody tried to study vocab in isolation and/or tried to use it to learn novel material instead of reviewing and/or got filtered by basic IT.

>>25018700
A Latinist accusing anyone of being smug is rich. Knowingly insisting students use less efficient methods of study because of some indefinite quality that the rubes that learn more difficult living languages quicker and to a higher level just can’t understand is the essence of smugness.

>>25018700
don't overthink it's usefulness, it's (imho but also others') a side tool to keep fresh whatever it is you are reading organically

>>25019669
Yes exactly, which is why if you have it to either 1. Study individual vocab 2. Introduce new material outright instead of reviewing - then its effectiveness and ease is reduced substantially.

I got some use out of a deck someone made for LLPSI Familia Romana simply because it had tags for chapters, so I could make sure I was always reviewing old material, but it was still a fraction as useful for me as actual sentence cards have been.

The ideal deck for a beginner is something like a sentence deck keyed to a specific textbook like Familia Romana, with sentences being based on first appearance of new vocab. The card itself should be as simple as possible otherwise. Literally just the following.

>Front: Roma in Italia est
>Back: Rome is in Italy
>Tag: Cap1

The main use is getting to quickly review specific vocab in context in a way that will target the stuff you’re struggling with across chapters efficiently and speed up acquisition of new chapters. (Which isolated vocab cards barely help with).

>>25015718
roll

>>25017825
finna mine whatever I don't understand in my 100 words of reading

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Non-Latin speaker here:

Are there many Latin afluents who could break down any interesting quirks of the language as it relates to farming? For example, it is commonly understood that a good portion of English vernacular relates to shipping and sailing, and I wonder if Latin is the same?

>>25018967
>>25019281
If you find Anki helpful, fine, but it's not necessary to post here about it in such an obnoxious manner. You can share your thoughts on Anki and how you use it without denigrating others. I've also tried Anki and I've given up on using it, not because I think it can't be effective, but because I simply don't like using it and didn't find it useful for my purposes.

>>25020529
>without denigrating others
i mean, did you read the post they're replying to?

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Been enjoying Hobbitus Ille although I hardly understand most of the words. Sad that no one has ever translated The Lord of the Rings into Latin. I wouldn't mind it in Anglo-Saxon either. That would be cool.

>>25020527
iirc some of this was done more in detail by Vico, analyze the Latin language to understand the mentality of the ancient Italics, some of it is fairly obvious though like living in a place being equivalent to cultivate it(incolo) or how the very same root gives you cult in the religious sense i.e piety ≈ cultivation of the gods so again an agrarian linguistic analogy, but I've never put much thought into it

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Akkadian doesn't have the verb 'to be'
Lol

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has a latin or greek learner ever produced something so whimsical and yet incisive as this explanation of the 大学? I think not

>>25021100
I don't fucking get it.

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What the fuck, why is Greek so hard to remember?

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>>25021295
skill issue

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Hey, lads, going to be starting two groups this Sunday, Greek and Latin. The Greek will be using the JACT course, so Attic pronunciation, and the Latin will be using the Lingua latina course, which has audio material for both classical pronunciation, and Ecclesiastical pronunciation, whichever you prefer, but mutatis mutandis the course material is identical. If you have any questions let me know because I figure we might as well do it here

There is also a discord if you need resources or something but joining it isn't required to participate
https://discord.gg/XhFGx57VKm

>>25020540
Nowhere can you find more thin-skinned people on this site than /clg/, or people less familiar with board culture in general. I think it’s probably because they come from other places online, like Reddit.

>>25020527
>>25020979
Haha incolo was exactly what occurred to me too.

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I'm learning Latin and I am reaching the end of my textbooks, looking to begin reading actual texts, and I mean actual texts not graded-readerslop. Is Tacitus too much to start with? I'm interested in either reading Germania or the Satyricon, or something else if it would be better. I am not very interested in reading anything by Caesar, and I have already been reading the vulgate.

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>>25022989
yeah Tacitus is kind of a big jump from textbook Latin, but I mean trying doesn't cost anything and everyone has different thresholds on what counts as "reading" before saying "fuck this it's too hard"; the format and themes of Germania I think are also easier to digest than e.g the Annales

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>>25022989
>Presented via the natural method by Hans Ørberg, Petronii Cena Trimalchionis is an abridged and annotated edition of Petronius' Satryrion, with introduction and marginal notes in Latin. This text may be used as a supplemental reader in Hans Ørberg's Lingua Latina per se illustrate series. This can be read by students who have finished the book Lingua Latina per se Illustrata, Familia Romana, Pars I or anyone using the Lingua Latina Ørberg method to learn Latin.

>>25006897
Iulia is so cute, bros.

>>25022989
It’s worth noting that, besides classical authors others will suggest, if you’re already in the vulgate anything in patristic/late Latin is typically a step up in sophistication/difficulty but in a similar style, so it’s a logical progression, and medieval Latin can be remarkably easy.

Bede, Gesta Francorum, etc.

Beeson’s Medieval Latin Reader is a good anthology to acquaint you with some of the greatest texts in a variety of genres. It’s like 300 pages of straight Latin.

>I would make them all learn English; and then I would let the clever ones learn Latin as an honor, and Greek as a treat.
What did Churchill meant by this?

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>>25024242
Hellasbros keep piling Ws

If the letter Η is pronounced like an e, why are words such as ΗΡΟΔΟΤΟΣ anglicized as Herodotus with an h?

>>25024242
>>25024554
He’s literally saying English is necessary, Latin is edifying, and Greek is for fun.

>>25022424
>Attic pronunciation
Actual Attic pronunciation, rather than school-Erasmian?

>>25024688
Because, when written with accents, they have a rough breathing, which indicated initial /h/ (though it's been silent for at least 1500 years now in Greek).

Any recs for a good Nordic and Gaelic dictionaries?

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Translation challenge:

Easy
Jump higher!
Are you going to ask her?
Many kings have ruled this land.

Medium
Dogs like to chase after boars in the woods.
It is said that once upon a time giant bees had enough poison to kill a man.
Would he be willing to take me on his ship, if I were to negotiate for the fee?

Hard
The royal archives recount an episode about an expedition sent by our king's chief of commerce into the deeper unexplored parts of the forest next to the sacred mountain in order to prospect possible sources of iron, and, as it turns out, not only was the party never seen again, but scouts sent to check for signs of their whereabouts returned shocked yet unable to explain their state.

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>Reading Hobbitvs Ille
>Just met Dwalinus

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>>25026113
>bees
*wasps sorry
>ESL moment

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>>25026113
ἀνωτέρω πέδησον!
ἆρα μέλλεις αὐτὴν ἀνερωτᾶν;
πολλοὶ οἱ τῆσδε τῆς γῆς ἄρξαντες βασιλεῖς

ἡδέως ἔχουσιν οἱ κύνες τοὺς ὕας διώκοντες
λέγεται εἶναι πάλαι σφῆκας μεγάλους ὦν ἰὸς ἱκανος ἦν ἄνδρα διαφθείρειν
δέχοιτ' ἄν μ' ἐπιβάτην τῆς πορθμίδος αὐτοῦ ἐὰν μισθοῦ πέρι διαλεγώμεθα;

μῦθον κάτ' ἐν τοῖς βασιλείοις γράμμασιν ἐνόντ' ἐστάλη ποτὲ στόλος ὑπὸ τοῦ βασιλείου ἐμπορονόμου ἐν τἀνεξέταστα τῆς παρὰ τῷ ζαθέῳ ὄρει ὕλης ἵνα μέταλλά που ζητοῖεν, καὶ, ὡς λέγεται, οὐ μόνον τόνδε τὸν στόλον οὐκέτ' εἰς ὄψιν ἔρχεσθαι ἀλλὰ καὶ σκοποὺς ἱχνοσκοπήσοντας τἀκείνων ἐσταλμένους ἐπανελθεῖν ἐκπληττομένους καίτοι μὴ δυναμένους τὴν αἰτίαν φάναι

>>25026130
>read Evangelium Secundum Ioannem for the 4th time
>getting to read Jesus Christ whipping moneylenders for the 16th time

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>>25020624
Don't worry anon, it's coming soon.
https://www.reddit.com/r/latin/comments/1e91loo/salve_amicis_i_have_started_translating_the_lord/

>>25024688
Same reason “have” is pronounced “‘’av” by cockneys

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>>25026467
>salve amicis

>>25020624
>Hobbit or LOTR in Old English
Stop. I can’t handle how happy the idea makes me and how mad I am it remains unrealized. Maybe I’ll need to learn OE just to write it.

Frankly, if someone were to translate LOTR into Latin, and they were some redditor classicist, I would rather it remain untranslated than be butchered by trying to force a Catholic medievalist’s prose into ciceronian periodicals.

If they were well versed in patristic and medieval latin on the other hand it has a chance of being peak, only beaten by the original English or perhaps an OE translation if it were made.

>>25026467
>salve amicis
>people gently him it's a retarded idea
>op gets defensive in comments
>others defend him with accusations of gatekeeping
what a beautiful microcosm

>>25026543
I think A. Z. Foreman translated a couple of the poems from them into OE.

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>>25026538
salve amigos!

>>25024966
Yes, the JACT course has an audio portion, which you can also find under zib on Anna's archive, and they go over all the finer points of Attic as distinct from first-century AD pronunciation and so forth

Hi barbari gentis anglae tacendi et veram discere linguam debent, id est, latinam!

>>25020624
Is it even worth reading? I had picked up a copy years ago before I started studying Latin in earnest. It might be interesting, but if the Latin is doggerel, then I'd rather not.

>>25027143
Archetypicxm Latinxm in /clg/

These ancient greek accent rules go kind of crazy

Looking at textbooks in the Mega links above, is there a general consensus on which are best for self-study? A friend and I are looking at the JACT books, but my eye was also caught by Smith & Melluish - no idea which if any are memes &c.

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>>25026113
altius sali!
rogabisne eam?
multi fuere reges huius terrae

libenter consectantur apros in silva canes
narratur fuisse olim magnarum genus vesparum quibus satis veneni inerat homini interimendo
copiamne faceret mihi navem suam conscendendi si de mercede ageremus?

memoratur apud rerum gestarum tabularium missos a regio praefecto negotiis faciundis in ignotas silvarum plagas iuxta sacrum montem qui explorarent metalla ferraria sed, ut fama est, non modo eos omnino e conspectu abiisse sed speculatores qui eorum vestigia perscrutarentur missos rediisse pavore perculsos attamen rationem reddendi inertes

>>25027225
Tace, barbare!

>>25027143
Salve amigos!

I’m translating dragonzballz z into ciceronian style!

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reveni a tabernis, amici. diem totum ninxit et adhuc ninguit. non possum cenam calidam exspectare. nivem amo, sed perones mei nivem non amant.

>>25028938
Mixi in calceos tuos, domine.

>>25028834
salve, lusófono!

based gigachadus!

>>25028938
cave, amice! aliqui barbarus in calceaminibus tuis mingere vult, aut iam minxit

>>25029111
mox dominum videbis, stulte scurra.
>>25029159
calcei mei boni sunt, illi madidi, frigidi et sordidi sed nive pluviaque, et non urina.

>>25029246
te felicem! sed barbaris cave mingerentibus!

>>25029317
gratias tibi et bene quiescas. mundus mingetores nimis habet.

>>25029359
gratias quoque tibi, etiam bene quiescas. et quod ad mundum attinet, certe dixisti. CAVEAMVS MINGETORIBVS!

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licetne mihi sententiam dicere, nam nemo adhuc scripsit? quis cives civisque est?

>>25030419
sum barbarus sed barbarus discipulus. volo noscere hanc linguam sed taedet.

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>>25030419
vir qui mingetores valde odit

>>25030441
hic barbarus non sum, dicere linguam latinam non mihi taedet

supra 'discere' dicere volui, non 'dicere' dicere

>>25010066
The Greek language has a larger vocabulary and offers a lot of flexibility for expressing ideas. There are many ways to say the same thing in Greek and it really depends on what aspect you want to emphasize. I would also say that Greek is more 'fluid' while English is more 'solid' in terms of Grammar and Syntax. The rules are so fundamentally different that most of the time the intent is lost or misinterpreted in translation. Also standardized modern demotic Greek is recent and suffers from oversimplification. Even I, a native speaker, sometimes find it a bit difficult to read texts from Byzantium or Koine greek or Classic greek.

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>>25010066
στίχους τοῦ δίου ποιητοῦ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν ἵν' ἔχῃς γηρύειν τι γλώσσῃ 'τοῖμον οὖ νοεῖν αὐτοῖς οὐκ ἔστιν
πολλοὺς ἐγῷδ' ἐκμεμαθηκὼς τῆς αὐτῆς αἰτίας ἕνεκα

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my favourite thing about learning cc is being able to read stuff like this, just random memorials to the emperor where the emperor himself corrects how you call yourself lmao (use 臣 instead of 奴才)
for absolute corpus size, Classical Chinese is unmatched. It was the sole written language in China from Shang times (1000bc) to the end of the Qing in 1910 so has almost 3000 years' worth of texts
whereas Latin has less than 1000

>>25030536
how does attic prose feel like to a native speaker? is it comparable to a fluent english speaker reading Chaucer or much more difficult?

>>25030744
Let's say for example Plato's Timaeus.
I recognize 95% of the words but most of the time I can't combine them together to form a full sentence. It's hilarious, it reads like nonsense to me. I need a modern translation to understand his work otherwise I am stuck trying to parse even the simplest sentences. In contrast, I can comprehend fully the first chapter of Genesis without any help. Many people struggled with katharevouza, a formal dialect for literature, science and law. Personally I like it a lot and feels like a good start to understand the language's evolution better but everyone has stopped using it since 1976. Saddest thing is that the educational system has failed us and many people struggle to write correct sentences even in demotiki.

>>25030842
Isn't the Septuagint only 200 years later than Plato?

>>25020540
Someone (maybe you) submitted a post to this message board, extolling the virtues of Anki. Fine, but he clearly has a chip on his shoulder over "Redditors" and "Latinists" and sees himself as some kind of victim. I don't care if he finds Anki useful, but I mostly agree with >>25018700. If someone wants to argue about "classicucks" vs. "ankichads," fine, but don't play the victim while posting (as aptly described) "smug" comments to this bulletin board, addressed to no one in particular, and act surprised when you get called out on it.

>The Ankitard is immunized against all dangers, etc.

>>25030842
katharevousa does sound like an interesting project, sad it didn't succeed
i've heard of an angloid classicist (dekaglossai on youtube) who still recommended learning dimotiki and then ancient greek after, because the learning resources for a major modern language are so much better than for classical languages. and because dimotiki is still almost uniquely close to its ancestor, as compared to other classical languages and their descendants. my compliments to you for your patrimony.

>>25030723
To defend Latin a bit here, Latin has a little under 2000 years of texts. Medieval Latin is still Latin. Still falls short of classical Chinese, but my impression is that pre-qin texts are rare.

>>25031074
Yes but Plato spoke in the Attic dialect and he goes much more in depth in his reasoning when he starts speaking about The Utimate Creator, why there exists only 1 universe, the structure of matter, the concept of Energy and how they are all combined to form time and space, movement, planets and living organisms. Genesis is written in Koine Greek, a simplier dialect, and uses plain sentences that boil down to 'it exists because God said so and he liked it'

>>25031074
Septuagint is a simple Greek language translation of a Hebrew original text whereas Timaeus is a Greek original metaphysics book. They’re not even same wavelength.

>>25032089
So it's a combination of being very old + being complicated? Like the Koine is old but simple enough you can decipher it whereas Timaeus, maybe you would be able to understand it if it were Euphythro but because it's so original and convoluted that makes parts of it incomprehensible?

>>25032206
Ok but in modern English obviously two texts like that would have interintelligible grammar, and just be at different levels of reading. If I can read the ESV Genesis I can read FH Bradley.

>>25032393
I haven't read Euphythro but I guess I could understand some sentences If I really focused. It takes practice and I don't read ancient texts often. The more back I go the more awkward reading feels because a lot of words are not used much anymore. 'γαρ' for instance appeared everywhere even in Byzantine prayers but today no one uses it and I don't know how to describe it. The dative case is also dropped in demotic and appears only in specific folk sayings so I had to do my own research to understand when it is supposed to be used. It's all familiar in the end but very out of common communication

>>25032206
>Septuagint is a simple Greek language translation of a Hebrew original text whereas
Untrue.

>>25030723
Almost entirely compromised.

>>25032938
"Compromised" in what sense?

>>25030723
how standardized are we talking about? is, say, 500BC vs 1000AD CC comparable to e.g Cicero vis-a-vis Leibniz?

>>25034178
Because Chinese characters are unconnected to pronunciation, how the language was spoken changed a lot but how it was written didn't change very much at all. At most some grammatical function words were added or lost or changed meaning. Pre-200bc works can get a lot more creative with grammar and use some uncommon words but after the Qin dynasty (200bc to 1900) how CC was written changed very little.
I'm not very familiar with post-Roman Latin so idk how to compare it to CC

>>25031569
If we're talking pure volume then cc probably has Latin beat as well. China invented paper-making and has a very strong tradition of textual transmission.

>>25034824
You're probably right about volume, but I'm not certain, since the volume of Medieval, Renaissance, and Neo-Latin is immense. If you cut Latin off at the Middle Ages you'd definitely be right (the classical Latin corpus is tiny), but early modern Europe was more literate than China, while not having a population all that much smaller.

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>>25033840
The sense that China had to shut down dozens of museums over the last three decades for a rampant forgery industry.

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>>25030723
>whereas Latin has less than 1000
Latin was the language of Europe until the rise of liberal republics. Even fucking Hungary had Latin as an official language until the 19th century.

>>25035101
>>25035103
Nothing about chinks is authentic. They are all fraudsters.

>>25030723
CC doesn’t run as a mutually intelligible script straight back to the Shang. It runs to the classical Zhou period, or 5-3rd century BC.

It’s remarkable continuity but don’t pretend it’s like a thousand years longer than Latin.

>>25035211
*language, not script

I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS I HATE DECLENSIONS

>>25035422
you may hate them but they make the language look cool

declensions <3

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>>25035085
>early modern europe more literate than China
for a period of about 400 years from 1300 to 1700, yes, but prior to the renaissance China likely had a higher literacy rate than Europe. All officials had to pass exams in the classics, and there were extensive systems of formal education that Europe lacked until the 1500s.
>population
Yes, China and Europe were usually similar in population, with China usually being ahead. But eastern orthodox countries like Russia rarely used Latin, and not only China but Korea Japan and Vietnam all wrote extensively in classical Chinese as well.

some other reasons that CC probably has the larger corpus:
>early invention of woodblock printing in China
>Chinese never had to contend with other vernaculars
>Chinese never had to contend with another literary language (i.e. latin and greek)
>Chinese was also used for poetry and (later) literature whereas Latin poetry sucked

>>25035211
erm yes it does, we can read inscriptions from Shang bronzes today with a little effort, not much more than is required to read the earliest latin texts (those using the etruscan alphabet). The oracle bones are a bit harder but when rendered into modern characters a contemporary reader of CC could understand them.
The book of songs (詩經) also contains texts from the very beginning of the Zhou dynasty in 1000-900bc

>>25035565
I read a paper on medieval culture and one of the lords from medieval Europe was complaining that women were distributing his enemies pamphlets and gossiping about him. The implication is that medieval women were literate. Not that liberals will ever admit to it.

>>25035652
What specific time and place? Interesting but it makes sense that after a certain period basic literacy among reasonably wealthy people should become fairly common, or at least more common than the stereotypes. But like, what we think of as medieval europe spans the entire period from at least Charlemagne up to like Henry V of England (to use arbitrary and intentional conservative boundaries).

But I do remember reading in the Vita Karoli Magni that even a king as early as Charlemagne made a serious effort to learn to read, considering it important, but was just too old and busy when he started to manage it, which indicates to me that possibly more kings were literate than just accidental kings like Henry I of England (who was originally destined for the priesthood and educated as such).

>>25035694
I also recall that, according to legend, the reason Alfred the Great could read was because his mother (who presumably could read) offered a book of saxon poetry to whichever of her sons became literate first, and Alfred managed it first. He actually produced a lot of the most important translations from Latin into Old English like the Wessex Gospels.

>>25035694
>But I do remember reading in the Vita Karoli Magni that even a king as early as Charlemagne made a serious effort to learn to read, considering it important, but was just too old and busy when he started to manage it, which indicates to me that possibly more kings were literate
All of the nobility was literate. You can even lookup letters of medieval women online at the Columbia website. They go back to the 8th century.

>>25035422
DECLINATIONES AMO, TANTVM BARBARI EAM ODERVNT

>>25035101
Doesn't mean the texts of that antiquity are all made up, and a competent philologist could tell on linguistic grounds which ones are.

>>25035734
>EAM

>>25032935
Are you the anon who believes the Bible was originally written in Aramaic?

>>25014052
I majored in Classics so there you go

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Care Jonas:

Cum regnum tuum constituisset Praemium Nobelianum Pacis denegare mihi, qui PLUS quam octo bella finirem, iam non de pace tantum cogitare opus esse credo. Cogitatio autem pacis semper praestabit, at nunc quid sit bonum propriumque Civitatibus Foederatis Americae curare possum. Dania terram illam tueri a Russia Sinaque nequit, et qua de causa “ius possessionis” haberent illi? Nulla sunt scripta foedera, navicula tantum olim ibi evenit. At nostrae quoque naves ibi evenerunt. Equidem pro NATO ab origine plus quam omnes feci; nunc autem NATO pro Civitatibus Foederatis Americae aliquid faciat. Orbis terrarum non est tutus nisi nos omnino Groenlandia potimur. Gratias ago tibi.

Praesidens Donaldus J. Trumpus.

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>>25037625
tune octo bellis finem imposuisti? ain vero rutile dynaste? non sedecim aut pluribus? quod incolas rectricesque Europae loco maenadium cerritarum habitos reprehendisti vi leonina vero laudis dignum, eorum habendi sunt qui nisi colaphis paulo huc paulo illuc proruti sint e somno non excitabis quamquam maxime istosce oporteat cum res ita orbe terrarum se habeant

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>>25037625
ODM! ipse ille.. illic.. noster praesidens? alium nuntium
tabulae nuntiae fixit? incredibilis. quid iam legevi?

>>25037625
Non mentiar, quodam Trumpo fautor hic. Maxime ridiculum est spectans Trumpum confringere atque uri. Remoto ioco, non possumus pati istum hominem acquirere nucelares tesseras.

>>25037124
EAS, LAPSVS FVIT

>>25037625
This was posted less than 2 hours after a translation of the very same Trump post was posted to the LLPSI discord.

Either it’s the same person, or someone who took the idea and made a funnier translation with it, or just minds coming to the same joke.

I lurk both. I am coming out of lurking to point this out and will return to lurking immediately.

the CC vs Latin corpus thing made me think, did China like the modern west "abandon" its classical counterpart insofar as official usage? how does it work there?

>>25038753
Yes. It’s gone. But since you can read CC characters with mandarin pronunciation (i guess people do this in english anyways) it has a pretty enduring cultural impact and is pretty widely studied.

>>25038753
It stopped being the standard written language in the early 20th century, but people still learn to read it in school, and there are still a few hobbyists writing in it.

>>25038806
>>25038866
sad, the 20th century might very well be known for the century of break off from the classics, I guess the situation in India might not be much different, perhaps the arab world still somewhat clings to it

>>25010066
ChatGPT told me that realistically probably just a few dozen people worldwide can actually speak Ancient Greek.

>>25040469
Huh, I guess I'm pretty lucky to be friends with one of them then.

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*excitat /clg/ clamore Martio*

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anna's archive down for y'all as well?

Did Catilina really sat there for an hour hearing Cicero tell everyone that they should've killed him long ago?

>>25044123
he wanted all the smoke

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anyone else using the CIA method to learn Latin or Greek?

>>25012396
rolling again

>>25044567
Lmao the CIA method is just the FSI/DLI isn’t it? It’s not magic, I spoke to a field agent IRL once at a recruiting event at my UNI and I believe he said he did Farsi via FSI.

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>>25044620
>Κεφ. ιβ'. περὶ Σατυριάσεως
>Οἱ σάτυροι τοῦ Διονύσου ἱεροὶ ἐν τῇσι γραφῇσι καὶ τοῖσι ἀγάλμασι ὄρθια ἴσχουσι τὰ αἰδοῖα, ξύμβολον τοῦ θείου πρήγματος. ἔστι δὲ καὶ πάθεος ἰδέη, ἀνίσχοντος ὄρθια τοῦ πάσχοντος τὰ αἰδοῖα· ἐπίκλησις σατυρίησις ἐς ὁμοιότητα τοῦ θεοῦ σχήματος.

τε καί freaks' status: bodied
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5CUiP5oiH0

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Don't forget to "blanda upp," Quirites, hehehe.

>>25044123
CATILINA MOGGATVS EST MAXIME

>>25045581
He's just wrong here though. That te comes from two different pathways into ancient Greek, and neither of them directly mean the same as kai.

>>25035422
word-order hate I

Are there any didactic books on HOW to learn a language. I tried Latin and I failed. I tried Koine Greek and I failed. I tried German and I failed. Nothing sticks and it has to be because my method of learning is ineffective.

>>25046063
>method of learning
uhhhh just follow the textbook? the hard part is actually committing to doing it every day for a long period of time, you can't have your expectations too high either

>>25046145
While no textbook is perfect, no textbook is equal either, and some undoubtedly are structured and set up better than others. So I do not agree with your initial assessment. But everyday practice is essential.

>>25046063
I’ve heard very good things about Fluent Forever.

>>25046245
sure, but I see it more as a race where whether using a motorbike or a tricycle you can still get to the end, people quit, imho, rather because of failure to manage realistic expectations i.e they think they are doing it wrong or they are not fit for it because they expected major results too quickly and maybe aren't even being consistent with their study, and this feeling of failure in turn makes things worse

>>25046063
Maybe you could post what you were doing to try to learn these languages, what your expectations were, and why you think you "failed" (other than that you presumably gave up and quit).

>>25046421
Agreed. I suspect this is more a case of faulty expectations than ineffective learning techniques.

>>25037625
>Cum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fswNhbiOLI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQR6FzduRO8&t=19s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw5LrNWgWJQ

In any case, I wish I was as good at this shit as you autists are. Just started getting more serious with Athenaze so wish me luck anon. Learning moonrune in tandem so the progress will be slow. Goal is to eventually start crawling through the Loeb library of Greek texts.

>>25046421
>>25046509
I've had Greek classes in the past and none of them have been particularly successful despite being very intensive. Some master them and make steady progress, but I was not one of those people. Did my exam, scored quite poorly, despite using the textbook and having well over ten hours of Greek a week with lectures.
I think I "failed" because my acquisition rate rose at an incredibly slow speed and certain concepts, particularly in grammar and syntax refused to be absorbed, no matter how often I went through them. The fact that it's a dead language makes learning often feel very artifical, setting up exercises and breaking down concepts by root. It's a struggle.

how do you get used to reading texts with no punctuation? including no spaces

>>25046421
>>25046509
>>25046755
I've been able to read Latin for fifteen years but I can't compose in it.

>>25046755
I see, I'd put class learning in another basket though simply because of the time constraints for the exam, we don't learn things all at the same rate and it's fine, I myself took my sweet time to learn Greek and go through Athenaze, months and months but precisely because time wasn't a constraint and if I didn't feel a chapter was truly digested I simply did it again with no worries about deadlines

>>25046980
what do you mean by composing? you can compose colloquial phrases, right?

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>>25046980
they are two different skills per se but reading comprehension should translate to at least some compositional ability

>>25047120
*should*
But not really. Probably because Latin is so syntactically alien from the Germanic languages. Even now it's like reading a puzzle. I don't have that problem reading Kazakh, which should theoretically be much more foreign in dissection.

There was a leading opponent of reading Latin extensively and proponent for grammar-translation who lived in the late 1800s and he confessed that after 40 years of study he found Latin “difficult, very difficult” to read.

>>25046980
How quickly can you read?

>>25047310
Very quickly. I could finish a page of the NT about as fast as I read in English. The Historia Augusta about the same. If I open up to a random page of Lucretius it's a little slower, because he talks about random things, and for that same reason it takes me a little bit to catch onto what Aulus Gellius is talking about at a random opening. The posts in this general usually take me the longest, they seem to be constructed in a very stilted way.

>>25047403
But, the problems appear in thick syrupy syntax used in later Latin. Forgot to add this, but when I was reading 19th century free form and commentaries it was a serious struggle because the way the classes are nested within one another. Latin conjunctions and prepositions have a strong tendency to favor a kind of Spartan speech style so the attempts at becoming flowery exact a heavy toll. That and some of the obscure participles will throw me off when I don't expect them. It takes me a long time to slog through those commentaries. Too many adjectives when you boil it all down.

>>25047502
*Clauses,not classes

Clauses are nested several times over and often out of conventional sequence by 19th century Latinists. They also keep posting viiii as 9 instead of ix and that makes me angry.

>>25047502
>>25047506
They were compensating and trying to show off.

>>25046755
I second what >>25046991 said. Go at your own pace. Classes teach what they teach, which may or may not have very much to do with getting good at reading Greek, and even if they are focused on practical skills, they don't require enough work hours to get to anything like "mastery." I took several years of Latin classes in school and got good grades, and even the outside exams like the NLE, AP exams, SAT II (the exams I remember taking in high school here in the US) hardly tested meaningful proficiency in the language. It's only after I got out of school and started working on it on my own that I feel like I've started to accomplish something.

It's also a mistake to assume that you master the language by learning a list of grammar rules one by one, and that once all the rules are checked off, you've mastered the language. Grammar is just a tool, and you don't need to know all the grammar perfectly to engage with real texts. If you're learning Koine Greek to read the New Testament, you don't have grades and exams to worry about. Measure your progress by how well you understand the New Testament, and how your ability to understand it improves over time.

>>25047196
I believe you are thinking of this quote (bottom of pic related), attributed to Charles E. Bennett. The picture is from the Teacher's Manual for William Most's "Latin by the Natural Method" course, which is, I assume, where you probably encountered it.

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>>25047913
Forgot to attach the pic.

>>25047525
nah you low iq brain cant even begin to think in refined LA-TAHN

>>25047916
It's oversaturated, not refined.

This paper is interesting (relevant to the discussion ITT) because it givessome concrete details about how (elite) 19th century British students studied classics in school. This table shows these high schoolers (in US terms) spent about 19 classroom hours a week on classics, and then I suppose they were supposed to spend a similar amount of time outside of class with private tutors or studying independently, so they treated it like a full time job.

https://tcl.camws.org/sites/default/files/TCL%2012.1%20Keeline%20Final%20Draft.pdf

Point being, if you're not treating Latin or Greek like a full time job over many years, don't grumble if you're not as good as a British schoolboy.

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>>25047983
Forgot the picture again.

>>25047932
you can neither parse parse nor think a sentence as long as this. it's over.

>>25047915
Yeah it’s a hilarious quote so I remembered it roughly.

>>25047983
The data on their actual abilities is kind of amazing. Literal middle schoolers with better Latin than the bulk of current PHDs (which makes sense because they were grinding for several hours a day from the age of 8).

>>25046910
Justp
racti
cebro

>>25047983
I feel like fifteen years is a long time. Other languages don't take as long. Compare how quickly people can pick up German. I spent only two semesters in college on it and it took me past six years of Latin at that point.
>>25047998
Brevity is the soul of wit.

>>25047983
>*Gasp* only whites and mostly men were interested in the classics, what a barbaric time we ought never to go back to
>Qualitative discussion without any quantification whatsoever, doesn't fully address quality levels
>Uses Mary Beard's public address as a yardstick of pre-modern success
>Finishes by calling for comprehensible input and colloquialisms first
>Personal pronouns used throughout, even "I"
This was painfully post modern. How someone could write like this without an ounce of self awareness?

>>25048366
buticantpracticeihavetolearnhowtoreadlikethisrightfuckingnowbecausemydissertationisaboutatopicwhichonlyhasprimarysourcesthatarewrittenlikethisandihavetoreadliketwohundredpagesofthemanditssomuchharderwhenitsnotinenglish

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>Ὀδύσσειαν πάλιν ἀναγιγνωσκέμεν ἦρξα

>>25006897
Are Xenophon's Memorabilia and Plato's Republic good books to read over and over again in order to improve my Greek, or am I going to pick up some bad habits?

>>25048444
Some languages are going to be naturally easier to learn than others. Aside from that, did you study German and Latin using the same methods or different methods? As a modern language, German also has more resources, especially audio resources, compared to Latin.

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>>25048988
can't see how you could go wrong with those two authors, they are maybe as paradigmatic as they come for clear Attic prose

>>25011142
>>25015718
Rolling

>>25048988
>am I going to pick up some bad habits?
no, what the hell??

>>25049074
I had one textbook for German,which I did not use, and an incomplete workbook. The rest was done in class or ad hoc looking up things online. My collection of Latin Loebs and readers dwarfs it. I learned to count in German in a day, whereas it took me a week to learn Latin numbers. If I hear a Latin speaker record numbers it has to be slow but I can listen to Germans machine gun numbers out just fine.

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Anyone doing Syriac here?

>>25046910
youjusthavetogetagoodenoughmentalmodelofthelanguagethatyoucanautomaticallytellwherethewordandclausebreaksgoyoucanprobablyreadthisrightmaybeitscomingabitslowerthannormalspacedandpunctuatedtextwouldbutibetyouunderstoodit

>>25048695
trysoundingthetextoutloud

>>25049512
>>25049524
I can read this perfectly silently because I have a very clear inner monologue so I just read aloud in my head.

Has anyone on this thread learned Sanskrit? I am very motivated but don't know how to go about it.
With all the other languages, I would simply read with the help of a dictionary until it "clicked."
But Sanskrit is such a monumental language that I'm sure I'll need a bit more than that.

>>25049819
Sanskritanons are rare, I think one popped up few threads ago

>>25049938
If Sanskrit is rare then I will have no hope with Syriac.

>>25049949
closest anon who probably knows something about Syriac would be Ethiopianon he shows up sometimes and made the ANE mega with resources but last time it was last year

>>25049819
I spent some time learning it when I was younger, got to the point where i could muddle through some texts. My life got busier after and I dropped it.
It's nothing too special, neither the vocabulary nor the morphology felt like a significantly larger burden than Latin or Greek. There's less of a foothold in the vocabulary from familiar derivative words for any of us westerners, you just have to grind it. Sometimes sandhi in compound words obscures the components. Some genres of Sanskrit texts (plays namely) will randomly break into Prakrit, which is confusing.

>>25050077
I also want to say that Devanagari is really fun to learn to read and write. I wish we had a writing system where the graphemes playfully mingled together like that.

>>25049819
>With all the other languages, I would simply read with the help of a dictionary until it "clicked."
How long did this take and how far did you get? You’re telling me you literally sat down with a copy of Caesar and a dictionary, not even a grammar, and just went a word at a time until it broke into fluent reading? I know that’s possible I’ve just never met anyone that claimed to have done it, let alone in multiple languages.

I've read that Latin is easy to pick up as a readable language and won't actually interfere with other tongues you might be learning. Is that correct? I was given a copy of Wheelock's latin and decided to poke around, given I'm currently trying to hammer b2 Norwegian into my skull.

>>25050496
>won't actually interfere with other tongues
makes sense
>easy to pick up as a readable language
eh, I wouldn't say that, not necessarily, I've often heard and experienced as well how the learning curve for the language doesn't flatten so quickly, different registers can be challenging if you are used to a certain style, plus you have literature spanning millennia ergo the lexicon itself is varied

>>25050280
>You’re telling me you literally sat down with a copy of Caesar and a dictionary, not even a grammar, and just went a word at a time until it broke into fluent reading?
I'm not sure this "method" would work with complex languages such as Latin. In my case, I learned relatively "easy" modern languages (English, Spanish and French) -- my wording could have been better. Regarding grammar, I didn't study it systematically, although every once in a while I'd look up a brief explanation on a particularly confusing structure.

>How long did this take?
It's hard to say exactly when I got to a level where I felt satisfied with my reading skills; in total, I dedicated to each language from six to eighteen months of intensive "study". But I'm always reading something in one of these languages, so it's an ongoing process.

>how far did you get
My goals were never otherworldly, so to speak. I just wanted to get access to primary and secondary sources in topics that were of my interest at certains points of my life. When it comes to this rather limited area, I'd say I was successful: I can read academic papers and nonfiction books comfortably, although I still have to lookup definitions from time to time. As I didn't use literary fiction as my main source of language acquisition, it probably remains challenging for me.
Of course, my listening and speaking skills are virtually non-existent; I can write, but quite imperfectly, as you can see.

>I know that’s possible I’ve just never met anyone that claimed to have done it
There are some communities out there that approach language learning from an immersion-based and reading-focused perspective (especially if the target language is Japanese). A particularly fascinating case is that of jazzy, interviewed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv234kZdBgs&t=798s.

>>25051102
There’s a world of difference between an AJATTer mining 10,000 anki sentences AND watching a ton of japanese, and literally sitting down with nothing but a dictionary, which is what you said you did.

>>25051265
I used Anki for learning vocabulary, which, as Jazzy said, is incredibly easy with the tools we currently have.
I don't see how reading a lot deviates from the guidelines of a massive immersion approach.
I don't understand your emphasis on listening: as I said, I just wanted to read, not consume audivisual content.

>>25051305
>I would simply read with the help of a dictionary until it "clicked."
Is an unusual and grindy method and really impressive to brag about.

>I used Anki for learning vocabulary,
>reading a lot
Is a common and much more normal method. Your statement earlier was that you learned multiple languages with nothing but a dictionary, not using a spaced repetition program to review vocabulary.

You’re just making contradictory statements is all.

Do Latin and Greek usually attract people with autism?

>>25051565
Yea, and exaggerating braggarts.

>>25051649
>exaggerating braggarts
Why the fuck would people lie about being literate in Latin or Ancient Greek? Surely they can’t be so delusional to think that people will think they’re smart if they’ve wasted hours of their precious time learning a dead language to read dead people… Right?

>>25050976
Not a '30 minutes reading a day for a year and you too can scream racial slurs' like French, then. Thanks. I'll give it a whirl all the same and see how my vocab develops. Something to take the edge off my reeing at this disgusting fisk language.

>>25051565
from personal experience most people i know who have studied greek are pretty cool and well adjusted people. latin on the other hand...

>>25051892
IRL, yes; online, no.

>>25051660
Kek

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we latinists are the most discriminated race, even more than gamers

>>25051892
>latin
I don't speak latin. From the two people I know who do, one does it because he likes to read old books in the original tongue without paying for translations and thinks they're funny. He's also a huge fan of old travelogues for some reason.

The other is a fart huffer. I'm going to assume this is a perfectly representative sample of the population of latin speakers at large.

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>>25051565

Not sure if this has been asked before, but does anyone have a recording of quantitative meter being recited by someone whose native language has vowel length?

>can read latin
>cant read greek
>supposed to read the greeks first
>cant progress into Italian now
fuck my goy life now I have to wait even more till I know Grec

>>25006897
Is it just me or are the tragedians the most difficult of Greek authors?
I'm having a hard time with Aeschylus. It reads like a different language compared to the clear Attic of Isocrates, Plato and Xenophon. Admittedly, I haven't yet read Pindar.

>>25053462
I've only read Sophocles and it's not too bad imho(i.e the language) but I've heard about the reputation of Aeschylus as being the hardest, haven't tried reading him yet.
Pindar is very hard, I sort of drudged through about a dozen Olympic odes and it's not just the language(on top of being Doric) it's also all the references and general knowledge required to keep up with the context he takes for granted, plus I still can't into lyric meters.

Tum vero, postquam solitas accessit ad iras
causa recens, plenis tumuerunt guttura venis,
spumaque pestiferos circumfluit albida rictus,
terraque rasa sonat squamis, quique halitus exit

>It added new reasons to his usual anger
What kind of shit fucking poetry is this? Why do we care about this guy? Fuck I hate Ovid

>>25046980
When you say "compose" do you mean just a simple sentence?

>>25053462
What are you reading from Aeschylus? I found Agamemnon to be pretty difficult but very fun as well.

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>>25006963
Any tips for learning Sanskrit in addition to just using a text book?

Any anons ever learn Hebrew?... I learned the alphabet, niqqud, and basic words. I've been between that so I can read the Bible (even if it were rewritten by Masoretes), and French and German which they say is good for classical scholarship. I don't know if that's a meme though.

I'd probably focus on German and French if it's important. I don't think I'll ever be super good at Hebrew.

>>25055858
yeah German tbqh often feels kinda like you are already learning a new classical language in the making, I learned some too with the goal of moving to a German speaking country but unless you actually do their modern content is meh and what they have written in the past is usually the more interesting part

>>25056627
>a new classical language in the making
I think that's just being a proper language, as an American we have no idea how raped of a language English is compared to real Germanic languages, and our second most common language, Spanish is barely any better.
If you haven't already, look into the theory that English is a creole.
I know German and Latin aren't conlangs or ursprache, but they have the complex but consistent rules that makes a language *seem* pure.

>>25012902
>>25012936
Modern intelligentsia doesn't know Latin and weebs don't know Japanese. The barrier for entry to either of those is so low that the average person in them doesn't have the capacity.
Americans don't learn a language unless they really need it for something, which is business for living languages, or academics for dead languages.

>>25006897
Thoughts on really archaic Latin textbooks? It's not like they get outdated.
https://archive.org/details/bim_eighteenth-century_an-introduction-to-the-l_alvarez-emmanuel_1707

>>25056707
interesting style with the direct question + answer, I assume these would not be for self-learning but to be used in a class, I wouldn't mind these as booklets even for people who are past the textbook stage per se yet sometimes need to peek for a quick reference

>>25056707
I use Comenius’s works

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>ἀλλ' ὅτε δὴ μέλλεν Ἀϊδόσδε τὸ νῆμα βεβήκειν
>ὑψόσε σεῦες ἐπαΐξας ῥυσινῆματε δῖε

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new Lukino dropped
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpXD0kdKsNc

>>25058823
This guy will deliver a half hour speech fully in Latin without just reading a pre-written speech and discord latinists will still hate on him

ChatGPT is helping me learn Ancient Greek but I fear that it's just making shit up and I would have no great way of knowing

>>25059124
This board dropped links to greek classes taught by a professor. Find that and learn from there.

>>25059124
I've witnessed it making shit up when asking about looking up certain syntactical expression(e.g give me some examples of X type of construction from the literature) and even persisting when questioned about it, so meh, I would be careful
but at least when it comes to Greek -> English translation it seems to do fine

>>25059124
ive tried using some ai on some other obscurer ancient language and told it to do strict grammatical correctness on certain features but somehow it still fell back to the current contemporary form of the language; basically yeah, in my experience the less known the language the more things it said just for the sake of saying - just my own personal experience though.
on another note, with latin btw i told the ai to strictly use macrons always yet it somehow always 'forgets' it, just like a human would, because the voluminous texts that i know it learnt from dont use the macrons, so it still falls back into the habit, just like a human would.
i feel like with these languages (ones rarer than latin at least) one probably needs to set the ai from the ground up from scratch, feed it the books one by one, and not depend on the company's internet scraped knowledges, and make the ai iteration one's personal own

>>25055772
have u had experience yet with any latin or greek? memorized any of either's declensions or conjugations? read either's sentence up to participles and non-indicative verbs? if none of any of these sanskrit might seem insane to you. sure you can just jump right in, but learning some latin or greek to a certain point gives u a pretty rough idea and gestalt on how this crazy ancient languages work, and u know what to expect and navigate because u have the two as rough bases. but do

>>25055858
a book by some guy called 'choon-leong seow' seems alright

>>25056627
it feels like High German circa 16th - e. 20th century, before nazi retards began cracking down on artistic expression and then lost a war that caused the allies to castrate German soft power, is going to be considered a classical/literary language, since the germs haven't produced anything worth listening to or even reading in the last 70 years. The language is also currently undergoing a rapid period of "evolution" in the form of migrant dialects, that are being picked up by retarded german gen zalphas btw, and the mass introduction of English-like constructions and words, which'll eventually result in nu-High German that's primarily isolating with a large number of Arabic, English and Turkish vocab, so basically English if it was influenced by brown 3rdies and not great western civilisations
German culture is effectively dead and has been dead for decades, it's undeniably grim

>>25060750
I suppose German opera is gonna be one way that will survive.

子貢曰:「如有博施於民而能濟眾,何如?可謂仁乎?」
子曰:「何事於仁!必也聖乎!堯舜其猶病諸!夫仁者,己欲立而立人,己欲達而達人。能近取譬,可謂仁之方也已。」
what did Confucius mean by this?

>>25061293
Bing bong ching chong me ruv orange chicken

>>25061293
tips for learning classical chinese? I need to learn it for some specific readings but I dont know where to start.

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>>25058630
just realized it's ῥῡσι- not ῥῠσι-, the meter is broken, the post collapsed, it's over

>>25006897
Regarding ancient Greek:
Is there some table where you can find what case each verb, or maybe each group of verbs, takes? Preferably printable.

Such as: καλῶ, takes two accusatives
>Καλοῦσιν αὐτοὺς νομοθέτας

>>25062467
would be nice but aside from checking on LSJ I never encountered a table

>>25061494
Not that anon but I like A New Practical Primer of Literary Chinese the best but I feel like it's a bit deficient in explaining certain grammatical points
You can get a yomitan dictionary based on the standard english dictionary
Most classical chinese texts are available here
https://ctext.org/

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>>25061494
knock yourself out, I learnt using Fuller and a Chinese-language textbook.
It's not too difficult if you already know Mandarin but I would imagine going from zero would be quite hard

>>25063280
ctext is honestly amazing as it has fully digitalised versions of all the important classics as well as OCR/image versions of almost any text you could think of from Han to Qing in the wiki section
I am using it to access materials to write my undergrad dissertation

>Finish chapter 47 in Roma Aeterna.
>"Only 205 lines? That was a short chapter." :)
>Turn to chapter 48.
>It's865 lines, plus the return of "Grammatica Latina" :(

Here we go...

>>25062467
it'd take at least 3 (III, Γ) lifetimes to catalog and learn about the autistic rules behind each greek verb

>>25063872
>>25063872
I would be really disappointed in Roma Aeterna if the second punic war was covered in any less grand a manner.

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>>25060011
>have u had experience yet with any latin or greek? memorized any of either's declensions or conjugations? read either's sentence up to participles and non-indicative verbs? if none of any of these sanskrit might seem insane to you. sure you can just jump right in, but learning some latin or greek to a certain point gives u a pretty rough idea and gestalt on how this crazy ancient languages work, and u know what to expect and navigate because u have the two as rough bases. but do
Yes I studied Latin enough that I could read Caesar but realized Latin literature isn't actually that interesting. Also studied a few other languages too (but not to fluency) . Vedic stuff is of much higher interest to me than anything else.