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What's a popular JRPG opinion you regularly hear that is stupid?
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>>3904200
"Octopath 2 is the best JRPG"
*proceeds without giving any arguments or comparisons*
-Octopath 2 fans
"Persona is peak turn based combat"
"Xenogears has the best story of all JRPGs"
"SMT V is what I hoped from Pokemon!"
"Unicorn Overlord is not an autobattler. FE is an autobattler."
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>>3904227
>SMT V is what I hoped from Pokemon!
Christ dude, I love Pokemon, SMT, and a ton of /mon/ games, but it makes my blood boil when every single game in this genre gets compared to Pokemon by tourists. Especially in """reviews""", they can't discuss anything without the lense of Pokemon
Also, anyone who uses the word "peak" seriously. Immediately disregard what they say.
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>>3904200
>What's a popular JRPG opinion you regularly hear that is stupid?
"Final Fantasy 9 is a good game/great game/the best game in the series"
Apparently it's also been long enough that zoomers are saying, "akshually, Chrono Cross was good" now.
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>>3904200
>FF7 is overrated
>FFTA is bad because too childish
>This game should be remade in HD-2D
>>3904205
Anybody who says this doesn't actually like turn-based combat.
>>3904220
It's not a masterclass, but I do think most RPGs do need some of the level of detail & prose that Trails had, at least from the Sky trilogy.
This is speaking from someone who dislike the boringness and anime-tropeyness of Trails plot, I think most JRPGs ignore alot of details which can be immersion-breaking.
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>"FF15 has the best gameplay of any SE game"
bullshit
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>>3904220
>>3904280
Generally agree here - TitS is pretty dang generic in terms of its overall plot (if at least competent within being generic). That shouldn’t be anyone’s focus when looking at what to take from the games. What they are good at is taking all the generic npcs that tend to get brushed aside in other games of the same style and making them into people who actually live in the world. And that makes them memorable - which is a good thing! More games should try to emulate that aspect of success.
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>>3904200
I know this is a bit off topic. But doesn't it feel weird when Japanese developers talk about “wide appeal” as if their stuff wasn't made to appeal to as many people as possible? It's a strange universe where they and anime fans feel persecuted even though anime is mainstream and does everything it can to be relevant.
>Everyone must be beautiful
for some reason background is irrelevant
>fashion sense
everyone wears designer clothes despite their background saying otherwise
>Everyone knows kung fu
Uganda
>Tropes, tropes on top of tropes
tropey written to the point that you can predict the plot from the first line of dialogue
Even the difficulty part is bullshit. When ball busting difficult games are best selling games
>muh streamingslop
if they didn't like it, they wouldn't buy it
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>>3904200
>she is a knight/tank but her outfit is too gooner/silly/ridiculous! womyn in old jrpgs always dresses properly!
yeah its not like dragon quest 2 or whatever obscure pc88/98 games made bikini armor a thing noope
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>>3904220
Came here for this. The amount of people I see claiming Trails is a good example of story, character and world building drives me up the fucking wall. This is just bloat. It's disgusting that people can call this anything remotely well written.
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>>3904710
>Some people genuinely don't like not being able to see fights coming and/or having infinite fights in an area. The simple solution to please them is having enemy sprites in the overworld which you can try and avoid
that means for people playing proficiently you simply avoid combat 99% of the time. It's a fundamentally different experience to random encounters
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>>3904200
>FF5 has a fun job system, but it has no story
>FF10 is one of the best video games of all time, period
These two opinions only exist in the absolute wasteland of movie-game supremacy, where every single sentiment and emotion needs to be spoonfed to you through repetitive dialogue and frequent cinematic cutscenes. The fallout of such games dominating the genre results in people thinking movies can be great games, and that great games that aren't movies somehow have "no story".
>>3904688
>This is just bloat. It's disgusting that people can call this anything remotely well written.
Yeah, I watched my friend try to slog through TiTS a couple of years ago and I immediately understood why people might assume it has good writing. But more than likely, those are people who grew up watching a lot of shitty TV, playing late 90s/early00s movie-games, and generally just not understanding good pacing or characterization; i.e., most products of a post-"Nation at Risk" western educational system.
The thing about Trails is that there's a lot of text, and some solid characterization, which results in a lot of potential. Arguably enough to trick people into thinking there's depth. But the actual structure of the story and the redundancy of 90% of the dialogue is utterly insufferable if you have critical thinking skills, or a functional short-term memory. Plus, once you've played more than one of these games, the sunk-cost fallacy starts to come into play, and some people will NEVER admit how fuckawful they are, even as they get exponentially worse.
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>>3904710
>Some people genuinely don't like not being able to see fights coming and/or having infinite fights in an area. The simple solution to please them is having enemy sprites in the overworld which you can try and avoid
I'm often annoyed by visible enemies because they're generally not handled well. Often times, due to close quarters and narrow hallways, you're forced to fight them all anyway, which I find more annoying than random. It gets even worse in games like Chrono Cross where you don't even level up or get much of anything for fighting standard encounters. It kind of makes it all feel more like tedious busywork, especially when, even if you run, the enemy will still be blocking your way. It's a million times worse if the enemies can cluster around you, locking you in place until you beat them all (looking at you Grandia/Grandia II).
>>3904653
>What they actually don't like is high encounter RATE
IMO, the problem with random encounters is that, toward the end of the 90s, they all started to take too damn long while not being particularly difficult or engaging, which leads to boredom.
For example, early JRPG battles were more difficult, but also faster. You had to make good strategic decisions (use status effects/buffs, prioritize more dangerous targets, etc), then you saw them play out in under a minute and got on with your life. Sometimes in 30 seconds or less. Then, as games "progressed" battles became easier. By the mid 90s, most random encounters are cleared by mindlessly mashing "attack", and maybe an AOE spell to pick off stragglers. This wouldn't be a huge issue if it weren't for the fact that over the next several years, battles become bloated; longer intro animations and load times, more intricate/longer attack animations, as well as more intrusive victory animations and menu screens. This combination just makes it all feel like a pointless chore.
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>>3904886
>take too damn long while not being particularly difficult or engaging,
This is FFX's combat system to a tee. They were kind of on to something with having certain enemies being weak or resistant to attack types beyond just elements, but once you've seen all the tricks, it basically just turns every encounter into a tedious match of party swapping and rock-paper-scissors. And the encounter rate in X is fucking stupidly high. I feel like they were trying to balance all the time the player spends watching cutscenes by having encounter trigger every 5 steps once you finally get control.
Additionally, it's what I hate about the sphere grid customization system. It only really exists to mitigate the forced tedium by allowing one character to earn another's abilities so you have to swap less often, but ultimately, the entire sphere grid is just turning what should be a passive act of leveling and gaining stats and abilities into a braindead, deconstructed, time-wasting board game, again probably to distract from the fact that 80% of the game is cutscenes.
Christ, FFX is so bad.
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>>3904280
>This game should be remade in HD-2D
The shame of it is that HD-2D is a good idea, just horribly mis-used. Too many of the HD-2D games just suffer from bloat, because devs are afraid of creating a sensibly-sized, 30-40 hour adventure, like an old-school JRPG should be.
If you take the HD remake of Dragon Quest 2, for example, shrink the world map by 50%, and cut out half the dialogue, it would actually be a phenomenal little game with decent challenge and a lot of charm. But as it stands, it's just too much pomp and circumstance for the level of gameplay you're actually partaking in, and the oppressive size of the world and the amount of blather begins to actively degrade what should be key elements in a game like this—exploring everywhere and talking to everyone.
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>>3904220
people only say this because average jrpg worldbuilding is 99/100 times super fucking generic and basic so a series that at least tries to actually flesh it out (even though the average wrpg still has a more fleshed out setting in 1 game than trails has in 10) gets insane amounts of praise because the average jrpgfag doesnt know any better
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>>3904220
crossbell duology is a masterclass in writing and worlbuilding and by playing the 3 sky games you can appreciate it more. Cold steel onwards the writing got worse though I agree. Still in terms of worldbuilding name 1 jrpg that has a bigger world with varied political aspects such as trails.
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>>3904200
I just hate how much time every single JRPG wastes. They seem to relish disrespecting your time even with the animations that come in between animations, menu scrolling, battle intros, battle outros, flourishes. They use the same brush they use to make those 25 minute cutscenes to make every other aspect of the game down to menu fonts. And that brush is a paint roller.
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>>3907545
>villain who has been planning his epic plan for decades gets talked down in 5 seconds
>then another shitty villain pretends to kill him for absolutely no reason instead of just killing him
>game then just ends abruptly with "please play cold steel" while also spoiling a bunch of shit that happens in the process because they didnt want to actually write an ending
its awful the game completely shits the bed at the final dungeon in general
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>>3906705
It doesn't though. It doesn't TRY to flesh out anything. It just gives you a lot of pointless text to where NPCs have more to say than your own party members but not of it matters worth a lick. It's all just repeating shtick. I LIKE TO FISH! LET'S SPEND MULTIPLE GAMES TALKING ABOUT FISH! OH THAT OTHER PERSON LIKES FISH! WE TOTES BECAME COUPLE!
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>>3904200
>I hate trails, therefore I will larp like any game could replace it despite their gameplay being totally dissimilar.
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>>3908058
yeah i know trails is mostly just filler fluff but they still try to actually flesh out the setting more than the vast majority of jrpgs do which says more about how shit most jrpg worldbuilding is than it does about good trails's worldbuilding is
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>>3904227
>"Octopath 2 is the best JRPG"
Never heard anyone say this, usually its people shitting on it.
>proceeds without giving any arguments or comparisons*
Usually the people shitting on it can’t say anything bad about it other than “story bad” or “it looks ugly” or “it has an ugly artstyle” both which are completely subjective arguments talking about the most subjective part of a videogame. Never mention anything about gameplay not even once, if they do they will just say its bad or the dungeons are linear or some other dishonest statement.
>”Persona is peak turn based combat"
Assuming you’re talking about 5, while I wouldn’t use the word “peak” it is certainly good, just a little bit too easy.
>”Xenogears has the best story of all JRPGs"
Anyone who ever argues with the story is a retard. Without fail. I have never played this game and I don’t doubt the story being good but that being the only selling point is precisely why I’ve never taken any interest in it.
>”SMT V is what I hoped from Pokemon!"
Yeah anyone who wants other series to be something else is a retard. If you like smt and hate pokemon then why not play smt and just ignore pokemon entirely? It shows insecurity and that they are more worried about sales than the game they claim to enjoy.
>"Unicorn Overlord is not an autobattler. FE is an autobattler."
Never heard this one before but boy is that a fucking retarded statement it almost sounds like a troll, or just someone pretending to be retarded
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>>3904200
"my favorite JRPG is nier automata"
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>>3904227
>>3904229
This. I enjoy P5 combat more then most JRPGs. Has the FF10 swap during combat, but on steroids, clean stylistic UI that uses hotkeys instead of scrolling through tons of menus, press system and other things I can't remember of the top of my head.
>"SMT V is what I hoped from Pokemon!"
I mean it is better then Pokemon. Has cool demons instead of little kid animals, has a fusion and inheritance system, has the same combat as persona 5.
>"Unicorn Overlord is not an autobattler. FE is an autobattler."
Never heard anyone say this. Unicorn Overlord is good, but it's literally an auto battler.
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>>3908280
>but that being the only selling point is precisely why I’ve never taken any interest in it.
Add amazing soundtrack, amazing artstyle, amazing graphics, really, now i know gameplay is the most important aspect for a lot of people, but it's the only really flaw of the game
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>>3908280
>Never heard anyone say this, usually its people shitting on it.
Octopathfags on this imageboard are pretty much fujos and waifufags, but I've seen the ones on fb/twitter/reddit calling it this way, without any arguments whatsoever.
>Usually the people shitting on it can’t say anything bad about it other than “story bad” or “it looks ugly” or “it has an ugly artstyle” both which are completely subjective arguments talking about the most subjective part of a videogame.
How can you call something best in the first place without any arguments to begin with, if you don't want people to point out the contradictions?
>Assuming you’re talking about 5, while I wouldn’t use the word “peak” it is certainly good, just a little bit too easy.
Yeah it's 5. But the "best turn based combat" claim is pretty stupid in the first place, and is a clear sign of lack of experience.
>dungeons are linear
How is this dishonest? It's truly an objective flaw on a game people claim as the "best JRPG ever".
>Never heard this one before but boy is that a fucking retarded statement it almost sounds like a troll, or just someone pretending to be retarded
Boy you should check the archive on here and on /v/. Although I do agree this is a rather niche one by a single person, but it's rather glaringly stupid and so out-of-there that I felt the need to post it here. Also that particular person being unabashedly vocal about it doesn't help either.
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>>3910600
>without any arguments to begin with
>contradiction
Depends on context but every single experience I’ve had with any rpg in this board is that you give an argument regarding its gameplay and they reply with an argument regarding its story while avoiding the initial argument altogether. I have certainly never ever seen the claim you’re making and telling me “it happens in facebook” is a vaguepost at best.
>”best turn based combat" claim is pretty stupid in the first place
Never seen anyone say this but its probably the best atlus has come up with, auto-buff just makes it really easy to break random encounters and merciless is poorly balanced. P3R is another strong contender but auto-buff is an even bigger issue in it. Generally they are games where the enemy absolutely can fuck you up but if you know what you are doing you can fuck them up in turn before they get to act, the problem therein is not the lack of rng but the lack of pressure to maintain your setup, auto-mabuff makes encounters trivial as a result even on the hardest difficulty (p5 excluded since they increase weakness damage on merciless).
>How is this dishonest?
Extremely dishonest, especially if we are comparing it to the rpgs its a spiritual successor to, which have the same “flaw”. I wouldn’t call them amazing dungeons or a selling point by any means but they are certainly serviceable and pretty to look at. Criticizing it from this point is just grasping at straws and complete dishonesty. The only actual criticism people give octopath is the story and at best its a preference point since that type of storytelling can appeal to some people, its completely subjective. If you want to give some honest criticism to octopath then try mentioning actual problems like the protagonist lock until you beat their story which makes you overlevel them affecting clean progression or if you try to bumrush their story it imbalances the rest of the game via overpowered equipment access.
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>>3910600
>criticizing the dungeons isn’t dishonest
Almost all of the dungeons aren’t linear so it is very dishonest and this is talking about the first one specifically as they get more elaborate in the second. You could say they “lack mechanics” but you can say this about pretty much any of the rpgs it supercedes, like bravely default or FF3. The dungeons are not even a selling point its the combat.
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>>3910604
>Depends on context but every single experience I’ve had with any rpg in this board is that you give an argument regarding its gameplay and they reply with an argument regarding its story while avoiding the initial argument altogether.
> I have certainly never ever seen the claim you’re making and telling me “it happens in facebook” is a vaguepost at best.
I have stated sources of my examples yet you claim I am vagueposting
>especially if we are comparing it to the rpgs its a spiritual successor to
But they definitely have better dungeons than Octopath. Octopath dungeons are literal hallways with nothing interesting within them. No special encounters, just treasure chests and bosses.
I do agree if you want to say they are basically like Suikoden's, literal hallways
>>3910608
>Almost all of the dungeons aren’t linear
This is literally wrong.
>The dungeons are not even a selling point its the combat
The combat is literally "break weaknesses spam your strongest attack" (or at least until you get broken stuff) where you are not allowed to experiment with other type of playstyles.
I think I should have added "Octopath combat is so good" as one of the worst claims as well.
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>>3908125
No they don't. Just because they have a different novella hidden inside every new library or book store doesn't mean the world is fleshed out. Especially when every goddamn city is more or less still the same shit of npcs going on about the same orbal bullshit. What do you people think a fleshed out world means?
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>>3910615
>stated sources
“I read it on facebook” isn’t a source.
>But they definitely have better dungeons than Octopath.
They did not. They follow the same design style of being maze-like with treasures in hidden corners.
>Octopath dungeons are literal hallways
They literally are not. The very first Cyrus dungeon disproves this completely and they only get more complex the further you go into the game.
>No special encounters, just treasure chests and bosses.
Exactly the same as its predecessors but to say no special encounters is also dishonest when a lot of the dungeons aren’t linear also hidden and have a special prize in the end usually guarded by a boss. You can also return to most of these to encounter the boss in a random encounter and capture it with the hunter.
>where you are not allowed to experiment with other type of playstyles.
This is a completely dishonest statement disregarding entirely all the job combinations you can do that directly affect your playstyle and how you approach a battle or having to play around the break system in order to use it to your advantage in a myriad of different ways especially in octopath 2. Why don’t you try telling me what exactly is so bad about the combinations you can do? Because the games itemization and job system has enough depth for you to even make a character thats ordinarily a melee attacker like Therion into a fulltime caster and theres myriad of other examples like this. For example in the second game I can use a class meant for melee damage to empower Osvalds magic and its literally the strongest magic setup, or I can use him as a break machine and debuffer instead with arcanist and give armmaster to hikari for a more straightforward melee attacker.
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>>3904275
Chrono Trigger is actually good, though.
There are people who jizz way too hard about it, but it is a legitimately high-quality game. A large majority of its critics are too stupid to distinguish between difficulty and quality. Retards think that because Chrono Trigger is a forgiving game, that it's automatically bad. Or they lose their minds because Chrono Trigger doesn't have a dozen different classes and hundreds of abilities or complex formation mechanics or smrpg-style timed hits or whatever other arbitrary thing that any given retard decides is the Most Important Part of an RPG.
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>>3910617
What a fucking stupid post. Every npc in trails updates their dialogue because you have little stories going on in the background as the main story progresses. For example the npc Milano and her attendant show up in Rolents bar and talk about the business they are making and how well its going, they even talk about how they wish they got the esmelas crystal before the mayor. You encounter them later in bose concerned about her fathers well-being who was inside the airliner that goes missing in the main story. A lot of world building occurs subtly as well. For example i didn’t notice until recently but in the ending of trails 1st if you talk to olivier before going to Joshua he actually recognizes the song hes playing on the harmonica and says its an erebonian song, this literally all hints to Joshuas origins which aren’t explained until the next game. Joshua also gets upset when estelle wonders if all erebonians are like olivier, this happens as early as Bose. Many more other examples, like Joshua getting a headache mysteriously the first time they encounter Alba.
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>>3910622
>“I read it on facebook” isn’t a source.
It's clearly telling that you don't want to do your own research just because of your blind fanboyism.
Look at the amount of superlative claims that just reeks of blatant shilling with no arguments.
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>>3910627
>don’t want to do your own research
You’re the one who claimed this. A handful of faceboom posts isn’t evidence of this either. This is literally just generalizing and no different to doing what you are criticizing those cherrypicked posts of doing except its just baseless hatred instead
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>>3910627
This is literally all people saying how much they enjoyed the game. I don’t really understand how they are downplaying other games by stating their opinion. You could call them cattle but none of this is exactly offensive nor is it unique to this game. Octopath isn’t even particularly popular, neither is Bravely Default. Your argument is far more applicable to games that are far more popular. You’d have a point if they were using the game to shit on another but you’re the only one who is doing this here.
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>>3910631
Your “evidence” is literally just a bunch of people who like the game. You can say this about literally any game. Why don’t you just say you hate the game and hate that people like it? Whats your favorite game so I can shit on it just because too.
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>>3910635
>you can’t say your favorite game is best even if its “your opinion” in a casual conversation online
Post your favorite rpg game so we can also critically dismantle its flaws with subjective opinions like “all of these hidden corners and forks on this simplistic early game dungeon are linear because theres no levers to push or moving platforms to stand on”
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>>3910636
>favorite jayrpg
I'll bite. FFVII (PS1)
>"all of these hidden corners and forks on this simplistic early game dungeon are linear because theres no levers to push or moving platforms to stand on”
Nobody said it was the lack of puzzles, meaningless puzzles are equally bad.
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>>3906673
>What's wrong with pixel remaster games.
Suppose you bought pixel remaster, and you started at Final Fantasy 1, because why not start off at the beginning. The game suggests you playing a party with a Ft, Bb, Wm, Bm. You instead decide to play the classic Ft, Th, Bb, Rm, in part to see if they fixed the broken Thief class, but also because you played the original and know how bad mages were. You start playing and notice that yes, they had fixed the thief class. You notice some other minor changes, the levels are going up faster than they should, but nbd. You notice innefectives no longer occur, which was expected. And you notice that every enemy in the game has the exact same hp as the original. Great you think, I can run through this with minimal grinding. And you go about doing just that. You reach the final dungeon, you fight the four fiends again, which have the same hp as the classic, 400, 600, 800, 1000.
You heal up, get ready to fight Chaos. You clock what you are pretty sure was 2000 hp off him, still hasn't fallen. You clock 3000, then 4000, nothing yet. He casts Curaja and heals himself back to full. Back to square one, and he already pwned your Red Wizard. You die. You try it again like 5 times. You go on the Internet, to find out what the fuck. 20000 hp -they added a fucking zero to Chaos's hp. Why? Under what circumstances could you have expected that based on the game you played so far. You want to beat the game though, so you keep trying and after 30 or so wipes and restarts, you defeat him. Wtf? Who fucking set Chaos's hp? Why wasn't he publicly fired?
Now you play FF2, but you can't allow this to happen twice. So you go to the config, and bump up the experience to 4x. You do it again with FF3. These games become too fucking easy, but how will you know? You don't know. At any point a boss could literally have a 0 tacked onto his hp. The rest of pixel remaster is ruined.
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>>3910645
But I never claimed it's the best RPG ever, at least universally, just my particular favorite. I know its flaws. I acknowledge I liked it because the themes resonates with me, and the materia system is incredible&unique.
Linear dungeons? Really? You think it is more linear than Octopath?
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>>3910650
Yes absolutely, at least about the same as Octopath. The battle system is also more barebones compared to octopath and most of the game with the exception of the superbosses can be beaten with a simple attack and cure.
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>>3910650
You’re getting mad at youtubers talking with authority because they aren’t glazing the games you think are the best ever. Learn to ignore. Some random schmuck on facebook or twitter talking about the game they really like is not a fucking sin and getting outraged about it only makes you an unlikeable cunt
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>>3910691
It is easy to disprove this just right from the beginning of ff7. You are the dishonest one in this regard. I gave you a material to nitpick yet you chose to vaguepost/blatantly lie just to inflate your own ego.
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>>3910627
>Look! People are saying they like the game a lot without defending their thesis!
You can find this for any semi popular game, what's your point? Just because people aren't argumentative autists when they bring up their opinion doesn't make them shills.
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>>3912609
It is. In FF7 you don’t use ailments or aggro mechanics. Buffs also don’t become an actual necessity until superbosses like emerald weapon and generally the only one you use is hero’s drink which is a literal buff all item you can stack for times to double all your modifiers so even that is simplisticx You can say this about pretty much every mainline FF until FFX. Hell even FF7 remake has more intricate combat mechanics and buff usage than the original despite not being turn based, it even has aggro mechanics.
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>>3912616
Not the dude you're arguing with but I'll level with you. I have no weight in this argument and don't really care for it but I scan read your post all I took away from it was:
>buff agro buff agro *duck slurping noises*
You may resume shitposting.
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>>3904224
I'll turn this around.
Short RPGs *can* be better, so long as they take advantage of their shortness to provide you with radical levels of freedom and immense replayability.
Otherwise, longer games are generally better, so long as the things you actually do while playing matter more than what you picked on your stat sheet several dozen hours ago when you didn't know any better.
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>>3912616
Lol I think you skimmed a whole game on your critique there.
And why is the emphasis on having aggro mechanics here?
What about materia combos, elemental variety, the amount of status effects FFVII had?
I rather have all of variety than being forced to boost-and-break everyone in Octopath.
Also where is the dungeon design part that I compared from the start with in FF7?
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>>3911112
>You can find this for any semi popular game, what's your point? Just because people aren't argumentative autists when they bring up their opinion doesn't make them shills
Sounds like you dont understand what the term 'shilling' means.
It is literally when you overhype something with no actual basis of argument.
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>>3904891
>the oppressive size of the world and the amount of blather begins to actively degrade what should be key elements in a game like this—exploring everywhere and talking to everyone.
The same thing applies to the most recent DQ3 remake and I assume the Live A Live remake as well.
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>>3913649
>And why is the emphasis on having aggro mechanics here?
Because it adds depth instead of being an attack/cure game. Some of the most fun rpgs I’ve played have them, such as etrian odyssey and most western rpgs.
>What about materia combos, elemental variety, the amount of status effects FFVII had?
First of all if we are comparing this to octopath, octopath has all of that its own way and actually makes use of all of it instead of just elemental weaknesses. Status effects in FF7 are not useful, not even in the harder boss fights. “Elemental variety” is also an extremely weak statement to use here, sure elemental weaknesses are fun but unless you are a zoomer playing zoomer “rpgs” like ffxiv or ffxvi every rpg has them.
>I rather have all of variety than being forced to boost-and-break everyone in Octopath.
In order to break enemies you need to abuse elemental weaknesses and status effects. The game is also heavily centered around buffs and debuffs, BP and MP are also both separate resources to manage with BP being the more interesting one. FF7 is definitely not a game with interesting resource management in combat, MP being scarce during exploration is not even an issue in that game.
>Also where is the dungeon design part that I compared from the start with in FF7?
Some anon said, dunno if you, the very retarded statement that octopath dungeons are “linear”, so I said FF7’s are also linear. They tried to disprove the statement by saying “the very beginning of ff7 disproves this” which is a false statement since the beginning of ff7 id entirely linear. Thats about it.
FF as a series didn’t start making heavy use of things like ailments, debuffs and more than just basic speed buffs or attack buffs until FF10 came along. To say these things don’t add to the combat experience is dishonest. I like older ff btw, its not like I cannot appreciate even within their simplicity, I also like grinding in games just dont wanna be dishonest
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>>3913951
He’s not wrong.
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Magic_(Final_Fantasy_VII)
I don’t remember having to use any defensive buffs in ff7 and outside of haste and heros drink no other useful offensive buffs exist. Reflect also had use case but not really particularly useful since your party is composed mainly of physical attackers. I don’t remember ever having to use Regen or any ailments either.
FF1-6 and FF8-9 are pretty much like this as well, especially FF9, FF8 has a couple of indirect ways to “break it” but they aren’t really conventional moreso than just creative but inpractical.
Meanwhile in FF10 if you don’t use protect/shell you might get filtered in some fights and Rikku is basically the epitome of “a variety of effects”. FF12 was a buff/debuff management game like FF11 and FF13 had roles entirely dedicated to buffs and debuffs which were necessary to use. Not gonna talk about ff14 onwards since thats basically when the games stopped being rpgs unless we talk about ff14 1.0 i guess.
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>>3913957
I'm sure he'll tell you about how he made heavy use of ailments in every random instead of mashing attack and winning even faster the older FFs.
Oh and using zombie and potions/cures on the few bosses not immune to that? Deep.
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>>3913957
I guess there's the weasel word of "heavy" in there to give some subjective wiggle room, but just seems like a totally bizarre claim to make. Enemies using status effects like poison, paralyze, blind, confuse, silence, sleep, stone, toad, etc have been a part of the series since FF1 on the NES. Iconic enemies like the Marlboro are known for going "lol fuck you here's every status effect at once"
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>>3913993
>enemies
This is what I hate about people like you. We are talking about the use of these things in the game and in order to grasp at straws to try and win the argument you bring up enemies when we’re clearly talking about player use. You can argue semantics if you want but this is the typical dishonest dogshit bad faith arguments that are commonly made about anything here that result in threads like this. Octopath gets shat on for being a “just break the enemy game” but the anon arguing about that doesn’t even know enough about the game to defend his stance then gets offended when it gets compared to one of his favorite rpgs, shattering the illusion hes baked for years.
I don’t even hate ff7, i love the nes era rpgs that were literally just attack and heal. I just wish you faggots would see things for what they are instead of shitting on something new because its “new” or you don’t like how it looks.
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>>3913998
I’m not arguing with you, dipshit. I was cruising by and a ridiculous claim caught my eye and I responded to that claim, and now you’re writing multiple paragraphs about how I’m “dishonest” and posting in “bad faith”. Not even going to read the rest of your post.
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>>3914011
You know there's a good dozen statuses spells you can use in FF8. Nevermind the whole tutorial on junctioning statuses attacks before the T-rexaur fight.
But really it sounds like Crystal Project is more up your street than any final fantasy game. I suggest you give it a whirl.
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>>3913957
>Meanwhile in FF10 if you don’t use protect/shell you might get filtered in some fights
Outside of the optional giganigga battles there is no reason to ever use protect or shell, and most of the enemies you'd want to use debuffs against are immune to them.
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>>3914033
>sweeping claim
Anything will be this to you as long as you don’t agree with it. Let me show you actual sweeping claims though:
>>3910600
>Octopathfags on this imageboard are pretty much fujos and waifufags, but I've seen the ones on fb/twitter/reddit calling it this way, without any arguments whatsoever.
>>3910615
>But they definitely have better dungeons than Octopath. Octopath dungeons are literal hallways with nothing interesting within them. No special encounters, just treasure chests and bosses.
>The combat is literally "break weaknesses spam your strongest attack" (or at least until you get broken stuff) where you are not allowed to experiment with other type of playstyles.
The second one is rich, considering where the rest of the conversation leads and his source being a bunch of facebook posts. When the argument stops being about the fanbase or the story it suddenly becomes much harder to defend your stance.
>>3914037
Seymour fight in the mountain filters most newcomers to rpgs precisely because they don’t use it. Also yes I won’t deny that, FFX isn’t flawless, its a game where every character ends up functionally the same and has terrible superboss fights that are just literal hp sponges you spam attack on in the international version. Doesn’t change my point though, that only applies to the very endgame of that game, after grinding for literal max stats and like I said before I am not gonna be dishonest.
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>>3914076
>>sweeping claim
>Anything will be this to you as long as you don’t agree with it.
The sweeping claim in question:
>FF as a series didn’t start making heavy use of things like ailments, debuffs and more than just basic speed buffs or attack buffs until FF10 came along
Do you deny that that’s a sweeping claim?
Just seems like a ridiculous thing to claim. I even asked him “what” to elaborate and clarify what he meant, because it seems like such a silly thing to say for anyone who’s actually played those games (I have played all 1 through 10).
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>>3914082
That was thouroughly explained and backed up. I did not deny it at all and it is not a ridiculous claim to make. Old ff is pretty much just attack and heal and yes i am including elemental weaknesses when I say this. The very reason why the spiritual successors to old ff like octopath and bravely did the bp system is precisely to give something fresh but also familiar and it is done well.
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>>3914082
I literally linked the spell list to FF. Theres alot of defensive buff spells but none of them are actually necessary to use, theres regen but its not actually useful just kinda there, theres reflect but your only caster dies, and then theres haste. I don’t remember making active use of ailments in ff7 or any old ff either. I do remember actively using them tho in ff10-13 including in the final boss. I dont even hate old ff, its just something glaringly easy to notice about them, it doesn’t make them into bad games it just shows newer games in the series improved the formula.
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>>3914076
>Octopathfags on this imageboard are pretty much fujos and waifufags, but I've seen the ones on fb/twitter/reddit calling it this way, without any arguments whatsoever.
You are not making any sense desu.
What is the correlation between those two?
Octopath threads in /vrpg/ is full of waifuposting and nothing gameplay-related stuff - I have never seen people argue about its objective qualities. The reason I brought up those fb/twitter/reddit posts is because those opinions are so different than the one being posted here (as if there was any opinion being posted here to begin with)
>The second one is rich, considering where the rest of the conversation leads and his source being a bunch of facebook posts.
Why did you try to connect those unrelated posts to begin with? Those social media screencaps were to prove another point, the dungeon design part is another topic entirely.
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>>3914319
I was showing him what a sweeping claim looked like.
The second point was actually about the other sweeping claim of using weaknesses to break enemies not dungeon design, if you’re the same guy who says ff7 is his favorite rpg then criticizing that point is the rich part because the main thing you do in older ff titles is exploit weaknesses.
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>>3914153
Pretty sure he was referring to having to use ailments standardly or at least situations were using an ailment to shut down an enemy is the most effective strat.
Also Bio in ff5 is technically a damage spell, it has initial damage and the added effect of a dot. Its initial damage is pretty much better damage than the -ra line unless you can exploit weakness so it makes sense why it would have a frequent use case. If it worked like a standard poison you would likely never use it. The spell also gets powercrept eventually by the -ga line so its not really a good way to show you use ailments in ff5, you use bio in that game simply because it deals good damage.
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>>3914132
Your post talked about your personal and subjective experiences while playing one game FF7, while completely glossing over 2/3rds of the series while handwaving. Hence, a sweeping statement describing ten games, while only actually talking about one.
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>>3914403
I can talk at length about the other games in the series if you really want to. Point out where in ff4, 5 or 6
Its useful to use ailments, buffs and debuffs and how frequently? If all you’re gonna do is cherry pick a boss then you’re not really giving an argument.
I am not even gonna consider ff1, ff2 does make frequent use of buff stacking in bosses though probably the only one I can actually give you.
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>>3914403
It might be a generalization but do you even remember how those games played?
This is just of the top of my head but:
>haste saber and temper in ff1 no other buff is useful
>ff2 tons of buff stacking
>ff3 this is quite literally an attack and heal game
>ff4 haste I guess? This is literally an attack and heal game
>ff5 quick, hastega, mighty guard and thats about it
>ff6 haste and quick
>ff7 haste and heros drink
>ff9 haste and mighty guard, tons of passive abilities to just start with buffs applied
I don’t remember ailments being useful on any of these outside of fringe cases. Ff8 is the only one I didn’t include since its the only one I didn’t play but from what little research I did its not much different either just can do some wacky shit due to the level scaling and junctions affecting stats directly.
I mean its not really wrong what that post is implying unless you actually wanna post some examples to disprove it but older ff isn’t exactly known for its mechanical complexity. You don’t do some crazy buff autisitic management or ailment abuse like you would in an rpg like EO or 7th dragon.
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>>3914411
Thats not an argument or example just a hypocritical statement. Don’t try to pretend any of what you said wasn’t discussed at length already with plenty of points made. You accuse someone of making sweeping arguments yet you refuse to even provide an argument of your own.
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>>3914416
>ff4 haste I guess? This is literally an attack and heal game
Berserk, Blink, Wall. All exceptionally powerful buffs in FF4. If you didn't use all three (especially the first two) then you don't understand the game well enough to comment on it. (beating a final fantasy game by out-leveling the content doesn't teach you anything)
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>>3914404
Slow is useful on Zeromus, one of the most challenging bosses in the series.
Bosses are immune to most ailments bu many normal enemies can be effectively debilitated, which is often far more efficient than brute force damage and healing. Frog and tiny are often a cheap way to completely eliminate a threat while pig and mute are very cheap spells that disable many enemy abilities and counter-attacks.
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>>3914444
I beat the game and the superboss in the remake. You don’t have to use any of those and unless the character is a spellcaster all you use is attack. I even played all the final bosses of the game with the bard, who is easily the most useless character (unless we’re talking about the 3d remake).
>>3914446
The point is none of those are actually needed. I mean be serious, did you actually spend turns in random encounters casting that and then killing them or did you just kill them? How many strong encounters are actually susceptible to anything beyond slow?
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>>3914461
>You don’t have to use any of those
This is a stupid measure of a game, though. It shows you fundamentally don't understand the genre and should not be commenting on it. Using berserk is the BEST way to play. Not counting glitches, it's the most effective way to beat Zeromus as fast as possible at the lowest possible level.
> I mean be serious, did you actually spend turns in random encounters casting that and then killing them or did you just kill them?
Yes, obviously I did.
Consider for example trapped chest with the Ogre axe. It's 4 mad ogres. They hit very hard and have extreme magic defense. At normal levels, they'll also likely take a 2-3 hits each to kill. You can spend 6 MP casting size on Rosa's first turn. They can no longer deal any meaningful damage, while everyone in the party can now deal big damage against them and end the fight quickly. Or, you can just fight and heal in which case you'll be blowing a bunch of time and MP healing all the damage they dish out. The fight will take a lot longer because you have to grind down each one's health through their defenses. Or you can use Rydia's Mist Dragon, which will probably take at least 2 if not 3 casts along with melee damage to clear the battle, which means 40-60 MP cost (vs 6MP for using size).
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>>3914482
Berserk is literally a status effect that makes you always hit attack. How the fuck is this not attack and healing?
>fundamentally don't understand the genre
Old FF is literally the most basic aspects of the tabletop rpgs that defined the genre, your own fucking point is just another point into proving that.
>Consider for example trapped chest with the Ogre axe
Not saying this isn’t a fair example but my point is that the game isn’t exactly brimming with examples like this, moreover you are not forced in any way to use the most efficient strategy to the point that the average player likely wont try to.
Iam gonna use a monster chest example myself from trails 1st. Basically every monster chest is a grueling boss fight in nightmare mode that requires you to have joshua on at delay and steal bonus duty and someone abusing sylphen wing for the eva boost and earth guard/wall or you die, in other words it isn’t just about churning out damage every turn. Ailment abuse is also extremely relevant on any of these. Even regular encounters feel like this when you’re at level with the enemy and boss fights are brutal especially since they can just activate a mode to clear ailments and get more turns for free.
More examples, EO or 7th dragon games, they are about mitigating damage or abusing ailments to shut down enemies to the point where you will have characters dedicated entirely to this, you also have characters dedicated to drawing aggro and in some of those games you can even make evasion tanks like Ninjas in FF11.
Games like old FF are simple mechanically easy rpgs like Golden sun and thats fine they don’t even have difficulty modes, my intent was never to criticize them only to show that other anon had a point and I don’t think he was criticizing them either only defending another game.
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>>3914511
>basically every monster chest is a grueling fight
Trails as a franchise is only hard in the 1st chapter of their respective games and the moment you get access to shit like Earth Wall, Evade Stacking and Ark Feather, that's GG.
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>>3914567
>ailments break ff2 in half
Yeah if you grind the toad spell
>>3914568
Its not as “gg” more that its just downright necessary and combat is balanced around it. Its definitely harder to deal with than the typical old ff game. I actually kinda like it. In this video you can see how the guy uses schera as a tank by keeping everyone separate at least at the start. But yes pretty much every hard encounter can be summed up to keep earth guard up, keep sylphen wing up, delay when possible and deal damage/debuff/buff when possible. Mitigation is always the priority though (as it should be, whats the point of even having so many defensive buffs if you never have to actually use them).
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iW5-xN9F2TY
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>>3914574
>if you grind the toad spell
There's no need to grind for anything in FF2 but I'm sure you were fed decades of bullshit that you now parrot as the truth.
As long as you actively make an effort to use the spells while playing the game normally, they'll naturally level up over the course of the game.
You also forgot the existence of shit like Teleport, Warp, Break and so forth. Teleport and Warp are obtained fairly early in the game and act as instant death spells when used in battle, so its easy to raise them up.
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>>3914578
>theres no grinding in ff2
Okay so how long of actively using the toad spell with a low success rate until it actually becomes an efficient random encounter finisher? How effective is that compared to grinding your other offensive magic, healing or weapons and will toad work against all the bosses?
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>>3914578
First of all, every single time ff2 was mentioned it was actively also said that you spam buff stacking in this game during bosses and actively ruled out as an exception considering how different that game is to the rest.
Second of all, every single one of those spells has a low success rate at first and you only need to get teleport and warp to a specific level before it starts having out
Of battle utility. Sure you don’t need to grind in ff2 but you certainly need to grind spells like teleport and warp with a low success rate to no success rate before they actually become reliable.
Third of all, ff2 is one of my favorite ff’s, especially soul of rebirth and you absolutely grind in it if you want any sort of reasonable levels on any of your magic. Maybe you don’t grind in it if you dedicate two characters to doing nothing for a while after you get toad or teleport or whatever other spell you’re trying to shill.
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>>3914579
>>3914586
There's no need to grind in FF2 because the enemies with higher battle ranks (i.e faster/easier exp gain for higher level abilities) are located later on in the game.
You're expect to simply cast the spells while playing the game normally and you'll naturally get your core spells at appropriate skill levels at that point in the game. Not sitting there, spamming the same spell 50 times in one fight and be surprised when you only went from Level 1 to 2.
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>>3914586
Ailment Success rates are modified by gear (in most versions), your spirit/intelligence, spell level (each additional level gives it an extra chance to hit) and whether or not you're attempting to multitarget it. There's of course resists but that's a given. If you try to make everyone into hybrids, its going to take forever to get anything done. FF2 heavily rewards specialization, especially in the older releases.
Furthermore, it does this thing where the largest amount of spell exp you get is on the first cast. Its actually better to just cast all of your spells or at least all of the ones you want to raise at least once instead of using the same spell 3x.
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>>3914511
>Games like old FF are simple mechanically easy rpgs like Golden sun and thats fine they don’t even have difficulty modes, my intent was never to criticize them only to show that other anon had a point and I don’t think he was criticizing them either only defending another game.
You keep deflecting people who have given you examples on how rich FF mechanically by keep saying "it's actually simple". If that's not dishonesty and gaslighting I don't know what else to tell you.
And you have the audacity to say I never criticize when it's just pure disrespect. Meanwhile you have done nothing to compare it with your favorite Octopath games that you thought needed actual defending.
Using Etrian Odyssey and 7th dragon is not even an excuse, you are just moving the goalpost everytime when losing the argument.
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>>3904220
Trails writing is embarrassing. Fans confuse worldbuilding with memberberries. It's just endless references, throwbacks and cameos from past games. The worldbuilding is completely inconsistent. Everything's just attributed to adding "orbal" in front of something with no further explanation. Play any kind of Trails drinking game and you would be dead within an hour.
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>>3904653
The funny part is when people say random encounters are inherently bad as if they aren't simply a design chioce. Personally, I never had a problem with them. Even when people say the encounter rate is stupidly high, I'm fine with it. Could encounters oftentimes be more involved or risky, requiring more than just basic attacks or whatever? Yes, but that's another matter altogether.
In a same vein
>The game has so much backtracking!
as if that's an actual con. There are some games that overdo it or where it becomes tedious. But for me no backtracking has become even worse. Makes the game world feel incredibly disconnected.
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>>3914511
>Not saying this isn’t a fair example but my point is that the game isn’t exactly brimming with examples like this,
There are enough to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that your claim about it being a fight&heal game is objectively wrong.
The aforementioned ogres are relatively common enemies up to that point, the trap chest is just 4-pack of them. There's an earlier palette swap where the same strategy is effective.
Stop has a very high success rate, great for dealing with enemies with a dangerous attack, like those Blaster cats (Cuars/etc). Charm works even better on those as they'll suicide themselves. Lots of enemies are vulnerable to charm.
Behemoths in the end game hit very hard, but almost exclusively as counter-attacks. This encourages buffing up with Blink before attacking.
Those blue+white baron guards enemies have counter-attacks that are completely disabled by Mute.
Warlocks in the final dungeon have nasty magic and are also disabled by mute/charm/stop.
And that's JUST FF4, and what I can think of without actually replaying it again.
>moreover you are not forced in any way to use the most efficient strategy
This could not be less relevant. All that matters in context is that the strategies are viable and reasonable to discover and implement on your own (I didn't include speedtroon strats like putting the whole party in critical so that Cecil automatically uses cover on every physical attack, meaning you can keep blink on him to be immune to physical damage).
>Basically every monster chest is a grueling boss fight in nightmare mode
Not everybody wants every single fight to be a grueling ordeal, though.
I'm well aware that there are ways to make buffing and debuffing more sophisticated than what's typically done in Final Fantasy. But adding arbitrarily complex and abstract layers of buff-debuff rock-paper-scissors minigames on top of your combat doesn't necessarily make for a better (or frankly, even more challenging) game as a whole.
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>>3917105
Trailsfags and self-awareness don't go together. I don't have to name you shit and no one else has to for that matter since you already made it clear that you are more interested in delivering "le epic beatdown" on people who'd name any jrpg. Debating anything with you is pointless, simple as.
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>>3917240
what goalpost have I moved schizo
>>3917310
>trails is bad
>okay post something you consider good and we'll compare
>no you only want to prove me wrong
Why yes, that's how arguments work, but being the massive vagina that you are, you are scared to even name anything. God forbid I'll say something bad about your game. Let's just shit on trails worldbuilding like we play games with better worldbuilding but when challenged you can't name anything, pussy.
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>>3917924
I haven't played trails, but your logic is correct here. The other anon should "post up" and name a jrpg with better worldbuulding if he believes trails is dogshit. I've only played a few jrps, fewer with what I would call good worldbuilding, trails looks interesting, I'm interested to see this conversation play out between you two if that other anon will participate.
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falcom general is fucking useless but is nightmare difficulty okay for a first time trails in the sky 1st chapter player? I've been playing a lot of jrpgs so I'm sorta used to the whole "group mobs up"/stack buffs/debuffs, etc"
The only real question I had is why would you even turn based battle on random encounters when real time deals more damage bonking them and less damage when they use moves on you.
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>>3920073
Nightmare on Sky 1st is only hard at the beginning and it mellows out to a decent challenge. However there are points where it's way too easy for what it should be like during a certain boss that's almost unbeatable in the original (because it's a forced loss) Play the original, if this is your first trails game. It's better.
Also if you stun mobs in the overworld they skip their turns in turn-based so it's child's play to clean up. And it's faster. You're wasting your time in real-time.
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>>3920088
aw man i was about to thank you and listen to your advice until you said this shit
>Play the original, if this is your first trails game. It's better.
now I don't trust a single word you posted you stupid faggot little cocksucker
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>>3904280
>the level of detail & prose that Trails had
The problem with text in Trails is that it's quantity over quality. They take simple worldbuilding concepts and string them out over so much playtime and dialogue that it makes them out to be more than they really are, and tiresome/predictable to anyone who isn't an illiterate dolt.
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