>>97492319
>TQ
Doubt it, there's like five people that actually play ligma worldwide.

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I've already got 30 secutarii peltasts and 20 secutarii hoplites to accompany my Warhound - is there any conceivable benefit to allying in the Battle Pilgrims other than lore?

>>97492349
Lore is the best reason.

>>97492363
This is true

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>>97492349
I'm also pretty confused by the design choices

>Get shot
>Get charged
>Get shot again
>lose one model in combat
>break and run away
Hate this edition

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still torn between land speeders with hunter killers and multi-meltas, and las destroyer rapiers for my anti-tank

>>97492404
In older editions it would have been
>Break and lose the entire unit to Sweeping Advance

>>97492387
who the fuck ran this through an ai

>>97492415
so you're torn between anti-light vehicles and anti-tank for your anti-tank choice? anon, seems pretty obvious to me

>>97492417
In previous editions the wouldn't have been able to kill half my unit in the same turn they charged

>>97492431
HK missiles are S9 armourbane D3, they're better than lascannons

>>97492415
What legion are you playing?
What would fit them more?
What would fit your playstyle more?

>>97492447
True, it would have been closer to the entire unit getting killed.

>>97492415
Land speeders are a tiny bit more durable, thanks to having 3 wounds. Rapiers feel fragile as fuck now, you're forced to allocating wounds from shooting to the gun carriers and there's a ton of 2 dmg weapons.

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ngl lads, i actually like them

>>97492454
>smokescreen

>>97492516
Land Speeders come equipped with an augury scanner.

>>97492508
Looking forward to seeing them painted anon. Suspect it is mostly the terrible painting scheme GW picked for their studio models that made them look bad.

>>97492459
i'm playing AL and I need an anti-tank element to back up my land raiders and terminators
I also want a high speed element to support them, so I feel speeders fit the role best

if I take rapiers, I could also take plasma outrider bikes

>>97492537
multi-meltas (plural) implies swapping the augury scanner for a second multi-melta, but I guess I could be wrong on that.

>>97492548
Why not take both rapiers and land speeders?

>>97492415
Honestly, MM are not very good antitank
If you move you are only S8, if you don't get close they are not in melta range so they are only as good as any other D3 weapon while usually being more expensive.
They don't really seem worth it as anti tank to me
Great for killing units with multiple wounds and higher than normal T tho

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>>97492547
>Suspect it is mostly the terrible painting scheme GW picked for their studio models that made them look bad.
Feels that way, i've seem some digibashes that look better already, all that tech detail will look nice in different metalics, also, they look a lot more weird and alien in person, instead of just like a guy on stilts, which helps.

>>97492547
>terrible painting scheme GW picked for their studio models
they just look like the necromunda wastes gang instead of skitarii

>>97492619
That looks a lot better already.

>>97492656
Worse, at least the necromunda wastes gang still has a little contrast going on.

Outside of White Scar, is an Ax pretor and 2 hammer saturnite buddies an okeyish option ever?

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>Voltlock weapons are supposed to be refined versions of Volkite Weapons
>Voltlock Handgun is just objectively worse than the Volkite Serpenta

>>97492760
They would fit in a land raider, so it could definitely work for any legion.

>>97492548
Land speeders. Who will protect the backline when everyone moves forward? With speeders you can keep up with land raiders and even flank.

>>97492555
plural in this context is "a squad of 3, 3 multi-meltas and 6 missiles total"

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Think I'll just dry brush the grey and add a bit of grass or moss then finish the dreadnought off.

>>97492917
(okay its 2 squads of 3 but I digress)

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I'm signed up for Adepticon doubles and singles, oh boy!

>>97492822
>Who will protect the backline when everyone moves forward?
This is a blind spot a lot of people have desu. Deepstrike and outflank are really strong for shooting this edition on too of jump packs getting even better than 2nd do I've found it trivial to just leap on and obliterate people's scoring and backline units turn 1-2 and then the games basically over.

>>97493051
People under-estimate the power of high mobility all the time. Gotta build me some assault veterans soon, because after suggesting them to other people at the LGS I've got jump pack troops ravaging my backlines every damn game.

>>97492319
>pic
It do be done like that

>>97493113
>>97493051
This is why so many people fucking sleep on interdiction units.
>Do you want to have a 20 man tactical or dispoiler squad show up on your enemies backline with out needing to roll for it, and not invoke a reaction and have the option to either open up full bore with 20 tacticals at snap shots or disordered charge with a dispoiler squad?
Also one thing you can do as well for speeders i realized it, since you buy them in squads, you can actually toss a librarian in there with them to give them shoud saves lol.

>>97493139
You cant put characters in interdiction units.

>>97493139
Characters can only join units with the same unit type.

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>entire formations of traitor excertus burning down the imperium and summarily laying siege to the palace fully believing it was all being done to save the emperor from deceivers and underminers and usurers and bureaucrats that surrounded him

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What are you working on anons? Post some pics. I am currently building my first despoiler squad which will be a nice mix of power armor marks and weapons: 2 heavy chainswords, 1 power lance, 2 power axes and 5 chainswords. I already hate myself for this choice for all the separate rolls, but who cares, it will look cool.

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>>97493316
Started painting a saturnine command squad to go alongside the saturnine praetor

>>97493178
>land speeders are cavalry
>mounted librarians are cavalry
I'm not seeing the issue, anon

>>97493316
Damn. This reminded me of a better era...

>>97492387
Mvgged

>>97493316
these look sick, are you going to paint skull motifs on their helmets?

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>>97493316
I'm converting up some Palatine for EC. I think they need more bling.

>>97492387
>BS3
>"Skitarii"
That's no Skitarii. Literally commoners

>>97493316
I primed my militia malcador yesterday

What's a good loadout for destroyers? Just max missile launchers and sgt phosphex bomb?

>>97493295
Elaborate

>>97493651
You want at least 8 tubes of torpedos and at least 4 inch cannons

>>97492813
Battle pilgrims are BS3, so not real Skitarii.
They are M6 i3 Fast 2 meaning they run 11", the same as regular Marines. So, not actually fast.
And their volkite isn't all that special. Their volkite pistols are worse than regular serpentas (this is more a serpenta issue).
Im unconvinced

>>97493295

>Speaker> Why did you do it?

>Subject> Do what?

>Speaker> Do not feign ignorance. It will go poorly for you. Why did you do it?

>Subject> Fight? Why did I fight?

>Speaker> Why did you turn against the Emperor, the doctrines of Unity, the Imperial order?

>Subject> I was fighting for the Emperor.

>Speaker> You were fighting for the Traitor.

>Subject> No. No, that was… We were fighting for the Emperor. Against His false advisers.

>Speaker> You know that is a lie. The Warmaster was the betrayer.

>Subject> No, we had to save the Emperor. Cleanse Terra.

>Speaker> Cleanse Terra? From what?

>Subject> The traitors. We were fighting them. The false advisers.

>Speaker> [Pause for collation] Did all your comrades feel this way? Your leaders?

>Subject> [Pause for recollection] I don’t know. Many of us… See, I never asked.

– Transcript from Interrogation Centre 532,
Albia, submitted for the Jupiter-4 Tribunals

preamble to ashes of the imperium ch.3

>>97493653
>>97493740
oops

>>97493651
I think basically anything works.

Naked destroyers with a phosphex bomb can be a nasty DS panic surprise. Volkites are really high DPS "generally".

>>97493772
>Dual volkite serpenta destroyers can now shoot twice in the same turn
That's actually terrifying.

Is admech as much of a chore to hobby with as they are in mech cum in 40k? I don’t want shit to fall apart on me when playing with them, and I especially don’t want the assembly process to feel like fucking torture.

>>97493792
It actually is. Destroyers are a glass cannon, but they really live up to the "cannon" part of that. Against anything short of 2+ armor destroyers can basically just pick up units.

>>97493797
Ouside of thallax shins I havent heard many complaints.

>>97493146
I was refering to putting a character into the unit of speeders.
>>97493178
Correct as the other anon said, speeders are cavalry, mounted librarians are also calv.

>>97492349
haywire grenades, line that can redeploy 11" in a single move, more wounds, harder to kill, guns that don't rely heavily on Rending just to wound normal shit and can actually hurt light vehicles get fucked peltasts, actual shooting not just standing around hoping you get charged by cata and fuck up their setup move get fucked hoplites,

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Has anyone got a high quality scan of the Aeronautica Imperialis Age of Darkness rulebook? The one online is poopoo and lacks the lore/pictures which I'm also interested in.
TIA anons <3

>>97493960
They don't have thunder hammers or WS 5 so they are literally unplayable.

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>>97493316
Finishing the second half of that command squad, next is the arduous task of metal cleanup before the wash

>>97494086
I have a shitty photo scan, but it includes the lore and color plates

>>97494351
Shit, forgot the link: https://gofile.io/d/nx62nB

>>97493797
The me mechanicum kits are extremely complex with a large number of parts. They're not difficult to assemble or paint though.

>>97493468
Not sure about that. The skulls, flayed skin, human remains and fun stuff to put on power armor is more suited for terror squads and raptors, elite terminators and dreadnoughts. The line squads are more "normal" so just some if any gets the panoply of slaughter. Some marines like aspirant terror squad members and sergeants. But this idea is pretty volatile and not yet written in my codex (little notebook where I write everything about my army)

>>97493548
Looks nice, just don't forget to drill the barrels

>>97494240
R/n I am listening to The first heretic, I almost feel pety for poor Word bearers

>>97494411
Um deserved calth and more for being the second most obnoxious legion

>>97494468
1st being Word Bearers.

>>97494501
No that's far and away the dark angels. 10k years of being team killing fucktards

>>97494612
How homophobic of you

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>>97493316
I'm off today so I tried a quick and dirty metal bawkz for the SoH. Going from the malcador kit to this is kind of crazy, the armor panels are so flat compared to modern vehicle kits.

>>97494362
I want to have your children, thank you anon.

>>97493740
;__;

>>97493792
Volkite serpentas should be 1 shot desu. S+1 alone would be worth the +5 pts over bolt pistols, and serpentas shoot twice on top of that baka u.u

>>97494142
You jest, but at BS3 WS3 all they get to do is have 2W and catch bolts with their face

>>97494501
Nope, space wolves. Both sw and um actively contributed to the heresy like absolute retards and it should be dorn and the lion rebuilding the imperium

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I never get tired of the baldness jokes.

>>97495403
Is this gay emperor/eldrad slashfic

>>97495403
>Eldrad was a twink during the hearsay
Lol.

>>97495444
All male eldar are twinks regardless of age. It is an inherent trait that comes with being (space) elves.

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>>97493316
Oh thats a nice set of NL anon, good pale tones.

I am working on some IH atm, need to get 2.5k painted by end of the month for an event. Can;t wait to pour oil on these to darker and dirty them up.

>>97493368
damn bro those checks in the backround are slick as fk

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If you were to build a squad of custodes stylized after a kill team (i.e. a group of specialists) what kind of dudes would you make?

>>97495666
Dual swords dude, axe dude, spear dude, bolter dude, sword and shield dude, dude with banner

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If I remove the jump packs, would they work as Despoilers/Destroyers? I really like the extra chestplate. Can the backpack just be swapped out or is there need for some sanding and/or greenstuffing?

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>>97495712
Need backpacks for them, but there doesn't seem to be anything stopping you.

>>97495712
Sure? I dont see why not.

got a 2v2 ZM game next week

should I spam terminators....

>>97496108
yes

>>97492454
he asked hunter-killer speeders versus rapiers. rapiers are 36" range Strength 10 (dmg 2-3 instead of 1-2) which is why they do so much better AT than speeders. speeders are shit anti-tank as are all expensive multimeltas, even if we wish it was different.

Odds of taking kratos within 8 inches
1 speeder 0%, 2x 2%, 3x 7%, 4x 15%, 5x 22%, 6x 30%, 7x 39%, 8x 47%, even 12x just 74%

They're a complete joke unit in HH3. To be worth 80 points per speeder they'd need Limited(1) removed from HK or Firing Protocols(3) to be able to dump MM+HK+HK the one turn before they're all dead, as it is their burst damage is the worst in game and their sustained damage output is incredibly the worst in game. And speed does not somehow replace that, as you can't ever shoot until movement phase is over, so blobs of speeders can easily be screened away from multimelta's range (and it takes 3000 points of speeders to pop one kratos if they're not in the 8 inches)

Knights Errant when? I feel like they're going to get a diet blackshields treatment

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>>97496125
>Doesn't even know what the weapon profile for hunter-killer missiles looks like

>>97496133
you feel like they're going to be the most powerful faction for the three seconds GW allows them before the nerf sends them to the bottom of the bottom tiers?

>>97496153
Back to 40kg with you retard kun, blackshields are fine and they didn't even touch the actual most powerful combo

>>97496212
not that guy but A&F got waped

>>97496212
Elaborate, Anon, so I can ridicule your innocence.

>>97496212
The most powerful combo for blackshields, the one that was functionally mathematically impossible to beat, was absolutely gutted.

This is however a good thing, because it was an incredibly broken combination that encouraged absolutely horrendous lists which did not result in fun or engaging games, but was a de-facto "I win" button in most instances.

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anon asked earlier about marine juice on white

here's it before drybrushing (marine juice over grey seer undercoat)

>>97496477
Waow! Thanks!

-guy who asked

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>>97496477
and after drybrushing (grey seer and white scar)

>>97492319
>TQ
Bought some planes and tanks and infantry to play with my friends, it's rather active at my LGS

>>97496853
Based. Keep us posted on progress.

>>97496116
>it's just 3 units of lernaens and a cataphractii praetor

well that was fucking easy

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>>97496891
I have the tanks primed and basecoated (might strip em since I kinds don't want to paint them in standard solar aux gray) with like 1 legat commander bases, 16 bases of solar aux las guys, 8 bases of ogryns, and 8 bases of sentinels on stirring sticks and blue tack. I need to make more of these stands for 8 bases of the axe guys and i can start painting the infantry in one fell swoop. I got two planes assembled, a marauder bomber I'm running as a colossus, and one thunderbolt who will be my ace (aka painted differently). Wanted to paint the tanks originally in either urban camo or solar aux gray but it's kinda lame to me now, might do something funny for the scheme though... (picrel)

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>>97496233
The only thing broken about it was the scoring (not only when you mixed it with Blade of the Just) that got out of hand really fast and the combat resolution bonus that was impossible to overcome. The actual Expendables army list wasn't that big of a deal, and was actually kind of fun with the stat bonuses so you can make some goofy dudes. At larger games it would be obnoxious, of course, but that's a different problem.
Now it's a non-option. Totally pointless.

>>97496233
It deserved to get nerfed but restricting other command options from being used makes it way more boring. And yet it's still legal for them to take a superheavy.

Man I don’t know how people watch macca. His voice is so fucking grating even for a Brit.

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>>97497340
Making them all headless was also unnecessary, that should have been put into the Blade of the Just rules. The completely killed the flavor and the scoring when they should have just nerfed the scoring.

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>>97495712
Not a despoiler, but yes

>>97497366
I suppose it's fairly characteristic of 3.0 to take away options. WS8 Champions are funny but I don't think the build-a-bear buffs were gamebreaking either.

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>>97497397
BS7 moritats were a bit much, and a BS9 vigilator or BS7 armistos is potent but you can only take 1 or 2, but since you trade off not getting the combat bonuses or the death-vp it made sense to have buff shooting consuls so the regular centurions could be the beat sticks.
All it really needed was flat 3VP for being killed, and you only get +2 to the combat resolution instead of +4 so it was still slightly possible for an enemy to win the combat or at least tie. Blade of the Just should give you heedless so you can't score normally.

>>97497425
It could have also been possible to leave the scoring things exclusively to Centurions only, or even just the buffs. Lots of ways to go about it. And it's still funny to me that they didn't errata it to include Saturnine Centurions or other potential variants.

>>97497366
TF are you on about, they absolutely should have been heedless the whole time, the whole favor is doomed warriors doing a suicide charge, that precludes sitting on objectives the whole game. And on the flipside, blade of the just is about trying to uphold the ideals of the great crusade no matter the cost to self, which definitely should not be heedless.

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>>97497434
Satty Cents would have been good because you'd get centurions with good shooting and good melee so it would probably have been too strong to have a pile of them lumbering around.
>>97497446
Well you're right about that in the flavor text.

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>>97492319
i do

>>97497520
Can assault marines hurt a titan? I don't get how melee works in LIgma

>>97497570
NTA but """Melee""" is a heavily abstracted thing in LIgma. It's why assault marines or jetbikes can wreck a Kratos in close combat, it's less them *hitting* it with their swords and more... other things like planting charges and melta bombs. I kinda see it as the Marines going up the titan doing similar things or maybe even boarding it and slaughtering the crew or whatever the fuck. Games at this scale require a further level of abstraction than 28mm ones

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>>97492387
Why didn't you just post the actual picture?

>>97493548
wtf is on his knees

>>97497697
Why are they so tall lmao?

>>97495591
i like your cool toned iron hands a lot
>>97493548
would considering working backwards from the 40k mk6 guys be going too far? disregarding minor scale jump they do come with more bling as is

>>97497570
yes they can, that reaver almost died to 8 assault marines bases

>>97497743
A pilgrimage is a lot easier when you have long strides. It's the little things.

>>97497360
>even for a Brit
He's an A*stralian

>>97493027
Woooooooo titanicus bros

>>97498005
That is cheating and God will punish you with bad knees.

>>97497360
>>97498157
Aussies are former britbongs both anglos. I like macca tho.

>>97498268
Not possible when the Omnissiah has blessed you with knees of steel.

>>97497322
>The only thing broken about it was the scoring (not only when you mixed it with Blade of the Just) that got out of hand really fast and the combat resolution bonus that was impossible to overcome
Yes, thats the one I mean. That combination was functionally impossible to beat in simple mathematical terms, you could wipe them turn 2/3 (not that you would, spam is hard to remove due to the number of units) and you would still be assloads of points behind.

>>97497340
>>97497366
There are no nerfs, only overnerfs that make things useless

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>>97497697
Oh Sicarians infiltrators are already a bit taller than marines? They're literally perfect. Pilgrims are sooo unnecessary

>>97498275
Nta but that's funny because one of the knights in the first HH books had a bad knee then emps came down on mars and fixed it with his mind.

>>97498566
One of the knights of Tyranis or something yeah

>>97498271
>Aussies are former britbongs both anglos
So are americans and canucks

>>97498523
Of course Pilgrims are unnecessary. So are the new custodes infantry. And the resin daemon Angron. And the list goes on. All of these are made purely because the higher-ups at GW want to segregate the model lines of every game. It serves no other purpose, and actively hurts their profit margins.
Another example: GW could have allowed Mechanicum to use any and all vehicles of all the other imperial factions, this has been part of the lore since forever, and they build the bloody things in the first place. This would have meant more sales of leman russ, rhinos, land raiders, you name it. But GW doesn't want that, so instead they went out of their way to pull vehicles out of their ass, which need their own moulds, production capacity allotment, storage and shelf space, and so on. GW actively hurts their own sales potential rather than not have some illusion of control.

>>97498578
Its not about "control", its about making a functional game.

Options are power, the non space-marine factions are BUILT around lacking options but having their limited arsenals be hyper-efficient. That is why the admech have like three vehicles, because if they had the full imperial parking lot they would be broken as fuck.

>>97498271
He isn't gonna fuck you little bro.

>>97498590
No they wouldn't. Most leman russ weapons are much worse than what mechanicum tanks can bring. And that you think GW actually cares about making a functional game is even more hilarious. It has absolutely nothing to do with game balance.

>>97497743
>>97497697
I wouldn't mind if they paid homage to the old artwork by having their legs with more joints, so they could double up with their first "knee" joint at the height of a natural ankle, and the additional joints behind them as a second "leg" that lets them walk around at normal human height by not using the first "knee" joint, and using the second joint as the equivalent of the hip of the "second leg"
hope this description makes sense

Ultramarines are so cool bros

>>97498578
>GW could have allowed Mechanicum to use any and all vehicles of all the other imperial factions, this has been part of the lore since forever, and they build the bloody things in the first place.
This isn't 1.0 anymore. It's "let's see how much we can sacrifice on the altar of balance before we drown in blood". Still no balance, they must cut more.

>>97498578
>Mechanicum to use any and all vehicles of all the other imperial factions
*Allies SA tanks in and paints them in mech colours*
Get fucked james

>>97498618
1.0 was even worse. Nothing but ignoring old artwork and lore, and instead Bligh pulling yet more out of his ass. Iron bullock jetbikes? No no, let's make some that look like you can find them in your mom's drawer instead. Anti-grav rhinos and land raiders for custodes? Noooooo, we are making some Eldar hover tank knock-offs instead. Not to mention some legions still not having their primarch model, but rather than working on those let's make another legion specific contemptor, imperial knight heads, and tons of rhino doors instead.

>>97498604
>No they wouldn't.
They absolutely would. Because leman russes do things that krios tanks dont do. And because an Av14 malcador with flare shields and 9HP would be absolute fucking cancer to deal with.

>>97498618
>Still no balance
The game is absolutely the most balanced it has ever been what are you on about. The current "unbalance" is "X faction if played optimally is 4% better than its peers" and not "this army may as well not exist"

>>97498663
We even got veteran breachers, assault marines, and HSS/TSS too. Fucking finally.

>>97498648
Bullock pattern jetbikes have always looked too much like 40k ships to me and agrav rhinos and land raiders are pretty boring. I like what they did with their range back then but we missed a lot of what they meant to release back then in terms of vehicles which I'm sure include what you just mentioned.
>>>>primarchs
Meh. Fuck primarchs.

>>97498684
>back then back then
Lmao, what I meant to write is that a lot of things never came out and what is publicly known like the pavaise is just the tip of the iceberg.

>>97498668
And all it cost was regular foot veterans

WHY GW
WHY ARE THEY GONE
GIVE ME DESPOILER VETS
AND BIKER VETS ACTUALLY ID LIKE THOSE TOO

>>97498692
Calm down, they're just called centurion command squads. They are functionally the exact same in every other regard.

>>97498699
Its not the same
theres minor mechanical differences (lack of vanguard), but mostly its about the slot theyre in, elites would make them much easier to take alongside other veteran types, while retinue are a lot more limited

>>97498663
Having options lets units or factions do other things which according to some people they shouldn't do, case in point >>97498656.
The game is the most balanced at this time when it has had the least options so far.

I love my Castellax, they are my best friends

>>97498719
you -did- paint them with graphics of popuko and pipimi on the pauldrons, right anon?
that's what's in store for my pair

>>97498715
Yes, the more options and variables a game has the harder it is to balance/the less balanced it is.

Soup factions that have massive bloated toolboxes and can do everything are borderline impossible to balance.

This is why the game moving towards the non-marine factions having more defined limitations is good, it lets them have their tools be powerful without making them impossible to manage. Custodes would not work if they ALSO had access to easy durability and assault transports and fire support in the form of boxdreads and so on.
It also lets factions feel like unique and interesting armies, rather than "marines, marines+1, marines with robots, small human marines", both on aesthetic/thematic levels and in terms of how factions play in game.

Custodes are a much more interesting faction for having their tanks be relatively fragile almost eldar-inspired things that scream sophistication and elegance, than if they had just better rhinoes and land raiders. Both in how they play mechanically (more durable infantry coupled with less durable vehicles than marines gives them a nice push and pull of profiles and weaknesses) and in what themes are on display (the custodes show a very different technological pathway to a lot of the imperium, they feel like lost golden age pulp, wonders from a better time or a better future at odds with the ugly square brutality of regular imperial designs, everything sleek and beautiful as opposed to the box like marine stuff)

>>97498753
There you have it, less is more. I can't wait till we get the next edition in 2 years when we will get even less things and thus more balance. I think this time after they got rid of rites of war in all but name they'll finally remove the legiones astartes special rules. That way no one will complain that someone else's legion has better rules.

>>97498753
Now, obviously "you could have done things differently". If, as custodes or admech or whoever else were being made an army way back in the day they were designed and built around having these common imperial vehicles and weapons rather than their own stuff? It COULD have worked, you could obviously have balanced it, custodes could have had big ugly golden land raiders and whatnot.

I maintain that it would have been more dull, it would have made custodes "the 19th legion" rather than an entirely different faction with its own playstyle and arsenal. But you could do it.

But at this stage? Where theyre already their own thing? Adding in random stuff is a bad idea which would not work. Custodes in their current form rely on having things they are bad at (like no AV14, no convenient assault transports for their best in slot infantry, no powerful backline shooting batteries, etc) and giving them a big toolbox would be giving it just that.

>>97498735
No...i.might

>>97498805
my mech detachment is slated to be given over to some good swathes of silliness concerning at least how a few of the robots are going to be done up
inheritors of a potent uncasked meme-vault fr

>>97498781
Yes you retard. Obviously the less moving pieces the more balanced a thing is/the easier it is to balance. A game where there is literally only one unit/list would be perfectly balanced by definition.
The more pieces, the more variables, the more factors that need to be considered and the greater the odds of a combination or singular element being too good. This is all basic common sense.

Balance is good because it adds to "actual" diversity, rather than "theoretical" diversity. If there are 200 units but only 3 are good you only have 3 units. If you have 10 units but theyre all relatively equal you have 10 units. 3e has a relative lack of options with previous editions, but the balance between the options is MUCH better. There are no longer simply "dead units" which may as well not exist (the closest to that is what, basic assault marines? sabre tanks?), no longer "dead legions" which may as well not exist. No longer "dead armies" which may as well not exist.

>>97498819
I'm agreeing with you, no need to get so angry. We'll get an even bigger count of usable units and options in fourth edition hh when they are done removing the rest of the chaff. Afterall why bother playing suboptimal units. I wrote in my previous post they might even cull the legion specific special rules so that way no one is left behind, no longer you will have an army which has a slight advantage over another because of what paint you've used.

>>97498839
>when they are done removing the rest of the chaff
Go on, what UNITS have they removed in 3e.

>>97498844
All of the stuff before the community turned on them, flooded every GW post on social media like facebook, twitter and youtube before they gave in and made the game unbalanced by allowing master of signals to ride on bikes. But as both you and I wrote they should really remove things so that way what's left becomes useful rather than fiddle around with points and stats so that way they save time and money. And time is money so I'm repeating myself. Also nullificators.

>>97498870
>All of the stuff before the community turned on them
Nothing, got it.

>But as both you and I wrote they should really remove things
As you and I both wrote they shouldnt give admech or custodes random "imperial" vehicles. Which they didnt.

>Also nullificators.
We finally got one!

wait....do outrider bike command squads etc still exist?

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>>97498910
Yes

>>97498903
Yes, I knew that you would get it. They must remove those unit variants asap, they listened to the community and it backfired. There is 40-something pages of consul variants alone in the faq and put together with the marine stuff it goes up to 143 pages. It's ridiculus and no company should have to manage such a bloated document. Personally, between you and me, they should have gone with the sisters of silence treatment where your army list consists of HQ, named HQ, infantry squad, vehicle, no options, no nothing. That way you can fit all factions in a second book to the core one. No retarded army list with 20+ pages of stuff taking up space that could be used by 2-3 other factions. Just let's do the same to marines, Primarch, praetor, tactical squad, rhino, no other weapons no nothing. That way it's finally balanced.

>>97498910
Yes, they are in the PDF.
Well i know you can take a Preatorian command squad on bikes, idk about a command squad. But either way, its a really good load out, i like the sky hunters.

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can we get much higher?

>>97498819
Its the problem of community. Somehow Battletech has 100000000 mechs yet people still have no problems with using literal trashcans on legs. Warhammer players are just the worst WAAC tournamentfags

>>97498992
>TRVTH NVKE

I don't get it man. An option can be literally only 0.01% less effective than another option, but to warhammer players this makes it "actual garbage" and "literally unplayable"
Doesn't matter how often I bring the options perceived as being bad and beat their "optimal" list with it.

>>97497847
>working backwards from the 40k mk6 guys
Which ones? I've considered using some parts from 40k kits, but the issue is the EC ones are so fucked by the warp in comparison that they don't really look early/during heresy, or at least have a real tonal dissonance.

>>97498981
Nah that's just the beginning of the end. I have nothing against people who enjoy 2.0 but 3.0 is just following up what 2.0 started.

>>97498981
HH 1.0 but with
>Cherry picking the best stuff from 2.0
>TOW's WS chart
>Additional weapons introduced after 2.0 came out
>Minor (AND I MEAN MINOR) changes to blast weapons AP

>>97499053
Just dropping some weapons like basilisks to ap3/4 already is a huge boon to the game. You aren't forced to avoid them and they are still dropping templates on people. Militia would suffer from this but that's just because the 1.0 slots are far too few for them so just giving them 2.0's 3 squads per slots would fix that too.

>>97499053
My friends and I have rocked HH1 with some retrofitted units and it's been great so far.

>>97498941
>WS5, W3, 2+
>can take the plasmaguns
>still have firestorm
>can also take melee weapons

good but expensive, shame they can't have anything other than pistols though, some combi-weapons would've been great so you're not relying on plasma all the time

>>97498943
>and it backfired
With the best balanced edition of the game?

>>97499192
It's not balanced enough, it could be even more balanced without those units.

>>97499192
In 2ed my army wasn't great, but it could score, it could contest. Speeders were good counter to contemptors. The army felt fun. Now in 3ed, my army can't score, can't contest (save for one scenario, that isn't even a GW original|) and the best way to play a mounted mongolian horde, is to spam terminators, tacticals, artilery and heavy tanks. You should avoid bikes, bike characters, Golden Keshig, land speeders of all types like the plague. Maximum and total balance.
The best thing you can do with the army, is to take it, play every skyhunter as a centurion, play nothing but centurions and just ignore being White Scar, and be Shattered Legion. And even then the list would be better if you had centurions with jump packs instead of jetbikes.

>>97498719
I wish they were a bit more good.

>>97499256
Except the units themselves are still good, bikes are viable and balanced (as are speeders). You simply cant spam nothing but cavalry. Bike characters are also still good, because bikes and bike retinues are powerful and characters - as melee elites - care less about holding ground than hitting high value targets.

This is like complaining that a "whoops, nothing but tanks" meme list isnt viable any more. The tanks themselves are still good, you just dont get to 100% skew into them.

>>97499260
>50pts 3+ t6 4w
>fire multiple guns in volley fire/overwatch
>"I just wish they were better"

>>97499280
Mechanicum players, everyone

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Mine too. This was fun to play in 2.0, now it’s unusable.

>>97499280
Yes. Because there are units for killing things and castellax are not it, and they aren't line so they're not it for scoring either, and if you attach a magos for scoring then they're no longer points effective. So yes, I wish they were better at something.

>>97499294
It's perfectly usable, you just need to go pick up those ground control troops you left behind screaming in like a retard or accept that in missions where you need to hold the line you can wipe the enemy but be hard pressed to stop them from successfully completing their mission objectives unless you go full out with charging their lines and cutting off their head.

>>97499272
HOW THE FUCK IS AN ALL BIKES ARMY FOR WHITE SCARS A MEME? Being full mounted is their theme. In fact not being mounted is the wierd thing for them to do. Also if my army is a meme , why can tactical spamers play theirs, why can ad mecha spam their units? why can WE spam their special units. 1ksons are all about magic and what do they all do, magic ? A WS bike army should not be a unit of pretorian outriders brick and 40 tacticals, kratos, 2 land raiders, storm seer and a unit of X for the seer to catapult across the table.

>>97499314
yeah. And then you realise that after taking those 40 tacticals, seers, kratos, 2 land raiders etc there either is not enough points to run bike, or it is better to replace them with a better choices. Explain to me what is the goal of a Kyzgan Land Speeders or a Javelin? And why wouldn't you replace them with, hmm I don't know rapiers or vindicators. Those siege options so characterful to White Scars.

>>97499315
>HOW THE FUCK IS AN ALL BIKES ARMY FOR WHITE SCARS A MEME
Because that's not what the black books depict them as. You fell for the meme, just like all terminator armies and all dreadnought armies, and thus deserve to lose to a more balanced force composition that is how the legions actually waged war.

>>97499309
>and they aren't line so they're not it for scoring either
Anon do you know what comptroller does? Put a dude in there and they BECOME line. Thats how the faction works, you MAKE your units line and turn whatever into scoring units. This includes castellax. So you end up with incredibly durable line units that can be buffed to do more damage and can be healed.

>better units for killing things
A castellax, on volley fire, will kill a veteran/two marines. They are absolutely fine at killing things relative to their price point.

>>97499315
You don't get it anon, having things is unbalanced, respecting fluff is unbalanced and 30k is known to be the game everyone that cares about balance is playing. Outrider companies? Armour companies? All the other shit in the black books? All of it is unbalanced and it has to go.

>>97499315
>HOW THE FUCK IS AN ALL BIKES ARMY FOR WHITE SCARS A MEME?
it always has been
>Being full mounted is their theme.
including being mounted in rhinos, storm eagles, etc.

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you heard it here first, rites of war were all just memes and you should have known better
all flavor must be done away with in the name of 'balance'

>>97499315
>HOW THE FUCK IS AN ALL BIKES ARMY FOR WHITE SCARS A MEME?
Because white scars fielded things beyond bikes? What kind of stupid question is that?
Theyre not the "bikes bikes nothing but bikes" legion. Theyre the MOBILITY legion. They have special terminators and destroyers for a reason, because they used more than just bikes.

>why can tactical spamers play theirs
>tactical spammers
anon tactical marines are the fundamental bread and butter of EVERY marine army.

>why can admech spam their units
the fuck does that even mean?

>why can other legiosn spam their special units
YOU can spam your special units if you want. A list of nothing but rampagers is going to be worse than an all bike list btw.

>A WS bike army should not be a unit of pretorian outriders brick and 40 tacticals, kratos, 2 land raiders, storm seer and a unit of X for the seer to catapult across the table.
Then dont spend 1000pts on tanks?
Take your praetorian bikers, a couple squads of outriders, some tactical squads in rhinoes to score objectives and whatever the fuck else you think you need.
Use your bikes to sweep and contain the enemy, and then have your tacticals ride in to hold ground behind them. Or take despoilers to get more aggressive in melee.

This is also not a "balance" issue, this is you wanting to take nothing but assault marines because you decided thats all night lords do, and then finding out its not very good.

>>97499337
yeah. You are one of those guys that go "why shouldn't night lords have a ton of stealthy siege tanks and DG be zipping around on jet packs".

I think ground bikes are cooler than the hover ones

>>97499356
Yes you moron. "all raven guard are recon marines" "all white scars are bikers" and so on are retarded memes with no basis in the lore, and are not something which should have any expectation of viability or being catered to.

You may as well complain your fury of the ancients IH dreadspam list isnt any good.

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>>97499356
Why does gondola get 2 dices? Balance him out of the game.

>>97499356
>Chogorian Brotherhood
>RoW which allows infantry in transports
>incredible high IQ Anons: This is intended to be a pure cavalry RoW with 0 infantry at all.

>>97499332
yeah. I guess everyone should just play the same list, if they play marines. With the only difference being the "legion" rules over lay. which sometimes could be nice, and sometimes it is DA.

Death Gyard Assalt Marine

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>>97499372
Hey anon, whats this thing? Is this a special variant of a "stealth spartan"? Is it next to a "stealth leviathan" on the next page?

The legions were not retarded flanderized memes, every legion had and did everything because they were self contained and well rounded fighting forces. Their characteristics are PREFERENCES and tendencies in how they approached situations. There were WS heavy support squads and vindicators, night lords bombards and superheavies and world eaters recon marines and seekers.

>>97499381
Nope, the legion rules are unbalanced too. We clearly should get rid of those too.

>>97499362
And automaticly lose to the guy who took the same "tactical section" and instead of bikes took rapiers, vindicators etc. Yeah such a great game. What next "just use terrain and superior tactics". If someone plays WS, he wants to play bikes, same way if someone plays BA they want to use jump troops. Did in 2ed, when 1ksons psychic powers sucked, you tell 1ksons players to just spam contemptors and tanks and ignore infantry "because 1ksons aren't just psykers"? WB aren't all about demons, why can they overload their army with demons/warp tainted stuff ?

>>97499381
>game has literally always had every space marine legion draw from the same list of units to craft an army, with some unique flavor units added
Anon, the joy is and always has been how minor rules provide different gameplay experiences for legions despite sharing the same pool of units.

in 3.0, for example, Sons of Horus tactical marines getting full BS volley fire with their bolt pistols makes them play slightly different than Death Guard who get to Fury after moving 4" which play slightly different than Iron Hands who have -1S for incoming shooting attacks.

That people saw some rules benefit certain unit types/units and decided that meant they were supposed to self-flanderize legions into singular roles is not a problem of the game it's a problem of the smoothbrains who need to squeeze every ounce of optimal value out of every model they add to their list, so if a legion rule benefits terminators more than jet bikes they decide they're not allowed to use jet bikes.

>>97499394
I clearly need a skimmer version of a land speeder. the Naiman Salkhi just like the magic air ships in our legends. No need for bikes/horses when the 8 winds fleet can carry your whole army in one go from one side fo Gobi to the other in a half a day.

>>97499398
>And automaticly lose to the guy who took the same "tactical section" and instead of bikes took rapiers, vindicators etc.
Both rapiers and vindicators are bad against bikes and do entirely different things to boot. Why would taking them lead to them instantly beating you?

>What next "just use terrain and superior tactics"
Yes. you move like 16" per turn, you should absolutely be able to use terrain to your advantage unless youre playing on planet bowling ball.

>WB aren't all about demons, why can they overload their army with demons/warp tainted stuff ?
They CAN, but I dont know if you noticed but spamming gal vorbak isnt exactly a very good option. Everyone CAN go spam nothing but their special units, its just not going to be viable 99% of the time. Because taking nothing but specialists is a retarded idea and you want a well balanced list to actually win games.

>>97499324
>Those siege options so characterful to White Scars.
lol retard

>>97499409
Are land speeders not already skimmers?

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Dont look WSbro! Theres a non-bike unit!

>>97499398
>Did in 2ed, when 1ksons psychic powers sucked, you tell 1ksons players to just spam contemptors and tanks and ignore infantry "because 1ksons aren't just psykers"?
ESL alert

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>>97499429
aieeeee thats another unit that ISNT a bike! How can this beeeeeee!

>>97499378
Nta but when Chogorian brotherhood was introduced in the game (1.0) it's main effect was allowing people to take outriders and jetbikes as scoring troops and you did have to take at least two units to fill up the compulsory slots.
I think WS also were the only legion to have legion specific bikes which were essentially bike artificer armour for ICs. And all of their legion specific rules reference bikes in one way or the other.
This is like complaing about a WE army whose infantry is mostly melee troops because it doesn't fit your own vision of the game despite the fact that the black books have battles like Bodt where not only you have a horde of angry retards getting into melee but also a fluff explaination on why they do that.

>>97499400
yeah, but a SoH does not Gimp his list by taking justerian, nor does he have to take wierd options to make his army function.

Legions have culture and have specific stuff they are know. When the Khan rides out with his sons to take the space fort, he and they were not runnin on foot, for maximum Ultramarine mixed army expiriance.

What is fun about any legion when every army, if it is ment to function is a carbon copy of every other legion list, with maybe one or two unique unit. At this point you could just go play ultramarines in w40k.
I mean really you don't see a problem in lets say a full jump pack BA army not being fun to play, or a full terminator DA army?

But 40 tacticals, 2 rhinos, etc is "the fun" and you take it in every army? To avoid "flandarisation" which by the way is the most stupid thing imaginable.

Mongols had siege units (mostly allied or Chinese), but no one thinks of the Mongol army as catapults and tower shield guys.

Now there can be horse archers, cataphracts, javelin throwers, Tatar/Turks ally in the mounted army etc. But foot repeater cross bow units are not "the mongolians" no matter how many such units we had.

>>97499429
>>97499436
>tardy melty
Just step outside, take a breath of fresh air and rethink your life choices.

>>97499451
> When the Khan rides out with his sons to take the space fort, he and they were not runnin on foot
His goal also wasn't to stand in magic circles for VP - it was to kill.
If you want to run a similar list, you must have a similar goal.

>>97498689
Tell me what else we were denied. I must know.

>>97499327
Nigger I literally referenced attaching a magos for Comptroller. Comptroller is not something the unit innately has and you pay for it with the magos, which invalidates any argument about the points efficiency of of castellax themselves as they are not useful by themselves. Also what is this super specific point about veterans charging castellax supposed to be about?

Anyway, my point: if you do literally everything castellax are okay. Just "okay", not "good", and if they were a little better at something or a little cheaper on account of their inabikity to function independently they'd be good.

>>97499454
>tardy melty
But enough about the polish fag who can't play his bike army intelligently and gets beaten up by local bullies

>>97499451
>But 40 tacticals, 2 rhinos, etc is "the fun" and you take it in every army?
I'm not an ape that demands every unit be the most optimal possible option to add it to me army, so no. I don't like taking rhinos because I don't think APCs belong on the battlefield. The rhinos dropped my units off at the camp days ago before they marched to the battlefield

>>97499468
>and you pay for it with the magos
Which are cheap, you need to unlock detachments, and which buff your army. They are not a tax, they are a thing that causes your "insane stats for cost" units to now be the toughest line in the game.

>Also what is this super specific point about veterans charging castellax supposed to be about?
Damage output dipshit.

>if you do literally everything castellax are okay
Yea, which on a cheap and insanely durable unit is already "good enough" even before all the ways admech get to cheat every weakness castellax are supposed to have.

Does anything even kill 10 castellax? they shoot like 80 shots from one unit. That's nasty.

>>97499458
Believe me, I wish I could share everything I know.

>>97499470
I'm not that guy, look at what you posted.

V - White Scars - bikes - [2998 Point(s), 3 Auxiliary Detachment(s), 1 Apex Detachment(s)]

Mounted Praetor [195 Point(s)]:
• 1x Outrider Praetor [35 Point(s)]

Mounted Centurion [135 Point(s)]:
• 1x Outrider Centurion [25 Point(s)]
Mounted Centurion [135 Point(s)]:
• 1x Outrider Centurion [25 Point(s)]

Praetorian Command Squad On Scimitar Jetbikes [243 Point(s)]:
• 1x Scimitar Chosen Champion [19 Point(s)]
• 1x Scimitar Chosen [84 Point(s)]
• 1x Scimitar Chosen [60 Point(s)]

Tactical Squad [110 Point(s)]:
• 1x Sergeant
• 1x Legionary [20 Point(s)]
• 8x Legionary [10 Point(s)]
Tactical Squad [110 Point(s)]:
• 1x Sergeant
• 1x Legionary [20 Point(s)]
• 8x Legionary [10 Point(s)]
Tactical Squad [110 Point(s)]:
• 1x Sergeant
• 1x Legionary [20 Point(s)]
• 8x Legionary [10 Point(s)]
Tactical Squad [110 Point(s)]:
• 1x Sergeant
• 1x Legionary [20 Point(s)]
• 8x Legionary [10 Point(s)]

Rhino [80 Point(s)]
Rhino [80 Point(s)]
Rhino [80 Point(s)]
Rhino [80 Point(s)]

Kratos Assault Tank [400 Point(s)]
Predator [135 Point(s)]
Predator [135 Point(s)]

Golden Keshig [140 Point(s)]:
• 1x Keshig Champion
• 2x Keshig Rider [40 Point(s)]
Golden Keshig [140 Point(s)]:
• 1x Keshig Champion
• 2x Keshig Rider [40 Point(s)]

Outrider Squadron [145 Point(s)]:
• 1x Outrider Sergeant
• 5x Outrider [20 Point(s)]
Outrider Squadron [145 Point(s)]:
• 1x Outrider Sergeant
• 5x Outrider [20 Point(s)]

Outrider Squadron [145 Point(s)]:
• 1x Outrider Sergeant
• 5x Outrider [20 Point(s)]
Outrider Squadron [145 Point(s)]:
• 1x Outrider Sergeant
• 5x Outrider [20 Point(s)]

Could drop the kratos for two more predators and then some bikes if you wanted more speed.

>>97499451
>but a SoH does not Gimp his list by taking justerian
You do not gimp a list by taking bikes.

A list that takes NOTHING but justaerin will be bad and gimped, because you are trying to win using a single unit when most units are specialists that cannot do everything and rely on other units to support them.

>>97499513
I count 11 non-bike units, so this may as well just be fucking ultramarines, anon.

>>97499451
>What is fun about any legion when every army, if it is ment to function is a carbon copy of every other legion list, with maybe one or two unique unit.
The way minor differences cause shifts in what an army does and how it functions? Thats literally the beauty of 30k, the way different legions and strategies recontextualise units. If you wanted to do nothing but spam your designated "army build" and special units, just play 40k where thats basically all every faction does.

In HH on the other hand there is a reason 99% of your units are vanilla no matter the legion, because the legion special units are spice rather than the main dish.

>>97499451
>I mean really you don't see a problem in lets say a full jump pack BA army not being fun to play, or a full terminator DA army?
Correct, because you shouldnt be taking nothing but assault marines or nothing but cenobium. If you take an army which by design discards the vast majority of the marine arsenal and you find that your army is weak or non-viable you have only yourself to blame, because you decided you should be able to win against actual armies using a single unit.

This would have also been true in previous editions, where if you had no line units you simply lost by default because your opponent scored some points and you scored zero.

There is a difference between "I have a themed list" and "I am playing monobattles". Especially because "unit" isnt really a theme.

A guy who plays a night lord list thats nothing but night raptors doesent have a themed list, he has 50 night raptors.

>>97499544
Actually, is there a SINGLE legion which can win using not just a single special unit but at least "only its special units"? (not counting inductii)

Space wolves might be able to do it since grey slayers are well rounded and varangyr are good elites, but thats probably literally it. Everyone else has their legion units be SPECIALISTS

>>97499550
Alpha Legion might be able to get by almost entirely on the basis of their terminators being Line? and Headhunters and Effrit are pretty good too.

>>97499503
Do it for the people who deserved better. Darkness dies in the truthful light of the sun.

>>97499457
Well then GW should have made it possible ton win the game by "killing" instead of losing the game turn 2, because someone kept 4 units of tacticals on objectives going first. Why can't a chagoris brotherhood at least contest? WS lore litteraly talks about outriders and bikers taking objectives. Motherfucking WE hooked on nails can take objectives, but a biker can not.


>>97499513
I have exactly 9 outriders and 33 skyhunters. . 0 tacticals, 0 kratos. With investment need to play an army like that it practicaly becomes a , buy new army situation, and at this point assuming for someon reasons I would not want to run a mounted army, why should I even bother playing WS. If I am rebuying a legion, I should just buy the most powerful ones aka one of the renegade ones. Same money investment, better results.
>>97499521
But I do if I take Javelins (which half I can't run, because of illegal load outs). I can't run my attack bikes, because my have auto canons. The Kazgyn make NO sense. The golden Keshig for some reason don't have venguard, which may have been not that bad, if they weren't jetbikes meaning they can't contest or score.
And ALL of this I would understand if bikes armies were, you lose on VP, but your units are super killy. Well land speeders, jetbikes both regular and WS ones are just bad options. A predator is much better option then a speeder, has better weapons too. The Kazgyn makes no sense at all. It could cost 2/3pts it costs and it would still be bad.


> Thats literally the beauty of 30k, the way different legions and strategies recontextualise units. If you wanted to do nothing but spam your designated "army build" and special units, just play 40k where thats basically all every faction does.

And yet all the cool moments from HH are Knight Cenobium soloing whole SoH armies, bike charges of the WS, mass orbital drops of BA jump troops,Mass units of IF templars storming out with Sigismund at their helm. Kharn at the front of crazed WE

>>97499589
>And yet all the cool moments from HH are Knight Cenobium soloing whole SoH armies, bike charges of the WS, mass orbital drops of BA jump troops,Mass units of IF templars storming out with Sigismund at their helm. Kharn at the front of crazed WE
"why aren't my opponents playing literal NPCs for me to slaughter en masse with my plot armor boys!?"

>>97499589
i've never seen a white scar melty before. thought all those guys were cool

>>97499602
If everyone plays his legions special units, then NO ONE is an NPC. Everyone has cool stuff to play with. While on the other hand everyone has to take the same options as everyone else, then yes suddenly the armies become NPCs and you win by stuff like, who got on the objective first, rolled better on his phosphex killing the other players tacticals. Even the guides that exist online tell that WS are best run with ZERO WS specific units, with the exeption of catapult stormseer. I mean the GW mother fuckers removed Khans bike for some reason.

Stop engaging the pole

>>97499644
Same case with Dangels only good unit we have is the deathwing terminators, the others fucking sucks.

ICK kinda blow chunks now, and getting them to a point is a bitch. Interemptors are turbo glass canons, you might get 1 shot off and anything beyond that is pure fucking luck.

Ill be honest outside of psykers, vehicle, and blast rules changes, 3.0 fucking sucks, and is flavorless as all hell.

A salamander stole my jetbike bros...

>>97499053
Have someone made an edition like that as a fan-project?

>>97499589
>I have exactly 9 outriders and 33 skyhunters. . 0 tacticals, 0 kratos.
Thats an example list, you could build it differently. If ALL you have is jetbikes then thats more a "you" issue than any fault of the games. You made an incredibly silly skew build, the sort of thing which inevitably collapses with any sort of adjustment because it is entirely reliant on one singular unit and unit type.

>I should just buy the most powerful ones aka one of the renegade ones
You mean heretics? Theyre not "better" than the loyalist legions. TS are strong with specific combinations, but salamanders and ravenguard are also very strong.

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>>97499675
The pole started it!

>>97498608
do you have a picture of said old art?

>>97499589
>But I do if I take Javelins
Javelins are an entirely usable unit, theyre worse than in 2e (where they were VERY good) but theyre still entirely usable. The other land speeders are also usable.

They went from "one of the best all round anti tank units" to situational anti tank/fire support platforms.

>The golden Keshig for some reason don't have venguard
Vanguard isnt actually "that" common. Theres plenty of units that dont have it, like cenobium.

>The Kazgyn make NO sense
It kills infantry, whats confusing?

>A predator is much better option then a speeder, has better weapons too.
A predator is also much more expensive than a speeder, much slower than a speeder, and cant deep strike - which while iffy on melee units now remains insanely good on ranged units.

>>97499589
>And yet all the cool moments from HH are Knight Cenobium soloing whole SoH armies, bike charges of the WS, mass orbital drops of BA jump troops,Mass units of IF templars storming out with Sigismund at their helm. Kharn at the front of crazed WE
No, those moments are generally fucking stupid. And they also do not translate at all into good gameplay.

"I want my big plot armor moment" is not a valid criticism of the game.

>>97499644
>If everyone plays his legions special units, then NO ONE is an NPC.
No you idiot. Everyone becomes an NPC, because everyone plays the exact same cookie cutter retardation as assigned by legion (ignoring that legion units are specialist units and designed to work as part of a combined arms force).

>then yes suddenly the armies become NPCs and you win by stuff like, who got on the objective first, rolled better on his phosphex killing the other players tacticals.
So "gameplay" and "strategy" and shit? Wow, that sure is worse than "which legion has the better WS5 terminator for killing other WS5 terminators?"!

>Even the guides that exist online tell that WS are best run with ZERO WS specific units
Okay? Even if we just assume those guides are correct. So what? Out of the three special WS units only one is part of the "Most optimal strategy"? Wow!

>>97499676
>ICK kinda blow chunks now
Theyre still a strong melee unit, they just arent OP like in 2e.
>getting them to a point is hard
Was both true last edition and is true of every cata terminator variant.
>interemptors are glass cannons
Yea? Thats a perfectly valid unit type. Theyre a legion destroyer variant (essentially), thats what those units are. Very high damage, very fragile body.

>>97498819
>If there are 200 units but only 3 are good you only have 3 units.
Reeking, rancid, bumjuice-gargling WAACfagoid detected.

>>97499644
>Even the guides that exist online tell that WS are best run with ZERO WS specific units
Wow thats crazy! meanwhile in 2e their best list was to spam Sagyar Mazan with inductii and run zero bikes or jetbikes.

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bros are actually building their lists with considerations besides what units they think would be cool to simulate fighting and dying

>>97500012
This game isn’t casual enough for that. Unironically 40k is more for that.

>>97500012
I used to do that, back when we had RoW and i did not need to play fucking Janga with my army anytime i wanted to remove or add an HQ slot.

The new army building system is fucking retarded, not because its complicated but because it had needless fucking requirements that makes it annoying as fuck to want to change anything up.

>>97500044
The requirement is "have characters", thats literally it. If you take a couple of centurions you have an excess of slots for whatever you want.

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Soon

>>97500131
God forbid if you use those characters to unlock other slots for things like transports and or other detachments.

>>97500012
I have a budget :(

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>>97500162
there are workarounds for everything
namely wartablegames and alex-wargames
i dunno how recent tariff fuckery for ameroids will interfere with the efficacy though

>>97500152
I’d actually lose my shit if these turn to plastic.

>>97500161
How many transports are you taking that youre wasting multiple slots on them?

>using them on other detachments
Yea? Thats how you get the things you want. You spend them on detachments, those detachments give you the units you want to take. If you want to change something, you simply take a different detachment instead.

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Unification Wars release when?
Thunder Warriors when?

>>97499429
I always liked the idea of a white scar heavy armor army. Like a fellblade backed up by kratos tanks and breachers in land raiders.

>>97500012
Unfortunately the local community is 3 guys (it was 1 guy during the 2.0 days), and one of us is more competitive-minded and apparently uses most of his income on buying shit (seems like he has $300 worth of new shit to try every week), so while militia vs aux kino is something I enjoy, I have to run marines and actually list tailor for the "meta"

>>97500212
Blitzkrieg tactics and shit. I see it.

>>97500212
None of those are bikes so you may as well be playing ultramarines.

>>97500197
Im just taking a single LR now.

My issue is that this system worked fine in 1.0 and 2.0. There was fuck all reason to rework the entire army building system.
Change for changes sake is aweful and its one of the things i hate the most, now i gotta fucking shuffle shit around to get anything to work any time im trying to run or build lists, and its tedious and annoying.

Im not saying its impossible, or even hard to do, its fucking ANNOYING to deal with when we never needed to deal with this.

I also dont like how open it turns list building into because before there were like themes to lists now its just a shmorgus board.

>>97500296
I think it just takes getting used to. Personally I find it a lot more convenient than in 2e

>I also dont like how open it turns list building into because before there were like themes to lists now its just a shmorgus board.
Thats true, but its also "kind of" not. You could do all sorts of whacky shit with RoW's, run all tanks with armored spearhead and so on. The shenanigans are largely the same in terms of whats out there, some options are off the table while new ones are now possible.

Its not "themed" for you, but you can still clearly theme your lists. And if anything I think the system does a good job at encouraging committing to themes via the slots. "branching out" to grab a unit from a slot type you don't have unlocked is often less worth it than just finding something that fits the slots you have. So sure, you CAN go all over the place and take "one support unit, one tank, one elite. one recon, one fast attack, one heavy assault, one war-machine" and so on, thats less efficient as a use of your slots than using whats available.

>>97500182
It's not too bad, just need to bundle around larger orders. Waiting to get my lorgar until I need to get stuff for my ultramarines for example.

>>97500322
Basically:
Theres a comparable/greater amount of "on paper" freedom, but the realities of the game and the system still encourage fairly standard armies which is what you will see for the most part. You dont need to take "1 HQ+ 2 troops" but everyone still does anyways unless theyre up to some really weird shit.

>>97500322
>It takes getting used to.
Im used to it anon, thats not my issue, its just needlessly teadious to list build around characters and shuffling shit around anytime i want to do something different or include something new. Like the fact i gotta have a Officer to take apoths is insanely stupid.

2.0 had issues with over crowding in some fields but that could have been overcome with just hte addition of a new support slot in the existing FOC, not a complete rework of it.

>>97500334
>and shuffling shit around anytime i want to do something different
But thats just all FoC, thats an inherent part of the system.

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No scan of Journal Tactica: Skitarii yet?

>>97500340
>Thats all FOC
No its not because in the old FOC i knew exactly how many slots i was working with for a given type of unit and what units were counted as that, now if i wanna take something different like lets say i decide the Librarian im using is not vibing for me, and instead i wanna drop him, well now i gotta sort out how i can bring the 2 other units he was unlocking when the only way to do that is to include another officer, or drop say my siege master down to a centurian, but now i lose my phosphex access so i cant do that.

So the system strong arms me into using a character that i dont wanna use. or take shit i dont wanna take because its how im unlocking other things.

The old FOC never did that. If i wanted to drop a character i could, and then everything else stayed the same.

>>97500359
>i knew exactly how many slots i was working with for a given type of unit and what units were counted as that
As opposed to now, where you have a random number of slots?

>>97500359
>but now i lose my phosphex access so i cant do that.
That was the case in 2e also iirc, you needed a siege breaker for phospex always

>>97500389
as opposed to it being tied directly to howmany and what type of HQs i take.
>>97500392
The siege breaker was just the example the main point is if i wanna drop an HQ slot because i dont feel i really need it, it now also effect me taking my other detatchments so im strong armed into taking an HQ to take shit I do want.

neither of those cases were in 1.0 or 2.0

If I took a Pride of the first, i knew i had 1 FA, 1 HS, 6(?) troops 4 Elites, and 3 HQs, i could take 1, or all 3 HQs and none of the other slots would change on me. Thats not the case now.

I think that was stupid, and i think it was a needless change, and it makes list building annoying, its not hard, its annoying there is a difference and i dont think GW needed to make it fucking annoying for no reason.

>>97500405
>as opposed to it being tied directly to howmany and what type of HQs i take.
Thats still a defined factor and a thing you control and can rely on. You may as well complain that in the previous FoC if you had four elites choices and wanted another you had to start rearranging things because you had to drop something.

>>97500405
Ignoring RoWs that required specific HQs, youre not actually describing a thing "that is now and wasnt then"

The previous limitation was RoW, the new limitation is centurions. You still had to rearrange things and face constraints and limitations. If you wanted to take a 2nd heavy support but you were running terror assault? Guess you need to change your RoW and now terror squads arent troops and you need to change more shit.

>>97500439
Right but i did not need to juggle prime slots and detachments just to get shit like transports, or elites.

Thats the part that no matter how you spin it, you cant get away from that fact.
ROW i could just pop down 1 HQ and then all the shit i wanted or needed was right there, i did not need to take HQs to take things like Transports for terminators, or Apothocaries, or tech marines, or even shit like Rapiers.
It was all just RIGHT THERE.

There is no arguing outta that because thats just factually how it worked.
Now, if i wanna run a terminator squad, a transport, and rapiers no matter what im gonna need to take more HQs and that means that those detatchments are now tied to that HQ and if i ever want to remove him, or change him, i gotta shuffle shit around to get it to work.

Its not hard to do, its just needlessly fucking tedious.

in 1.0 and 2.0 me changing an HQ slot did not effect the rest of the army.

>>97499584
Well I know the mauler was being worked on and so was a successor to the classic RT dread, there were plans to make a new edition of battlefleet gothic and epic, which they actually followed through with legions making the thing come full circle with HH taking designs from old epic/at88, modernizing them at 28mm and then turning them back into 6mm(or 8mm now). There were other plans that didn't pan out like a list for the generic imperial army, a small one for rogue traders like book 1 did for the ordo reductor, the siege of terra book and we all know what happened with angelus and other things. There is a metric ton that was just put aside to make room for releases that was felt would be liked by a bigger share of players, mostly legion ones but not necessarily and by the end of 1.0 FW was struggling getting a single book out let alone the amount required to put some of that out. AI came out right on schedule and so did AT but legions didn't which coupled with the fact that legions was meant to go hand in hand with black book releases like imperial armour had stats for epic armageddon and battlefleet gothic meant it had to be rearranged for 2.0 which was already being worked on after the release of Inferno once FW realized they couldn't keep going without the lead of Alan and had to change.

>>97500465
>Right but i did not need to juggle prime slots and detachments just to get shit like transports, or elites.
No, you just had to juggle a RoWs and their fixed slots. You were still juggling slots and still had to change shit if you wanted to take something new.

>Now, if i wanna run a terminator squad, a transport, and rapiers no matter what im gonna need to take more HQs
Theyre not tied to specific HQ's, its just a number. You dont actually need to remember which detachment is for which centurion.

>>97500480
There was no juggling in rights of war, you had everything you had access to up front, and ready to go once you picked a RoW, you knew your restrictions off the bat, and what the confines of your limitaitons were. Those limitations never changed based upon the HQ you took. Thats the part i hate. I dont see the need for this.
>Theyre not tied to specific HQ's, its just a number
THATS THE PROBLEM.
That did not need to be a mechanic in the game. thats my complaint here. I dont like that i have to have HQs to unlock shit, i dont like that my hand is forced to take units i dont want to take just to unlock the ones I do.

ROW i could take the units i wanted to take based upon a RoW which was a choice of limiting myself based upon slots from the start of my army building, not based on taking specific units of that army building.

>>97500498
>I dont like that i have to have HQs to unlock shit
You may as well say "I dont like to have ROWS to unlock shit" for how valid it is. You are still unlocking a set number of options with a choice, and if you change that choice you have a change in what things you can take.

If you decided you werent feeling like playing pride of the legion and wanted to play something else? Guess what, you now have to change your list. Youre still juggling restrictions to take the things you want.

>>97500514
Except RoW did not unlock shit, RoW just allowed you to take some units in other slots with limitations on another.
You did not lose access to units you still had them, they just took up different slots, and you knew this going in.

I really dont get how you are not seeing the issue here.

Lets try it with out even brining ROW into the equation.

If i took a single HQ, and took the standard FOC, i knew exactly how many slots i got for FA, Elite, HS, and Troops. No matter what i always got that same number i did not need to take HQs to get access to my LR as transports, i did not need ot take one to get access to Apoths or tech marines, or to rapiers, or to speeders and bikes, I could do it all from a single FOC.

>>97500531
>Doesn't remember the ROW that unlocked special wargear options (IH tss only allowed graviton guns in one specific ROW)
>Doesn't remember the ROW that unlocked units to be fielded as part of the legion (castellax, thallax as a most common example)
>Doesn't remember the ROW that flat out did not allow certain units (Drop pod assault being a prime example)

You're so full of shit lmfao. Starting to think you never even read the rules of older editions, never mind actually played.

This is a you problem.

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>>97500531
>i did not need to take HQs to get access to my LR as transports
Oof this, big time. Maybe units should still get Dedicated Transports stated on their datasheet, and if you want something else, that's what the Transport slots will be for.
Say a Veteran squad can take a Rhino DT...but if you want a Drop Pod, that's where a Transport slot helps you?

>>97500556
And again, if i picked that RoW i did not need to then take a bunch of HQs to satisfy arbitrary requierments to then take units.

We can do a thought experiment here.

using 2.0 what is the bare minimum i need to take to get access to
1 LR
A terminator retinue squad
A units of sky hunters
Apoth
And rapier.

Now whats the bare minimum to get access to the same thing using 3.0 list building.

>>97500569
DESU if they just brought back dedicated transports that alone would do a lot to help the tediousness of list building.

If you didn't nor feel any pressure or friction choosing ROWs then it was a badly designed ROW, because it's just free buffs and completely fucked up Amy balancing in force org
Most of the ROWs in 2nd were very poorly designed and balanced, because of how clearly rushed it was and how they wanted to push certain units (buy your plastic dreadnoughts goyim)
Anyone who'd rather go back to days where dark angels just had 6 flat out better versions of base ROWs needs to go back to 40k.

>>97500572
In 2.0 you had to take
HQ
and your 2 compulsery troops which if you used the base FOC was 2 tactical which everyon still takes in 3.0.
In 3.0
You would need to take a your high command to get access to your Apex to get retinue, then you would still need to take another HQ to get access to your support slot.

If you took a basic bitch centurion you could get access to a support detachment for the Apoth and Rapiers, then the other detachment could be your heavy transports, but you would need to burn your Prime slot to get the sky hunters.

God forbid if insetad of an cent you wanna take a Librarian because now you either gotta take another HQ to keep the shit you had or you gotta drop something from one of those detachments.

Its not complicated to do, but its needlessly fucking annoying.
>>97500604
I agree that not all RoW were balanced in 2.0 i would never even suggest that it was close in that regards. But im not arguing over balance.
RoW and the old FoC made shit monumentally less annoying to list build with.

I should put more status effects into my list

suggestions?

>>97500621
Yes status effects are really good to have.

>>97500621
If you ally in Solar Aux they can get access to some really good and cheap units that can dish out a lot of different statuses.
For marines Always take a havoc missile launcher for the chance to stun.

>>97500626
yeah but what units should I put in?

I got 3 havoc launchers already

>>97500621
corposant staves apply all three statuses to vehicles 1/3 of the time, meaning you're about 1/4 to give a vehicle which already has one status a HP (or 2 or 3 HP if it already has two or three statuses)

pairs well with graviton

>>97500662
The little walkers that Solar aux get is really good
Rapiers with phosphex are amazing, Panic 3 is scary as fuck.

If you take solar aux you can get basalisks which you can get to pinning 2 or medusas to get pinning 3.

>>97500615
>God forbid if insetad of an cent you wanna take a Librarian because now you either gotta take another HQ to keep the shit you had or you gotta drop something from one of those detachments
This big time. It's so weird that Consuls are Centurions Plus and cost more, but the army technically belongs to the lesser Centurions

>>97500672
GW really won with the new detachment system forcing you to buy more characters, their biggest earners (it's just a tactical model with some bling on it)

>>97500672
(Most) consuls are more like specialists and aren't part of the chain of command. Really, the fact that they're named consuls despite being below both a centurion or praetor is the confusing part.

>>97500672
Trust me i know, its fucking annoying as all hell, and i honestly think its a case of this >>97500676

I hate that i have to shuffle characters around to take the army i want, for no good reason other then uhhhhh you gotta take these characters....

>>97500531
>Except RoW did not unlock shit,
They literally unlocked EVERYTHING, they dictated how many slots you got, what could go in those slots, what equipment you got to take, what special rules you got. Everything was RoW.

>>97500685
ROW shuffled around what your limitations on your slots were, they did not lock slots behind them.

If I took the standard FoC, i got access to 3 FA slots, and anything that was an FA could be put into those slots. If I took Pride, i only got 1 FA, i did not magically lose access to anything that was an FA, just the amount of them i could take. I did not need to take an extra HQ to get access to my FA suddenly.

More importantly, this was a choice i had to make before i even started building.