Thread #97854808
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Breaching the Bastion edition
>Resources:
WFB: https://pastebin.com/qVGrgwwh
WM: https://pastebin.com/EsDAgeba
WFRP: https://pastebin.com/inbyBsR6
Novels: https://pastebin.com/PFqPDr0H
>TOW:
https://gofile.io/d/fxFgXS
https://www.warhammer-community.com/downloads/warhammer-the-old-world/
>Warhammer Chronicles:
https://files (dot) catbox (dot) moe/0xt777 (dot) zip
>Time of Legends:
https://files (dot) catbox (dot) moe/q46ut6 (dot) zip
>The End Times:
https://files (dot) catbox (dot) moe/j7d0t5 (dot) zip
>Alternative Models:
https://pastebin.com/xPeM9szL
>Previous Thread:
>>97841742
>Thread Question:
Tell us about your last game!
352 RepliesView Thread
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>TQ
I ran a battlemarch game of 750 points with my marauder warband against some mtfs legacy skaven list. It was fun, surprisingly though, he made more stuff on my side on the board route than I ever managed to do to his shit. Also anal beads are a must when you need to focus on playing a tourney, they really distract you from how painful it can be standing up for hours straight.
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>>97854818
Cope
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>>97854808
My last game. It was long time ago, because LGS I played in was closed a month ago, so I doubt I will ever play it again, alas. Unless another LGS (we had two) starts to run TOW games (right now the run only AoS and 40k).
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>>97854808
Played a game of 5th edition about a week ago, vampire counts vs a dwarf & empire alliance fighting for control of a church. The undead claimed victory after 7 turns of fighting, using a dice roll to determine when it ended.
Glory to undeath!
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>>97854877
Kino paint scheme.
>>97854898
How does 5th differ from the other editions? I started in 6th, 5th was very herohammer heavy right?
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>>97854898
>actual terrain
Based
>5th edition
Based
>Undead
Based
BASED.. .SOVL ... KINO
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>>97854936
Thanks.
Yes, 5th ed was a heavy herohammer; to the point units were needed only for "look out sir" roll.
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Progress update. Horses are finished. riders are next
I feel like I hit the mark with tha dark-grey-blueish mane with the orange-brown colour of the horse.
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if im retarded could get a guy at my lgs to teach me how to play over a game
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>>97855167
Looks very good. Keep us updated on the progress.
>>97855193
Yeah, usually the best way is to find the stores discord/social media and ask for an intro game.
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>>97855399
It's not that giants aren't interesting, they already have very fun rules. It's more so that a rank and flank isn't really conducive to a couple of monsters representing an army. Ideally both armies should have ranks and files in a rank n flank system.
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I made a Discord Server to be a hub for Warhammer RPGs, mainly the Green Ronin and FFG ones. Ideally this will become a hub to find players and games.
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>>97856282
Genuinely what is wrong with you. >>97856222
Don’t mind the vitriol. We have a resident troll who’s angry about being a manlet who lashes out at everyone.
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Read Gotrek and Felix thanks
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>6e
>runelord with the anvil, armor/shield and all the good dispelling runes is 505 points
Welp, at least it will be easy for me to expand from 1k to 2k points. Or is he more of a 3k thing?
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>almost finished up painting my VC army
>already thinking of starting on another one
The bane of owning a resin 3D printer.
What's more fun in TOW, chorfs, empire or brets?
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>>97856222
>>97857076
>>97857103
Perrychad has won.
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>>97856440
Growing up is accepting that /tg/ nowadays is just for shitposting and schizo threads. Generals have gone drastically down in quality and usefulness. Even the shitposts are very low effort now.
Even horrible places like blue sky have more active communities that actually get shit done.
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>>97857178
>blue sky have more active communities that actually get shit done
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>>97857178
Nah, it’s just one shitposter who’s able to do this because this place has no moderation whatsoever. But he comes and goes. He’s been very active over Easter weekend, presumably because he has time off work and no family to spend it with, so he shit up this place. But prior to the weekend it was rather peaceful and business as usual.
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>>97857110
Unmitigated kino, I really wanna make an exiles list, just a lost army looking for redemption and hope (and being weirdly forward thinking with gunpowder)
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Transfers done.
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>>97858636
I just happened to be packing away some minis for a game tonight. Cope! Go write your shitty fanfic for your models
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>>97858654
Dark brown, actually. Your next cope? :^)
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>>97858666
It wasn't a thing in 5e, but in 6e there's not a single knight using green heraldry besides of course THE Green Knight. Not sure if the army book actually says anything about it though but the intent is clear enough.
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>>97858615
Unless you've already built and painted a 2k army of an adjacent system like 40k please dont go and buy 2k immediately.
Start with the battalion box or just a single troop box.
Start with empire state troopers or knights and go from there, they are both core.
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>>97858849
>Well I prefer to know what I'm getting into first before I commit a ton of money on a hobby
Which is why you'll just go and immediately buy five hundred dollars of models straight up instead of 70 dollars worth of models and trying that first before spending the remaining 430.
Sounds good brother
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>considering an evil army
>chaos warriors originally for their cool armor, but now beastmen since the ambush thing seems fun and different from other armies
>but if I do that everyone will think I have a rape fetish
You just can't win.
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I have so little time but I build these sweet boys before work this morning.
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>>97859326
are blood sacrifices not worse than rape anymore?
or do lizards get away with them for being rich, cute and hating demons?
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>>97859193
There's one beastanon who has 3d printed femgors painted purple, calls them herd of the wild rose or something similar.
Then theres the beastanon that has a naked peasant woman spread eagled on his battle standard.
Then theres the normal beast anons like me and white skin beast anon
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>>97859355
The four I mentioned (of which one is me)
Then there's the recent ungor poster with forest bases.
There's a guy with red gors but he hasn't posted in a while.
Saw one post a few threads back with the cleanest fucking skin paint job I've ever seen on another ungor.
Probably missing a few.
Feels good to be surrounded by fellow beastieboys
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I can't wait until we get Daemons back. I bet they're gonna be third, after Dark Elfs and Ogres
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>>97858594
Better get used to it, the percentage of women is the hobby is just going to keep going up as more players transition.
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>>97859420
demons are stuck in aos for a way longer term than other legacy factions and tow built the strongest excuse for them being absent around this time period and already went out ot its way to reinforce that by distancing chaos from the gods in their known forms
best you can get are highly customisable and generic profiles for miniatures you're expected to convert and added to a specific army of infamy for chaos
but I imagine you just wanted to post that image, didn't you?
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>>97859438
no genuinely I just scrolled through my Warhammer folder until I saw a Daemon pic.
Also isn't the plotline leading up to the giant Chaos war where Daemons show up in the lore?
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>>97859420
I doubt that. The idea of daemon units sounds kinda absurd, when you think about it. So I imagine they will be summonable as skirmishers some day plus greater daemons, but I doubt they will be back as a faction on their own.
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>>97859474
>Also isn't the plotline leading up to the giant Chaos war where Daemons show up in the lore?
yeah, and also the empire gets its wizard colleges then, but that's the climax of the narrative, who knows how far that is, and in the meanwhile they're setting up the ranges based on their state before that
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>>97859420
I still think the tow/HH team is planning to make undivided ruinstorm demons for the latter and let those playable in tow instead of going back to the color coded ones.
Unless they're allowed to reintroduce the old metal sculpts as units for the hordes of chaos.
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>>97859474
Anon they’re going to stall through the settings plot line as long as they can, it took gw 10 fucking years to finish whatever the Horus heresy was and it’s still not even fully transitioned into the scouring yet. Nevermind whatever the fuck they want to do east of Cathy.
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>>97859098
Play Beastmen, become Beastbro. Been having a blast with them.
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>>97859505
I doubt it, I’m pretty sure the HH/tow team are both fighting between each other too for resource allocation.
Either way the concept of undivided demons are just incredibly fucking lame. Unless they make malice cannon again I don’t see much hope for a new undivided demon line, I don’t even really like their hellbrutes or the HH demons in general. It’s too cartoony despite trying too hard.
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>>97859550
>the HH/tow team are both fighting between each other too for resource allocation
They're the same team as far as I'm aware.
The division is main-gw(40k, aos, warcry, kill team, underworlds, wh quest) and ex-fw(hh, tow, bb, necromunda, imperialis)
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>>97859098
Only freaks here think Beastmen=rape, you'll be fine.
And if you're really worried, just make it clear that you fantasize about being the victim, not the perpetrator.
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So what will/would the stats for their weapon? Hand weapon and handgun? A greatweapon and handgun? Or a new weapon with a special rule, like a +1S in melee but can't use them in the first turn of combat if you stand and shoot?
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Speaking of Kislev, here's my ToW hot take: bears should be a mount option, but only for Boris and Ursun priests. Katarina should get her ice queen sled while everyone else gets horses. If you want something else special maybe make the hussar horses better like bret horses and make them a more expensive option.
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>>97859810
>Or a new weapon with a special rule, like a +1S in melee but can't use them in the first turn of combat if you stand and shoot?
I like that; make it it like a halberd - +1 Strength, and -1 AP - though that might make it too strong.
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>>97859190
>>97859193
Oh yes, I'm here. I fucking suck at painting, but currently have a 18-0-2 win rate, though 3 of those wins were only minor victories.
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Is there any point in playing for a Dark Elves player or should I continue on ignoring this game until they give dark elves a book? Murderous not working on Witch Elves on top of the collateral nerfs they got hit with has killed any motivation I have to come back.
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>>97859981
>show up to the lgs for some casual pickup games
>opponent says he's got some beastmen
>sounds fun, let's see em
>he whips out some unabashed gooner shit
>painted like shitno offense
>proceeds to absolutely demolish you with his half painted coomer models
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>>97856963
Here's the grave guard and skeletons. I love the GG for their toughness but the skellies have a nicer banner, I should rectify that some time...
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>>97856963
>>97860081
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Big lizard chair
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>>97860197
>>97860295
Oh holy shit yeah. Mind if I ask how you did it?
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>>97860327
Use stippling brush (makeup brush if you're cheapskate & don't have one) & blot on in uneven layers of shades of gray, gradually getting lighter up to a medium gray color. After that dry brush on a white gray like ulthuan gray or corax white. People complain about white drybrushing being chalky but in this case it works to our advantage since that's how carved stone looks.
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>>97860456
Yeah sort of a rough spot- I like how the lizard looks, I like how the chair looks, but they just don't mesh that well and my impulse is to adjust whichever's easier to fix so I can avoid burnout & move on to painting other things
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Surely any day now...
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>>97858624
>I LOVE the setting
>but I hate the fluff (the stuff that makes the setting)
This is the kind of person who thought age of sigmar was a good idea.
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>>97858862
>>97858666
>my knights were given the right by the elven king to wear the colour of the fae, as long as we always remember to respect the forest and protect it from corruption
there easy
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>>97859098
Model tits on them and claim you're not a rapist but a furry, easy.
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>>97861278
>small pieces
You're one of the guys who, rather than being like "oh cool there's this rpg that mentions a small village that worships the sea god but they're far inland because their ancestors were pirates who were captured and exiled to the interior 500 years ago" you're like "that's gay plus the peasants would all die if they had to actually pay 90% tithes to the lady or whatever".
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>>97859098
Don't know what you mean.
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>>97861187
I think the issue (besides the whole "its an army where the limitation is what you were doing anyways" thing) is that they didnt really have a strong identity for it:
What is HOD meant to be?
If its the "chaos champions and their retinue" list then have chaos champions unlock chosen units for themselves to join, maybe have the marks that you need to have 1:1 be free (when you purchase a mark for a character, a unit gets it gratis)
If its the "the riders before the storm", with a sort of undivided/darkness motif? Have it be like bret exiles. You dont get ANY marks but in return you get some sort of universal bonuses (fear/furious charge/-1 LD aura/whatever)
If its the "chaos knights" list then remove options like the dragons and focus on giving chaos knights buffs. Give steeds +1WS and ensorcelled weapons and whatnot.
Also dear god fix the dreadglaive, its +10pts to make a generic magic weapon worse (+1S for ASL on the headsmans axe)
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>>97859396
I kick around these threads every now and again. I'm running a Slaaneshi-themed Brayherd for a narrative campaign with some buddies. A big chunk of my shit is WIP, so I don't post much to avoid the shame of showcasing a sea of grey with greenstuff smeared over it.
I might do some mini battle reports in a few months when the campaign games grow bigger than the little skirmishes they are right now. If I don't have time for that, then I'll just throw together some before-and-after shots of the stuff I've worked on.
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>>97861346
I could give you multiple reasons but I sincerely fucking hate Bretonia so I’ll just give you a simple one.
The people who picked green were colorblind and just stuck with it. If you have a whole army of green knights then the king was blind and everyone just followed suit or something.
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>>97861317
I’ll just make up some bullshit order of the greenswood that some of them belong to. It can be like an order of monster slayers for a particular patch of small particularly dark and scary woods
>>97861351
Put my wife down
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>>97861383
No
Kill yourself.
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>>97861403
let me make it appropriate for 6th edition
>this noble family claims humble origins, but it's all just posturing for the jousts, and they actually treat their peasants even worse than normal because "they know how they are"
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>>97861428
Thats fucking retarded. Thats also not what white lion axes are (great weapons Ap-3), youre thinking of swordsmaster swords.
>>97859810
The chaos dwarf fireglaive but worse at shooting.
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>>97859326
>not lizardmen
Correct, because all their raping is done consensually via pheromone stimulation & mind control
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>>97861410
very humble origins
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New player here. I'm trying to build a list of beastmen, is it really not possible to make a list without being forced to take a gor herd? I could have sworn it was possible
===
Big Beasts [1979 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Beastmen Brayherds, Open War
===
++ Characters [496 pts] ++
Doombull [316 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Heavy armour
- General
- Armour of Destiny
- Hell-Forged Axe
Great Bray-Shaman [180 pts]
- Braystaff
- Wizard [Level 4 Wizard]
- On foot
- Daemonology
++ Core Units [541 pts] ++
6 Minotaur Herd [300 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Light armour
- 6x Great weapon
- Bloodkine (champion)
- Standard bearer
3 Razorgor Herd [156 pts]
- Hand weapons (tusks)
- Light armour (calloused hide)
Tuskgor Chariot [85 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Great weapons (Bestigor Crew)
- Cavalry spears (Gor Crew)
++ Special Units [492 pts] ++
3 Dragon Ogres [198 pts]
- Great weapons
- Heavy armour
6 Minotaur Herd [294 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Light armour
- 6x Shield
- Bloodkine (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician
++ Rare Units [450 pts] ++
Cygor [215 pts]
- Hand weapon (claws)
- Hurl attack
- Light armour (calloused hide)
Dragon Ogre Shaggoth [235 pts]
- Great weapon
- Heavy armour
---
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>>97859326
>except HElves
>tfw Asur GigaStacy will never rape you
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>>97861515
it's okay
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>>97861351
All i see is that gap between the torso and the arm
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>>97861534
Yeah that annoyed me too, so I fixed it a couple weeks later, the pics I made are just older.
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>>97861547
I have 600,000 dollars in my 401k, you broke faggot, stop being a little cunt every time someone calls out gw's retarded pricing. It's not the issue of how much money i have but my unwillingness to basically get scalped by a toy company. Faggot.
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>>97861568
Nice.
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>>97861569
You clearly display great maturity and wisdom. If only your reading comprehension were on par. As I already said, if $60 is too much for a Boris MTO for you, then you will likely be priced out of the MTO. Your opinions on the price being too high being the reason you are priced out. You can call it getting scalped, but that won’t change the prices that will likely come.
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I don't know about the rest of the Kislev MTO but I definitely need that Boris.
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>>97861569
Have you seen eBay prices?
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>>97861627
um is this allowed?
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>>97861569
can i hab some emone i dont wanna work i just wanna paint minis
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>>97861351
Imagine you're an Empire greatswordsman on campaign, you've been out of the province and come back, get ambushed by these beasties, and the guy next to you sees that banner, turns absolutely white as a sheet, and goes "…Hilda? T…THAT'S MY WIFE"
Suicide charge is 100% understandable at that point
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>>97855296
>>97855259
Sadly didnt get any work done today because the foid demanded i spend time with her.
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>>97861799
Kislev owns buts norsca since Norsca is everything north of Troll country in the Goromandy
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>>97862030
He's a special character who controls the faction, it's fine, it only becomes a problem when every unit outside of the most basic uses magic ice
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>>97861627
>>97861799
It's funny that they just didn't bother painting it that way and made it silver.
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>>97862156
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>>97861647
Let me preface the words that will make up the rest of my post with the following statement: GW is an awful company and does not deserve your money.
God damn people are jews when it comes to selling miniatures on the second-hand market. It's genuinely incredible how the MTOs GW has been running, with a few exceptions, are better (better does not mean good) deals than what the second-hand market can offer. However, I will say that the reason a lot of models are so expensive on ebay or troll trader is because retards think that them being in a box adds value. It really doesn't! The only advantage a sealed metal model offers is that it's been untouched and you won't have to strip it. New on sprue plastics/resins are a different matter, but charging 2-3x more just because something is still in a shrinkwrapped box is kinda stupid. But people will pay for it, so that's what the market does.
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>>97861504
NTA but its completely fucking ridiculous that they had great weapons to begin with. Look at these axes; they're hand weapons. You might generously call them +1S but a great weapon is just silly.
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>>97861627
>>97861647
I know I was memeing a few threads ago about my Boris but I was genuinely so lucky dad got it for me as an easter gift back in the day. I tucked it away as an aspirational “when I’m good enough a painter” reward. Same with the Kislev cav boxes I posted and a boyar I haven’t posted yet. Great faction like the chorfs that needs to be unsquatted.
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>>97859193
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>>97858609
>>97858666
I don't really care about lore when painting my knights personally.
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>tfw glue the magnets on the wrong way and they repel each other
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So how does playing Kislev work like in the 6th edition? Can you play it as your primary army and maybe ally in a cannon or something, or do you need to take them as allies?
>print out 3rd party Kislev
>field them using a small Empire army as the base and then ally in the hussars and Katarina
Thoughts?
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>>97863504
They were written to be an ally to an Empire army, but if you want to run a lot of Kossars instead of State Troops, you can have Kislev be the main army and ally in some Empire stuff like a cannon or two.
Can run Bear Cavalry if you want to hobby them, just use the Demigryph statblock from 8th.
ALso, I agree with >>97862572 that the axes shouldn't count as great weapons. Maybe something like Wolf Hammers that Teutogen Guard use. (+2 Strength on charge, otherwise treat like Halberds)
Incidentally, if you ever wanted to run Armoured Kossars, the Teutogen Guard rules should be a good match.
Just sayin' cause Kislev has what? Four units total and one generic hero, plus Katarin and Boris.
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>>97863499
alright, shit this dude is perfectly fucking magnetized now i can go to bed. the tail feels like its gonna snap off in the lightest of breezes though…
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>>97860089
>>97860081
Very cool.
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>>97856406
Total War and Old World baby here, I thoroughly enjoyed the Gotrek and Felix books a lot. I've read, reread, listened, and relistened to the books a lot these past 5 years. I can safely say that most of them are good, mainly the early King books (though I did like Vampireslayer a ton) and the late Nathan Long books were the best of the whole series. They're just fun adventure books altogether. Fun, easy to follow action, I love Felix as a character through most of it (being pretty whiny in his thoughts and seems like a coward in his thoughts but still does great things with his actions), and most of the side cast are wonderful, Malakai is such a joy and it was fun trying to read scottish which I didn't understand until I listened to the audiobook. Most of my problems with the King books was the bickering between Ulrika and Felix in Dragon, Beast, and some parts of Vampireslayer. Dragonslayer is top 3 but the feuding keeps it from being on top with Skaven and Daemonslayer. The Nathan Long books were kind of a drag with Orc and Manslayer, but Elfslayer picks it up. Shamanslayer and Zombieslayer are among my favorites as well. The End Times books, I don't know what it is with David Guymer but reading and listening to his writing is like dragging myself through a blizzard in Kislev with occasional warmth. He also made Felix and Ulrika just super unlikeable. I get Felix can come off as a whiny bitch at times, but at least outwardly we know he's more of a man than he lets on. Now he's just really pathetic after just one year of not being a vagrant. I also just didn't give a fuck about most moments where it changes to random POV characters like the kislevites that meet Gotrek, or the Ostermark generals, or Helbrass, or the Chaos Lord in Slayer, etc. Maybe if it was another write they could be interesting but David just makes them really boring. Still recommend reading them because if you're already into the series, may as well see it to the end.
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I just ordered my first high elves not really sure what I'm doing
I got a dragon, sea guard and silverhelms
Did I fuck up? Reading stuff online it seems high elves are a bit shit but good enough for casual games? My lgs is doing 1k and 1.5k games should be fun
I like infantry and cavalry so would eventually want one unit of each, especially phoenix guard
Is the merwyrm ok?
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>>97864261
Tell me about it.
>>97864262
Why would you buy into high elves
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>>97864269
>Why would you buy into high elves
White man's army. Like how beastmen appeal to brown rapists.
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>>97861351
>>97862848
So that's what Morgiana was up to lately.
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>>97864471
wha? errr you need 2 magnets to stick together….idgi…
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Nearly done with these five Bestigors
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>>97864262
>Did I fuck up? Reading stuff online it seems high elves are a bit shit but good enough for casual games?
Stop reading online discussions about game balance or meta. Build the army you want to proudly field and play. Dont care about winrates or optimal stuff. You don't want to end up as the guy bringing unpainted 3Dprinted models of what is currently mathematically the most optimal unit to a game of toy soldiers.
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>>97864717
Who knows maybe they will be the best unit in the next game. Highly possible that elves in general will get a rework if they add the so much rumoured dark elves.
The elves have the problem of paying elite cost for pretty squishy units that don't hit particularly hard. The higher initiative don't really do much. Lothern seaguard are pretty good though. I like the naval discpiple rule.
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>>97865024
Yeah they are really nice. Bought the dead shrubs recently and trying them out for more variation on my spruce/fir woodland bases to mix up in between the ferns and the mushrooms as seen on the rest of my minis, pic related as an example
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Anybody has an idea who this is? He looks like a GW dwarf model, but looking at their older photos I can't find an engineer or cannon loader looking like him.
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>>97865082
erhmm they dont stick to that knight in the slightest. hes an old reiksguard/“heroic knight of the empire w/ lance” from the 90s. idk what exactly hes composed of (pewter?) but its not magnetic my nigga
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>>>>97865462
ohhhhhhhhhhhhh your smart!!! lol
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>>97865462
>and something like a nailhead on the other
Just use another magnet at that point
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questing knight!
only 8 left to paint
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>>97864307
>average HE player
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>>97865734
Northern europe.
Kinda annoyed because it was just getting close to primer territory then it got just a few degrees too cold again.
If it wasn't white primer I might risk it but i've already stripped these of paint once.
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>>97865662
better with decals and basing
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>>97866158
get lost you clown
>>97866151
a thane, runesmith, warriors, canon and gyrocopter are a good starting point for 1000pts, add a unit or two of fancier stuff maybe ?
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>>97866600
The WoC box is great value with great sculpts, just sucks that the warriors are pretty bad this edition. But you can say the same for the Wood Elf box so. I think the helf box is just special for being full of ancient sculpts that don't hold up. It's uniquely bad. People shit on the greenskin one, but the sculpts inside that one hold up way better and orcs are slept on.
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>>97866737
Chaos Warriors as Chosen absolutely, why not? Empire swordsmen wouldn't work because they aren't wearing enough armor and don't have the correct weapons. Spearmen don't have halberds or the correct outfit, and skeleton warriors are too basic to be tomb guard. Longbeards are just a veteran unit, they don't have a specific uniform. It's like using state troops as veterans, which is what you're supposed to do.
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>>97866151
Well, at 1k you dont have many points. So I would go with some warriors or longbeards, a cannon, a thane, maybe a runesmith and then just more bodies for the rest (leaving room for the empire contingent).
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>>97867009
I agree on the reavers and chariots. But I feel like sea guard are worse than archers/spearmen (not as models, but as a "core"), theyre more niche.
Ideally I would see something like:
30 spearmen
10 reavers
1 chariot
10/20 archers
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NEW ARABY NEW ARABY ANNOUNCED
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>>97865499
the point is that two magnets want to be in a very specific position, so if you don't line them up proeprly they will sit funny or rattle (or repel if you are retarded enough), if you use one magnet and metal you don't have that problem
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>>97867694
>bonus points if they're nurgly
trench crusade brought a number of printfag sellers to have plague hounds of some kind in their offers
wolf rat recasts and gw dire wolves would also make for good nurglish dogs
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>>97868374
if you dont mind the more eccentric aos versions, the gobapalooza is essentially 5 shaman characters in one box. good bang for your buck as far as characters go, and the models are a lot of fun but might be a bit out there if you are trying for a strictly warhammer fantasy aesthetic
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>>97868444
It would but I will push back and say the TOW ng command is better because you get a BSB AND a character on Giant Squig, which is very good. Also I love the shaman sculpt but that's just me
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any tips for converting a giant chaos spawn for my chaos warriors? I've heard this guy is good for it
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